Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

csandste · December 2001

(including these threads) and probably spread the rumor. Assuming that they are true, one reason not to tout the fact would be to keep selling the blend oil at a higher price. Maybe one is 25% syn. and the other 20% syn. A fair amount of dollars have been invested in marketing the syn. blends and promoting brand names.

mrdetailer · December 2001

If they indicate that it has new friction reducers, it's probably synthetic.

I spoke to a Quaker State Rep and he told me directly that their SL does have some synthetic in it. He also said that it was not as high as the synthetic blends.

csandste · December 2001

containing blends will force manufacturers to increase the synthetic percentage in their "blend" brands. I've always read that the percentage was quite low and that you'd be far better off for the money buying three quarts of dino and throwing a quart of synthetic in for good measure. Maybe the new SL standard will mean that "blends" actually contain closer to 50% synthetic if all SL's contain (say) 25%.

mrdetailer · December 2001

I just found out that this product won Lubricant's World Product of the year.

I have found this information.

Specially formulated for higher mileage engines

Valvoline's MaxLife motor oil is designed specifically for higher mileage engines with over 75,000 miles. Higher mileage engines may perform differently than newer ones - engines lose compression, gaskets become brittle, rings wear and valves do not seal tightly. This contributes to increased oil consumption, reduced gas mileage, decreased engine performance and a more rapid oil breakdown. MaxLife is safe for new and rebuilt engines.

MaxLife:

Helps condition seals and prevent leaks
Helps reduce oil consumption
Helps reduce deposit formation
Helps provide easier cold starts

and These Faqs

FAQ

Are there advantages to using this oil in a car with less than 75,000 miles?
Yes. MaxLife will not harm a car with less than 75,000 miles and will begin the preventative stages to help preserve the life of your vehicle's engine.

Is MaxLife motor oil a synthetic product?
No. MaxLife is made with premium base oils and special components to help slow the aging process of a vehicle's engine.

Can you alternate this product with conventional oil and still get the same results?
No. While it will not harm your car to switch back and forth, we do not recommend interchanging between MaxLife and All-Climate if you want to experience the full benefits of MaxLife.

Where is MaxLife available?
MaxLife is at all major automotive retailers and mass merchandisers nationwide.

Product Specs

MaxLife is formulated with extra anti-wear additives to exceed the engine protection requirements of ILSAC GF-1, GF-2, and API SJ, SH, SG standards, is safe for use in new and rebuilt engines, and will not void new car warranties.

What is this stuff?

brorjace · December 2001

OK, these two questions (SL standard and Valvoline Max-Life) are actually one in the same.

Once again, we descend into the depths of the definitions of exactly what is a 'synthetic' oil.

There is no real answer ... at least not from the manufacturers.

Valvoline Max-Life is Group III hydrocracked stocks ... but they only call their group IV oil (PAO - Synpower) 'synthetic'.

Castrol Syntec is Group III as well ... but they call theirs synthetic. Many of the newer SL grades are using some hydrocracked/isodewaxed/isomerized crude oil and by some definitions these (Group II, IIa, etc ...) are synthetic.

I find the statement that the "reformulated SL oils are synthetic blends, to an extent" to be a very fair generalization ... but that's it, it's just a generalization. They are all using at least Group II base stocks ... in varying amounts. That's why they are claiming better mileage on most of the containers.

--- Bror Jace

pronigier · December 2001

Camry has 67000 miles and smokes in the morning for about 10 seconds. Dealer service and parts people say manual is wrong and oil should be changed every 3000 miles . I do it at 5000.

The dealers people are high school graduates. Toyota employees Mechanical Engineers to reccomend oil changes.

5w30 is prefeered but I have been using 10w30 because we get some hot summers .

Questions: Can I change to synthetic now ? Can I use 5w30 even though we get a few 95-100 degree days .

adc100 · December 2001

Your valve guides are possibly bad. You can change to syn-but fir the first couple of change you probably chould change at around 3K because of the syn cleaning up your engine. If the oil does not appear to get two dark, you could go longer. I would use 10W30 syn. It flows better than 5W30 conventional oils below 0 Defrees F. Also its likely to smoke a little less on startup. If the smoke is white, you might have a head gasket leak or cracked head.

csandste · December 2001

The sludge thread has elicited some comments that if Toyota sludging incidents were real, then some questions would be asked somewhere other than in that thread. This might be such an incident.

Have you checked your engine for sludge? Have you read the posts in the sludge thread?

whitecaps · December 2001

Earlier today I accidentally placed automatic transaxle fluid in where my oil should go when I noticed my oil was low. My Mobil containers for both look damn near identical except the writing...

I was wondering if I could I drive it uptown maybe four (4) miles to get the oil changed or should I do the oil change myself before even starting the vehicle?

adc100 · December 2001

I would have no problem driving it that distance. It has very high viscosity index and film strength. You could wait for other posters. Naturally go light on the accelerator.

jeffbog · December 2001

Don't think you'll have a problem getting to the oil change place.

I know a guy who used to add a quart of tranny fluid to the engine oil as a heavy detergent. He would put it in, drive a 100 or so miles and then change it. This was not his regular practice, just something he did to a car he bought that had high mileage and a suspect maintenance history.

whitecaps · December 2001

Thanks for your responses...

I should mention that it was only maybe 2/10th of a quart I put in before realizing what I had done.

csandste · December 2001

but taking a quick look at the specs. for modern transmission fluid (I viewed a PDF file for Texaco), I really doubt if .2 quarts would have any negative effect. The stuff seems to have pretty good pour and flash points-- Mobil 1 should be even better.

Then again, I'm not a chemist, or even very knowledgeable in the matter.

I'd almost be tempted to ignore it and leave my oil alone until the next change.

mrdetailer · December 2001

I got a file from Valvoline with the MaxLife. Since Valvoline had been sued in the past by the FTC before for not proving claims they had made about oil additives they made sure they had performed some tests to validate their claims. A summary follows:

Oil consumption on an engine run under severe conditions was reduced by an average of 25%. At least 3 of the 7 engines had a 15% reduction.

Average deposit reduction about 8.5, average wtih conventional oil 7.6. The tech support didn't know what this meant on a percentage basis.

Softening of seals that were hardened in a lab. Improved from 1--5%

The Oil thickening test was significant. An engine running under stress conditions generally thickened 250% in about 75 hours. The Maxlife run over the same interval thickened only 50%

You can email Valvoline from their site at www.valvoline.com and request the same document that I got just by asking for the specifications of Maxlife Oil.

In the letter they also said some interesting comments.

If you do have an older engine, may be better to go with the Max-Life oil rather than synthetic, as long as it is a gasoline engine. The synthetic oil may increase your chances for a leak or oil consumption.

Also Recommend staying with original manufacturer's guideline for oil drain intervals

I contacted Tech support at 1-800-354-8957. They indicated that the seal protection was for small leaks. It wouldn't stop any thing significant. Synthetic has nothing to block small leaks, and runs out easier. They also verified that it was a Class III hydrocracked base stock.

I have a car with small camshaft leak. I'm going to give it a try at the next oil change. It doesn't cost any more than the synthetic blend I now use, and might help me delay a fairly expensive repair for a while.

tsjay · December 2001

Hey, guys, I'll be the gineau pig for this group for Max Life oil.

I have switched my '89 S-10 pickup to the Max Life as of my last oil change, which was 2300 miles ago. Previously, I had used regular Valvoline 5W-30.

I have only owned the truck since 7/16/01, and I know nothing about the history of it prior to my purchase. The truck had 134,502 miles on it when I bought it.

The engine is the 2.8 V6, and I have a five speed manual transmission.

So far, I have seen no difference in oil consumption (has used about half a quart in the 2300 miles since the oil change, which is the same rate as before the switch), cold start engine noise (didn't make much noise anyway), or leaking (doesn't have any).

At this point, all I can say is that it hasn't hurt anything. Whether I'm doing the engine any good by using this product is a question that will be very tough to answer. Whatever service I get out of that old engine, how will I know what it would have done if I had stayed with the regular Valvoline that I was using before?

The truck now has 141,935 miles on it. It has sure been a great little truck for the 7400 miles that I have owned it.

I'll let you guys know every once in a while how things are going.

tom

mrdetailer · December 2001

I know that it's hard to test in the real world, but any comments would be appreciated. I won't be able to do my switch over for a few thousand miles. For me probably in the spring.

The difference in the Sludging test was amazing, and if I can get it for half the price of Castrol Syntec

mrdetailer · December 2001

I found this on the Internet at the Castrol site under Oil History.

Distilling base oils
Lubricant base oils are made from the higher boiling fraction of crude oil which remains after removal of the lighter fractions (fuels such as diesel and gasoline). Components that would reduce the thermal and oxidative stability of a lubricant are removed, along with wax, which would cause a lubricant to solidify at low temperatures.

Hydrocracking - a different method
A different approach to obtaining lubricant base oils from crude oil uses a chemical process known as hydrocracking. The process reacts a crude oil fraction with hydrogen to break up many of the molecules. This removes the unwanted molecules and reduces the wax content. Base oils produced in this way are intermediate in performance between conventionally refined base oils and synthetic base oils.

Creating synthetic stock
Synthetic base fluid is manufactured chemically to possess superior viscosity characteristics at low temperatures, improved thermal and oxidative stability, and reduced volatility. Synthetic stock is created in the laboratory from small molecules which are reacted together to produce bigger "pure" molecules. As a result, the molecular structure of the lubricant can be precisely arranged to meet specific thermal or physical requirements and often exceed manufacturers' criteria for high performance engines.

brorjace · December 2001

That Castrol comment is funny.

Notice they don't say that they start with crude oil and merely refine it more carefully to make their 'synthetic'?

>;^D

--- Bror Jace

ywilson · December 2001

I have heard that the company that manufactures Zmax is under litigation right now. The word is that Zmax is close to plain mineral oil and does not do what it says.

rayfbaird · December 2001

The FTC's complaint says that there is TWICE the wear on bearings even according to ZMAX's own Testing. This isn't just puffing, it's fraud.

greg29 · December 2001

QUESTION:----Has anyone had any experience using Amsoil Oil in their vehicles? ----Have a GREAT HOLIDAY! -----Greg.

armtdm · December 2001

Multiple posts on this subject and also check out the synthetic oil message line. Answer is yes, I have been using it for almost 10 years.

brorjace · December 2001

For what it's worth, I have a buddy and he used to be like me, running all his cars on synthetic oil, but he's recently switched all of them over to Valvoline Max Life. One one of them that began to leak horribly, he said it drastically reduced the oil loss.

For the record, the newest of the three (all Honda/Acuras) has 70,000 miles on the odometer.

--- Bror Jace

tsjay · December 2001

Thanks for the info on Max Life. That's what I have recently switched my S-10 pickup to.

tom

brorjace · December 2001

Oh, and I did finally read the complaint about Z-Max on the FTC's website. Funny stuff.

>;^)

--- Bror Jace

mrdetailer · December 2001

I just sent in an oil sample for my Dodge Aires (Mitsubishi 2.2 liter engine) and got these results back. Using Quaker State Syn Blend. 3,000 miles over 7 full months. The engine has 170,000 miles on it.

I had forgotten, but, just 1 month before the oil change I replaced the aluminium valve cover and put in a new gasket.

The Universal averages are in parenthesis.

Aluminum: 14 (5)
Chromium: 2 (6)
Iron: 37 (39)
Copper: 31 (15)
Lead: 12 (9)
Tin: 1 (1)
Molybdenum: 4 (9)
Nickel: 1 (1)
Manganese: 18 (0)
Silver: 0 (0)
Titanium: 0 (0)
Vanadium: 0 (0)
Boron: 20 (21)
Silicon: 28 (12)
Sodium: 91 (190)
Calcium: 1564 (774)
Magnesium: 684 (604)
Phosphorous: 1049 (824)
Zinc: 1132 (942)
Barium: 1 (9)

Flash Point: 395
Fuel: <0.5%
Sustained viscosity @210 63.4
Antifreeze: ?%
Water: 0.0%
Insolubles: 0.5%

They added this comment. Silicon and sodium can show anti-freeze in the oil, depending on the type coolant and oil in use. If that is the source in this sample, it probably would not be enough to harm the engine. No moisture found and this oil does not appear to be moisture damaged. copper could from bronze or brass engine parts, but could be an oil additive. Aluminium, common to pistons, was high, reading near three times normal. It is possible to have a contamination problem at the upper end where little gets down into the used oil. TBN was 3.5.

My questions:

Could the installation of the new Valve Cover be the cause of the increase in Aluminium and Silicon? The air filter was clean after 3,000 miles.

What is TBN, and is 3.5 good or bad?

Assuming that the copper is caused by engine wear what can be done to minimize it?

armtdm · December 2001

If they used a silicon gasket of some type then this could contribute to higher silicon but it is not bad silicon as in dirt. Labs cannot determine the type of silicon in the sample so how much is gasket is unknown. Also, your silicon is higher for 3000 miles but not huge. Every engine is different and the ave they give is only valid if it was calculated on the same engine with the same metal used in manufacturing. That is why only your own engine over time can tell you about excessive wear, the ave to me is a somewhat meaningless number as no one seems to know where they were derived from.
TBN is an indicator of the ability of the oil to continue functioning and deal with acid build up. 3.5 may be okay, depends what the oil was to begin with. Rule of thumb is that the oil starts to lose its value when the TBN becomes less then 50% of new oil or 2 or lower. So in your case at 3.5 it is okay. Synthetics start around 10-12 TBN but the blends are probably lower and I cannot help you there. In some engines higher copper may be normal other it could be iron, it depends on each engine and the metals used in construction. You have 170,000 miles on this engine, if you asssume that these results are normal for this engine there is nothing to worry about. Too bad there was no sample from 50,000 miles or 75,000 etc. Then we could see if more wear is occuring. remember, zero wear is impossible

guitarzan · December 2001

"TBN" = Total Base Number, specific to oil sampling, I believe, although I didn't know the above, or what it actually meant.

mrdetailer · December 2001

for more details on my analysis. They said the following:

The new valve cover could most definitely contribute to both the high aluminum and silicon. It is very common for a little anti-freeze to get into the oil when a valve cover is changed.

When asked about the excessive copper, he said, "if there is any metal you want to be high, it's copper. Copper is quite high in the brand of oil I was using, Quaker State.

They also said that a synthetic has a normal TBN of 10, and conventional oil generally has a TBN of 4. So 3.5 was well within normal tolerances. If conventional is below 2 then the acids are too high.

armtdm · December 2001

Your analysis was very good after all the dust has cleared!

mrdetailer · December 2001

And that's great considering the miles on the engine. I finally feel comfortable getting over 200,000 miles on the engine.

mrdetailer · December 2001

After comparing Valvoline's Maxlife data, I feel that it would be good to try it in one car. I have been running a synthetic blend. I have read some studies that a 25% blend will give 80% of the wear protection without the seal issues of synthetic.

Unfortunately when my timing belt was changed for the first time at 90,000 they didn't tell me that cam and crankshaft seals should have also been replaced as a maintenence item. Now at 119K I have a very small leak. Visible, but no appreciable lowering of oil levels like before my valve cover seal was replaced last summer.

Am thinking of mixing one quart of Valvoline Synpower with 3 quarts of Maxlife.

Any thoughts on this?

stealth1969 · December 2001

about the Ford oil? Who makes it for them? I was looking at some at Walmart yesterday. On the bottle the 5w-30 and the 10w-30 said they were hydrocracked, the 5w-20 said synthetic/hydrocracked. I was wondering if they were good oil or not. They were only $1.33 per qt. Funny, sounds like same base as Syntech but $3 less per qt.

tsjay · December 2001

You folks that are experienced with synthetic oil and extended drain intervals ought to be able to answer a question for me.

I have Mobil 1 10W-30 in my 2001 Jeep Wrangler Sport. The oil has turned very, very dark after several months. Is this normal? The engine only has about 3500 miles on it since the last oil change, but a lot of time has gone by (I think about six months).

I was drving the Jeep daily to work, which is a 27 mile drive one way. Since almost all of my miles are highway miles, I was going with 5K intervals and Mobil 1 oil.

In mid July, I bought an '89 S-10 pickup to drive to work, and the Jeep now gets very few miles put on it. It sits in the garage up to two weeks at a time without even being started. I try to pick a dry day so it won't get dirty and drive it to work one day a week, but if there is a lot of rain, I may skip a week.

OK, I know it's a Jeep and I shouldn't be afraid to get it dirty, but if I have a choice two vechicles to drive to work, and one is clean and the other dirty, I drive the dirty one when the roads are wet.

The question is, should I be concerned about the dark color of the oil? (it is black) Apparently it is just the time factor causing the dark color, since I have only put about 3500 miles on that oil.

When you guys go 7K or 10K on your intervals, is your oil real dark after a few months?

Really would appreciate hearing from some of you.

Thanks

tom

mbbenz · December 2001

currently with 38k miles on odometer. Gets changed with Mobil 1 5w-30 and PureOne filter every 7500 miles (usually about 6 months) and even when oil gets changed, it is like honey. Not even close to being black. I can see thru the dipstick but I change at 7500 miles anyways.

adc100 · December 2001

I have had some cars where the oil got dirty quicker than others. There was always a correlation to those vehicles using more oil than those where oil stayed lighter longer. In my opinion the rings were "looser" in the former. Is there oil consumption here?

My Toyota truck gets dark oil after about 6-8K. Thats when I change (That works out to be about 10 months worth. My Sentra which now has 13K on it has had the oil changed 9K ago and is still a nice noney color. Thats been 8 months. It has however had 2 filter changes on this oil. Perhaps you could throw another filter on and see if that helps.

That's my experience.

tsjay · December 2001

The Jeep does not use any oil. It only has 13,500 miles on it. I bought it new just a hair over a year ago.

I think the fact that it sits so much without being started may have something to do with the oil darkening. Think it could?

To be safe, I'll just go ahead and have it changed. I'll shorten the interval next time, or at least check the color more often to see when it gets dark.

I still hope this does not indicate that I have let it go too long. Maybe the dark color doesn't matter, but it bothers me.

tom

pepper32 · December 2001

I read on another site that Conoco makes Motorcraft oil. It is a hydrocracked group II+ produced to meet the new API SL standards. If you check out the Conoco site it lists the oil tech. data.

guitarzan · December 2001

TSJAY, you might want to have an oil analysis done to see what is happening in the oil.

If it sits a long time, it may be building up more moisture than it can burn off. Just a WILD guess.

Also, if you can find an ace Jeep mechanic at your dealer, he may know why this particular vehicle has the attribute of oil turning dark quickly.

tsjay · December 2001

Thanks. That might not be a bad idea! Getting an analysis on that oil would probably be the smart thing to do. I have never done that before.

I sure hope that I have not done any damage to that new Jeep! I'm still clinging to the hope that the dark color does not really indicate a problem, but to know for sure, I think the analysis would be the way to go.

I might also contact Mobil and see what they have to say.

tom

adc100 · December 2001

You definitely haven't done any damage!! Mobil has run tests where they left the origional oil in 5 years, with only sampling makeup. Dark oil really doesn't indicate that its no good-only an oil analysis tells that. I just change because I'm conservative.

One thing to check. Your antifreeze-make sure it isn't leaking into your oil. An oil analysis could tell you that.

tsjay · December 2001

You're making me feel better! Thanks.

How dark does your oil ever get between changes? Mine is virtually black now.

I see no foamy or creamy stuff on the dipstick. If coolant were getting into the oil, I would see something like that, right?

I have emailed Mobil with a question about oil color. There is also an 800 number, but I'll bet that no one answers after hours or on weekends. I guess I could try, but it will probably be Monday before I can reach anyone there.

Thanks again.

tom

gregb882 · December 2001

What you're experiencing, in my opinion, is typical of Jeeps. Do you have the 4.0L engine? I've had two of them (one an 89 Cherokee and the other a 97 Grand Cherokee) and they both did the same thing. Brand of oil and filter has been immaterial. It's a Jeep thing, not an oil thing. BTW, my experience goes back almost 12 years and I like my JGC - I'm not Jeep bashing.

adc100 · December 2001

I change before it gets black. Its a very dark honey color if that makes any sense. If you let the oil drip on a shiny spoon you may get a better picture of the oil. Shiny dipsticks tend to make the oil look lighter. Eventually oil will get black and Mobil really won't be able to give you much information. Again-black oil is not necessary worn out-only an analysis can tell. You won't necessary be able to see a small coolant leak in the oil. Although I haven't done it, its probably a good practice to do an oil analysis a some point in time to look for coolant leak. I would just keep a close eye on the coolant level for now.

patrikk · December 2001

This may sound naive but to check the oil properly, should I check when the engine's cold like 1st thing in the morning or should I run the car for 30 sec or so, then turn it off, then check.

Thx

adc100 · December 2001

Pull it out read it-wipe it off. Stick it down pull it up and then read it again.

tsjay · December 2001

Hey, thanks for the post!

Yes, I have the 4.0 L engine. The Jeep is a 2001 Wrangler Sport with currently 13,500 miles on it.

The oil was last changed at 10,000 miles, but because I have a work truck now and the Jeep is not driven daily, I have only put 3500 miles on the Jeep in the last six months.

I love that Jeep and plan on keeping her many years. That's why I want to use the right oil and the right change interval. I am convinced that the Mobil 1 is the right oil, but under the current set of circumstances, I am not sure what change interval is apporpriate.

The Jeep still sees mainly highway driving, but it may sit up to two weeks without even being started. When I do start her, it's usually to drive her to work, and that is 27 miles one way of highway driving.

Thanks again!

tom

tsjay · December 2001

thanks

tom

gmlover1 · December 2001

I don't know if it means anything but I have a 92 jeep 4.0L with 88000 miles on it, I only drive it about 5000 miles a year. I use dino and change the oil every 3000 miles and it never turns black.

gregb882 · December 2001

Hmmm. I wish you hadn't told me that! I'd feel better thinking you're the exception and not tsjay & I.

Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

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