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Comments
And it looks nothing like the Mustang.
WTF does a refrigerator have to do with a Civic? In one word, nothing. Well, okay, my A/C does work very well...and their are doors...and the interior light comes on when I open a door. That stuff doesn't apply to a Focus?
Let's face it, if I had enough money and time that reliability and durability weren't a factor I wouldn't be looking at either of these cars. Then again maybe you don't mind throwing out money.
Detroit is the Ford's World HQ but they have no say in the car's styling in Europe. I have lake front property for ya in Death Valley. I live in Detroit and have quite a few designers for friends, I assure you the Focus wasn't immune to American styling.
If you can't see similarities in the Focus, Mustang, and Cougar, maybe you're not looking at the newest model years. Not an 88 Cougar, a 2000 Cougar! Hello!
I 'd like to see a Focus engine handle 420hp. We 'll be picking up the pieces for days, hehe.
And please don't tell me you have an automatic Focus and think it's fun to drive. An automatic tranny is the most boring thing in the world unless you have a Corvette or a huge V8 with the brakes and suspension to control all that power.
My commute is 160 mi/day and I think I couldn't 've picked a better car for the job. You pick the car that suits you. I don't see much wrong in driving a Focus. You just take a little higher risk than a Honda owner. That's all. But please don't say "my car is better than yours". I need to see facts and until I see Consumer Reports praising the car in a couple of years I will stick with Hondas because they haven't let me down so far.
Togneter: You said your brother drives an Integra. Do you rather drive a Focus or an Integra? Be honest here. I don't know if your brother has the GSR or not, but I know that even the base 5-sp Integra can be a lot fun because my brother had one (until he bought a Type-R).
I wouldn't trade my GSR for 10 Foci..
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
I love my ZX3. I repeat: I've never owned an American car before, and I never thought I would. This car is different. I would like to have a few more horsies, but I'm just waiting for the Focus R to come out, and I'll not need to worry about that again.
My problem with the Civic is having to drive at 7000 friggin' RPM just to get any real fun out of it. I also don't like the way they handle. They understeer significantly...and drift.
I would NEVER drive an automatic. Where'd you get that from?
And while Ford clearly has input on car designs, the old Ford NEVER would have put out this car. They are heavily influenced by the European designers. But, yes, it does look like the Cougar a bit. That's because they were put together by the same teams...in Europe.
I wish that my criticisms wouldn't be misconstrued as attacks. Please read the quotes from the Automobile article sited near the beginning of this thread. They clearly don't think the Civic handles as well. That doesn't mean it's not a good car, with good suspension, and reliable and all that. My experience driving Civics is that they handle fine, but when cornering at high speed, they understeer, and it is very hard to correct. My experience with the Focus is that I just caress the gas, point it, and it compensates for any feeling of understeer.
You'll also be glad to know that the Focus' shifter has been very well received by reviewers. In my experience it's a little notchier than the Civic, but not as smooth.
Reports from Europe, where it's been around for two years, are that reliability is not an issue.
How about the Euro version of the Escort? We sure didn't see the same car.
For anyone to imply that a Ford stays the same when it comes across the pond is flat out uninformed.
I ate Chinese food last night, it came from China!
I agree 100% with personal preference.But you post here saying things like:
"If 200K mile durability combined with ""lock the hood"" reliability was at the top of your list, you might have made a better choice with the Honda"
Well, that sir makes no sense. Or do you, as I asked before, just have money to throw away?
It would be ashame to buy a proven car that alot of people like. That's logical?
"if I had enough money and time that reliability and durability weren't a factor I wouldn't be looking at either of these cars."
The dream? There would probably be a Honda involved (NSX or S2000) but there would definately, with out a doubt, be no Ford. Well, maybe just the one in my rear wiew mirror.
CYA
If you read reviews, however, you'll know thgat the Euro Focus is the EXACT SAME CAR with MINOR modifications to the suspension to adjust for roughness of roads in various places.
Please be informed before you make assertions. The whole idea of the focus was to build a world car.
Nobody's attacking your Civic. But, silver and I have driven both...have you?
Last time: I like the Civic. I've owned Hondas...they're good cars. When I drove the Focus and I took it on "twisties" the first time...I was sold. It's not ovelry powerful, but it is nicely balanced for fun driving, with much more accessible torque than Honda engines.
And a repeat of an above quote from June, 2000 Automobile Magazine:
"Where the Civic Si is engine, engine, and engine,
the Focus is all handling, steering, and braking."
and again:
"Outside of the Mazda Miata and cars three or four
times the price, no car gives better communicaion
between the driver and the road (that the Focus
ZX3)."
They're the experts.
I'm done.
Now I 'm sure (or hope) the Focus shouldn't be anything like older Escorts, but it's things like these that keep me away from Ford dealerships. I also have a phobia of VWs because of my friend's experiences with them. So I 'd rather play it safe and go with something "proven" as rex12 said.
Don't get me wrong either. I 'm not really against american cars. My parents had a '77 Caddy sedan-de-ville with a 425ci motor. I grew up learnign how to drive in that car and of course I beat the crap out of it too. Burned rubber and everything. I was in charge of the upkeeping and maintenance of that car. When we sold it in '91 with 140k mi., the only repair we had done on it, was the alternator which was replaced twice. Once around 80k mi. and then again at 130k because the 2nd was a rebuilt one. Everything else was regular maintenance like brakes, battery, muffler, etc. I found that car to be a descent reliable american automobile. While we owned the caddy for 14 yrs, my brother and I owned several american cars, probably 6 or 7 and the caddy outlived them all. So there are exceptions..
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
I have owned:
86 V6-Fiero, 74 Straight 6 Maverick, 90 Escort,95 Neon Sport, 86 CRX HF, 90 CRX Si,90 Bonneville SSEi, and now a Civic hatch.
I gave America a chance. I have owned 3 Japanese products over the last 7 years and have NEVER been in for anything other than routine maintenance.
My American cars were always in the shop longer than I was told they would be, the repairs cost more than I was quoted, and the dealer ALWAYS tried to screw me on my warranties.
I buy reliable cars with hoods I can bolt down because service people suck. I take a ton of $hit from my family (we work with the Ford) for not buying American. I live in Michigan! If I thought for one second the Focus wouldn't be a repeat of every other American car I've owned, I'd give it a shot.
I haven't read ALL the above posts, but I find it sad to see that the discussion is confined to Focus vs. Civic. It really shows how little choice US consumers have when considering a hatchback.
Not all of us go for quality (only). By this, I am not implying that Civics are faultless or that Foci aren't.
But there IS more to a car than just reliability in MY eyes at least. While I am not MAD about the Focus, I salute the newcomer in an otherwise desolate market.
In Europe too, the Civic has a good name and its share of the market. But it's OLD! Old design, no real personality, cheap interior.
I think it does the US market a lot of good that some buyers want 'something else'.
Again, it's really odd to see that it's only these two cars which are discussed. Come to think of it, if you were looking at the European market, the Civic would be 'way over there' to the left, with the Nissans and Mazdas, all good boring cars, and to the extreme right, you'd have the Focus, a ...UFO on wheels. And in between, you'd have about 35 other cars to choose from.
Imagine that!
So, Foci friends, you have my support, although I am not in love with your car...
www.fiatbravo.net/gal.htm
expect to see all the import imitators scrambling for the new market share ford
brilliantly tapped into. im not going to get into
this is better than that thing. i think the numbers will speak for themself.as has been
said many times before on other forums about focus,you either get it or you dont.the z is un-
like any ford you have ever driven. it is truly a well thought-out ,balanced packaged.
Sorry but there is a reason so many Civics are sold. They do have personality, they are reliable, and they do offer very good performance for the price. If the car does not have enough performance or personality for you their aftermarket prescence is HUGE.
Call the interior cheap. Of course, I've never had a broken switch or knob in my Honda's but the other cars I have owned inevitably did. Maybe you don't like the feel of the controls? I think the door panels in my latest car are a bit cheap but, other than that, I am very happy with the quality.
When is the last time an American automotive manufacturer mad a car under $13,000 that was worth anything after 5 years?
Sure the Focus may be different, I just wouldn't play that game for awhile.
The only Alfa's worth anything over here are on the local race track doing vintage racing.
Oooh, I wasn't supposed to come back here =[
Sure, just not lately in America. Seeing as I live in America and I made a valid statment. Lately (last 20-30 years) there hasn't been any Alfa worth buying. (Unless I want to pull one out of a junk yard.)
Here we go, WHAT NEW MARKET SHARE? I can't even make a smarta@@ comment like "Is your new market share people who like ugly cars?" Cause Saab covered that one in the 70s and 80s.
Take your own advice, don't come back.
I am not going to attack anyone in particular, I am above that. I like many Japanese cars (yes, the Miata is one) many other cars too.
I am just a bit tired of reading the same comparisons about 2 or 3 cars claiming 'this is better than that'!
Yes, I would much rather be driving an Alfa. And I know that some of you think I'm silly repeating that so often. But it illustrates - sadly - the lack of any 'real' choice in the US.
The very presence of people here discussing hatches is the proof there is a market.
Being new to the US I just cannot believe that Honda's and some other Japanese cars are permanently referred to as mechanical Nirvana or something. They are not! And again, excuse me, but they ARE GENERALLY boring cars with cheap interior finish.
Some of the critics who felt an urge to insult me, and I don't care. Save some money and go to Europe. Have a good time, and take a look at all the cars. I guarantee you: you WILL change your mind.
Now you may get all inflamed and all, but I am not going to respond to you. I have not insulted you, just given my advice. If you can't take it, it's not my problem.
My contention was that your question was asking "what 'new' market"? Therfore your question made no sense in relation to his statement. If you don't understand what I'm saying, I'll stop. Just don't argue against a point by misquoting it.
And if they DID sell Alfas here, I'd be driving one. I've driven them in Italy...what a dream...
But for American 'hatch' lovers, I truly hope that more and more hatches be imported to the country. Die-hard Civic supporters should understand that 'they' are not being 'threatened' by the arrival of the newcomers. WV, Focus, Civic ... far too few models to choose from. More models would mean more competition and lower prices... and Civic buyers would benefit from it as well. So everyone should be happy, right!?
Now good luck to you all on Civic vs. Focus.
*L*
Well, that's because this thread is set aside for this particular discussion. Try to mention another VS. in this thread and carlady (very nice lady I might add) Will politely ask you to start a new thread. This one is set aside for this particular discussion. Look around and there are many other hatches being talked about.
Maybe not as much, but they are there. So, maybe it's sad the other hatch owners don't feel as passionately about their topics or there would be many more posts in there threads.
have a great day!
Have a nice one too.
proof that the z owner is a highly intelligent
open-minded ,thoughtful individual. you
know what we mean,when the statement is
made -either you get it or you dont.
i almost forgot-alfaromeo- dont stop adding
fuel to the fire. europeans have always been
at the forefront of many innovative designs,
nice to see them making their way to the u.s.
it is obvious ford was targeting the so-called gen x buyer.however, the appeal of the z has
crossed all age groups and both genders.
i agree totally with your statement that if other choices were made available that all would benefit. that honda guy sounds bitter.
1/ yesterday, I finally took a ZX3 for a test drive. I told of my impressions in the dedicated ZX3 column.
2/ I tried looking at a Honda (this one was an EX) with 'virgin' eyes. I found its design elegant and sleek. Later in the day, I agreed with myself that the rest of the Honda line is very nice too. Honda owners: you see, I am not systematically 'pounding' your cars. I WOULD consider buying a Honda. I just wouldn't stand out from the crowd.
In many discussions, people seem to forget that we, as car buyers, are customers, NOT owners of the car company! Whether Honda is doing a good job selling cars would only be important to me as a customer if it ultimately benefitted ME! (lower prices for one).
Some explain their predominance on the market as proof that they are the 'best' and are content with that. Maybe, but they should also realize that the dominance of only two or three players in a particular segment is NEARLY ALWAYS negative for the customer (some monopolies or oligopolies do have certain advantages). I think all Honda, VW, Focus owners alike should all agree to that.
There is obviously a strong demand for hatches, and it would be in everyone's interest that the market be a lot more competitive.
I hope that the car manufacturers are reading this stuff...
I think the Civic Type-R (only comes in championship white as the '97-98 Integra Type-R)and the VTi hatchbacks look very nice.
It's all a matter of personal taste.. I just don't like the Focus ZX3. Reminds me of a minivan. Hey, not everyone is going to like the same cars right?
It's very sad that in the US we 're only limited to 3 econo-hatchbacks: The boxy Golf, the minivan-like ZX3 and the relatively plain Civic.
On the other hand we do have some exciting upper scale hatchbacks like the Integra, Celica and VW 1.8T/VR6, which is why I own one from each class :-)
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
But don't get me started on what you call 'exciting upper scale hatches'! Again, the market for those car is relatively lackluster there too. VW GTI 4-Motion 208bph 4 wheel drive, Peugeot 306 GTI, Opel Astra Coupe 2 litre turbo, Audi S3, Seat Neon (VW's spanish subsidiary) turbo 1.8t 180bph 6 speed 4 wheel drive, Lancia Delta,... (and this list is by no means exhaustive).
By the way, I just saw a car mag (can't remember the name - remember I'm an alien :-) ) but there was a comparative Si-Golf 1.8t, plus a special section on the ZX3 (actually, it was on the cover)
Okay wise guy, what "new market share" has Ford tapped? Or are you just interested in semantics? If you have NOTHING to add to the discussion why not do just that, add nothing.
Did you have anything to add, or were you just standing up for an argument that has no weight?
Really, get a life.
If Alfas were such good cars don't you think they'd make a bit more impact (any impact really) in the World's largest car market? Alfa had their day in the sun, but that day was a long, long, time ago. The last time I read an American review of an Alfa available in America, the car was ripped.
I can't argue my point with passion without being "inflamed"? Get a grip. I discuss differently than you do.
I NEVER SAID ANYONE WAS A MORON. I said his argument was moronic. Try re-re-reading the posts.
One more thing, how about some prices on the cars you are talking about? I have a suspicion you are talking about models that are WAY, WAY, WAY, out of the Focus - Civic price point.
I am talking about a small market here, small cars under $20,000. (Actually, any car under $20,000) I think the Protege is a damn good car in ES trim. Boring? Perhaps (Again, I'll make my argument for after market, a concept many of you seem to have no grasp of.)
Apples and oranges fellas. Are we talking about buying a $25,000 car or one WELL under $20,000?
As far as 'hatches' are concerned, the European market dwarfs the US, much to my chagrin and others reading these columns. I don't know why you get so excited.
What more can I say? You seem to drive an auto shift Civic. So, yes, we are looking at completely different cars!
And concerning Alfa, - like Fiat, Peugeot and Renault (BMW, Audi, the list is long). Granted, I am the first to admit that they have made loads of junk. But isn't that a history shared by a lot of manufacturers? You should get yourself a summer vacation to Europe, it would open up your eyes for a whole bunch of great cars, and maybe broaden your other horizons too.
Automatic? Well, I have no clue where you got that idea. Maybe it was you throwing a stone? Being funny? I've a manual tranny thank you very much.
I am going to Provence for 2 weeks next year, will that count?
Everyone makes or, has made junk. Alfa's last go in America produced some expensive junk. It's particularly difficult for a small foreign manufacturer to penetrate our market with over priced junk. Mainly because Ford, GM and Chrysler produce so much of it then, give their workers huge discounts on their overpriced jalopies.
I can only think of a handful of American cars I would pay over $40,000 for. There are not many people who pay that kind of money for an American car that don't get some kind of major discount.
Lighten up. Sticks and stones. A couple of good points mixed with some jabs. No swearing.
Thank you.