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Honda Civic Hatch Vs. Ford Focus ZX3
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But some credit should be given where it's due. The Focus has managed to pull some decent sales #s and that is a big achievement for a Ford product.
With the new Civic only time will tell. The new design is kind of questionable but again, that's up to individual tastes. The base model Civic is supposed to have 115hp (9hp more) and the higher end (EX?) 130+, both with increased low end torque and more standard features. Peak torque is supposed to be achieved in the 4,000's RPM range (not at 5-6K as before) and most of it will be maintained accross the whole RPM band up to redline! Anyway, we 'll know in a month or so.
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
http://www.vtec.net/news/items/422.html
focus- civic-golf.im strictly referring to body style only.what do you think?
the point of being annoying,at least to my ears.
quite frankly,ive found the zetec to be more re-
sponsive in the zx2 than the zx3.the smaller 4 in
the sedan is rather abysmal.if the ford svt boys
tweak a new engine,lets say 170hp,then you will have a nice little stock package.zetec is a nice
compromise with a little lively performace and
decent fuel economy.nothing spectacular on either
end.now the real star is the steering + road feel
with a fine-tuned suspension.
the new civic does look like a ford focus (front) and pt cruiser (rear in hatch) what i don't understand is why honda is pulling the hatch off the US market. the new hatch would be a perfect pt cruiser fighter, which has the market to itself now. and with chrysler's dependability, no matter how good looking the car is, people who wanted to buy a big (minivan like), and cheap hatch will flock to honda.
anybody from honda listening??????? i call it bad marketing???? go back to school!!!!! lol
The reason for this is that Honda has always been careful to provide excellent reliability with their cars in the US. Many Honda cars or engines debut in Japan first and about 1 year before they do in the US. This is so they can identify defects, if any, and correct them in time before they export them to the US and Canada. They have a huge reputation to protect in North America which is their most successful market (and largest one of 300M people and with the largest avg. income per capita) and they don't want to do anything to comprimise that. This is also the reason that new year models and new gen. Hondas don't come out till October in the US, where all the other manufacturers release their new models in August and some in July (I bought a '95 Galant on July 15th of '94..) The Civic SI (and its motor) have been out since '94 in various Civic models around the world. Also the Accord in Europe and Japan has optional motors with 207 and 215hp (4cyl DOHC) found in the Accord Type-R and Euro-R. These may be brought to the US as well in '02. That's fine by me. Let them iron out the bugs first and then bring them here. The Integra Type-R had come out in Sept. '96 in Japan. They didn't bring it to the US till May of '97 though. I think that 's a very good strategy. This is part of the reason Honda is so successful in North America.
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
Like only1harry points out, it may be that 'they' want to iron out the bugs in Europe or elsewhere first, but let's face it, too many exotic cars (large or small) never make it over here.
At the end of the day, I believe that it has something to do with a couple of things:
1/ US buyers are - on the average - not nearly as much car enthusiasts as their European friends overseas. (I'm not talking about the afficionados in these columns, but about the MAINSTREAM us buyer)
2/ a 'sue'em!' mentality which prevails in the US like nowhere else. A perfect example is the fact that stickshifts are equipped with a start-block feature in the US - why? easy to figure out!
The problem with the 'let's try it out elsewhere first' mentality is that it kills diversity, and at the end of the day, a 'NEW' model is really... a few years old.
Back in Europe, buyers are on average more keen to get the 'latest thing out there', even if that means that you get a few bugs with the cars. They are somewhat more apologetic of infant diseases.
At the end of the day, the people roaming these particular columns are attracted to smaller, stylish sporty cars with peppy engines and ...a stick shift. So am I. But take a drive down one of 'em dealer strips nowadays and don't tell me that you get all hot and excited from what you see... I know I don't.
I don't think you work for Honda, do you. :-)
So your theory is just as valid as mine.
I think Honda is dropping off the hatchback in order to streamline their product line and get rid of "unpopular slow selling" models.
According to the photos Honda made a good effort of trying to differentiate the hatchback from the more conservative sedan.
Assembling both models on the same assembly line brings additional tooling=costs.
Also you are saying that Honda want to eliminate the bugs before bringing the product to the U.S.
I believe that the 01'Civic is gonna be the first worldwide model launch for Honda, even if it comes to the japanese market a couple of months earlier than the american one.
Regarding the bugs. The Focus is on sale in Europe for almost 2 years. Still the U.S. Focus is not bug free at all. Why? Suppliers. It takes time for them to eliminate possible bugs too.
Honda's US Civic is not gonna have a lot of imported parts. And I doubt that Honda will start import the European performance versions.
Cost of certification and transportation plus currency fluctuations makes it too costly.
We found that the Focus had more room inside, better (fresher anyway)styling, bigger wheels, a couple of neat standard options and an (arguably) better engine in the 16 valve DOHC zetec.
On the other hand, the Civic has that good Honda history behind it, the seats fold flatter without taking up the rear cushion, and I felt that a few places showed higher quality materials (the back hatchspace cover, specifically, I thought was better)
All in all though, I was very happy with my ZX3 choice, and she was a bit envious of the looks of my car. If I'm still driving it in 13 years like she did her old car, I'll be suprised though.
Oh yeah, I paid 1,700$ less than she did, and I got more options.
We will test drive each other's cars soon and see what we think then.
The problem is that Honda is more concerned with sustaining their position in the middle-of-the-range market (4-door Civics and Accords) where they are so strong. It's all a matter of strategy as to how you want to market your products.
I'm not saying they are doing anything wrong, quite to the contrary. They'd be stupid not to concentrate on where their high-volume sales are.
Personally though, I think car manufacturers benefit from offering leading-edge novelties every now and then, because the image appeal trickles down to the more 'boring' cars of the range.
Offering 'fast' Civics (like the Si) is a way of hooking young (male?) drivers to the brand. It's a way of getting new buyers and winning brand loyalty. Likewise, on the 'high' end, you will always find 'adult kids' (like myself) who are attracted to powerful sedans. BMW and Audi's success can only attest to that - but granted, that's a completely different segment of the market - no Honda league.
Some manufacturers are 'all over the place'. I mentionned Audi, but that brand is really VW. And Volkswagen offers everthing from inexpensive hatches to extreme luxury cars (the A8, Rolls, or even the Countach). They will introduce an 8-cylinder engine on the passat this year.
So there is no 'technical' reason why Honda can't do the same. Sure, it may be that certification costs are high in the US for certain cars (I don't see where currency fluctuations come into play - it all depends where the car is built, and the US dollar has never been as strong as it is now anyway).
Some will say that Honda is too small a manufacturer and that they are the best in their playing field. I will agree to some extent. But by being too conservative and too 'bearish' they might be losing out on something very crucial to the car market. PASSION.
ONE trend in smaller cars, and namely hatchbacks over the past few years has been to prioritize functionalism in the form of increased space. The Focus is also an example of this evolution. Higher, more roomy - nearly van-like or SUV-like, like some have pointed out.
Clearly, the latest Honda hatch follows this trend.
The Megane Scenic is no beauty, but for it size, it provided dramatically improved space over traditional designs:
www.hbg.lth.se/~m97pog/poo/renault/renault/megane/scenic/scenic.htm
But they have always been on the forefront of trying out new designs. I found this site relating to the new Renault 'Avantime' ('avant' means before in French - thus, 'before its time'):
www.avantime.renault.com/anglais/flash.htm
3 liter V6/24V engine, 210 bhp and 290NM of torque (sorry, I don't have a conversion formula at hand).
S2000 is as much an image builder as the Prowler or the Viper. And this is what it is all about. These cars can bring public to the showroom and create traffic at the autoshows. This is their primary purpose.
In order to make money Honda better to shake off its conservatism and start make fast and wise desicions. Finally they are waking up to the truck-SUV craze.
Their new plant in Alabama is totally dedicated to trucks.
Can't say the same about their traditional lines.
The current Civic is still selling way too well for 5 year old design. This is what makes Honda so
hesitant to change their design direction.
The 01 looks so safe and boring. Yes it will sell well too, but will it attract the younger population as much as the 92-95 models did?
Too many of the real cool alternatives are coming to the market in every car, truck and everything inbetween segments during the next couple of years. And the aftermarket support will follow.
And this is 100% unmistakengly european, designed for the european tastes vehicle.
Do americans have a different taste?
I would say that there are plenty of people of every age in America who hate traditional trucks.
And the Focus proves the point.
euro counterparts is because the u.s. mfg. can
churn out their junk and still sell it. it wasnt
till the japanese,such as honda started to build
quality vehicles at reasonable prices to wake-up
the u.s. automakers.in my opinion, chrysler + g.m.
build less reliable vehicles than the competition.
you can make that argument when it comes to electronic products as well.vcr's and cellular phones come to mind. i can go into detail but its
off topic. computer os is another.
Hmmmmmmm....HONDA!
Who is playing catch up? Sure, Honda doesn't have the super nasty run over small cars take the extended family around the block with 10 gallons of gas SUV's that Ford does but, they are very well positioned with the CRV.
Thank you, and good day.
Not only do some Lexus and Acuras look exactly the same, but much of their design is directly drawn from Mercedes a few years back. Hardly anything that could light my fire. (and it seems they are bound to continue down this road of duplication... did anyone say 'BMW killer'????)
I don't like throwing stones at Honda, but really, they should get their act together. They have the potential brains in that company to compete head-to-head with the most glorious manufacturers out there. Unfortunately, it seems that some geeky bean counters are deciding on the strategy to use.
From what I remember from 1999 consumer satisfaction numbers. The Japanese do German better than Germany does German.
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
I never consiedered it as a SUV in the NA way.
And it's not a big money maker.(still being build in Japan with currently very unfavorable exc. rates)
It was Honda's response to the Toyota's RAV.
Designed for the Japanese market with grossly underpowered engine.
Since the gas prices are becoming more and more prohibitive small unibody SUVs are becoming more and more popular in NA.
At the same time new and vastly improved competitors are rolling out-2001 RAV and new to the market Escape/Tribute duo with the V6 option.
Yes the CRV is a bestselling small SUV for now.
But will it be able to keep it that way for long?
But will it be able to keep it that way for long?"
Nah, Honda will just let it die. (Is that what you're thinking?)
I don't recall the exact dates they were introduced but, are you sure the CRV is Honda's answer to the RAV4 or is it Honda's answer to a niche they felt needed to be filled at the same time Toyota felt it needed to be filled. At any rate, they did a hell of a job answering/filling that segment of the market.
I'm interested in numbers that back up your statement about it the CRV not being a money maker.
Thanks.
THe Ztec is a good engine and standard in the ZX3, whereas the vtechs are not even available in the Honda Hatches. I'm sure the standard Honda 4 is very good, but the ztech is an upgrade from a normal 4 cylinder.
I did say arguably!
Just it will not be as easy to maintain the bestselling status as it was before.
The profit statistics?
The automanufacturers in general don't like to make those numbers wildly available.
Especially Honda. Just about everything at Honda is a closely guarded secret. And I'm not aware of any source (unless you are an insider) where you can obtain THAT kind of information.
Therefore my statements in regards of the CRV profitability are based solely on common knowledge.
If I'm missing something, please prove me wrong.
The vtech used to be offered in Honda's hatch, if it still was this thread would be useless, the Honda would win hands down. Unfortunately, Honda abandoned the Si hatch.
If the base CR-V (according to Honda's web sight) has an M.S.R.P. of $19,500 + Tax & title, and it is built on a chassis they already make how are they not raking in the bucks? Do you think it costs them $7,000 more to make a BASE CR-V from my DX Hatch? I don't. I think they're probably doing pretty damn good.
I'm not sure about this but, does Honda have to send all of it's money back to Japan just because the vehicle was made in Japan? Can that money be funnelled to it's NA operations. If it doesn't have to be converted to Yen then the US dollar being strong has little to do with anything.
So the vehicle in general will cost you more just because it was made in Japan.
And yen is very strong nowdays, not US dollar.(in yen/dollar relation)
Those japanese workers and component supplyers have to be paid every day. I don't see any way to keep US currency earned on the Japanese made product in the US unless you use it for the expansion purposes.
It is configured that way.
Isn't the reason Honda so light heartedly dropped it off even when the rest of the manuf. are fiercely battling each other with new low cost models (Focus/Echo). The Focus was designed to be profitable at prices it is currently selling for.
Not the Honda hatch.(even if it's being build in the US by the nonunion workforce)
So that $7K gap between CRV and Civic you are talking about is much smaller.
Please, please, please, tell me how the Focus was "designed" to be profitable at these prices. Something concrete. Real facts.
Personally, the reason I'd say they are suspending the hatch would have to do with (as talked about before) getting it right then bringing it here. I think the hatch hasn't done well here because DEALERS don't make enough off of each car and they don't care to carry or promote them.
Civic to Echo is a better match, and more competitive comparison.
Lets quit this topic, it's a misfired missile.
And please explain why do you think Honda holds off the 01hatch to get it right while starting production of the sedans and coupes practically simultaneously around the world? I don't see anything special about the hatch in that respect. It is still the same 01 Civic with different sheet metal.
Concrete facts?
You will have to trust me until somebody can offer the REAL facts. I simply don't have time to dig now. If you will still interested I'll post the numbers as I come accros in the future.
All I can say that with the advance of the CAD systems every new design is being optimized in every way to be cheaper to assemble (less parts=less time), to have cheaper components (supplyer bidding wars)and be cheaper to service. Placing the final assembly in Mexico also would help (the Focus hatch place of birth).
Buh Bye.
yea, this is my point.
Some extraverts really hate when their neighbor's car attracts more of attention than their own.
I'm just saying that this car(or truck?) sells itself out basing on the looks alone.(My english really sucks). The dealer doesn't have to promote the truly outstanding product.
And how much will they want for the turbo Cruiser?
MSRP x 2 ???
As a side note, notice how many times a certain magazines car of the year reflects the car of the year as choosen by readers. That should tell you something.
Drive by a Ford dealer (around here anyway) and you'll see 5-10 Focuses lined up (usually 1 or 2 ZX3's). Drive by a Honda dealers (around here), and there are no new Civic hatches, only used. Honda dealers are the ones who tell the manufacturer how many of each vehicle they want up front. Try to order a hatch, you can't. If there isn't one they can truck, drive, tow, to you, you aren't getting a hatch. Dealers (around here)didn't want the hatch, they typically ordered 2-3 a YEAR, once they were gone, that's it.
1) doesn't sell
2) Honda doesn't build enough
3) dealers can't make enough of profit
4) public is not aware of it in its 5th model year
Aren't the Ford dealers the ones who tell the factory what product they want on the lot?
Is the factory really pushing Focuses out of its doors (like in order to get 1 Expedition you-the dealer-have to sell 5 Focuses)
I don't think so.
And the big percentage of public still think that the Focus is ugly.
Still the sells numbers speak for themselves.
Do you think that the story will repeat itself if Honda would decide to bring the new hatch to America?
As we see now on the example of ZX3 hatches sell.
Rob Fruth - Houston, Tx
http://freeweb.pdq.net/rfruth
1981 Raleigh for commuting, errands & fun
1997 Trek 2300 for real fun !
2000 Civic hatchback (DX, 1.6 L, stock, 35 MPG)
the focus is not bad but wait till the NEW Civic hatchback comes back in 2002or so. But the new Civics are supposed to be more powerfull and the top ex model is supposed to have about 140-150 hp.
Honda didn't go for the young crowd, as a matter of fact, I can't recall the last time they marketed the hatch to anyone. When was the last time they did a print, internet, or television ad for the Civic hatch. Maybe 1990?
Had Honda tried to capture part of this segment with the aggressive advertising plan Ford has had for the Focus, things may have been different for the Civic hatch.
for the Focus? Its very hard to get aftermarket
parts for the car especially "performance parts""
What happened? What do you mean what happened.
The car just arrived on the market 10 months ago? What do you expect?
HA HA HA HA HA. FOCUS ZX3 RULES AND IT HURTS CIVIC OWNERS TO SEE A BETTER CAR OUT THERE ,A CAR RVERY BODY IS BUYING EVEN EX-CIVIC OWNERS.
Oh... before I forget... MY car is better than YOURS!
doodoobidoodoo
I think I'm convinced!