This is a no brainer. The Focus is unproven, unreliable, has a hacker design, a terrible 5-speed, a joke for an interior, poor mileage, and an old school American dealer network. Next.
Freeze the thread? In my 1.5yrs I 've been here I think this is the first time I 've seen someone ask to freeze a topic. No offense but it sounds pretty funny. To ask to delete offensive posts (if you interpret them so..) is one thing, but to freeze the whole topic is another!
eludwig: very forward and to the point. I tend to agree with most of your points.
'99 Integra GSR '06 Civic LX coupe '11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive '13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
Friends, the topic here is the comparison of the Ford Focus and the Honda Civic hatchback. It's an opportunity to compare these competing models, primarily started to help folks who were trying to choose between the two.
Other models, European cars, other hatchback markets, etc. are off topic. At the moment, I'm not going to go back and scribble them all.
Let's regroup and look to the future. I'd hate to have to pull the plug when most of this is useful information. Thanks!
Rex12 - let's dig the warpipe or whatever! I hope you have a great time in Provence. I've spent 3 years there, and there are lots of nice twisty roads to drive on. Have a nice time!
My only points in bringing up the 'Euro' hatches were: - the Focus 'comes' from Europe. As such, it has been designed and marketed towards a very 'hatch'-oriented market. This goes for 'the other' non-Japanese hatch sold in the US as well. The Focus has had tremedous success in Europe (just like the Civic hatch) and was elected 'car of the year' if I'm not mistaken... I DO think it's relevant to point out the success of those cars in other markets as far as it serves the purpose of the discussion...
I have admittedly talked at length of my wish to see more hatchbacks in the US but shall continue that discussion in the 'Those we don't get in the US' column!
Good luck to y'all, Honda and Focus fans! (they are both good, just very different!)
the focus is a world -class vehicle ,with a cutting-edge design,well-thought-out interior a silky-smooth 5spd. shifter,with more than respectable mileage,available through one of the greatest distribution networks on the face of the earth.it has been proven and is extremely reliable. my prediction-look for all the foreign copycat model hatchbacks to follow. ford has struck gold with the zx3. there is no better hatch at this price point and probably never will be. dont kid yourself the zx3 is definitely taking a bite out of civic sales. the beauty part is honda will never be able to compete to put out a well-equipped hatch like the zx3 for the same dollars.that to me represents the "new market share".
You are making my point for me. When an intelligent response is rebutted by defensiveness and unnecessary attacks, then the thread loses its purpose, and posting becomes pointless. If one point is rebutted by well thought out counterpoint, then there aren't any problems. One poster in particular on this board has taken it upon theirself to counter every pro-ZX3 post with the former type of response.
To this thread, many of us have added good points on both sides. Many of us have made conciliatory statements such as "I like Hondas, but..." or "The ZX3 might be a good car, but..." However, said poster has decided that he will attack all points which are counter to his. It is immature and pointless, and has rendered this thread useless because no real discussion can occur with that poster cluttering up the flow with their constant attacks.
I, for instance, have brought in quotes from magazines, empirical evidence, and personal experience to make points about the subject. For this, I am accused of having nothing to add and told to "get a life!" Is this constructive? My only critcism was to say that this poster was countering a point by misquoting it...which is true. Again I and others are attacked.
Hence my request. It was meant mostly in jest, but partly so that you might remind us to stay on topic, and that this is a discussion board, where people "discuss" things.
Instead of whining why not drop the attitude and defend the following statement "Ford has tapped a new market share." Do it within relation to the topic. Your english knowledge is commendable but, has no place in this topic.
What is this, the fourth time I have asked you to put something behind this statment you chose to defend, or is there no defense? Seriously, how can the topic be worth anything if you can spew anything you want, and your only defense is that I rephrased my question in a way you could misinterpret if you wanted.
I'm sorry for telling you to add nothing, add something...PLEASE!
Buried. As you can tell, there are quite a few more Focus posters than there are Civic posters. Sometimes they are blinded by their excitment for their new car and refuse to accept the facts.
While the Focus may be a very good car over the long run, I will gladly wait in my Civic knowing basic maintenance is all it will need for the next 100,000 miles. Yes, there are exceptions but, they are few relative to the number of cars they sell. The car is only as boring as the driver. If you want to make a Civic a rocket little is needed. Another aspect few (no one I have seen) bring up is the ability (if you so choose) to fix a Honda yourself. As far as small cars go I cannot imagine an easier car to work on. Parts are readily available and cheap.
I would LOVE to get talk in depth with you about Provence. Please email me at teamk2@earthlink.net.
...for bringing some discussion to the table. I did not make the statement about market share, but I will try to defend it. The market for performance oriented hatches until now was essentially the Civic and the Golf/GTI. I don't count Integras, Celicas, and the like because they don't look like hatches, and, therefore, don't carry the hatch stigma.
Ford, to my surprise, was bold enough to bring the ZX3 over here (something they almost didn't do). With Honda exiting the hatch market for the 2001 model year, there is a gap in the market that can only be filled by one of the two remaining cars--the VW or the ZX3. Both are good cars, but Ford has been smart enough to price the ZX3 at a point where they will sell a higher volume, thereby eating up much of the market share which will be vacated by Honda. It's that simple.
For under 15,000, the ZX3 is a GREAT car. I reiterate that I have never been a fan of domestic cars. My family only owned one in my life, and it was a piece. I actually still have a hard time adjusting to the fact that I drive a "Ford." Believe me, however, this car is different. I have not heard that you've driven one--as both silver and I have driven Civics extensively--but I think you ought to give it a try. It is a FUN car.
As far as reliability goes...This has always been my major concern with American cars. I had a Toyota that I sold with 180,000 on it, and it still ran like a champ. In Europe, Ford has a very good reputation for reliability. This car has been there since 1998, and has not been known to have problems. Whether you believde it or not, this IS a Ford of Europe automobile. All specs and materials are exactly the same, with slight modifications in springs to adjust for road quality. So far, 3500 trouble-free miles. I'll keep you posted. If I have reliability issues, I'll be the first to be pissed off.
I am waiting for my Z. I will be driving a very long commute (at least 2K a month...blowing thru the warrenty very quickly. I am wondering who has the most miles on their Z. (and of course what probs having)> I'd like to know perhaps what I can expect.
No, I have not taken a drive in a Focus. I won't unless someone I know purchases one. In my mind there is no reason to. I will not buy an American car unless I am given a VERY good incentive. (Fun is not an incentive, not when I can have fun and know it will be a champ in 5 years)
I like the fact that, my car will be worth something down the road. Resale was another factor in my purchase decision. I looked up the price of a 95 Civic hatch with 100,000 miles and was impressed with the resale numbers. The number were actually quite impressive when compared to other cars I was considering (Golf, Neon, & Protege). I know I will not have 100,000 miles on my car in 5 years but, if I do it will still be worth a good percentage of it's inital cost.
Maybe in other parts of the Country but not here. Not with Dearborn 15 minutes away. They really are a dime a dozen. Their are far fewer Civic hatches than there are Focus.
Rex12, you may live in the only place where Fords outnumber Hondas ZX3s are pretty rare here in Houston, where everyone seems to think you have to drive a 7000 lb. truck to pick up 40 lbs. of groceries. I agree that Honda has it all over Ford regarding resale. Like Togneter, I still can't believe I own a Ford, but I'm quite pleased with my Z. Sure hope I don't have to sell it, though, because there isn't enough history to establish a used market for the Focus. Time will tell.
Do I ever know it! I have worked for a number of ad agencies. The one I used to work for did Texas and Texas Outstate Ford ads. No special edition Lincolns or Mustangs, nope, not in Texas, they've got one million F-150 Dallas Cowboy trucks though! Every year, a new F-150. Every Thanksgiving truck ads, truck ads, truck ads. If I had some money I tell ya what I'd do...blahblahblah.
I used to own a CRX so I know a little about Honda's in the South.(Talking with fellow CRX owners.) I can't imagine having a car with an engine that wouldn't die and a body that takes forever to rust. How nice it would be.
Then again, I love the snow!
It is pretty funny to go out of state and see all the other cars that flood the roads. I live close (within 10 miles) of the GM Truck & Bus plant. What do I see everywhere? Tahoes, Escalades, Suburbans, S-10's...etc.
My friend is a designer for DC and drove a 318ti, they make you park in a lot about 100 yards farther from the door if you drive a foreign car.
Firstly, I like to say that I am a zx-3 owner and I like my car, but in no way am I 'blind' of plain facts.
Face Facts:
1. Honda Civic is a better built car than a Focus
2. Honda has a much better reputation than Ford of making intelligent, fun to drive, well engineered cars
3. Honda makes better engines and transmissions (5 spd only) than Ford
4. A honda civic will last 10 years if you treat it right and some kid will buy it and it will last another 5. The zx-3 will be long gone by then.
5. Honda Civic will have a better resale
6. The Civic will be more reliable
I have a zx-3 for basically a few reasons:
1. It is an exciting, fun, reasonably built, thoughtfully engineered and not too expensive car
2. It is a neat looking car and practical
3. Interior room is fantastic...I am 6 foot 3 and there is no way I could fit in a Honda Civic.
With Luck, the new Civic will be much improved and more spacious and in a hatch form.
I basically do not understand all the fuss about 2 good cars. Both cars can be modified and performance can be dramatically improved.
My only comment regarding if Ford is on to something is this: I bought a Ford zx-3 with my hard earned money and if I bought it ....then they are on to something because I am nobody's fool.
Ok....I just walked into that. I welcome all comments. I can take it. I won't be upset. I can defend myself!!
BTW: In Europe, honda doesn't exactly have a stellar reputation. Europeans find them boring. Isn't it interesting that different areas of the world have dramatically different tastes. I personally think the Civic is the only good looking honda. The rest are just plain. Have Fun
No way you'd fit into a Civic at 6'3"? I have a friend who's 6'4" and he doesn't have a problem. (He doesn't have to lay back in the seat.)
Looking at comparison charts at Honda's site I see the Ford as having .5 of an inch more headroom and .4 of an inch more leg room. That's less than an inch and you couldn't fit in the Honda? You must be packed in the Focus?
Maybe I'm missing something (I'm sure you all have a comment on that.)
I'm 6' and can't imagine another 3" making the car undriveable. Then again, you're the one with the experience.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences on both cars. I agree with you almost completely but I have a little problem with your comment that you won't fit in a Civic. I'm 6'2 and still have 2" left of headroom in my '97 hatchback! The '96-00 hatchbacks have 1.5" more headroom than the last generation Civics! The Civic hatchback has really amazing headroom for a compact. The coupes have less but are still not bad. In the coupe I have about 1" of headroom left. Twice that much in my HB. Now the proof that a 6'3 man fits in a Civic: My brother is 6'3 and has no problem fitting in my HB. He 's been in my car several times. He still has some headroom left and has never complained. Now I can see if you 're really big all around and maybe don't fit in the seat too well. The seats are not really for overweight people. I 'm 210lbs and I think if I were 20-30lbs heavier or a little wider I 'd be sticking out of the seat and it wouldn't support me too well. Anyway I got 102K mi. on mine and my way to 103K. I do about 40k mi/yr! About Europian Hondas: I don't know if you guys know this but I 'll educate some of you since you keep mentioning Hondas in Europe.. Honda only exports the Si and VTi(hbk) Civics in Europe with the 160 & 170hp (Integra GSR's) engines. They don't bother with the 106 & 127hp engines like we have here. Because of this, they tend to be more expensive and are not quiet as popular as in the US but nevertheless they 're still relatively popular. My brother was in Greece last year and said he saw many Civic VTi hatchbacks over there. He also said that it's not considered an entry level car and that many people drewl over the Civic VTi - probably because of its power in such a small light car. There are many other smaller displacement and less powerful cheaper cars to chose from (1.3 & 1.5L are still popular engines there from Italian and French manufacturers). He also said many people (we have relatives there so we get the scoop on cars) buy Daewoo and Keas as their first car too. Another reason Europeans get the faster Civics (and Integras, they only have the Type-R over there!) is because of the higher speed limits. Could you imagine exporting 106hp Civics to Germany? Now a Civic with the GSR 1.8L 170hp engine is just about adequate for Germany :-) I 'll be there in 2mos for vacation (and maybe Italy too) so I 'll get a pretty good idea of what people like to drive over there.
'99 Integra GSR '06 Civic LX coupe '11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive '13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
I'm 6'5", and used to fit in my Civic CX just fine, but most of my height is legs, and I was just able to fit them around the stering wheel once I tilted it up. I really like the room and more upright seating position in my ZX3, and the fact that I'm not sitting on the ground anymore. Surprisingly for what seems to be a tall car, the Focus corners in a nicely controlled manner.
If Honda would have brought the Type R Civic hatch to the U.S. (in white, with those bright red Recaro seats), I'd probably still be a Honda pilot.
my preference is the raised seating of the focus. both honda +vw have a very low on the floor seating.my father owned the first honda entry compact a 2dr. 600cc engine with a 4spd. built-in the dash.honda has come a long way with the civic.i respect those opinions defending the civic but not at the expense of apologizing for buying a ford product.i thank all the suv ford buyers who profited ford to be able to build a hatch at such a great price point.now that even gas prices are soaring its another plus to own a quality roomy small vehicle. .
Your points are well taken. I am surprised that people taller than me can fit in a Civic CX. I find the steering wheel interferes with my legs during braking and clutching activities in a Civic. I last sat in a Civic in the SUmmer of '99 in a showroom and I had to rule it out due to lack of space. Only 2 small cars available in the USA stood a chance with me...the VW GOlf and ZX-3 (not the Focus sedan---it is North American requirement for marketing and not the true and pure design intention of the Focus by the Ford Team in terms of exterior design).
My conclusion about specs: I believe specifications provided by the manufacturer of head room and leg room can be very misleading.
I found the zx-3 to be great for comfort for me and by no means am I packed in. The height adjustment, and tilt telescoping steering wheel makes it a 'homerun' for me to fit in it. One of the most comfortable cars under 20 K for me. Even more comfortable than a Toyota Camry. I too like the high seating position of the zx-3 and hope the new Honda will be similar.
Japanese small cars tend to be low and that is fine, but personally, I find them hard to sit in. I am an athletic and slim 40 year old for your information. The zx-3 is refreshing for me.
There are so many interesting Euro Cars like the Renault Clio or Puegeot 206 that have this high seating position and are space defying for their size. The Focus shares this attribute.
Still, I like the Honda a lot. I always am impressed with the Hatch back and wish it came in a EX trim or an SI version like in the old days. It is a smashing looking car and dead reliable. It is an awesome car. You got to love that engine and transmission. It is so seamless and silky. Runs forever. I could go on and on and sing the praises of Honda.
Still, I own a zx-3 and I am darn proud of it too. I think it is the start of Ford finally waking up to make good cars and not just good trucks (The explorer has horrible handling, mileage, space and is frustrating to drive....but it IS solid).
norway- i also own a zx2 with a zetec -40,000 mi. its never seen the service dept.since the day it was delivered.i wouldnt sweat the reliability of the focus.if were around in a few yrs.we will more than likely be still singing the praises of our purchase.unless of course we trade one for that future turbo model.now,thats something to look forward to.
Just remember, true quality of the car starts at 100,000 miles. Those Hondas last a long time.
I am not sweating on the reliability. I researched my purchase and weighed the pros and cons of the purchase of a zx-3. I think the quality is very good, but I do not want to 'say something' that I do not have any basis of fact.
Remember the Ford 3.8 L v6. They are causing lots of problems for owners now after many years and no doubt a lot of miles.
I think the ztec 2.0L is a good engine. Was it designed in England? I am not sure.
I just hope we will be singing in 3-4 years.
Actually if I stay so happy with my zx-3, then I will buy the turbo model and still keep my current z as my daily commuter. I think the turbo model (or High output z) will be a cult classic of the first order.
I have a feeling the Focus will prove to be a little more reliable that the rest of the Ford products but I saw another ZX3 again this morning on the highway and really studied it this time as I was behind it and next to it for a while. I 'm sorry but it doesn't do anything for me. To me it looks very much like a station wagon and a minivan. It doesn't look like a true hatchback and it doesn't look sporty at all. It just doesn't attract me a bit just like many of you are not attracted by a Civic hatchback. To me it's a family car/station wagon/minivan and cannot personally compare it to a hatchback. The Golf and Civic (and Impreza) far more represent true sporty like hatchbacks. The ZX3 leans towards the family grocery getter class too much and it just looks too much like a darn minivan! Enjoy your cars.
'99 Integra GSR '06 Civic LX coupe '11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive '13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
to- onlyoneharry- what is your criteria for reliability? what fords have you owned that were not reliable? i will admit my bias towards ford engines,my experience has always been a pleasant one.starting with a torino,pinto,fairmont,mustang, festiva,tempo,zx2 and now focus zx3.they were all manual, no air,except mustang auto+air.you can tell they hooked me when i was a youngster.i have owned other mfg. models as well.i can only give an opinion and evaluation based on my own individual experiences.it only means that that any car can potentially be a lemon or reliable.in my opinion, + experiences,fords strengths has always been their engines + trans.however,the suspension i thought was not up to par with others.this is where the imports bmw,vw,honda,etc.always had it right.the communication of road feel + handling.more of a drivers car.i dont believe ford got this right till the focus.i,like many others that have posted here and the other forums,were considering other vehicles.i was seriously considering a honda.i had a dollar threshold i was sticking to.for my money the zx3 is hard to beat.
There have been at least 3, which is way too many for a supposed new world order car. And if you read the ZX-3 posts, there seems to be a lot of young uns who spend their $$$ modifying their Zx-3s with green brake pads, exhaust systems, etc...Sorry, I am seem stodgy to you, but gimme the civic h/b as is from the factory and i'm happy. Put has it in, drive it as is and i;ll see you on the other side of 200,000 miles.
sach1- recall was a pro-active response by ford. i only know of two.whats the other?first had to do with cars equipped with cruise. second was for an injector sensor that had a possible potential problem.not really a big deal.most were corrected before delivery or before they left factory.a civic is a boring,vanilla ride as is from factory.its a typical honda cookie-cutter hatch.reliable but not all that much fun to drive.
I think modifying your car is a great idea as long as you do not void your warranty. I hope people are taking great care when they make mechanical modifications to their cars. I would be worried about modifying my brake system. I want the car to stop in an emergency or at any other time.
Fun to drive: This can mean a lot of things. I think a lot of Civic drivers enjoy their cars because of the quality of their switchgear, their steering and the knowledge that they bought a top notch car. Fun to drive is a state of mind and an experience.
The z is definitely an upstart in the hatch back world and it needs to be proven prior to people saying bad things or good things about it. My initial (after 3500 miles) feeling is that it is a true bargain in the automotive market. But....cars should be bullet proof for at least 100,000 miles.
One thing for sure is that people tend to defend their purchase with too much vigor. The civic owner says one thing and then a z owner comes back and gives an opposing view. It is so predictable. Can we not talk about each car in such a way that it is not insulting to each other?
Both are good cars. The civic is proven to be a fabulous value over time and the z has been praised for its excellent driving dynamics and perhaps good quality.
I think people are very passionate about their z and that is an excellent sign that Ford built a winner.
The Ford recalls have been very minor and are part failures or installation errors and not a quality issue. Bad installation or inconsistent installation is a quality issue. The part was thought to be correct and within spec or it was thought the part was installed correctly, but further research indicated it was not right.
norway- im just stating my preference.i do not like the overall civic ride compared to the z. i dont think 100,000 miles is a test of reliability.my 2dr.1988 5spd.no air tempo ran 144,000.normal, routine maintenance,brakes,tires,1 battery,one defective hood latch around 50,000mi. that i might add ford fixed free of charge after warrranty.i wont bore you about the rest of my fords.there is no doubt in my mind that the z is a bona fide winner.i do not have to defend my purchase but im also not going to let someone slam the z without a counterpoint.vanilla is not so bad,to me just bland.if everyone was the same and every car was the same,it would be quite a boring world.welcome the competition,it makes a better car and a better human being.i have already stated that the civic is a fine car.having owned many fords,i will be the first to admit,the z is a very unford-like vehicle. you can thank honda for making ford re-think how a quality small car should be.theres that competition thing again.im sure honda will respond, but i dont believe they can bring a comparably equipped hatch at the same price point.
Regarding your comment: "you can thank honda for making ford re-think how a quality small car should be."
I am not really partial to either car, but I just thought I'd qualify your comment.
I bet Honda had little if any influence at all on Ford's Focus. You have to remember that this car originated in 'hatchland' i.e. Europe, to compete with a large number of quality hatches. As I've said before, the Honda Civic is 'just another hatch' in Europe. Yes, Honda is considered reliable in Europe too. But in general, Europeans consider the Civics and other Japanese hatches as bland. (A term I have often heard used to qualify Japanese cars in Europe was 'sexless'.) Also, it seems that Europeans tend to go for looks and performance a lot more than their American counterparts. This in RELATIVE terms of course. But that a car should 'survive' 100,000 miles is not a major selling point in Europe. I think it's because Americans tend to view cars as more utilitarian than the Europeans do and are therefore more focused on reliability (the American market is also more 'conservative' and less open to innovative design, - in general). But anyway, back to the point: Ford needed an 'eyecatcher' to compete with the other succesful hatches in Europe, mainly the Golfs, the Peugeot 205 and 306, Renault Clio, which are very popular. Strangely, in Europe, Ford has a reputation for making bland and 'art nouveau' cars alike. Quite confusing, really... On the 'art nouveau' side: Ford Sierra, Scorpio, Ka, Focus. On the bland: Fiesta (BIG time bland!), Escort... The Focus is considered by Europeans to be just as 'revolutionary' in its visual aspect as it is here. Some people love it, some aren't too mad about it (including myself). The fact that the US hatch market is neglected by car manufacturers.. no one will disagree about that. But to me, it's rather funny to see that the 'inexpensive' hatch market is fought out between two cars which in Europe are on two opposite sides of the 'hatch spectre'. On one side, proven reliability, 'old' 'sexless' design, and on the other, a car with a purposely bold design. I bet that Ford's decision to sell this car in the US was not intended from the car's inception. But unlike many of the other 'inexpensive' hatch manufacturers in Europe, Ford is already established in the US, with dealerships and all. To me, it seems like it was a logical step to 'test' the Focus in the US, based on the positive reviews it received in Europe.
My previous post suffers a bit from my 'bad english'... apologies for that! Please replace the word 'sexless' by 'gender-less': a more accurate translation.
are you calling the civic a eunuch? i only called it vanilla.my reference to influence has to do with the japanese imports in the u.s.lets be honest, the european vehicle has an appeal and market at a different price level than the civic or focus.i will explain it this way,you can thank all the japanese auto mfg.for making high quality reliable cars when the u.s. was still producing gas guzzlers during the 70's gas crisis.they came,they sold,they conquered and earned a well-deserved reputation. you cant deny the facts.now,ford has,as norway stated in a previous post that ford is finally waking-up. to answer rex12-cookie-cutter is not really such a bad thing-good,reliable transportation,very spartan + utilitarian.not a real drivers vehicle.just my impression,thats all. the z to me is more comfortable + fun to drive.
The ZX-3 turns out to be a reliable car, i sincerely hope this happens as I hate to see anyone waste their money. If I were buying a car today, it would be a hatchback and it would be a Civic. Nothing against the ZX-3, but the civic has been around long enough to be a known quantity. This will happen to the ZX-3 as well. I am disappointed that Ford did not offer the CVT tranny in the Focus as the company said it would. The CVT in the Honda HX has proven itself to be an innovative and gas-saving piece of technology. Anyone know if CVT will be offered on the '01 Focus. cheers/
While the hatch market suffers here, there are very good reasons. We have SUV's (I hate them). For the most part, European roads are too small for our huge trucks and the gas prices are too high. Perhaps the hatch will fare better with raising gas prices? I know that Ford definately hit the market at the right time with the Focus (As I believe Daimler Chrysler did with the PT Cruiser.)
BTW I think in general, Europeans think they (and the products they produce) are sexier than the rest of the World. I don't think it has much to do with anything other than their perception of themselves.
It seems you guys just can't take ANY form of 'unbiased' views about Japanese cars, and especially Honda. In my former post (if you read it), I just explained how the Japanese hatches are 'regarded' in Europe. It was intended at someone saying that Honda had influenced Ford's Focus, which I believe is incorrect. I don't make this up.. it's based on my perception of the market 'at home'.
If you reread the post which obviously 'ticked you off', you'd see that I have a neutral opinion about Ford vs. Honda. Personally, I actually might go for the civic over the ZX3, but that has really nothing to do with it.
Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder anyway, and most European cars are produced for the domestic markets, and therefore are designed accordingly. Even the Corolla is 'Europeanized' in Europe. (a completely different car from its US sister.)
Well, I can certainly accept unbiased views about Japanese cars. There aren't many of them here though.
I'm not ticked. (Or wasn't that directed towards me?)
I can't think of many sexy American cars. Viper? Maybe? Vette? Not sexy, bold, brash, sexy? Naahh I don't think so.
The only car I would consider sexy would be a Ferrari maybe an NSX. Ferrari for sure though. In my mind anything I can afford isn't sexy (other than my wife)
The Civic hatch bland? I really don't think so. There is SO much you can do to make it any kind of car you want. I just don't see how that is bland. The Civic coupe, I could see it as being bland but not when you (again) take aftermarket in to consideration.
Then again, there is a thread near the bottom of the page started by someone who loved her Festiva so beauty is really in the eye of the beholder. (Look at the Pontiac Aztec) YYYYUUUUUCCCCCKKKKK!!!!!
I think it bears mentioning (again) that I live in an area where the Focus is not uncommon. You see about the same amount of Civic hatches as you do Focus hatches.
I never used the word 'sexy' but sex-less, and later corrected it to 'gender-less'. Judging whether this car or that is 'sexy' is so subjective, that I agree we shouldn't get started on that discussion (some people will rightfully say that they never thought about sex when looking at a car). The European and US car markets are just so extremely different. I don't think a lengthy debate on that issue is relevant in this column though. It just struck me as 'interesting' that the most 'in your face' hatch that I remember from Europe (the Focus) is head to head with one which is considered very 'conservative' in Europe. That's all.
And about 'after-market'... personally, I'm not really into that, and probably never will be. I'm the 'buy and forget' type of person, and will willingly spend some more money to get a sportier model from the factory than worry about mods. The Civic, in my mind, is a great looking hatch, with a reliability to match. Personally though, I regret that more powerful Civics aren't available from the factory, which is why I'm probably going to get an Integra GSR, Golf 1.8t or Vr6 (probably one of the latter, as I really like the Golfs). If and when I decide to 'upgrade', I'm most certainly getting an S4. See? I'm not biased in the Civic/ZX3 discussion at all...
I think we have been taking a lot of critisism on the Civic from the Focus people and we 've been pretty cool about it. What's funny is that Sunday, on my way home from autocross racing in my GSR, there was a young kid trying to race me in his (or mom's) ZX3!! We were right at the beginning of a nice 2 lane twisty road that goes for about 3 miles before it straightens out and the speed limit drops to 45, and goes through town, etc. I let him pass me (he was going like 70+) and I just followed him by staying right at his rear door/fender (blind spot, hehe). He kept accelerating faster and faster and he knew I was there because he could hear my Cold air intake and he kept looking in his side mirror. Then his car starting leaning dangerously and his tires were squealing so I figure it was time to pass him or pull back more so he wouldn't hit me in case he lost control and that's when I noticed the aftermarket exhaust on!! I couldn't believe my eyes and I was exactly sure if it was one or not but after reading about the mods they 're doing I have no doubit what that was.. That made me decide to blow by him on a nice turn, sped up a little and then slowed down again. Wouldn't you know it? He comes after me again and tries to pass me. I guess he thought he was driving a Sports car and could take on an Integra. Well as much as I hate admitting it, this forum was going through my mind at the time and I couldn't believe I was being challenged by a Focus! To make a long story short I just had enough and sped up so I couldn't see him in my rear view mirror anymore. I hope he didn't crash because when the road straightened out I didn't see him come out but then again I got off a few hundred yards after that. I suspect there 'll be more where that came from with other Focus drivers modding their cars. I guess some young Civic drivers do the same so why not Focus ones? I also think that it's not a good idea challenging someone who had just gone through some really intense racing/driving in auto-xing because they 're pumped up and the adrenaline is running even an hour or two later.. but he couldn't have known that :-)
'99 Integra GSR '06 Civic LX coupe '11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive '13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
alpharomeo- what european cars besides vw,bmw,saab, mercedes,are sold in such large numbers in the u.s. there is no competition for the focus other than the japanese imports.the japanese imports are the vehicles that influenced the u.s. mfg. to build better,more reliable vehicles not the european cars.speaking of sexy euro imports,i almost forgot how about that yugo + renault le car? those two got the u.s. car mfg.scrambling for the designers board.rex12-i do not like suv either. the standard civic is bland to me thats all.its just my feelings.i respect your view.everybody has a different feeling.feelings are neither right or wrong,they just are.with all due respect alpharomeo,the europeans make fine autos,but at this price point they offer no competition like the japanese.
What you say is correct for the US. If you think about it, Ford is a 'multinational' car company - just as omnipresent in the US as in Europe. Bringing the Focus to the US was 'easy' in that sense. Funny, but my point wasn't to put eurohatches on a piedestal... I just commented on something which was said and thought I'd rectify it... that's all. As to why there aren't 'other' European manufacturers in the US selling hatches or small cars... that's a debate for another forum. Let's just say that in economic terms, the entry cost to the US is huge: big investments required, coupled with a huge risk. The fact that we may see Alfas in the US again is simply due to their 'association' via Fiat and GM. Honestly, I personally doubt that they'll ever make it back to the US again. Alfa's crappy image of the past still clings to the cars...
A lot of zx3 owners are pretty passionate about their cars and a bit naive to be racing an Integra. Of course naive spelt backwards is Evian. So you just never know?
ND Zx-3 owner with a BMW chrome tip on his muffler (gotta be worth 5 HP and 5 ft-lbs at least)
Any smart/knowledgeable ZX3 owner would not race a GSR, although if his car was leaning and having trouble in corners, it probably had more to do with his driving ability and knowledge of how to approach/exit a corner, seeing as the GSR and ZX3 have very similar roadholding indexes--depending on where you look. (I've seen 0.82-0.84 for the Acura and 0.81-0.82 for the Focus)
He was probably just overzealous. Plus, that was a GSR. If it was a ZX3 vs. a Civic DX, we would have a different story (and that IS what this forum's about). Also, when the Focus R comes out, we'll talk about this again...
And the chrome tip might have been just that. Do you think it was a Borla type exhaust, maybe?
Now a GS...I think that might be a little more fair...depending on the drivers. =]
Why is everyone comparing a ZX3 to the INTEGRA?? these cars compete in different price and performance catergories completely.
The ZX3 is quite a good competitor for the CIVIC HB, but I doubt many ZX3 owners are thinking they have an Integra beater.
The topic is ZX3 vs. Civic HB let's not muddy the waters. -----------------------------------------------------------------
I've owned a 93 Civic DX HB (absolutely loved it) and a 96 Civic DX Coupe (didn't so much love it) When my sister was looking for an inexpensive, fun-to-drive hatch, I steered her to the Ford dealer and she has a silver ZX3 on order. It really is an amazing car for the price.
We looked at the Civics, but hatchbacks are super scarce and you simply get a lot more for the money with the ZX3. Perhaps it won't have the super-long term reliability of the Civics, but my experience with Honda is that they are just as hit or miss as almost any other brand. Show me a dealership without service bays and you'll have the perfect car... no one is perfect, though Honda and Toyota certainly have the best reputation.
It seems like some of you guys are forgetting that not everyone buys a car and wants to keep it for 200k. Most trade in closer to 100k and I think the Focus, as well as nearly every other new car made today, can make it to 100k easily with proper maintnance.
Just my opinion, enjoy whichever you bought they're both "good" cars.
Other than the hit and miss part of Honda, the service polls don't lie, they can't. Sure they have problems but, they really are quite amazing when you consider the sheer numbers of Civics on the road and the lack of problems.
Actually, I was quite amazed at the ZX3 and it's price. I'd like the Cruise, Tach, Alloy Wheels, and the CD player. The only things I don't like are the blue oval and the service problems that accompany it. Oh yeah, I don't like the design either but, if I wanted a car just for options, I'd have waited for a ZX3.
If I just wanted to stand out in a crowd I would have got a Tiburon, at least then I'd have a 10 year 100,000 mile warranty. (Did I just say that?)
Comments
To ask to delete offensive posts (if you interpret them so..) is one thing, but to freeze the whole topic is another!
eludwig: very forward and to the point. I tend to agree with most of your points.
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
Friends, the topic here is the comparison of the Ford Focus and the Honda Civic hatchback. It's an opportunity to compare these competing models, primarily started to help folks who were trying to choose between the two.
Other models, European cars, other hatchback markets, etc. are off topic. At the moment, I'm not going to go back and scribble them all.
Let's regroup and look to the future. I'd hate to have to pull the plug when most of this is useful information. Thanks!
carlady/host
I hope you have a great time in Provence. I've spent 3 years there, and there are lots of nice twisty roads to drive on. Have a nice time!
My only points in bringing up the 'Euro' hatches were:
- the Focus 'comes' from Europe. As such, it has been designed and marketed towards a very 'hatch'-oriented market. This goes for 'the other' non-Japanese hatch sold in the US as well. The Focus has had tremedous success in Europe (just like the Civic hatch) and was elected 'car of the year' if I'm not mistaken... I DO think it's relevant to point out the success of those cars in other markets as far as it serves the purpose of the discussion...
I have admittedly talked at length of my wish to see more hatchbacks in the US but shall continue that discussion in the 'Those we don't get in the US' column!
Good luck to y'all, Honda and Focus fans! (they are both good, just very different!)
:-)
Just saw a white ZX3 on my way home. I like the design more and more...
a silky-smooth 5spd. shifter,with more than respectable mileage,available through one of the greatest distribution networks on the face of the earth.it has been proven and is extremely reliable. my prediction-look for all
the foreign copycat model hatchbacks to follow. ford has struck gold with the zx3. there
is no better hatch at this price point and probably never will be. dont kid yourself the zx3
is definitely taking a bite out of civic sales.
the beauty part is honda will never be able to compete to put out a well-equipped hatch like
the zx3 for the same dollars.that to me represents the "new market share".
To this thread, many of us have added good points on both sides. Many of us have made conciliatory statements such as "I like Hondas, but..." or "The ZX3 might be a good car, but..." However, said poster has decided that he will attack all points which are counter to his. It is immature and pointless, and has rendered this thread useless because no real discussion can occur with that poster cluttering up the flow with their constant attacks.
I, for instance, have brought in quotes from magazines, empirical evidence, and personal experience to make points about the subject. For this, I am accused of having nothing to add and told to "get a life!" Is this constructive? My only critcism was to say that this poster was countering a point by misquoting it...which is true. Again I and others are attacked.
Hence my request. It was meant mostly in jest, but partly so that you might remind us to stay on topic, and that this is a discussion board, where people "discuss" things.
That is all.
What is this, the fourth time I have asked you to put something behind this statment you chose to defend, or is there no defense? Seriously, how can the topic be worth anything if you can spew anything you want, and your only defense is that I rephrased my question in a way you could misinterpret if you wanted.
I'm sorry for telling you to add nothing, add something...PLEASE!
While the Focus may be a very good car over the long run, I will gladly wait in my Civic knowing basic maintenance is all it will need for the next 100,000 miles. Yes, there are exceptions but, they are few relative to the number of cars they sell. The car is only as boring as the driver. If you want to make a Civic a rocket little is needed. Another aspect few (no one I have seen) bring up is the ability (if you so choose) to fix a Honda yourself. As far as small cars go I cannot imagine an easier car to work on. Parts are readily available and cheap.
I would LOVE to get talk in depth with you about Provence. Please email me at teamk2@earthlink.net.
THANKS!
Ford, to my surprise, was bold enough to bring the ZX3 over here (something they almost didn't do). With Honda exiting the hatch market for the 2001 model year, there is a gap in the market that can only be filled by one of the two remaining cars--the VW or the ZX3. Both are good cars, but Ford has been smart enough to price the ZX3 at a point where they will sell a higher volume, thereby eating up much of the market share which will be vacated by Honda. It's that simple.
For under 15,000, the ZX3 is a GREAT car. I reiterate that I have never been a fan of domestic cars. My family only owned one in my life, and it was a piece. I actually still have a hard time adjusting to the fact that I drive a "Ford." Believe me, however, this car is different. I have not heard that you've driven one--as both silver and I have driven Civics extensively--but I think you ought to give it a try. It is a FUN car.
As far as reliability goes...This has always been my major concern with American cars. I had a Toyota that I sold with 180,000 on it, and it still ran like a champ. In Europe, Ford has a very good reputation for reliability. This car has been there since 1998, and has not been known to have problems. Whether you believde it or not, this IS a Ford of Europe automobile. All specs and materials are exactly the same, with slight modifications in springs to adjust for road quality. So far, 3500 trouble-free miles. I'll keep you posted. If I have reliability issues, I'll be the first to be pissed off.
long commute (at least 2K a month...blowing thru
the warrenty very quickly. I am wondering who has
the most miles on their Z. (and of course what
probs having)> I'd like to know perhaps what I can
expect.
Thanks!
I like the fact that, my car will be worth something down the road. Resale was another factor in my purchase decision. I looked up the price of a 95 Civic hatch with 100,000 miles and was impressed with the resale numbers. The number were actually quite impressive when compared to other cars I was considering (Golf, Neon, & Protege). I know I will not have 100,000 miles on my car in 5 years but, if I do it will still be worth a good percentage of it's inital cost.
I used to own a CRX so I know a little about Honda's in the South.(Talking with fellow CRX owners.) I can't imagine having a car with an engine that wouldn't die and a body that takes forever to rust. How nice it would be.
Then again, I love the snow!
It is pretty funny to go out of state and see all the other cars that flood the roads. I live close (within 10 miles) of the GM Truck & Bus plant. What do I see everywhere? Tahoes, Escalades, Suburbans, S-10's...etc.
My friend is a designer for DC and drove a 318ti, they make you park in a lot about 100 yards farther from the door if you drive a foreign car.
Face Facts:
1. Honda Civic is a better built car than a Focus
2. Honda has a much better reputation than Ford of making intelligent, fun to drive, well engineered cars
3. Honda makes better engines and transmissions (5 spd only) than Ford
4. A honda civic will last 10 years if you treat it right and some kid will buy it and it will last another 5. The zx-3 will be long gone by then.
5. Honda Civic will have a better resale
6. The Civic will be more reliable
I have a zx-3 for basically a few reasons:
1. It is an exciting, fun, reasonably built, thoughtfully engineered and not too expensive car
2. It is a neat looking car and practical
3. Interior room is fantastic...I am 6 foot 3 and there is no way I could fit in a Honda Civic.
With Luck, the new Civic will be much improved and more spacious and in a hatch form.
I basically do not understand all the fuss about 2 good cars. Both cars can be modified and performance can be dramatically improved.
My only comment regarding if Ford is on to something is this: I bought a Ford zx-3 with my hard earned money and if I bought it ....then they are on to something because I am nobody's fool.
Ok....I just walked into that. I welcome all comments. I can take it. I won't be upset. I can defend myself!!
BTW: In Europe, honda doesn't exactly have a stellar reputation. Europeans find them boring. Isn't it interesting that different areas of the world have dramatically different tastes. I personally think the Civic is the only good looking honda. The rest are just plain.
Have Fun
NorwayDoug
Looking at comparison charts at Honda's site I see the Ford as having .5 of an inch more headroom and .4 of an inch more leg room. That's less than an inch and you couldn't fit in the Honda? You must be packed in the Focus?
Maybe I'm missing something (I'm sure you all have a comment on that.)
I'm 6' and can't imagine another 3" making the car undriveable. Then again, you're the one with the experience.
Anyway I got 102K mi. on mine and my way to 103K.
I do about 40k mi/yr!
About Europian Hondas: I don't know if you guys know this but I 'll educate some of you since you keep mentioning Hondas in Europe.. Honda only exports the Si and VTi(hbk) Civics in Europe with the 160 & 170hp (Integra GSR's) engines. They don't bother with the 106 & 127hp engines like we have here. Because of this, they tend to be more expensive and are not quiet as popular as in the US but nevertheless they 're still relatively popular. My brother was in Greece last year and said he saw many Civic VTi hatchbacks over there.
He also said that it's not considered an entry level car and that many people drewl over the Civic VTi - probably because of its power in such a small light car. There are many other smaller displacement and less powerful cheaper cars to chose from (1.3 & 1.5L are still popular engines there from Italian and French manufacturers). He also said many people (we have relatives there so we get the scoop on cars) buy Daewoo and Keas as their first car too. Another reason Europeans get the faster Civics (and Integras, they only have the Type-R over there!) is because of the higher speed limits. Could you imagine exporting 106hp Civics to Germany? Now a Civic with the GSR 1.8L 170hp engine is just about adequate for Germany :-)
I 'll be there in 2mos for vacation (and maybe Italy too) so I 'll get a pretty good idea of what people like to drive over there.
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
If Honda would have brought the Type R Civic hatch to the U.S. (in white, with those bright red Recaro seats), I'd probably still be a Honda pilot.
4spd. built-in the dash.honda has come a long way with the civic.i respect those opinions defending the civic but not at the expense of apologizing for buying a ford product.i thank all the suv ford buyers who
profited ford to be able to build a hatch at such
a great price point.now that even gas prices are soaring its another plus to own a quality
roomy small vehicle.
.
My conclusion about specs: I believe specifications provided by the manufacturer of head room and leg room can be very misleading.
I found the zx-3 to be great for comfort for me and by no means am I packed in. The height adjustment, and tilt telescoping steering wheel makes it a 'homerun' for me to fit in it. One of the most comfortable cars under 20 K for me. Even more comfortable than a Toyota Camry. I too like the high seating position of the zx-3 and hope the new Honda will be similar.
Japanese small cars tend to be low and that is fine, but personally, I find them hard to sit in. I am an athletic and slim 40 year old for your information. The zx-3 is refreshing for me.
There are so many interesting Euro Cars like the Renault Clio or Puegeot 206 that have this high seating position and are space defying for their size. The Focus shares this attribute.
Still, I like the Honda a lot. I always am impressed with the Hatch back and wish it came in a EX trim or an SI version like in the old days. It is a smashing looking car and dead reliable. It is an awesome car. You got to love that engine and transmission. It is so seamless and silky. Runs forever. I could go on and on and sing the praises of Honda.
Still, I own a zx-3 and I am darn proud of it too. I think it is the start of Ford finally waking up to make good cars and not just good trucks (The explorer has horrible handling, mileage, space and is frustrating to drive....but it IS solid).
ND
I said, Ford is finally waking up to making good cars. I should have said, Ford is waking up to DESIGNING good cars.
We will have to wait if reliability is also part of the Focus design to say in all honesty, that Ford is making good cars.
ND
its never seen the service dept.since the day it was delivered.i wouldnt sweat the reliability of the focus.if were around in a few yrs.we will more
than likely be still singing the praises of our purchase.unless of course we trade one for that
future turbo model.now,thats something to look forward to.
I am not sweating on the reliability. I researched my purchase and weighed the pros and cons of the purchase of a zx-3. I think the quality is very good, but I do not want to 'say something' that I do not have any basis of fact.
Remember the Ford 3.8 L v6. They are causing lots of problems for owners now after many years and no doubt a lot of miles.
I think the ztec 2.0L is a good engine. Was it designed in England? I am not sure.
I just hope we will be singing in 3-4 years.
Actually if I stay so happy with my zx-3, then I will buy the turbo model and still keep my current z as my daily commuter. I think the turbo model (or High output z) will be a cult classic of the first order.
ND
I 'm sorry but it doesn't do anything for me. To me it looks very much like a station wagon and a minivan. It doesn't look like a true hatchback and it doesn't look sporty at all. It just doesn't attract me a bit just like many of you are not attracted by a Civic hatchback. To me it's a family car/station wagon/minivan and cannot personally compare it to a hatchback. The Golf and Civic (and Impreza) far more represent true sporty like hatchbacks. The ZX3 leans towards the family grocery getter class too much and it just looks too much like a darn minivan!
Enjoy your cars.
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
not reliable? i will admit my bias towards ford
engines,my experience has always been a pleasant
one.starting with a torino,pinto,fairmont,mustang,
festiva,tempo,zx2 and now focus zx3.they were all
manual, no air,except mustang auto+air.you can tell
they hooked me when i was a youngster.i have owned
other mfg. models as well.i can only give an opinion and evaluation based on my own individual
experiences.it only means that that any car can
potentially be a lemon or reliable.in my opinion,
+ experiences,fords strengths has always been their
engines + trans.however,the suspension i thought
was not up to par with others.this is where the
imports bmw,vw,honda,etc.always had it right.the
communication of road feel + handling.more of a drivers car.i dont believe ford got this right
till the focus.i,like many others that have posted
here and the other forums,were considering other
vehicles.i was seriously considering a honda.i had
a dollar threshold i was sticking to.for my money
the zx3 is hard to beat.
i only know of two.whats the other?first had to do with cars equipped with cruise. second was for an injector sensor that had a possible potential
problem.not really a big deal.most were corrected before delivery or before they left factory.a civic
is a boring,vanilla ride as is from factory.its a
typical honda cookie-cutter hatch.reliable but not all that much fun to drive.
I think modifying your car is a great idea as long as you do not void your warranty. I hope people are taking great care when they make mechanical modifications to their cars. I would be worried about modifying my brake system. I want the car to stop in an emergency or at any other time.
Fun to drive: This can mean a lot of things. I think a lot of Civic drivers enjoy their cars because of the quality of their switchgear, their steering and the knowledge that they bought a top notch car. Fun to drive is a state of mind and an experience.
The z is definitely an upstart in the hatch back world and it needs to be proven prior to people saying bad things or good things about it. My initial (after 3500 miles) feeling is that it is a true bargain in the automotive market. But....cars should be bullet proof for at least 100,000 miles.
One thing for sure is that people tend to defend their purchase with too much vigor. The civic owner says one thing and then a z owner comes back and gives an opposing view. It is so predictable. Can we not talk about each car in such a way that it is not insulting to each other?
Both are good cars. The civic is proven to be a fabulous value over time and the z has been praised for its excellent driving dynamics and perhaps good quality.
I think people are very passionate about their z and that is an excellent sign that Ford built a winner.
The Ford recalls have been very minor and are part failures or installation errors and not a quality issue. Bad installation or inconsistent installation is a quality issue. The part was thought to be correct and within spec or it was thought the part was installed correctly, but further research indicated it was not right.
My z was made in April and has had no recalls.
ND
the overall civic ride compared to the z. i dont
think 100,000 miles is a test of reliability.my
2dr.1988 5spd.no air tempo ran 144,000.normal,
routine maintenance,brakes,tires,1 battery,one
defective hood latch around 50,000mi. that i might add ford fixed free of charge after warrranty.i
wont bore you about the rest of my fords.there is no doubt in my mind that the z is a bona fide winner.i do not have to defend my purchase but im
also not going to let someone slam the z without a counterpoint.vanilla is not so bad,to me just bland.if everyone was the same and every car was the same,it would be quite a boring world.welcome the competition,it makes a better car and a better human being.i have already stated that the civic is a fine car.having owned many fords,i will be the first to admit,the z is a very unford-like vehicle.
you can thank honda for making ford re-think how
a quality small car should be.theres that competition thing again.im sure honda will respond,
but i dont believe they can bring a comparably
equipped hatch at the same price point.
I am not really partial to either car, but I just thought I'd qualify your comment.
I bet Honda had little if any influence at all on Ford's Focus. You have to remember that this car originated in 'hatchland' i.e. Europe, to compete with a large number of quality hatches. As I've said before, the Honda Civic is 'just another hatch' in Europe. Yes, Honda is considered reliable in Europe too. But in general, Europeans consider the Civics and other Japanese hatches as bland. (A term I have often heard used to qualify Japanese cars in Europe was 'sexless'.) Also, it seems that Europeans tend to go for looks and performance a lot more than their American counterparts. This in RELATIVE terms of course. But that a car should 'survive' 100,000 miles is not a major selling point in Europe. I think it's because Americans tend to view cars as more utilitarian than the Europeans do and are therefore more focused on reliability (the American market is also more 'conservative' and less open to innovative design, - in general).
But anyway, back to the point: Ford needed an 'eyecatcher' to compete with the other succesful hatches in Europe, mainly the Golfs, the Peugeot 205 and 306, Renault Clio, which are very popular.
Strangely, in Europe, Ford has a reputation for making bland and 'art nouveau' cars alike. Quite confusing, really... On the 'art nouveau' side: Ford Sierra, Scorpio, Ka, Focus. On the bland: Fiesta (BIG time bland!), Escort...
The Focus is considered by Europeans to be just as 'revolutionary' in its visual aspect as it is here. Some people love it, some aren't too mad about it (including myself).
The fact that the US hatch market is neglected by car manufacturers.. no one will disagree about that. But to me, it's rather funny to see that the 'inexpensive' hatch market is fought out between two cars which in Europe are on two opposite sides of the 'hatch spectre'. On one side, proven reliability, 'old' 'sexless' design, and on the other, a car with a purposely bold design.
I bet that Ford's decision to sell this car in the US was not intended from the car's inception.
But unlike many of the other 'inexpensive' hatch manufacturers in Europe, Ford is already established in the US, with dealerships and all. To me, it seems like it was a logical step to 'test' the Focus in the US, based on the positive reviews it received in Europe.
Please replace the word 'sexless' by 'gender-less': a more accurate translation.
the japanese imports in the u.s.lets be honest,
the european vehicle has an appeal and market at
a different price level than the civic or focus.i
will explain it this way,you can thank all the japanese auto mfg.for making high quality reliable
cars when the u.s. was still producing gas guzzlers
during the 70's gas crisis.they came,they sold,they conquered and earned a well-deserved reputation.
you cant deny the facts.now,ford has,as norway stated in a previous post that ford is finally waking-up. to answer rex12-cookie-cutter is not really such a bad thing-good,reliable transportation,very spartan + utilitarian.not a real drivers vehicle.just my impression,thats all.
the z to me is more comfortable + fun to drive.
BTW I think in general, Europeans think they (and the products they produce) are sexier than the rest of the World. I don't think it has much to do with anything other than their perception of themselves.
In my former post (if you read it), I just explained how the Japanese hatches are 'regarded' in Europe. It was intended at someone saying that Honda had influenced Ford's Focus, which I believe is incorrect. I don't make this up.. it's based on my perception of the market 'at home'.
If you reread the post which obviously 'ticked you off', you'd see that I have a neutral opinion about Ford vs. Honda. Personally, I actually might go for the civic over the ZX3, but that has really nothing to do with it.
Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder anyway, and most European cars are produced for the domestic markets, and therefore are designed accordingly. Even the Corolla is 'Europeanized' in Europe. (a completely different car from its US sister.)
Ah, what the heck...
I'm not ticked. (Or wasn't that directed towards me?)
I can't think of many sexy American cars. Viper? Maybe? Vette? Not sexy, bold, brash, sexy? Naahh I don't think so.
The only car I would consider sexy would be a Ferrari maybe an NSX. Ferrari for sure though. In my mind anything I can afford isn't sexy (other than my wife)
The Civic hatch bland? I really don't think so. There is SO much you can do to make it any kind of car you want. I just don't see how that is bland. The Civic coupe, I could see it as being bland but not when you (again) take aftermarket in to consideration.
Then again, there is a thread near the bottom of the page started by someone who loved her Festiva so beauty is really in the eye of the beholder. (Look at the Pontiac Aztec) YYYYUUUUUCCCCCKKKKK!!!!!
I think it bears mentioning (again) that I live in an area where the Focus is not uncommon. You see about the same amount of Civic hatches as you do Focus hatches.
The European and US car markets are just so extremely different. I don't think a lengthy debate on that issue is relevant in this column though.
It just struck me as 'interesting' that the most 'in your face' hatch that I remember from Europe (the Focus) is head to head with one which is considered very 'conservative' in Europe. That's all.
And about 'after-market'... personally, I'm not really into that, and probably never will be. I'm the 'buy and forget' type of person, and will willingly spend some more money to get a sportier model from the factory than worry about mods.
The Civic, in my mind, is a great looking hatch, with a reliability to match. Personally though, I regret that more powerful Civics aren't available from the factory, which is why I'm probably going to get an Integra GSR, Golf 1.8t or Vr6 (probably one of the latter, as I really like the Golfs).
If and when I decide to 'upgrade', I'm most certainly getting an S4. See? I'm not biased in the Civic/ZX3 discussion at all...
What's funny is that Sunday, on my way home from autocross racing in my GSR, there was a young kid trying to race me in his (or mom's) ZX3!! We were right at the beginning of a nice 2 lane twisty road that goes for about 3 miles before it straightens out and the speed limit drops to 45, and goes through town, etc. I let him pass me (he was going like 70+) and I just followed him by staying right at his rear door/fender (blind spot, hehe). He kept accelerating faster and faster and he knew I was there because he could hear my Cold air intake and he kept looking in his side mirror. Then his car starting leaning dangerously and his tires were squealing so I figure it was time to pass him or pull back more so he wouldn't hit me in case he lost control and that's when I noticed the aftermarket exhaust on!! I couldn't believe my eyes and I was exactly sure if it was one or not but after reading about the mods they 're doing I have no doubit what that was.. That made me decide to blow by him on a nice turn, sped up a little and then slowed down again. Wouldn't you know it? He comes after me again and tries to pass me. I guess he thought he was driving a Sports car and could take on an Integra. Well as much as I hate admitting it, this forum was going through my mind at the time and I couldn't believe I was being challenged by a Focus! To make a long story short I just had enough and sped up so I couldn't see him in my rear view mirror anymore. I hope he didn't crash because when the road straightened out I didn't see him come out but then again I got off a few hundred yards after that. I suspect there 'll be more where that came from with other Focus drivers modding their cars. I guess some young Civic drivers do the same so why not Focus ones? I also think that it's not a good idea challenging someone who had just gone through some really intense racing/driving in auto-xing because they 're pumped up and the adrenaline is running even an hour or two later.. but he couldn't have known that :-)
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
mercedes,are sold in such large numbers in the u.s.
there is no competition for the focus other than the japanese imports.the japanese imports are the
vehicles that influenced the u.s. mfg. to build better,more reliable vehicles not the european cars.speaking of sexy euro imports,i almost forgot
how about that yugo + renault le car? those two
got the u.s. car mfg.scrambling for the designers board.rex12-i do not like suv either. the standard
civic is bland to me thats all.its just my feelings.i respect your view.everybody has a different feeling.feelings are neither right or wrong,they just are.with all due respect alpharomeo,the europeans make fine autos,but at this price point they offer no competition like the japanese.
Funny, but my point wasn't to put eurohatches on a piedestal... I just commented on something which was said and thought I'd rectify it... that's all.
As to why there aren't 'other' European manufacturers in the US selling hatches or small cars... that's a debate for another forum. Let's just say that in economic terms, the entry cost to the US is huge: big investments required, coupled with a huge risk.
The fact that we may see Alfas in the US again is simply due to their 'association' via Fiat and GM. Honestly, I personally doubt that they'll ever make it back to the US again. Alfa's crappy image of the past still clings to the cars...
A lot of zx3 owners are pretty passionate about their cars and a bit naive to be racing an Integra. Of course naive spelt backwards is Evian. So you just never know?
ND
Zx-3 owner with a BMW chrome tip on his muffler (gotta be worth 5 HP and 5 ft-lbs at least)
He was probably just overzealous. Plus, that was a GSR. If it was a ZX3 vs. a Civic DX, we would have a different story (and that IS what this forum's about). Also, when the Focus R comes out, we'll talk about this again...
And the chrome tip might have been just that. Do you think it was a Borla type exhaust, maybe?
Now a GS...I think that might be a little more fair...depending on the drivers. =]
The ZX3 is quite a good competitor for the CIVIC HB, but I doubt many ZX3 owners are thinking they have an Integra beater.
The topic is ZX3 vs. Civic HB let's not muddy the waters.
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I've owned a 93 Civic DX HB (absolutely loved it) and a 96 Civic DX Coupe (didn't so much love it) When my sister was looking for an inexpensive, fun-to-drive hatch, I steered her to the Ford dealer and she has a silver ZX3 on order. It really is an amazing car for the price.
We looked at the Civics, but hatchbacks are super scarce and you simply get a lot more for the money with the ZX3. Perhaps it won't have the super-long term reliability of the Civics, but my experience with Honda is that they are just as hit or miss as almost any other brand. Show me a dealership without service bays and you'll have the perfect car... no one is perfect, though Honda and Toyota certainly have the best reputation.
It seems like some of you guys are forgetting that not everyone buys a car and wants to keep it for 200k. Most trade in closer to 100k and I think the Focus, as well as nearly every other new car made today, can make it to 100k easily with proper maintnance.
Just my opinion, enjoy whichever you bought they're both "good" cars.
Sporin
Other than the hit and miss part of Honda, the service polls don't lie, they can't. Sure they have problems but, they really are quite amazing when you consider the sheer numbers of Civics on the road and the lack of problems.
Actually, I was quite amazed at the ZX3 and it's price. I'd like the Cruise, Tach, Alloy Wheels, and the CD player. The only things I don't like are the blue oval and the service problems that accompany it. Oh yeah, I don't like the design either but, if I wanted a car just for options, I'd have waited for a ZX3.
If I just wanted to stand out in a crowd I would have got a Tiburon, at least then I'd have a 10 year 100,000 mile warranty. (Did I just say that?)