I haven't found hill climbing to be a problem with Freelander, you just have to be more agressive with the throttle and let the traction control do it's job. It's surprising how steep a hill it will climb.
I agree. I hadn't smoked in my home for many years, spending considerable time outside in our mild Vancouver winters. :~) Not wanting my beautiful new Subaru to smell (permanently) like an ashtray was the final excuse I needed to quit after over 30 years on the weed. It will be 18 months in two weeks, in part thanks to Rufus. I had my Golf professionally done before trading it in, but I'm sure the smell came back. :-(
I can't help but think the Freelander would be a better off-roader if it had a low range. As you say, it may work for most situations as is, but it would have to be even better if it also had an extra set of lower gears to choose from.
I would like to see Nav system on the Outback. I guess GM is pushing its Onstar crap which I don't like........
If Subaru VDC has navigation system instead of Onstar crap, it will compete better with Volvo, vw & audi wagons......none of them have navigation system.
Why wait till one is 'fixed' in the car at at least $2k? Get a Garmin Street Pilot III for 1/2 the $$$$. It's portable and mounts at eye-level opposed to down and right of driver. What good is a 5" screen when you could barely look down while you're driving. Hmm.. Patti, maybe SoA should workout something with Garmin (it's outdoor activity related) like a coupon good for $200 off. :-)
Although, I've yet to hear from a CRV owner complain about the RT4WD that's Honda uses. The owners seem satisfied. It gets them through the snow just fine, and that's all they care about.
The Freelander has been the best selling SUV in Europe, so let's give it a fair chance. I think they have loads of character so I can allow a little leeway, though not a lot.
Patti: yes, please, keep offering us "teaser" info on the new models, including the BRAT and Forester.
Bob: you already drove a CR-V? I thought they arrived today.
A few more cons: packaging (ABS with EX model only), no VSA or Navi that exist in Japan, no painted bumpers, no true top-line model (SE), feels like FWD, and the shortest powertrain warranty in the industry with no roadside assistance either.
Still, it looks to be a big improvement, and most owners won't notice or care about those negatives.
Interesting post, Pat. I myself worship Honda for their quality - but as long as they don't build an *exciting* car (a.o.t. just high-quality) I'll stick with Subie.
Have any good reading to suggest regarding Honda's manufacturing practices that are behind their quality results?
The new CRVs are here, and I drove one Saturday. I also stopped by another couple of dealers on Sunday. The dealer in Clarksville (that I mentioned to you) is adding a $700 ADM to all CRVs and Odysseys, so I would stay away from them.
It's my sense that CRV customers are more "utility-oriented" than Forester customers, who seem to be a a bit more more "fun" oriented. The CRV excels at utility, much more so than the Forester. And... the price is perfect, assuming you can get one without any ADM.
As I said, it's not perfect, but Honda really has closed the gap between the current Forester and the new CRV. I hope (expect!) the new '03 Forester will again widen the gap. Until then, IMO, the CRV has the edge.
We bought a new Accord'EX in 1997, and that car was anything but quality. About $1000 spent on after-warranty repairs (car has <60K on it), plus numerous under-warranty repairs.
There was someone on this board (not this thread, but somewhere else), with a handle alexp. He said he worked in automotive industry, in particular for a company that supplied parts to many car manufacturers. He said, Honda's losing its quality touch, although still way ahead of domestics. In terms of quality, his recommendation was to buy Japanese-built Toyotas, Subarus (both Japanese-built and from Indiana), Isuzu (Japanese-built Troopers), some of Mitsu lines.
Well, I found the problem with the 626 and it looks like a cheap fix, so for now we're no longer actively shopping.
I agree that the new CR-V is about a match for the Forester. That's saying a lot, coming from me. Just remember, the new Forester is just around the corner, though.
There is really no secret to Honda or Toyota or Subaru quality, for that matter. all Japanese manufacturers employ the same assembley practice,s,and that is everybody involved in the assembly of the car, is reponsible for quality control, gives everyone a feeling of pride in a quality product.
Domestic manufacturers on the other hand only pull cars at random and submit them to quality control checks, this is why you have keep dragging domestic cars back to the dealers to repair faults that should not have been there in the first place.
Kate I am sorry to hear you so many problems with your Accord, but all car makers not only Honda occasional turn out a lemon.
I have owned 2 Civics, and 6 Accords two were new and the rest were used three of them were bought with very high milage and I can honestly say every one of them was a fabulous car.
One in Particular was an 83 Accord hatchback which I sold with well over 200,000 miles and my wife literally cried to see it go.
Holy cow, Fitz has them for $5k under invoice. That's a massive rebate. $22,692 well equipped, $25,105 pretty loaded, but no models with that sky roof.
Were I to throw out the car-based and mileage criteria, it's a heck of a value. They actually cost a bit less than Axioms do.
Don't mean to get your hopes up, though. If we get a massive vehicle, it'll be a minivan. Right now, her 626 at $0 down $0 per month sounds like the best deal. ;-)
The fact they have such massive rebates (almost every year) is the main reason the Trooper's replacement will be heavily GM based. Profit on Troopers has become non-existant, hence no more Trooper.
That is weird. There is the S, LS, and Limited. Limiteds have the moonroof std. 99.9% of the LS models I've ever seen have the roof installed, and the S doesn't have it as an option. Within each trim, there is aprox. no options (except that roof on the LS).
Yep the Trooper has been discounted, due to poor sales. I'm so overcome with joy that we are getting the Envoy based Asscendor, afterall there was just another recall on the transmission this time on the Envoy/Trailblazer!
Heed my warning fellow GMers. GM will suck FHI dry, it't their MO.
No wonder he likes big cars. Now I know what you meant by "paisan-sized"!
Fitz had only 4 Troopas, two S and two LS, none with the air lift roof.
What, are you concerned about a silly little collapsing suspension? ;-)
By the time the Ascendor comes out, GM would have worked out all the bugs. If Isuzu can redo the interior and restyle it, I really do think it has potential.
It was mentioned that the Odyssey and MDX are among the hottest cars on the market. I happened to stop by an Acura dealer yesterday in hopes of getting new MDX brochure, and the salesman told me that they are now taking MDX orders for next May! BTW, MDX towing is now at 5000 pounds with no restrictions for '02.
Once that plant is up and running at full capacity, that should mean the vehicles will be more readily available—and hopefully that will mean no more long waits or ADMs, for both the Odyssey or MDX.
Bob: interesting they said people were buying because of "perceived quality". I just got my CR Buyer's Guide and the Odyssey only get an "average" reliability rating, as does the new Civic. The previous generations were actually more reliable. Also, the '99 Odyssey is listed as a reliability risk among used cars, a rare thing for Honda.
On the threads here, it seems trannies were weak on the 99s, but they're better now. The 2002 just got a 5 speed, so I wonder if that's any better (or worse)?
Still, the Sienna and MPV carry a wide advantage in this area, and it's interesting because the MPV uses some Ford bits. Both also carry much better warranties.
Given this, the wait lists are amazing. I think it's purely based on product design. The 2nd plant will increase supply, sure, but the SUV will more than double demand, so I see a shortage for at least another year.
Other big surprise? The PT Cruiser got a solid reliability rating.
never would have thought that the PT would be considered reliable. how did the other chryco's do?
Was parked next to a new RAV4 yesterday. Makes our Outback look kind of long. A quick look makes it seem like there is little cargo room. How can this thing compete with a Forester?
The PT was a diamond in the rough, put it that way.
The new RAV4's reliability was downgraded as well, but it still above average. The Forester was 3rd most reliable, but it might take the crown if the CR-V takes the same dive the Civic just did.
RAV4's seat moves forward, so it is versatile. It just needs a back bumper. The new CR-V will hurt Toyota, though.
Dan: spring 2002 as a 2003 model, and I'm guessing it'll either get a wheelbase stretch or the rear suspension from the Outback for better packaging, so yes, very likely more rear seat room.
I do not think it'll get higher, because it folds to create a flat cargo area, and it has to be level with that low lift over and all. I don't see them going to a seat like the CR-V and RAV4, which fold down and forward, because no other Subies do that.
I was hoping they'd make it like the OBS and other good wagons that fold the seat bottom up before you fold the seat back down. (At least my daughters old OBS is like that.) That allows the seat bottom to be higher and more comfortable. Just wishing they'd fix that because roominess is not the only problem. Dan
The bottom part of the rear seat is fixed on the 02'Impreza wagon line-up (OBS, WRX, TS). Only the rear seatbacks fold (60/40 split). Just a FYI for the files, :-)
You do trade off a bit of convenience - it takes more steps because you have to move the seat base up, then fold the back rest down, and remove the head rest, too. This also kills the 60/40 versatility, because the seat base is one piece.
On the Forester, you just fold it, period. No head rest to remove, no nuthin'. 60/40 works fine.
We'll see how they design the new one. Maybe if the foot well was deeper it could be more comfy.
I don't trust any FWD chassis to tow 5Klbs. Also what precisely did they do to be able to up the towing so easily? Seems kinda odd that they could just upgrade it like that w/o significant work on the vehicle.
I know the Odyssey has an optional transmission cooler, maybe they made that standard? Also, was it a 4 speed auto before? The Ody also got a new 5 speed tranny.
Either that or Honda decided its ratings were just too conservative.
From experience the chassis is the limiting factor, not the drivetrain. Originally the MDX w/o the towing package was rated at something like 1500lbs or thereabouts. Although the 5-speed might have something to do with it, so long as it isn't the 5-speed from the TLS/CLS twins that are having lots of problems now.
I'm not sure what Acura did to increase the tow capacity, but I know they did something, just not sure what at this point. The salesman was of little help, because I asked...
Comments
Ross
Bob
Bob
Bob
If Subaru VDC has navigation system instead of Onstar crap, it will compete better with Volvo, vw & audi wagons......none of them have navigation system.
Ross
Get a Garmin Street Pilot III for 1/2 the $$$$. It's portable and mounts at eye-level opposed to down and right of driver. What good is a 5" screen when you could barely look down while you're driving.
Hmm.. Patti, maybe SoA should workout something with Garmin (it's outdoor activity related) like a coupon good for $200 off. :-)
-Dave
Bob
-Brian
Bob
Patti: yes, please, keep offering us "teaser" info on the new models, including the BRAT and Forester.
Bob: you already drove a CR-V? I thought they arrived today.
A few more cons: packaging (ABS with EX model only), no VSA or Navi that exist in Japan, no painted bumpers, no true top-line model (SE), feels like FWD, and the shortest powertrain warranty in the industry with no roadside assistance either.
Still, it looks to be a big improvement, and most owners won't notice or care about those negatives.
-juice
Have any good reading to suggest regarding Honda's manufacturing practices that are behind their quality results?
--Bart
It's my sense that CRV customers are more "utility-oriented" than Forester customers, who seem to be a a bit more more "fun" oriented. The CRV excels at utility, much more so than the Forester. And... the price is perfect, assuming you can get one without any ADM.
As I said, it's not perfect, but Honda really has closed the gap between the current Forester and the new CRV. I hope (expect!) the new '03 Forester will again widen the gap. Until then, IMO, the CRV has the edge.
Bob
There was someone on this board (not this thread, but somewhere else), with a handle alexp. He said he worked in automotive industry, in particular for a company that supplied parts to many car manufacturers. He said, Honda's losing its quality touch, although still way ahead of domestics. In terms of quality, his recommendation was to buy Japanese-built Toyotas, Subarus (both Japanese-built and from Indiana), Isuzu (Japanese-built Troopers), some of Mitsu lines.
I agree that the new CR-V is about a match for the Forester. That's saying a lot, coming from me. Just remember, the new Forester is just around the corner, though.
Kate: Trooper? You are paisan's long-lost cousin!
-juice
paisan's long-lost sister Kate
Bob
-juice
You're right, those prices are incredible!
Bob
Domestic manufacturers on the other hand only pull cars at random and submit them to quality control checks, this is why you have keep dragging domestic cars back to the dealers to repair faults that should not have been there in the first place.
Kate I am sorry to hear you so many problems with your Accord, but all car makers not only Honda occasional turn out a lemon.
I have owned 2 Civics, and 6 Accords two were new and the rest were used three of them were bought with very high milage and I can honestly say every one of them was a fabulous car.
One in Particular was an 83 Accord hatchback which I sold with well over 200,000 miles and my wife literally cried to see it go.
Cheers Pat.
"Mrs. Juice, yes sign these papers or we can't be held responsible for the safety of you and your family"
In all seriousness, you can get a Trooper S AT w/TOD (awd) for around $21-22K +TTL.
-mike
PS: Kate = Paisana (Paisan is short for Paisano)
Were I to throw out the car-based and mileage criteria, it's a heck of a value. They actually cost a bit less than Axioms do.
Don't mean to get your hopes up, though. If we get a massive vehicle, it'll be a minivan. Right now, her 626 at $0 down $0 per month sounds like the best deal. ;-)
-juice
Bob
When we check out the VDC, I'll have to take a peek at one. It's not my style, but who knows, the wife might be into it.
-juice
http://www.eccentricamerica.net/Images/pete.jpg
--Bart
-mike
Yep the Trooper has been discounted, due to poor sales. I'm so overcome with joy that we are getting the Envoy based Asscendor, afterall there was just another recall on the transmission this time on the Envoy/Trailblazer!
Heed my warning fellow GMers. GM will suck FHI dry, it't their MO.
-mike
Fitz had only 4 Troopas, two S and two LS, none with the air lift roof.
What, are you concerned about a silly little collapsing suspension? ;-)
By the time the Ascendor comes out, GM would have worked out all the bugs. If Isuzu can redo the interior and restyle it, I really do think it has potential.
-juice
http://just-auto.com/news_detail.asp?art=36091&dm=yes
It was mentioned that the Odyssey and MDX are among the hottest cars on the market. I happened to stop by an Acura dealer yesterday in hopes of getting new MDX brochure, and the salesman told me that they are now taking MDX orders for next May! BTW, MDX towing is now at 5000 pounds with no restrictions for '02.
Bob
Dennis
bblacha "New Honda (non-Acura) SUVs" Nov 15, 2001 6:43am
--Bart
Bob
On the threads here, it seems trannies were weak on the 99s, but they're better now. The 2002 just got a 5 speed, so I wonder if that's any better (or worse)?
Still, the Sienna and MPV carry a wide advantage in this area, and it's interesting because the MPV uses some Ford bits. Both also carry much better warranties.
Given this, the wait lists are amazing. I think it's purely based on product design. The 2nd plant will increase supply, sure, but the SUV will more than double demand, so I see a shortage for at least another year.
Other big surprise? The PT Cruiser got a solid reliability rating.
-juice
Was parked next to a new RAV4 yesterday. Makes our Outback look kind of long. A quick look makes it seem like there is little cargo room. How can this thing compete with a Forester?
-Brian
Dan J
The new RAV4's reliability was downgraded as well, but it still above average. The Forester was 3rd most reliable, but it might take the crown if the CR-V takes the same dive the Civic just did.
RAV4's seat moves forward, so it is versatile. It just needs a back bumper. The new CR-V will hurt Toyota, though.
Dan: spring 2002 as a 2003 model, and I'm guessing it'll either get a wheelbase stretch or the rear suspension from the Outback for better packaging, so yes, very likely more rear seat room.
I do not think it'll get higher, because it folds to create a flat cargo area, and it has to be level with that low lift over and all. I don't see them going to a seat like the CR-V and RAV4, which fold down and forward, because no other Subies do that.
-juice
Dan
Stephen
You do trade off a bit of convenience - it takes more steps because you have to move the seat base up, then fold the back rest down, and remove the head rest, too. This also kills the 60/40 versatility, because the seat base is one piece.
On the Forester, you just fold it, period. No head rest to remove, no nuthin'. 60/40 works fine.
We'll see how they design the new one. Maybe if the foot well was deeper it could be more comfy.
-juice
-mike
Either that or Honda decided its ratings were just too conservative.
-juice
-mike
Bob
Bob