Real-World Trade-In Values

sbuhler · December 2011

Would appreciate current wholesale on this one also:

2010 Nissan Armada SE
2WD
Mileage: 20,000
Color: Grey Ext/Black Int
Excellent condition, All maintenance at Nissan dealer
Southeast Louisiana

Thanks!

lemmer · December 2011

Wife's water breaks on the passenger seat, no problem.
Thanks for that tidbit.

I think BMW's leatherette is superior to their leather.

qbrozen · December 2011

$20k

pblx3 · December 2011

Thanks for the quick reply! It does have a moonroof as well. Probably an obvious question, but can I check carfax to see if it is there? If it is - do you still think 24-27k is a reasonable range?

Thanks again!

qbrozen · December 2011

of course you can check it. just go to their site, plug in the VIN, and pay the fee.

Or you can just take it to trade and they'll pull it.

As for reasonable range... again, its really something that needs to be inspected in person to know for sure. If it IS on carfax, the odds of getting a lower number are stronger. If it is NOT on carfax, then the quality of the repair is where the deal hinges.

gsemike · December 2011

Long Island, NY
FWD
74k
Loaded w everything except DVD
Nice shape and shine but front and rear bumpers have marks
Clean inside
Tires and brakes both good, but not new
Clean carfax
Maintenance up to date

Thanks

qbrozen · December 2011

$10,500 ... might push up to $11k

Add $650 for AWD
Add $250 for Nav

stickguy · December 2011

trying to estimate impact on miles.

2005 gray over sand 325i. this one has a bit more miles on it (92K). premium/climate, AT, at a VW dealer. Looks super clean in picks.

so nice car, but miles have to hurt. Is 10K all the money? Looking for 9,500? they are asking 10,995.

the other one i am trying to get over to see is a 2003 like it with 88K on it listed at 9,995, but not planning to offer nearly that much!

cadillacmike · December 2011

The rotors weren't replaced, just the pads. They had to replace them per CPO requirements.

And they put 4 new tires on it as well.

It brakes smooth and straight.

It is a lease turn in.

cadillacmike · December 2011

Hi,

You want to check those numbers again?? How can the one year NEWER car that had over 25K higher MSRP with 1/3 the miles be LESS.

Did you mean 28K?? USAA pegged the value at 34K

Original MSRP of the 2008 CTS was $49,575.
Original MSRP of the 2009 STS was $75,610.
It cannot be worth less than the CTS.

cadillacmike · December 2011

we call it Pleather!

Premium package (separate trim line from 2010 onward) has real leather seats.

cadillacmike · December 2011

That's what i call those lights, Xenon sounds so Sci-Fi

It was a lease turn in and the dealer has to change out parts worn to less than 75% remaining or something like that. That's why new tires and pads on 11,000 miles.

rayainsw · December 2011

'The rotors weren't replaced, just the pads. They had to replace them per CPO requirements. '
Ah - interesting.
Thanks for that info.
- Ray
Orig. pads [ with plenty of life left ] on the 45K mile sedan I sold in November.....

tommister2 · December 2011

Wow, I had to look since you mentioned the original MSRP of $75k (I know nothing about Cadillacs). To my suprise, edmunds has each of them valued at right around $20k (I did NOT do specific appraisals, just looked at the base value of each car).

Is the STS just completely undesireable, or is the particlar one you are asking about just over optioned? If it is a low volume car, it's possible that qbrozen doesn't have much auction data to go on. Even at $34k from USAA that's massive depreciation. Was that number from USAA a replacement value for a total loss? I didn't know they were in the car pricing business except for insurance purposes.

Sounds like a good car to buy slightly used!

robbieg · December 2011

It wouldn't surprise me if the CTS is worth more than an STS. I would imagine that the discount on the STS was huge. No way in hell anyone would pay 75000 for one. What did you pay for it? Guesssing under 55000?

cadillacmike · December 2011

You have to factor in the V8 and options. These cars have EVERY option except block heater (no AWD in the STS).

Edmunds TMV for 2009 STS V8 RWD w/ all options except block heater:

Total $30,155 $33,581 $37,153
Buying a Certified Used VehicleDealer Retail
Certified Used Price $40,361

Edmunds TMV for 2008 CTS DI V6 AWD w/ all options except block heater:

Total $24,787 $27,315 $30,314
Buying a Certified Used VehicleDealer Retail
Certified Used Price $33,152

Of course you have to think; the cars can't have 17 and 18 inch wheels and can't have a center and rear differential (or can they, maybe AWD has both??) and they have only one audio system (the DVD based ones).

and we all know TMV values are overstated, but you don't get the entire picture without going into the detail screens.

And STS ARE worth more than CTS, just not 25K more and they never were, i think these were severely discounted when new, probably to the tune of 7,000-12,000 when brand new. Still talking over $60,000 for a new Platinum edition, which was about a well equipped as a BMW 7-series.

robbieg · December 2011

http://www.cargurus.com/Cars/inventorylisting/viewDetailsFilterViewInventoryList- ing.action?entitySelectingHelper.selectedEntity=d149&radius=50000&zip=15219&sour- ceContext=RecentSearches_false_0&startYear=2009&endYear=2009#listing=30582239

Quickly, found this one. Dealer has it for 28500 with 17000 miles. May not be exact but it is pretty close.

cadillacmike · December 2011

It Was / is a very low volume car (platinum ed, not just V8), possibly under 1,000 in each year it was offered (2008-2010). I need to write Cadillac to see how many they DID sell.

USAA price was their "value" both for ins and for loan calculations and it was over the phone, based on VIN, not on options listed. VIN tells them the engine, but not much else in the way of options.

One of these will NEVER go to auction. It'll get sold internally at the dealership or go to a customer on the dealer's preferred customer list.

And yes those "limited edition" options lose a lot of their value really quick, i mean most folks could care less about an all suede headlining (i don't even care) but it IS nice. I cared more about the chrome wheels, and all the extra leather in the interior, not just the seats. and the seats are "tuscany leather" whatever that is. Supposedly better than the regular leather seats on other STSs. I guess it's akin to the "rolcaro" leather seats on the CTS-V. Who knows and who cares, they're nice.

But this is not your run of the mill STS, not even run of the mill NorthStar V8 STS no sir.

And i did buy it. Just trying to check on what hit i took if any.

cadillacmike · December 2011

robbie,

That looks like the other two i was considering. I'll bet it was an Avis rental turn in. Those are the 17" polished wheels - very nice - the same ones i had on my wife's 2005 CTS, which IMO are better because the tire replacement cost is more reasonable, but the "bling factor" has moved these cars into 18" and even 19" wheels...

but i really really like chrome wheels!

Well optioned but without the ventilated (cooled) seats, and a few other items (like above mentioned 18" wheels), the adaptive cruise control, side blind zone alert, lane departure warning and heads up display. It does have nav and sunroof though. The option for the ventilated seats and 18" non-chrome wheels (and electronic frippery) was a "no fleet sales" option package.

And it was not a platinum edition either. That gets the chrome wheels, all leather interior and suede headlining, etc. It Required the above option pack and was also a no fleet orders option.

And he price was in the middle of the other two i was looking at.

Difference when new b/w this one (and the otehr two) and the platinum ed was approx $11,000 MSRP, if i remember the option prices correctly.

This car's option package was approx 6,000

Prem performance package was 11,000 a diff of 5,000

platinum ed was another 6,000 on top of that total diff 11,000

And that started falling like the temp on the dark side of the moon the day it was originally sold!!!

I'm popping the referenced car's VIN in here so i can have it for reference.

1G6DZ67A490169933

Need to see the dealer about a 2010 CTS for my wife, so will ask them to look this one up for me.

tommister2 · December 2011

Sounds like you got a lot of car for your money. Congrats!

cadillacmike · December 2011

If they are more than 20% or so worn they have to be replaced. Pads themselves are inexpensive, even the ceramic ones used in the CTS / STS. and most of the labor is already incurred in removing the wheels and inspecting them. It's just one bolt to remove and the clamp to push the piston back the change out the most recent GM disc brakes. Piece of cake compared to early nineties or drum rears (shudder!). My 1996 Fleetwood has drum rears, those take me HOURS to do.

cadillacmike · December 2011

robbie,

I got the build sheets,

It is a fleet option rental (most likely Avis) and its optioned just like the other two i looked at (on paper). Which is to say, it does have sunroof, navigation, 15 speaker Bose system, 17" polished wheels. These are the most desirable options IMO.

But it does not have the ventilated (cooled) seats, the heads up display (and the other electronic frippery) not the 18" wheels. It can't because those options are part of a no fleet sales orders package. And it's not the platinum ed either.

qbrozen · December 2011

They would have hit it at $7k-$7500 at trade.

The '03, assuming it has premium, is a grand less.

cadillacmike · December 2011

Yes i agree. New STS are a Terrible buy, but used ones, especially V8s are a great buy because of the MASSIVE depreciation. That's good and bad, it'll level out soon after the first 2-3 years, and i plan on keeping it for a long time.

Not so on my wife's CTS. We don't like the AWD, it's not really needed here in FL and the MPG hit is more than the EPA specs. We will be looking at a 2010 for her.

Just to let folks know, a base STS has the same engine as the optional CTS of the same year, and included more equipment, but no Nav or sunroof on either. Probably worth 3,000 - 4,000 more than a CTS, but priced 6,000-7,000 higher. The V8 was way overpriced, being 10,000 MORE than the V6 STS!!!

That's one reason why sales were so poor compared to the CTS. Then when the CTS got all the hand stitched interior panels, etc, in 2008, it spelled doom for the STS. Platinum ed STS does have all that hand / french stitching on the interior and with real leather panels, but that was priced in the stratosphere, and very few were sold.

So they are now gone, but i got a nice one with low miles.

qbrozen · December 2011

Just ran it again. I don't know what I did the first time, but my number was incorrect.

However, its still not what you think.

CTS - $21,300 to $22,700
STS - $22,300 to $23,900

And, to confirm, I just checked Manheim for you. Nice, low mile, loaded 2008 CTSs have been hitting $24k. FYI, you will usually see $1k-2k more at the auctions than "trade-in value."

Not much to go on with the STS. There was an AWD NAV version with just 13k miles that went through in Pennsy for $26,900 and one without AWD and the same miles went through Orlando for a grand less. So could a who does his research push higher on it? Yeah. Probably a Caddy dealer would know what's up and step up on it. Most aren't going to care, though.

cadillacmike · December 2011

I think your CTS numbers are sound. But the STS #s, there are too few V8 STS out there, and very few coming up for sale.

I think those are all 6 cylinder STS you are seeing. My gut tells me that from 3008 on, 90-95% of the STS sold were 6 cyl. The pundits all panned the NorthStar V8 STS from 2008 on because the V6 was 304HP in 2008 vs 320 in the NorthStar. Not a whole heck of a lot of difference for over $12,000 difference in MSRP!!

Torque was another matter, but who ever looks at the torque numbers?

If you can find the last 8 of the VIN (or the entire VIN) i can have my dealer friends look them up. That way we can tell.

And you're correct; this only matters to Cadillac dealers. Everyone else will have no idea.

qbrozen · December 2011

Nope. Sorry. V8s. They don't list VINs. And, yes, there are VERY few coming up for sale. But, again, so few people care that its just not driving up the price. How many people do you think are of the mindset "I just HAVE to have an STS!"? The STS buyers are probably many of the same who can buy an '09 Towncar Signature Limited for $22k-$23k.

Here is a list of all the AWD V8 Nav units that ran since April.

04/08/11 PA Regular $25,800 42,046 Above WHITE 8G Yes
04/27/11 KC Regular $24,900 37,050 Above BURG 8G A Yes
05/25/11 MILWAUKE Lease $19,800 66,597 Avg WHITE 8G A Yes
09/28/11 MILWAUKE Regular $23,000 33,208 Avg RED 8G A Yes
12/09/11 PA Regular $26,900 13,850 Above WHITE 8G A Yes
12/14/11 NASHVILL Lease $18,250 65,377 Avg WHITE 8G A Yes

8G is the engine ... 8 cyl. Here are the V6s, so you can compare.

06/17/11 PA Regular $29,500 8,659 Above MAROON/B 6G A Yes
08/11/11 CHICAGO Lease $26,750 16,521 Avg BLACK 6G A Yes
09/09/11 PA Regular $25,700 24,033 Avg BLACK 6G A Yes
09/21/11 CHICAGO Regular $29,000 3,203 Above Black NON N Yes
10/20/11 CHICAGO Regular $19,800 56,345 Below BLACK 6G A Yes
12/16/11 PA Regular $23,400 29,101 Avg BLUE 6G P Yes

And here are the V8 non-AWD.
12/29/09 DETROIT $31,900 7,330 Avg SILVER 8G A No
12/06/10 ORLANDO $25,800 13,547 Avg PLUM 8G A No

stickguy · December 2011

thanks. So my idea of 9K on the 2003, or 9.5 on the 2005 (leaning toward the newer one!) don't sound so far fetched.

hey, middle of winter, slow time, who wants a RWD hi mile 3 series sitting on the lot?

If as clean as it looks, grudgingly offer 9.5, and maybe get arm twisted up to 9.5K

qbrozen · December 2011

Personally, all else being equal, I'd be leaning toward the '03 for $8500. Miles are more important to me. But its a preference thing, of course.

stickguy · December 2011

only 4K difference, but 2 model years. So whatever "improvements" you get from that, and less time onthe road.

Actually, I was thinking offer 8, go 8.5 tops on the '03, and hey, cheaper is better!

anyway, at this age/miles/price point, maintenance needs and overall condition are the key to me.

I also won't be putting many miles on the thing, so higher miles tend to even out for me.

stickguy · December 2011

also, not sure if it matters, but the '03 is at a little mom/pop type place (little parking lot with a shack type place), and the '05 is at a VW dealer. No guarantee, but i still think you have a better shot at a good car at the "real" dealer, since they are only going to retail really clean units after an inspection, otherwise off it goes to some mom and pop place!

kyfdx · December 2011

Most of the "improvements" on the E46 were in by 2003.. Not much news after that...

cadillacmike · December 2011

I understand your logic, but town cars and recent STS are two vastly different car philosophies! And the town car is now history as well...

I'm trying to figure out the three blocks you showed me. I'm guessing 8G is 8 cyl Gas and 6G is 6 cyl gas, because neither of them are GM VIN engine codes (4.6L NorthStar is A, 4.4 SC NorthStar is D and 3.6L DI V6 is V)

8 Cyl AWD
04/08/11 PA Regular $25,800 42,046 Above WHITE 8G Yes
04/27/11 KC Regular $24,900 37,050 Above BURG 8G A Yes
05/25/11 MILWAUKE Lease $19,800 66,597 Avg WHITE 8G A Yes
09/28/11 MILWAUKE Regular $23,000 33,208 Avg RED 8G A Yes
12/09/11 PA Regular $26,900 13,850 Above WHITE 8G A Yes
12/14/11 NASHVILL Lease $18,250 65,377 Avg WHITE 8G A Yes

6 Cyl (AWD??)
06/17/11 PA Regular $29,500 8,659 Above MAROON/B 6G A Yes
08/11/11 CHICAGO Lease $26,750 16,521 Avg BLACK 6G A Yes
09/09/11 PA Regular $25,700 24,033 Avg BLACK 6G A Yes
09/21/11 CHICAGO Regular $29,000 3,203 Above Black NON N Yes
10/20/11 CHICAGO Regular $19,800 56,345 Below BLACK 6G A Yes
12/16/11 PA Regular $23,400 29,101 Avg BLUE 6G P Yes

non AWDs
12/29/09 DETROIT $31,900 7,330 Avg SILVER 8G A No
12/06/10 ORLANDO $25,800 13,547 Avg PLUM 8G A No

The date I'm guessing is the sale / auction date, next is city or state sold at, next is original sale type (could incl fleet purchase) or lease, next is (auction) sale price, next is mileage, then condition, then color, then engine, 6G or 8G (cylinders and fuel type) I can't figure out the last two, because they aren't consistent. In the first group some have A and yes and some only yes. in the second group there is A Yes, NON N Yes and P yes. the third group is A No. Yes or No might be AWD indicator (Yes or No) I don't know what to make of the letter in front of the Yes or No.

Only one has less miles, and its condition was avg. And i still think none of these are platinum eds or even the premium lux performance pkg with the 18" wheels, cooled seats & those crazy driving alerts (what I refer to as electronic frippery). And yes there is not a large buying segment waiting to get their hands on a recent V8 STS. I am probably an exception to this.

BTW, Maroon, Plum and Burgundy are all referring to the GM Dark Cherry color.

Did you mention earlier that trade is typically 1K - 2K less than auction??

steine13 · December 2011

I miss Terry, he was up on all these details, and he always had a good turn of phrase to make his point quickly.

"12/29/09 DETROIT $31,900 7,330 Avg SILVER 8G A No
12/06/10 ORLANDO $25,800 13,547 Avg PLUM 8G A No"

date of sale; auction; transaction price (fees not included);
miles; condition(*); color (from a list, not the manuf. name for it);
cylinders/fuel used; transmission; i forget the last one, maybe some sort
of green light/red light 24h guarantee?

(*) the condition isn't like normal people consider it. at 50k miles, the nicest BMW you've ever seen will be "average."
"Good" is reserved for low-milers that are also in really good condition.
once you get near 100k, it's "Fair" or whatever they call it, and that's that.

"Did you mention earlier that trade is typically 1K - 2K less than auction?? "

It's a little different.
You're trading a car the dealer wants -- his reference is what he can buy it at auction for, PLUS the fees and the transport, typically $3-500. He'll still try to get it for less, but he'll step up if he "needs it."

If the dealer will be taking it to the auction, he'll want his money out of it, plus a little profit, PLUS the fees. Big difference.

So it all depends what their plan is; has less to do with the car... dealers are always looking for nice, clean, low-milers that they know they can flip quickly and make a profit... typically your highest price will come at a dealer of the same brand.

Finally, I've been known to go to this kind of effort to determine a used-car price, but I typically do so *before* I buy, not after...

Cheers -Mathias

qbrozen · December 2011

Forget the codes. They don't go through that sort of trouble for dealer auctions. It is all very generic. The A is in the transmission column, so automatic. What the few oddballs are, I don't know. And I don't know what the last column means. "In" is the header on that column.

Many many options mean nothing to a car's value. Only major ones, like Nav, AWD, DVD. Even heated seats almost never count. Cruise, power windows, keyless entry, and all that other generic stuff amounts to $0. In many cases, those things are expected to be there and counted on in the values, and the value simply goes down when any are missing. You pay for all of these little things when you buy new, and that's it. From what I've seen, it seems to me those little extras contribute quite a bit to that initial depreciation you see in new cars.

qbrozen · December 2011

Bingo!

Thank you, sir.

cadillacmike · December 2011

Thanks for the insights Mathias. I remember all three of you, Terry (who's id was rroyce-something) and gbrozen, who never says his name!

And yes i did do some research before buying. I had the trade values pegged on the fleet cars but that platinum ed had no reference point that i could find and now i know why. I figured, it was worth the additional 3-4K because of the 18" chrome wheels over the 17" the all leather interior with all the french stitching like my wife's CTS and the cooled seats. I could care less about all the electronic frippery, although i will admit the lane departure warnings, while annoying, helps.

And the 40,000+ hit in 3 years is indeed a whopper of a value drop - but hey its good for me. Since i got what I've been wanting for years for less than my wife's 2005 CTS cost back in 2005.

What puzzles me is why after all these years is TMV still some 2-5K high. Haven't the powers that be made any analysis of this and corrected the calculations?????? :confuse:

I did account for the inflated TMV values going in. I call it the "TMV Offset" :P

qbrozen · December 2011

check my profile. :P

tsar2512 · December 2011

Hi,

I am considering buying a 2010 Volkswagen EOS with about 21K miles.
I'm trying to find out if it's a good idea to buy it in nj of all places/ if it's a decent car etc.

However, I am also interested in what I can expect for this car in about 3-4 years after now... I wanna know if I'll be able to sell it as a trade-in if I do decide to do so, and the prices I can expect. I was concerned because the dealer has dropped prices quite a bit in comparison to others on auto-trader, especially considering it's a CPO

Im a good driver and take good care of my cars. and should only drive about 7k an year at max(my work's very near where i live like 2 miles) :P

Thanks

corvette · December 2011

Which trim level and options? It's impossible to predict what it will be worth three or four years from now, but it may be useful to look at the Edmunds trade in value on a similar 2007 Eos with, say, 42,000 miles, to give you an idea of what the car might be worth in three years. Needless to say, this is highly unscientific.

ecwwb1971 · December 2011

Location: Chicagoland (Wheaton, IL)

2008 Honda Odyssey - Touring, 30K miles, black exterior w/charcoal interior, no PAX, condition is clean, no damage

2009 Acura TSX w/tech, <9K miles (commuter car to train station a mile away), dark gray exterior, dark gray/black interior, not much different than the day we drove it off the lot

(Acura is a 39 month lease ending in May 2012 with $19,600 residual value - trying to figure out if we should buy it out or turn it in.)

qbrozen · December 2011

22-23k on the oddy.

21-22k on the TSX.

28firefighter · January 2012

21k miles
Black over Tan leather interior with Alcantra headliner
20" wheels
Nav
Satellite Radio
Xenons

Pretty much a standard cayenne turbo. Owned by a friend of a friend, friend is looking to buy it from him. Philadelphia area.

Looking on AutoTrader, I see 3 similar turbos running anywhere from 52k to 65k. Mileage on all 3 under 30k miles. Have no idea what makes sense. What say you, Q?

steine13 · January 2012

This is for a friend of a friend, and it's in mid-Michigan, obviously:
http://lansing.craigslist.org/ctd/2769009034.html

Not much to go on, here's the text:
Clean,3.3 V6,power windows,locks,mirrors,seat,air,tilt,cruise,low 86k miles

What's it worth?
Thanks in advance,
-Mathias

qbrozen · January 2012

well, looks like the big option on these is the roof. Standard moonroof is $0. NO moonroof is a $1600 hit. and Panoramic moonroof is a $1500 add.

I'll give you standard moonroof numbers.

A dealer using Galves is going to hit it at 48-49k. However, it is likely to fetch around $53k at dealer auction. So Galves seems behind on this one. Still, though, friend A isn't going to get that if he trades or sells to a dealer. Sooo... I dunno... guess it depends on how good of friends they are.

qbrozen · January 2012

Yup, not much to go on. Assuming its not an Estate or Sport model, Galves is $1900 to start on it.

His asking price isn't too outrageous with those miles, as long as he's not in a rush.

steine13 · January 2012

Thanks, that helps already... these are OK vans, but the powertrain is fantastic, Nissan truck standard fare, very stout.

If it's nice, mid-to-high $3s seems like a fair deal.
If it isn't nice, forget it.

$4k is ALL the money; in this market, that's what it might take.
Thanks again -Mathias

28firefighter · January 2012

It has the standard moonroof, thanks!

Friend A, who I don't know all that well, wants 61k for it because it is Porsche CPO'ed through 2013. To me, 61k sounds like dealer prices. Heck, even high for dealer prices since Flemington Porsche has a similar unit for $59,9 certified.

Thanks, as usual, for your help!

qbrozen · January 2012

yeah, I'd be looking to pay 58k CPO from a dealer, personally. So friend A bought it CPO and is trying to get out from under it already? 3rd owner at just 21k miles? Yikes. BTW, that alone brings down the value. Can't really say by how much, its just not as desirable as a 1-owner car.

28firefighter · January 2012

Yeah, I told him to pass on it. Something just doesn't add up to me.

Real-World Trade-In Values

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