Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

fleetwoodsimca · May 2002

I couldn't agree more that jumping down people's throats is out of place, and further more, it spoils it all for those that are otherwise enjoying the forums.

mdecamps · May 2002

I think I am going to give the MaxLife a try. Evidently it does have some moly in it. We're all after preventing engine wear and I think that's what will happen w/MaxLife. Maybe a couple of minor leaks will disappear as well.

chem123 · May 2002

This seems to be a place of serious discussion. I have a couple questions regarding what oil I should use in my 98 DX Civic hatch. The car is auto-crossed once a month and runs 2-3 track events per year. Thus far, I have used conventional Valvoline 5W30 with Fram filter (Fram makes Honda's oil filters) changed twice a year. My questions:

1) 5W30 vs. 10W30?
2) What oil should I be using to minimize premature wear?
3) I live in TX where temps can be from the teens up to 110 degrees. Should I run a different oil seasonally?

Thank you very much for your help on a subject I have yet to understand. I am interested in cost-independent and cost-dependent answers if possible, also. Appreciate your help!

rayfbaird · May 2002

Autocross and a cardboard backed Fram Filter could be a recipe for disaster. Go get a K2 or PureOne.

I would also hazard a guess that the auto cross is demanding on the engine. If you can do it use a good SL 10W-40. Europe requires that weight in order to past what I understand is a tough oil durability test. If your engine can take it, you should consider the sturdier oil.

adc100 · May 2002

Redline Racing oil would be a strong possibility for the events and then shifting to something else after the races. These Race oils are not compatable for daily use. So you could use a normal Redline oil in the rest of the time. I personally have a problem with the Redline because of questionable long term use with seals and for me extended drain. But then again for some vehicles seals are no big deal. I've replaced both in an afternoon on a ford 2.3L. This is the most expensive option.

Mobil/Amsoil 15W-50 for Races and then drop down to 10W-30 or maybe during Summer keep it in.

Delvac 1 5W-40 all the time. This may be the best option. High Zinc levels-good protection.

I would not change back and forth between mineral oils or between different syn brands. Also personally, I prefer 10W-30 year round (syn) even in Pa.

Filters-I like K&N, Mobil 1, Hastings in that order.

You have to realize that racing and long engine life are not really compatable (IMHO).

tntitan · May 2002

Not all Honda oil filters are from Fram. My dealership sells Honda filters made by Filtech. You won't get much support on this forum for Fram filters.

altair4 · May 2002

Who is Filtech? I've noticed the name on Honda filters as well. Any idea who these guys are? Are they part of someone else? Just curious...

bluedevils · May 2002

But their name is stamped on all the Isuzu brand oil filters I've bought for my Troopers in the past 3 years.

The company/brand seems to be little known, but fairly well respected on these boards.

Perhaps you'll get some comments from brorjace on this topic; he seems to hold the Filtech Honda filters in fairly good esteem.

aace · May 2002

which make Japan Honda Filter. If you see "Made in Canada", it is a Fram filter. If you see "Made in USA", it is a Filtech filter. FYI

http://www.toyoroki.co.jp/english/company/enkaku.htm

collins14 · May 2002

I realize this is not an oil question but this is the closed topic i could find. We just bought a new Santa Fe. Before now we always bought our gas at Sam's Club (much cheaper than local stations). Is that gas the same as the stuff we would get at Exxon, Shell etc. Should we stay away from Sam's for a new car? or is it just as good. Thanks

charlesb_la · May 2002

I don't know about where you live but around here Sam's/Walmart gas is supplied by Murphy Oil. They actually refine their own gas. You can read about them at

http://www.murphyoilcorp.com/

The real test is how your vehicle runs on the gas. If you haven't had any problems then go for it. You can use some of the money you save on a bottle of fuel injector cleaner every once and a whileif you feel it's needed.

Good luck

Charles

csandste · May 2002

The selling party is often not the refining party. I would stick to a company owned station or at least one that does enough volume. IMHO about the most dangerous place to buy gas is the small, independent station that hasn't been upgraded since the seventies.

In the St. Louis market, QuikTrip dominates and controls the prices in the market, even though they don't do any refining. Their stations are clean, well lighted, staffed with polite employees who are not alone, and are used by cops to write reports and get free coffee. That's a lot more reassuring than the Sinclair (are they still in business?) station with the sleeping dog out front and the pumps from the 1970's.

I would assume that Sams moves a lot of gas. That should be enough for you.

chem123 · May 2002

Okay, Fram is gone. I really had no idea they were that bad, but feel compelled to change.

As far as the oil, I had a feeling that I should definitely be going heavier. 5W30 and 10W30 are the oil weights recommended in the manual. What does going beyond these weights help me with? I am more interested in running a milder, safer setup than a drastic, high-weight oil. Competition isn't great enough for me to run a separate oil for a race.

Is the quality of an oil filter just as important as the oil itself? Is PureOne the best, readily-available filter for my application?

I've heard bad things about Mobil 1's new formula as well as Castrol's synthetic although keep hearing good things about Redline and Max-Life Valvoline. What is Delvac?

Am I really beyond a frequently-changed conventional oil? Please recommend any setups for me that you think would work. Thanks for the great answers so far.

bluedevils · May 2002

The experts can give you more details, but...

Delvac is a Mobil product. I believe it's targeted at diesel owners, both consumer and professional (truck drivers). Pretty sure there's a 'regular' petrol-based Delvac and a true synthetic, called Delvac 1 or something.

Tonight I saw a 4-gallon case of Delvac 15W40 at Sam's Club for $22. That's about $1.40/quart. From what the guys say here, Delvac is pretty good stuff, if you're in the market for a slightly thicker oil: I'm not aware that they make it in the thinner (0/5/10W30) grades.

Guys, what are the pros and cons of Delvac? It is believed to have a good additive package to keep things clean, plus lots of anti-wear zinc, right?

chem123 · May 2002

I can't stop learning something new. So the big question is: can my poor 1.6 turn a 15W40 oil for daily driving and racing?

bluedevils · May 2002

it's "should it?"

alternator · May 2002

will buy you a "Fram Sure Drain" system which it seems will allow you to drain engine oil directly into a disposable container, thus eliminating a catch pan and the subsequent transfer of oil from pan to container. Please see:

http://www.fram.com/home/index.html

However, I wonder if drainage through the small valve orifice would be less thorough than drainage through the normal drain opening? Any comments would be appreciated. Has anyone here tried this system?

armtdm · May 2002

I use the fumoto valves on my cars with great success so far, about double the price of the Frams. www.fumotovavle.com Probably equal in performance who knows.

However, it too has a smaller opening then the normal drain plug. However, all you get is a thinner stream of oil coming out, seems to be not a big deal, perhaps slightly longer to drain out but I let mine go overnight so a few more minutes doesn't affect me.

zr2rando · May 2002

Is your engine under warranty? If so you should do as the mfgr says.
Thin oil cuts down on fluid friction and helps get better gas mileage,,,the mfgrs are heavy on that issue.
Thicker oil has more fluid friction and will theoretically cut down on gas mileage,,,,you may not be able to measure the difference,,,but it protects the metal MUCH better than the lightweight oil does.
The hotter the outside temps, the less the first number counts....5w may be required at starting temps of -25f, but the 15w is fine at starting temps above about -15f,,,,,point is who cares about that detail during the summer (or even the winter where I live).
The 40 or 50 wt oil protects metal better than the 30 wt does, but will cut down on gas mileage some. Diesel rated oils have more detergents and more metal protection compounds too.

adc100 · May 2002

But Delvac 1 is the diesel equivalent of Mobil 1. I believe it is only available in 5W-50. It has more zinc and additives to handle the high levels of soot produced in diesel engines and at the same time maintain stable viscosity with that increased level of soot. (Soot increases viscosity) over a prolonged drain interval. Mobil claims a 10K plus interval and they claim they have tested it over 100K. I am not aware of any downside of the oil other than there will be a reduced fuel economy issue.

You can get some insight about this oil by going to:

http://www.sae.org/servlets/index

and doing a search for "2000-01-1993"

That is an SAE paper (submitted by Mobil) which describes the development, properties and testing of this oil. It will cost you $10 and it is on line instantly for you to load/read. Its 14 pages. You also can do a search for "synthetic" and find this document and other interesting documents on synthetic oils.

Also additional information is at this Mobil site:

http://www.mobil.com/mobil_lubes/onhighway/resource/index.html

Check FAQs for Delvac or Delvac 1300 super.

Perhaps someone can shed some light on other Brand name Diesel Engine Oils.

zr2rando · May 2002

Delo 400 for Chevron, Delvac for Mobil?
Anybody know what the "Del" stands for?

loubapache · May 2002

The "Del" in Delo stands for "Diesel Engine Lubricating" (Diesel Engine Lubricating Oil, or Delo).

zr2rando · May 2002

Knew it had to make sense somehow!
TGIF
see ya
Rando

adc100 · May 2002

Delo is 5W-40, not 50. Sorry.

fleetwoodsimca · May 2002

"That's a lot more reassuring than the Sinclair (are they still in business?) station with the sleeping dog out front and the pumps from the 1970's."
I don't doubt your assessment of Sinclair in the St. Louis area. You should come out here to the Rocky Mountain area and see that Sinclair is a top grade player in the superior product market. They build new stations and renew old stations out here!

chem123 · May 2002

Thanks guys for the response. No, my car is not under warranty. Is it true that the running a heavier oil has no adverse side-affects other than reduced mpg? Also, is this Delvac okay to be running on a gas engine?

More basic questions about things that I thought I understood:

Would a 10W30 be an improvement over 5W30 when run hard even though they both have the same viscosity under stress?

Can someone "class" the oil filters for me to understand what I am looking at?

Doesn't the first number in an oil's weight represent its thickness at start-up and the second number its thickness at running temp?

csandste · May 2002

Why don't you look at near the bottom of this page to the who makes the best oil filter thread? It's been a while since anyone posted there. There's another smaller oil filter forum in the aftermarket and accessories section.

Everytime I post this, I get sarcastic remarks about "crunchy or creamy" but I think this is a good rationale for using thinner oil.

http://www.salemboysauto.com/faqs/faq-29.htm

BTW-- I've always favored 10W30 as a good compromise, but I am seriously considering going to a heavier weight or adding STP when the current SL grade is usurped by the newer "converter friendly" classification next year.

zr2rando · May 2002

crunchy or creamy,,he he
Not being rude to Csandste but I disagree with the SALEMBOYS,,,comparing peanutbutter and sewingmachineoil is like comparing oil and grease. (3 in 1 oil is a 10wt oil (says it on the can) and the peanutputter would be like grease ,no comparison there)
Oil wt is stated like this, for example, 10w/30 is a 10wt oil with viscosity improver that causes it to not thin any more than a 30 wt oil would at higher temp,I believe they consider the higher temp to be 100c but I am not positive about that.
Viscosity improver is a large molecular wt polymer that is coiled up at cooler temps and uncoils (expands) at higher temps, therefore it behaves like a small molecule and then behaves like a large one at higher temp.
STP contains ZDDP and VI so it helps oil act like a heavier wt oil. Problem is the polymer breaks down eventually into smaller molecules and stops helping out (also degrades into detrimental varnish/crud/junk so don't use it for extended drain intervals or very long in engines with high heat issues).
I use STP in one of my trucks so don't think that I am in any way negative about it, just respect the conditions for use and you will be ok if you choose to use it.
The manufacturers NEED to get the best average fuel mileage out of their vehicles so they do whatever they can to help, and the 5w-10w/30 contain friction modifiers to help with "being slick" but it does not seem any other weights use it, not sure why on that one.
Thicker wts of oils have higher viscosity (resistance to flow) therefore they pump slower at low temps (therefore a major issue during wintertime startups, ok after warmup though)...at temps above freezing even 20w50 pumps just fine, and the heavier oil protects metal much better than the thinner oils do,they just have more resistance to flow and cause a little less gas mileage, sometimes not even enough for you to measure in normal driving.
It depends on what you want in the oil, mfgrs NEED the extra mileage, and you may too, but engine longevity can use some thicker oil. Most folks these days do not buy a vehicle intending to keep it till it falls apart, they would put the priority on better fuel economy.
see ya
Good morning
Rando

brorjace · May 2002

chem123, I drive a '95 Civic Coupe. It sounds like one of Red Line's street formulas would be just what the doctor ordered. It's heavier-dutier than probably any other oil and has the additive package to protect AND live in your crankcase for a few thousand miles. Don't go heavier than 10W30, though, as it will cost you a few horsepower at the higher-RPMs.

I've been using it for about a year and my oil consumption, which was about 1 quart in 4-5,000 miles, has returned to no noticeable change on the dipstick in over 6,000 miles.

Use a decent filter, nearly ANY filter would be better than Fram. For our cars, I recommend the Filtech OEM (Blue) factory filters. These are made in the USA. The crappy Fram OEM filters are made in Canada and when I chopped one open and looked at the cheap innards, I gave the rest of 'em away.

I use a Hastings filter (#LF-402) which I think is decent because I can't get Filtech filters in quantity anymore. I wouldn't use a Pure-One for racing. It's a good filter but can restrict oil flow at high RPM in some applications. A K&N oil filter might be a better choice here.

--- Bror Jace

chem123 · May 2002

Thank you everyone that has helped me out. I proabably would have been able to figure this out eventually but it would have taken me much longer and I would would have made some mistakes.

Thus far, it sounds like I will be going with 10W30 Redline street and a K&N oil filter for my daily driving/racing duties. I think I may buy one of those Fram oil remover kits just because it looks like a great idea. Please correct me if I am wrong so far.

However, I have a couple more questions:
1) How reliable is the info on the "peanut butter" site?
2) What are the best places to order things such as Redline fluides and K&N filters? Direct from the manufactures?
3) I have never run a synthetic oil. What change intervals am I looking at with Redline and how will I know when to change?
4) I am wondering which conventional oil to put in my "beater" car. Is Valvoline (and its conventional and Max-Life formulas) the best bet or are all convetional oils very similar?

I appreciate all of your help.

zr2rando · May 2002

I can't answer most of it though,,,,
1. as for the peanut butter site? those guys are "nuts"
2.3. don't know
4. I use Havoline conventional, change every 3k miles and use A.B.F. filters. I use the STP with 10w/40 oil in my 182k mile truck

You won't hear many people pull for using heavier oil than 10w/30 these days, I'm kind'of a rogue on that subject-but I firmly believe in using thicker oil..
best of luck to you
see y'all
Rando

gregb882 · May 2002

fleetwoodsimca & charlesb_la. As promised, here's my update. I ordered the min 4 pints on April 26th and it arrived on May 2nd. UPS shipping was $7.00 and the Moly was $5.50 per pint. The vehicle I've put it in is a 2002 Explorer XLT, 6cyl, 4X4, and 3.73 rear end with 14,250 miles. I used 4.5 qts of MaxLife 5W30 (SL rated), the Moly and a Motorcraft filter. Over the last 7 fill-ups, I've average 17.55 MPG (a mix of x-way and city streets in metro-Detroit). I managed to goop a little of the Moly on the side of the bottle and I have to say that it is pretty slippery stuff  but it is a lot thicker than regular oil so that in itself would make it seem more slippery.

I also have a 97 Grand Cherokee with about 92,000 that Ill be using the Moly in, but its my wife vehicle so I dont have MPG numbers for it. Neither vehicle uses any noticeable amount of oil between changes  usually 3,000 miles but sometimes 4,000 when Im lazy.

I drive between 2,500 and 2,800 miles per month so it wont take long to get some MPG figures. The Explorer runs pretty quietly anyway and has never had any noisy start-ups, so I dont expect to hear any differences there. Im mostly hoping to extend the engines life but any improvement in mileage would be a plus.

Ill report in when anything comes up.

adc100 · May 2002

Redline:

http://www.manhonda.com/store/honda/index.cfm?level=35&CFID=660066&CFTOKEN=96247352

Haven't ordered here but others have

Conventional oil: Havoline, agree with zr2rando here. Also I do use the K&N but they are probably overpriced. But, what the hell.

csandste · May 2002

Mark Salem does an auto repair show in the Phoenix and St. Louis markets, plus a TV show which I've never seen in Phoenix. He's less interesting, but more reliable than Click and Clack. I use one of his recommended repair shops and have never been disappointed.

I'm seriously considering going to a heavier weight oil or adding STP, especially when the current SL grade is replaced next year. I just replaced 5W30 with 10W30 in a Cavalier with 75K. Threw in some Wal-Mart imitation STP too. The only time I used 10W40 I blew the engine. However that was a Ford Festiva that was abused by the original owner. Got 110K with 10W30 and put in a junkyard engine for $300 that was going strong when I gave it away at 160K. Wish I'd kept that car, I liked it a lot. I doubt if the 10W40 was the cause, but that incident does give me second thoughts. I always thought 10W30 was the ideal weight for most applications, but with the bogus STP I'm probably running 15W40.

I'm also more favorable to trying a 15W40 when the standards change than going with a 10W40.

However, Salem's advice to go with 5W30 or 10W30 is mainstream advice which matches most of the posts at the beginning of this forum if memory serves me correctly.

I do think the peanutbutter analogy is overstated.

chem123 · May 2002

Thanks for the great answers, guys. Do you use Halvoline because it is cheaper than something such as Valvoline or what? I asked around and did find a recommended place for Redline stuff and Hastings filters:

http://www.auto-motor-oil.com/

Pretty good price.
When you guys say, "I use [insert oil] and STP," are you talking about an STP oil additive? Are there any other engine cleaners/additives that are worth using?

Haha, what I meant about the "nuts" guy was that if you guys thought the rest of his advice was pretty sound on other topics. It seems to be on my side. Is the main problem some of you have with him is his oil analogy? Isn't the overall recommendation okay?

What a great discussion.

csandste · May 2002

although I've heard that it can break down. I've always put STP or similar products into beaters with high mileage.

bluedevils · May 2002

A month or so ago I bought a case of Chevron Supreme 10W30, API class SL. Last week I bought 3 cases of Citgo SuperGard-- 2 5W30 and 1 10W30. I plan to alternate between these 2 brands, which both appear to have significant quantities of hydrocracked base stocks-- based on price and availability. The Citgo I picked up had a $4.80/case rebate, which made the final price 73 cents a qt.

My existing supply of SJ Mobil 1 5W30 will be used up in about 6 months. Once it's gone, I have no plans to go back to synthetic oil and the prices associated with it.

I'm at the point where my level of knowledge leaves me unconvinced that true synthetic is worth the extra money for me. I'm not willing to spend more time, beyond following these boards, to learn more.

We drive our cars fairly gently, in fairly moderate temperatures (rarely below 10F or above 90F here in SE Mich.), and I just don't think the extra protection, or the potential for extra protection since I'm not really convinced of that, is worth the money in our situation.

It just seems like the thinner weights of the new SL oils are getting better and better and closing the performance gap on synthetics, while the price gap remains quite wide and is not narrowing.

brorjace · May 2002

chem123, I'll answer your questions point by point even though most of them have already been addressed:

1) That peanut butter analogy is overstated to a ridiculous degree. It would only apply if someone was advocating you pumping #2 GP grease into your crankcase. He should have used something like corn oil vs. molasses or honey or gravy, etc ... to compare the different weights of oil ... and even that is a stretch.

2) I have been buying Red Line from that auto-oil.com guy previously mentioned. Overall he's competeent but like a lot of on-line sellers, he doesn't answer his e-mail enough unless it specifically involves an order. I have also gotten stuff from Manhonda.com which is a dealership in Manchester, CT. I don't buy K&N oil filters on-line. I bought one locally from one of the big-box auto supply stores. Generally, I think they are overpriced (about $10 each) but they will give your car a healthy supply of oil.

3) Since you race, I wouldn't stretch the interval past 5,000 miles without lab testing. I use Blackstone Labs but there are many out there.

4) The line is blurring between "Conventional" and "Synthetic" oils and Valvoline Max-Life is an example of that. It has a base stock that most other brands call "synthetic" and has a potent additive package ... for only $2 per quart. Not bad at all. >:^)

As for SL oils, there is less difference between that brands as there ever has been.

If you know you are using a good oil, DO NOT use an oil additive. STP is not what you want in a high-RPM engine as it will shear down quickly. Use the weight you want of Red Line and know that Red Line has a VERY ROBUST anti-wear additive package. None of us would be able to improve on it by playing "Mr. Wizard" with various bottles of store-bought goo.

--- Bror Jace

PS - You might also like www.Honda-Tech.com

fleetwoodsimca · May 2002

I have a strong appreciation for the consumer philosophy I am reading in your posts. Hey, how can you get by with that Citgo oil, when we know it does not have any Middle East crude in it?
(:oÞ (:oÞ (:oÞ
gregb882: Thanks for the update on the moly. How much do you add per quart of oil?

gregb882 · May 2002

I used one pint for 4-1/2 qts of oil for a total fill of 5 qts. It put the level right smack in the middle of the dip stick indicator range.

zr2rando · May 2002

I agree with Bror on the racing/STP combination.
As you know I don't have a problem with the STP itself, but the "conditions for use" would not include racing/constant high heat/high rpms etc.
IF you want to use oil thicker than 10w/30 then just use thicker oil in that situation. I use STP but I don't race.
I am just a normal driver, my main goal is engine/vehicle longevity rather than high performance driving.
I use Havoline conventional oil, will probably use Chevron Supreme after I use the Havoline up.
With the Chevron/Texaco merge both are on the top of a high quality list of auto products, I have not seen shady marketing practices from them like I have some others.
good morning everyone
Rando

armtdm · May 2002

Redline dealers are free to set their own prices and you will find most within a range, some include shipping some don't. I have found it is best to find a dealer close to you as this reduces the shipping cost. Prices can vary though, I have seen $6.50-$8.15 per quart, most aropuond the $7.50-$7.75

knapp3 · May 2002

My old Ford van specifies an oil that carries the API Certified mark and meets their 153-E spec, neither of which MaxLife claims to meet. Other Valvoline conventional oils do meet these performance levels. Valvoline simply refuses the answer my emails about this simple question. Would you still use Max Life in cases like this?

zr2rando · May 2002

while the vehicle is under warranty, after that the vehicle is yours,,,they could care less.
The maxlife type oils have extra additives like the zinc metal protection, and seal swellers etc,,,so they do not meet the API certifications.
Just because it does not carry the seal does not mean it is bad oil, in this case it is just the opposite. You add some STP to any API certified oil and you just de-certified it, know what I mean?
Maxlife is doing pretty good according to most of these Edmunds folks..
see ya
Rando

bobistheoilguy · May 2002

As its detergents show to be quite low (tbn 5.9)and not up to the higher levels used in oils with extended drains in mind. 3k should hold no problem though.

Also a subnote, Maxlife is now api SL certified as I went to the parts house and verified it on the bottle. I have a virgin sample of the old max life analysis but not the new api certified one. So, I'd speculate that the zddp levels are now within the api limits, but also the 10w40 maxlife's additive antiwear package seem to rival REDLINES with a whopping 290ppms of Moly.

brorjace · May 2002

The API is a bunch of semi-useless bureacrats with conflicting agendas and I look at their official certification symbol as a formality I can do without.

Bob, wow, sorry to hear about Max-life having such a weak additive package. I would think that well-worn cars would allow more blow-by and need a BETTER anti-corrosive package to deal with more byproducts of combustion and fuel contaminated oil.

Well, for $2 per quart, I guess you can't expect it to be excellent in every category!

--- Bror Jace

bobistheoilguy · May 2002

but then on the other hand maybe they're afraid of it cleaning too well. who knows, anyway, most oils that do contain moly and especially in those quantities are either more expensive or cut corners in other areas to stay competitive.

chem123 · May 2002

Yes! I remember you from H-T.com. What a huge oil thread going on there! Oh wait...this one is bigger. I especially like the ITR and Competition Forums. Good to see you here, and I have been enjoying your advice along with the intellectual inputs from everyone.

I have been trying to classify in my mind what oils and filters are worth using in each price range (racing or not) and have been trying to rank them:

OIL
-cheap-
Chevron
Havoline
Valvoline?
Valvoline Max-life
Mobil 1?
Redline
Amsoil?
-expensive-

OIL FILTERS
-cheap-
Pure One
K2?
Hastings
Mobil 1?
K&N
-expensive-

I think some things may be wrong. Please correct me.

fleetwoodsimca · May 2002

...at Walmart-- the house brand similar product: Has anyone here ascertained the presence/non-presence of ZDDP and/or MOLY?

hobieslug · May 2002

to whom it may concern and queenbee
my son has a honda odessy 2002 it calls for 5w-20
the manual states that you can use 5w-30 in a pinch but not twice in a row. I'm a big believer
in the owners manual
also valvoline makes a 5w-20
parts stores like nappa has a policy if they dont carry it they will special order it for you

Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

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