Subaru Crew - Future Models II

rsholland · November 2001

or so it's been rumored, is going to be much more costly than the current model. It may be close to six figures. YIKES!

Mike, start saving those pennys now.

Bob

rsholland · November 2001

Mike, you know as much as I do...

Bob

tincup47 · November 2001

Air suspension on Range Rover is an automatic system with manual override. It utilizes air bladders at all four corners, on-board compressor with height sensors and has a dedicated ECU to control it. It is a very sophisticated system that can recognise when you need additional height to free the vehicle from a high centerd condition.

rsholland · November 2001

Subaru take another stab at an adjustable air suspension for the Forester, Outback and BRAT. Hopefully, with their past experience, and with the latest technology and production methods, they can produce a good reliable unit, that won't be priced out of reach.

I do think, for an IFS/IRS to really work off-road, this may be the best solution to the articulation/suspension travel question that has haunted off-road IFS/IRS systems in the past.

If the RR system proves to be a winner off road, then it's only a matter of time before less costly air-units make their way into mainstream brands. After all, almost all high-tech stuff first shows up on the high-end brands, and then eventually trickles down to lesser brands.

Bob

paisan · November 2001

6-figures ouch, I'll go for the TLC before that.

Haaa. That is the same exact type system that the XT6 had.

ECU was mounted under the driver's seat, onboard compressor in the driver's side fender. Sensors to detect the height of the vehicle above the road. Above 50mph, it would drop it down, slower speeds would have it raised. On the canadian models you could manually adjust it for additional clearance.

Are there any traditional springs/shocks in the vehicle? If not, I'll pass thank you, been there, done that.

-mike

ateixeira · November 2001

You are right, I can't afford the cost of a RR! Heck, I probably can't even afford the air bladders alone!

That's hilarious, though. Imagine you high center and get stuck. All of the sudden, "Beam me up, Scotty", and it frees itself! Neat.

I wonder if the bladders are still natural rubber. Synthetic materials last longer and can resist corrosion when in contact with solvents. Audi also emulated the XT6 with the allroad quattro (lower case is theirs).

-juice

jregen7243 · November 2001

I don't know if Land Rover has improved their quality in the last 3 years, but my cousin had a 1998 Discovery, and it was the biggest piece of garbage. Everything and anything went wrong with it. It was in for warranty repairs at least once a month after the 1st year, and he was stranded 4 or 5 times on major highways because of engine problems. As you can expect, he was a very happy person when the lease was up.

Jon

ateixeira · November 2001

Ford gave them quite an infusion of cash. In fact, wasn't Naser criticized for focusing too much on PAG (Premiere Auto Group)? I'm sure they are improving.

-juice

qbrozen · November 2001

I thought the Freelander DID have low range. I remember watching a test drive on Speedvision back before it was brought to the U.S. They said it had low range. Heck, they were plowing through over 2 feet of soft mud with the thing. I was VERY impressed.

Did they remove that before bringing it here??

ateixeira · November 2001

Edmunds' write up says no low range.

I find it interesting because it basically has the same AWD setup that my Forester has, plus traction control and HDC.

-juice

rsholland · November 2001

Can you elaborate a bit on the high-to-low, shift-on-the-fly transfer case? I was always under the impression you couldn't do this, assuming you had a steep gear reduction in low range, for fear of damaging something. That's why with most high-to-low transfer case that I'm aware of, you need to come to a complete stop before engaging low range. There may(?) be couple of units out there that will allow you to shift into low range at 1 or 2 mph, but that's it.

Do you know what the Range Rover use an even steeper gear reduction? If so, how, besides having a synchro between high and low range, are they able to do this without damage? What's the maximum speed you can downshift from high to low range?

Bob

rsholland · November 2001

Chuck says it does have a low range, with shift-on-the-fly between high and low. See post #3942.

Bob

ateixeira · November 2001

I'm was talking about the Freelander. I has AWD and no low range, per Edmunds at least.

They're cute, but once you put the stuff I'd want on them, they're a tad pricey for their size.

-juice

barresa62 · November 2001

Sounds to me that you really wouldn't gain much w/the Freelander over your Forester except a higher car payment. :-)

I sat in the Freelander at the Seattle Autoshow last Sat. Other than the pukey orange color(seems to be the rage this year on a lot of cars) it was pretty nice but nothing outstanding. I think it will do more for Landrover than adding anything exceptional to the small SUV crop available here in the States.

Stephen

ateixeira · November 2001

Well, I would have both, if that were the case.

I would actually consider a 2003 Forester, or especially a 2004 Forester Turbo, if the 626 lasts that long.

-juice

tincup47 · November 2001

Has never had low range, even in Europe. Items the Freelander has that the Forester doesn't include Electronic Traction Control, 5 speed Auto trans with manual shifting, Heated Windscreen, 16" wheels standard, 17" wheels optional.
I do believe the Forester is an exceptional vehicle, heck I own one.

ateixeira · November 2001

I would love to see traction control offered on the next Forester. More gear ratios, too.

They do have a heated windshield standard on the S models, though. Isn't that the same basic thing?

They aren't really competitors, though. I'm sure the Land Rover will have wonderful wood and leather and the cache a Subaru can't match (for now).

-juice

paisan · November 2001

I believe if you have 3 open diffs you can do this? Like the ML series? WHere is Drew when we need him. Drew if you are lurking under an assumed name, step right in here!

-mike

tincup47 · November 2001

They haven't released technical details about the Transfer box yet, so I can't answer with specifics. But I have heard that there are a lot more ECU's on this RR than on the current model, so I suspect that there are solonoids snd motors controlling the range functions.

tincup47 · November 2001

The heated area on the Forester windscreen is just at the bottom where the wipers rest, on the Freelander the whole screen is heated.

ateixeira · November 2001

Hey, I stand corrected!

I have a fancy high-tech feature on mine called "heat". Crank it up on defrost and get out and scrape!

)

Actually, I'm fortunate to park in a car port at home and a garage at work, so Sandy rarely gets exposed.

-juice

bluesubie · November 2001

Jon, you took the words right outta my mouth!

A good friend of mine leased a Disco II a few years ago. He didn't tell me until afterwards because he didn't want to hear me preach Subaru (I don't blame him ;-)). Less than a week after he got it, he and his family were left stranded by the road in snowy Vermont in the middle of winter. A problem traced to the stability control that later led to a recall. Any improvement over the years Chuck?

Don't more Disco's go off-road than RR's?

Scooby's have hill descent control. It's called lower gears. :-D

Dennis

hondafriek · November 2001

It will take many years to excise the demons from R.R. it requires an attitude change on the part of the people who are building them.

It was this crappy attitude that led to demise of the rover group, quality was in the crapper.

They are pretty expensive when stacked up against the forester. IMHO.anyway.

Cheers Pat.

tincup47 · November 2001

I'm glad you are such an expert on the problems in my company. It had been my experience that lack of funds, and a lack of knowledge of the American market, not attitude was the main problem.

ateixeira · November 2001

My hill descent control is my brake pedal. :-)

I remember Land Rover basically owned the market for UN-Spec cars my dad used to order for his fleets in Suriname and Belize. They swapped to Toyota because those were more reliable, though. I think they are so small that they needed a parent company to share resources with in order to survive in a cut-throat industry.

Manufacturers in general need to design fault-tolerant systems. I mean, look at computers. They never fail, and *&# $%*#^$# #$ #$(*#$ #$ #$(*#$ #$ #$(*#$|#$# $# $)(*#$

;-)

-juice

rsholland · November 2001

as a "poor man's Freelander."

Bob

rsholland · November 2001

Chuck, what's the braked/unbraked towing capacity of the Freelander? Does it offer a separate towing package as an option?

Bob

paisan · November 2001

Isn't the Freelander a 2-door? I'd say it's more like an Amigo (soft top on the freelander?) than a forester. I find the forester to be a smaller version of my trooper.

-mike

rsholland · November 2001

here in the States. Overseas it's available in both 2 and 4-door.

Bob

paisan · November 2001

Yeah the only ones I saw were coupes.

-mike

rsholland · November 2001

You were at the NY Auto Show, weren't you? They had an American-spec Freelander on display there.

Bob

tincup47 · November 2001

Of course I knew you would ask.

trailers w/o brakes 1,650 lbs
trailers w brakes 2,500 lbs

rsholland · November 2001

Still better than a Subie...

Bob

tincup47 · November 2001

The nice thing about Hill Descent Control is that you only have to conentrate on steering down the hill. Also you won't lock up the brakes inadvertantly which would result in lack of steering ability. I have driven Discovereys and Freelanders with this system, and it is surprising how much less eventful steep downhill descents become. HDC also works in reverse for when you have to back down a hill.

kate5000 · November 2001

is the "smart man's", er, woman's Freelander. Who needs that bloody poor quality from the blokes in Landrover anyway?

tincup47 · November 2001

I can take your criticizing Ford as you've owned one.

paisan · November 2001

on the Freelander or the RR? If it's the RR that's pretty bad. I like the idea of that downhill system, that is the only downside right now with an AT on the trail. It lacks the very low gearing that a MT has for steep decents. Usually what I do is use 4wd Lo combined with some hand brake action to keep my downhill decent slowed, yet retain steering.

-mike

rsholland · November 2001

Hill Descent Control is great for going "down" steep hills. However, it doesn't do a thing for going "up" a steep hill. Still need low range gearing for that, which the Freelander doesn't have, unfortunately.

Bob

pattim3 · November 2001

soon! I'll post information the second I have it. However, keep your eye on Subaru.com. They will be having micro sites for both vehicles around the same time (or a bit sooner) as the launch.

I'll keep you in the loop! I know that they tried to incoporate some of the Edmunds "wishes" in the Forester. I just don't know which things though.

Patti

rsholland · November 2001

I wonder if they're going to be releasing info on the new Forester early, in light of the new CRV, which is hitting the streets right about now? It certainly would make sense to do so. That way, with some concrete "teaser info," they should be able to keep those in the Subaru camp, who might otherwise be tempted to switch...

Bob

bluesubie · November 2001

Hope they solved the switchback safety issue. And if it uses the H6, hopefully they will have tweaked the h.p. a bit.

Dennis

locke2c · November 2001

they probably did, Dennis... considering the Chevy Avalanche is sitting in showrooms right now with a similar system.

here's to hoping the Brat isn't nearly as ugly! how could it be, hehe

-Colin

hondafriek · November 2001

Come on now lad, just because you work for the company does not mean you walk around with rose coloured specs.

Land Rover have been and still are beset with quality control problems, when I say it will take an attitude change thats what needs to happen before you will have a quality product.

Throwing large infusions of cash at the problem will not do it, BMW almost went broke trying to go the same route with Rover, and it was not lack of cash that did them in, it was years of piss poor quality.

I lived in Ireland for half my life and I speak from a consumer point of view I experienced it first hand.

Cheers Pat.

barresa62 · November 2001

I have to agree w/Pat. I am routing for Landrover but it's poor qualtiy reputation did not happen in vaccuum and will not change overnight.

Stephen

rsholland · November 2001

Honda's made a big leap forward with this model. It's not perfect, but is, at the moment, equal to or better than the current Forester in all major areas.

Likes:

 Feels much like the Forester on the highway, in terms of power and comfort.

 Much more refined than previous model.

 Loved the hand brake, auto gear shift fine, once you get used to it.

 Adjustable for/aft split rear seat. Although, I would probably keep it in its most rearward position. If you move it forward, you really sacrifice legroom. This would come in handy if you had a large item in the trunk, and needed to move the seat forward because of space.

 Interior is very well thought out.

 Towing is 1500 pounds, with or without trailer brakes.

 Auto up/down driver's window, which goes up and down very fast.

 Huge cargo area.

 Has green cruise control engaged light.

 $22,700 for EX automatic. This includes an average-sized moonroof.

Dislikes:

 Want more power still.

 Roof rack cross bars an option. I don't know rack capacity.

 No heated outside mirrors.

 Fixed intermittent front wiper, no variable speed feature. 1-speed rear wiper.

 Headroom marginal for such a tall vehicle. If it had a large moonroof, like the Forester, it could be problem for rear seat passengers.

 No front ash tray.

 Rear cargo cover is an option, and not standard. It is unique, in that it appears to retract both front and rear. It has a feature that allows for the reclinging split rear seatwhich is good.

 Forester still feels a bit sportier in terms of handling.

Verdict:

Until the new Forester arrives, this is IMO, the new king of the hill.

Patti- better get that new '03 Forester info out there ASAP!

Bob

hondafriek · November 2001

Ashtrays are going the way of the dinasoar, in Canada some models are even offering them as an option

IMHO. this is a move forward.

Cheers Pat.

armac13 · November 2001

were an option on my '01 Forester! I quit smoking to buy the car (a deal I made with myself) so I did not take that option. ;~)

Ross

hondafriek · November 2001

I refuse to get in a car with a smoker,apart from the fact that I have asthma, I hate getting out and smelling tlike I was living in an ashtray.

You can never get the smell out either, about six years ago I bought a used Honda Accord, it had low milage was absolutely mint no scratchs or dings,truly showroom condition.

The downside was it had belonged to a smoker,part of the purchase agreement was that the dealer get the smell out,
he did for about a month then it returned, I had it professionally valeted and detailed twice myself, I finished up selling it just could not get the smell out.

Cheers Pat.

paisan · November 2001

Also their crappy AWD system can't help it any.

-mike

tincup47 · November 2001

went to Rover Group, but very little of that went to Land Rover. The assembly plant at Solihull was still stuck in the 50's. Money leads to having the resources to test and develop quality designs, improve manufacturing facilities, and have the leverage to make suppliers meet your specs, not vice-versa. I am the last to say that we have vehicles that do not have quality issues, but most of those have been seeing huge improvements in the last model year. I do believe the desire to build first class vehicles has always been there, but the resources have been sorely lacking. July 1, 2001 marked the first time in Land Rover's history that they had excecutives that could concentrate solely on Land Rover, not Rover Group.

Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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