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Fair enough.
I too strive for best bang for the buck. What with my considerable amount of both personal experience (I turned a wrench professionally for a number of years), along with studying lots of relevant scientific data (the benefit of having worked for the folks from Stuttgart for a few years back in the mid 1990s), I have no problem with the concept of extended OCIs. I also have no problem with the concept of running fully synthetic oil that has turned black in my car, once again, a benefit of being able to peruse the research data back at MB-USA.
My only requirement for pushing OCIs to the extreme is that I won't do it unless my car is equipped with an oil service monitor (I've had two cars that have been so equipped), which by your measure could be both "Optimal AND Maximal". For my cars that are less sophisticated, I think 10K to 12K is sufficient, even then, my oil still isn't full black when I change it (12K miles being as Optimal and Maximal as I'm willing to go without either oil analy$i$ or the aforementioned oil monitor).
Best Regards,
Shipo
When I feel more comfortable with the OLM system, I will probably "split the difference" on oil changes, taking the OLM mileage and dividing by 2 (or just doing a midlife oil change at 50% indicated oil life remaining).
I am also thinking about leaving the oil filter (a drop in) in place during my intermediate oil changes - very little oil is left in the filter after a normal drain (it's a tiny - but expensive - little thing with no cannister). Apart from cheapness, I don't want the Honda oil change lane (yeah, I know) diddling with the drop in filter cover etc.
Regarding the drop in oil filter, I've had those on my last three cars, and I love them. Why? Well, combined with the use of a dipstick style oil extractor, that means that you can perform a complete oil change without ever having to crawl under the car.
As far as leaving filter in for the full duration of the oil monitor recommended OCI, regardless of whether you're doing two non synthetic oil changes or one change with synthetic, I think that leaving the filter in there is certainly acceptable, and probably desirable.
Best Regards,
Shipo
P.S.
A little off topic here (to say the least), if you have a 4-Door Cobalt, do you hear lots of wind noise coming from around the rear doors? My rental was so loud that I initially pulled over a few times to make sure that both of the rear doors were fully shut.
Our thinking on OLM and full synthetic matches. I put in Valvoline 5-40 Euro formula full synthetic at 349 miles on Saturday; it's getting harder to find the Euro formulas, but a Valvoline oil change shop on the way to Yosemite had it; I kept the oem filter in.
The car is VERY quiet; the tires are among the quietest I've had, the engine is quiet (except on hard acceleration). Wind noise is the loudest, but it has less wind noise than our Dodge Caravan.
I got 36.5 mpg indicated on the computer, and 33.62 calculated from fill up (assuming the dealer did an honest fillup for me when I drove off the lot). Chevy is doing a nice job with the Ecotec. I still like the Focus ZX3 better, but I can't argue with the price, the performance of the Ecotec 2.2 (better than the ZX3), or the fuel economy (better than the ZX3).
Hmmm, I have no problem finding at least two Euro-Spec full Synthetics. All of my local AutoZone stores sell both Mobil 1 0W-40 and Castrol (made in Germany) 0W-30.
"Wind noise is the loudest, but it has less wind noise than our Dodge Caravan."
Very interesting. I'm thinking that you're lucky that you didn't opt for the 4-Door as the car that I had was WAY noisier than either of our DGCs. My 12 year old son had to ride in the back seat a few times, only for a mile or two each time and never above 40 mph, however, he kept insisting that his door wasn't fully shut. That turned out to be not so for any of the trips. Interesting measure of the poor fit for the door seals.
Were it not for the wind noise and the "Slip Cover" like seat material, I would easily consider recommending the Cobalt to anybody who was in the market for a good quality and inexpensive ride.
FWIW, compared to both of the Toyota Corollas that my Mother (current generation) and Mother-In-Law (previous generation) have; the Cobalt had it in spades over the Toyotas with the exception of the two aforementioned issues. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
As for using the recommended 30 weight in the Cobalt (Chevy hasn't made the shift to 20 weight yet), I've been put off by too many used oil tests posted on that "other" website indicating 5-30's quickly shear down to 20 weight, which is why I thought I'd use a (hopefully) more shear stable Euro spec oil. I want something that is in between the "light" 30's we get and the "heavy" truck and diesel 40's....
Regarding the loss of shear protection, I've never heard any evidence to suggest that either will exhibit much of a loss after even 15,000 miles (speaking strictly about the 0W-40 and the 0W-30 here). Assuming that my information is correct, these two oils are the factory recommended oils for BMW (Castrol), Mercedes-Benz (Mobil 1) and Porsche (Mobil 1). FWIW, the Germans (who spend much more time running in the high power & high RPM ranges than we do) have MUCH more incentive to extend their oil changes to the very last moment given that the last time I checked, Mobil 1 0W-40 was something like ten Euros per liter. Think about it this way, if Mobil 1 is good enough to protect a BMW engine at 150 mph for 12,000 to 13,000 miles (the oil monitor won't let it go much beyond that at those speeds), it is certainly good enough for your typical car driven in America at half those speeds, even at the same extended OCI.
As for the flow rates when the oil is up to temperature, I've "heard" that the Castrol 0W-30 is a little long on the "30" while the Mobil 1 0W-40 is a little short on the "40". In the end, there really isn't much of a weight/flow difference between the two.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Pennzoil actually makes two different 5-30's, one an "American spec" GF-4 that DOESN'T satisfy VW specs, and the other a "Euro formula" (supposedly says that on the bottle) blend that satisfies the VW specs, but conversely doesn't (I don't believe) satisfy GF-4 requirements.
As Pennzoil puts in it their blurb for their new Platinum synthetic, (I paraphrase) "before you had to choose between European protection standards and American mileage standards..." and I want to go for the protection, not the mileage (or converter protection, they can be replaced!).
So I am less "brand loyal" than determined to get a Euro spec oil; and I guess I can live with any of 5-30, 0-30, 5-40, or 0-40. But I'd like to choose a brand that is easy to find. Since Walmart stopped carrying Mobil 1 0-40, in jugs or quarts, I guess I am stuck going to Autozone or Kragens unless the MaxLife you mentioned is "Euro spec" and available at my local Walmart. Which means, most likely, Mobil 1 0-40 since I tend to agree with Shipo on the great quality of Mobil 1.
Off thread: we got a PT Cruiser with free 3,000 mile oil changes, so I settled on carrying in TropArctic 5-30. I think that will work fine given the short oil change interval we will be using - the oil is cheap and the labor is free. But if they start trying to sell me service upgrades, or if dealer service takes too long, it may be back to the Honda oil change express lane for me....
Valvoline MaxLife Synthetic and Valvoline SynPower both meet the VW 502.00 and 505.00 standards, which are the bare minimums for VW & Audi gasoline and diesel engines respectively. Oils like Mobil 1 0W-40 and German made Castrol Syntech 0W-30 not only meet those specs but are also certified to meet the much more stringent 503.00 and 503.01 gasoline engines and according to what I have read, both oils are currently being tested for the new diesel 505.01 certification.
Best Regards.
Shipo
BTW, I've seen Synpower 5w-40 at my local Pep Boys, if that helps you at all.
Said another way, the car that is currently on the top of my short list for my next ride is the Audi A3 2.0T, and you couldn't pay me to use an oil that only met the 502.00 specification. Said yet another way, even if the car comes with free maintenance, I'm doing my own oil changes and using Mobil 1 0W-40 which meets the most stringent VW 503.01 standards.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Just so I can avoid going back through my previous messages to see what info I included, I'll post my info again. I have a '99 Corolla with about 75K miles. I currently use Havoline dino with PureOne filters with 6K mile OCI's. I'm very happy with the results of my current oil/filter/OCI combo, however because I put 2500-3000 miles on this car per month, I would like to consider going to a full syn to extend my OCI's. I would only consider doing so under the following conditions:
1) Switching to an extended OCI using a full syn would be at least as cost effective as what I'm currently doing.
2) Going with the proposed extended OCI would not decrease the lifespan of my engine.
I have considered switching to the 15K mile Mobil 1, but many people have said they wouldn't run that oil for 15K, even though it's GUARANTEED for 15K miles. However, it would cost me more than what I pay now per OC if I were to switch to a full syn and not go full the 15K. I've also been told it's not just the M1 I should not go 15K with, most have said they wouldn't trust Amzoil, Shaeffer's, Redline, or any of the others for that long either. They say the culprit is the small sump of the Corolla. Correct me if I'm wrong, but 4 qts of oil for a 1.8 liter engine doesn't seem small to me. I've seen many big cubic inch V-8's that don't hold more than 5 qts, so how can 4 qts be small for the Corolla? Thanks.
Best Regards,
Shipo
I'll get to it tonight. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
Best Regards,
Shipo
Valvoline MaxLife Synthetic (must be the full synth type) 5w-30 meets VW Spec 502.00. Valvoline Synpower 5w-40 meets 502.00. Interestingly, Synpower 5w-30 (as available in the US) DOES NOT meet 502.00, per Valvoline's website and an e-mail exchange I had with them.
Thanks, that helps. So if I want "European protection" for my Ecotec 2.2 normally aspirated, I'll need to either run the Valvoline 5-40 or the Maxlife full synthetic 5-30. Or Syntec 0-30 or Mobil 1 0-40.
I am trying to figure out what to carry in for a dealer oil change when the OLM light comes on - I think the dealer might have less issues with a 5-30 or 0-30 oil than with a 5-40. I almost fell like throwing in the rag and running an API SM/ILSAC GF-4 oil, like one of the three flavors of Mobil 1 - but I want an oil that will hold its 30 rating, or at least not shear down below 30....
A few general comments:
1) A car that is driven in excess of 2,000 miles per month can be expected to drive far more miles before the oil reaches any arbitrary threshold for oil replacement than the same car running on the same oil that is only driven sparingly.
2) Changing to synthetic oil in a well maintained car with 75,000 miles on it is probably not much of an issue. That having been said, I would recommend two oil changes at say 7,500 miles, simply because synthetic oil is able to be manufactured with far more detergents than conventional oil and as such it will wash off most if not all varnishes and deposits left behind by the previous oil.
3) With a couple of shorter oil changes out of the way and a third oil pan full of new synthetic oil, I would then embark on an oil analysis regimen for at least the first extended oil change. At 5,000 miles I would suggest you send in two oil samples, one with unused oil of the same brand and weight as in the car (this can then serve as a baseline) and one with the oil with 5,000 miles on it. Assuming all is well, I would then send in a single 10,000 mile sample. With these results in hand you will probably have a pretty fair idea of whether the oil will make it for the full 15,000. Even still, I would suggest sending in another oil sample at 12,500 and again at 15,000 just to be absolutely sure.
As I've been known to hang around airports and tinker with airplanes a little bit, I can recommend the following outfit as having a good reputation amongst the owner/pilots that I've flow with. In the case of General Aviation, oil analysis isn't simply a matter of curiosity, it can often be a matter of life and death, and every owner/pilot that I know (including the owners of the planes that I've rented) is very religious about having oil analysis performed on a regular (i.e. at least every other oil change) basis.
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/index.html
As far as which oil, VW and BMW appear to have the two most stringent oil specifications for gasoline engines, namely VW 503.01 and BMW LL-4. The only two oils that I'm aware of that are certified to meet the 503.01 oil specification are Mobil 1 0W-40 and German made Castrol Syntech 0W-30. FWIW, Amsoil claims that their "European Car Formula Synthetic 5W-40 Motor Oil (AFL)" meets the 503.01 standard, however, that claim hasn't been verified via the certification process. As for the new BMW Longlife-4 specification, it is my understanding that the only two oils sold here in the U.S.A. that have been submitted for certification are the aforementioned Mobil 1 and Castrol Syntech, and my best guess is that they will both pass without too much of a problem.
As for the size of the oil pan/amount of oil added per change, yes, the larger the quantity of oil, the easier it is on the oil. That having been said, I'd wager some pretty big money that those "many people" who've offered you their opinions regarding which oil to use and how long it will be good for, have never even once had any oil analysis performed on their cars, and as such, their opinions are worth exactly what you paid for them.
To summarize this entire post I'll just hit the high points again:
1) You are a high mileage driver, and that is lots of easy miles as far as your oil is concerned (i.e. less wear and less oil degradation on a per mile basis).
2) Perform a couple of interim oil changes to allow your engine to get a little cleaned up and to be pretty much assured that the last vestiges of your conventional oil are extremely diluted.
3) On your first (and maybe even your second) extended OCI attempt, I would have several interim samples of oil sent in for oil analysis.
4) With those results in hand, you can make a very educated decision as to whether continuing with Synthetic oil and extended OCIs is worth it for you.
5) A side benefit of having your oil analysis results in hand is that you can then argue with authority against anybody who says, "Only a fool will leave any oil, synthetic or otherwise, in their car for more than 3,000 miles."
Keep us posted. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
Said another way, empirical claims either way are just what the word implies (i.e. not confirmed [but potentially confirmable] via scientific study), and as such, you won't really know. Errr, "you won't really know" unless you know someone who has your same year car with your same engine and drives the same number of miles in the same manner that you do and uses the same oil you are ultimately going to decide upon AND has performed oil analysis on his/her car.
Now, as for the whole "cost" issue. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the sense that you are only looking at the cash aspect of actual oil and filter as the "cost", and not the labor and your time spent not doing other things. Assuming that is true, then you might want to consider applying a dollar value to your time and then recalculate your costs. My bet is that when you do, you'll find that moving to a full synthetic and then using a 10,000 or even a 12,000 mile OCI will be more cost effective than your current OCI with Dino Juice.
If you decide that new cost figures for 10K or 12K OCIs fit within your budget, then I'm not sure I'd even bother with the oil analysis given the wealth of evidence that those mileage numbers are well within the capabilities of a good Synthetic.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Regarding which Mobil 1 to use, this might could well be a good case where oil analysis will be the determining factor. Personally I'd use Mobil 1 0W-40, but I cannot claim any science (other than the BMW LL-1 certification) to support that statement.
Best Regards,
Shipo
FWIW, switching from 5W-30 to 0W-30 (i.e. German made Castrol Syntech) is really a non issue. All else being equal, both oils will protect just as well when hot, while the 0W-30 will flow easier when cold, so if anything, the 0W-30 is better for your engine than the recommended oil.
Best Regards,
Shipo
The oils I've been looking at are Castrol Edge (the new one this year), Mobil 1, Penzoil and Shell Helix. :confuse:
Until I see Pennzoil meeting the VW 503.01 and BMW LL-4 specs, I'll continue to be think of them as a Tier-2 provider of synthetic oils. Does that mean that they really are? Nope. That's just my opinion of them. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
I'm paying more like $5.25 to $5.50 at Autozone for Mobil 1 0W-40 and I think I remember seeing the German Castrol form a quarter or so less than that.
Best Regards,
Shipo
What I would do (or said another way, what I have done) is go with either the Mobil 1 0W-40 or the German Castrol Syntech 0W-30. FWIW, according to a test that I read last year, the Castrol is a "little long" on the 30 side and the Mobil 1 is a "little short" on the 40 side. Said another way, the Castrol is something like 0W-33 and the Mobil 1 is something like 0W-37.
Thinking about your specific situation a little further, back when your car was built, "ZeroW-anything" oils were fairly exotic (and still are to a certain extent) so it isn't at all surprising that 5W-30 was specified for your engine as that was pretty much the best then generally available. My current daily driver was built in 1998 as well and it too has 5W-30 and 10W-30 specified. That having been said, I got my first BMW back in 1999 and started buying Mobil 1 0W-40 in 2000 (via the internet only), and that is when I converted the DGC over to synthetic oil. What this means in real terms is that I now have over 90,000 miles on this engine using an oil that exceeds the recommended specifications at both ends. Could that be why this engine is still running so damn strong (it hit 111,111 miles yesterday)? Maybe.
I suppose this is the other side of the sword regarding synthetic oil. I'm currently driving about 2,500 miles per month and assuming that I stay where I am from a home and work perspective, that number will grow to more like 3,500 per month in September of 2007 (the folks I'm working for have just broken ground on a new corporate campus further from my home). I'd love to justify a new car (in spite of the fact that its value would plummet with all of the miles I'm driving), however, the old Dodge is running just as well now as the day we drove it out of the showroom in 1998. If I hadn't used the synthetic oil (but stuck with the longer OCIs that I use), I'm sure that I'd be in serious need of a new car by now. Do you suppose I should buy some rot-gut oil and a $1.00 Fram oil filter and drive for the next year without changing it? ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
Gee, I suppose I could be the one to pony up and have the analysis done. I'm currently nearing 2,000 miles on my current oil (Mobil 1 0W-40), maybe I should run it to say 7,500, and then change it out early (or at least earlier than I normally would), and then have analysis done on it (mid t late June timeframe). At that change I could then go for a fill of the Mobil 1 Extended oil and run it for 7,500 as well (which would probably take until early to mid September) and then have the analysis run on it. For each of the two oils I'll have two tests performed, one with unused oil and the second with 7,500 miles on it. Stay tuned.
Best Regards,
Shipo
15w-40 is the preferred weight.Are there synthetics for a diesel? All I've found so far are dino oils. :confuse:
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_Turbo_Diesel_Truck_5W-- 40.aspx
http://www.rotella.com/products/rotella_t_synthetic.html
Regarding running extended intervals, there are a few folks around here (TownHall) that run more like 25,000 miles on an oil change with their diesels (assuming fully synthetic oil). In fact, one of those individuals has a fleet of diesel cars and trucks and has had very good results with the extremely long OCIs.
Best Regards,
Shipo