Did I get this right? Joe is trying to buy a Toyota?
That is 95% of the problem right there.... Not to over-generalize (but, I will anyway)... Toyota has the worst sales experience of any dealer, by far. I'm sure somewhere on the planet, there is a decent Toyota dealer, but so far, I'm -0 for infinity- in finding one.
In contrast to our esteemed car dealer members, I'll also posit that most dealers don't want informed consumers who know what a fair price is.. They want the guy off the street who only buys a car every 5 years that thinks MSRP is what he should pay...
The guys/gals that post on this board are not that way, for the most part... I'd love to buy a car from any one of them..
They think they are the majority, and the profession's reputation is ruined by a few bad apples... But, I've been buying cars for 30 years, and in my experience, the people here are the exception... the really good apples they place on top.. and the rest of the barrel is one big stinking, rotting mess... (no offense intended.. ).
That's a paraphrase of what a Volvo dealer told me in 99 when I was evaluating the C70.
OK. Fine. I'm Spock, I have green blood and pointy ears. Whatever.
So, o wise one, how do I Vulcan Death Grip a car out of the old sawbones? Preferably something fast and red... Or two...
Seriously, though, I'm not trying to buy from McCoy - He's a doctor, not a driver!
The guys I'm dealing with are Ferengi maybe, but I'm thinking closer to Jabba the Hutt. The only thing that brings tears to their eyes is green bills or red lines, no?
Seriously, though, doesn't what you just said translate to "Everyone gets ripped off, but at least we enjoy it"?
>Your offer was not accepted because it was too low.
Verily, the legends of your piercing insight are but pale shadows of it's splendiferous glory. I shall cherish this wisdom from this day forward, grasping it closely to me lest the unwashed approach and sully it's radiance.
> Did I get this right? Joe is trying to buy a Toyota?
Umm, "Joe" did at one point bid on the last of the 04 Tundras, but neither Joe nor Toyota were hard-up enough to quite bridge the gap. Joe's cousin, Spock, is much more interested in a solution to the general case of "buying cars" than "buying this car"... Kind of a "learning to fish" thing.
>Toyota has the worst sales experience of any dealer...
At least in my personal experience BMW non-internet new cars is worse, but I'd certainly hoist a pint to Toyota's giving them a strong run for their money. To be fair, Toyota didn't do me wrong, they just didn't do me right and the whole Southeastern Toyota Monopoly leaves a bad taste. Neither are as bad the local Mercury and Nissan lots - they both inspire showering...
>dealers don't want informed consumers who know what a fair price is.. [...] The guys/gals that post on this board are not that way[...]
I think you pretty much nailed it down with this one. Guess I just got sucked into the Edmunds Reality Distortion Effect.
So, returning to the original post the answer to: " Is everyone (including the pros) just waiting for a sucker?" appears to be "Yes", thus leading to the next question: "Do they get tired of waiting" which is probably "No" , 'cause what I think I'm hearing is that deals go off at the asking price less some token "negotiation" and it is more often than not a waste of everyone's time to try to move the ask in any material fashion.
Do you think it is fair to say that the car market sees buyers as price takers, rather than counterparties?
You are getting to sound like one of my co-workers. He wanted to buy a Honda Odyssey with all the bells and whistles. I told him that he would pay pretty close to MSRP as that is a hot vehicle. Still, he ran into each Honda dealership in NW Chicagoland trying to low-ball the dealers by $2k. After a few minutes, he was told to pound sand.
Toyota dealerships know what they want to get for their vehicles. They figure if you don't want to buy it at that price, someone else will.
You have two choices as I see it. Pay their price or find another vehicle from another manufacturer who will accept the amount of money that you want to spend on a vehicle.
There are millions of cars out there in Alamo country at any price level.
agreeing that per surveys from various pubs and personal experience that many Toyota dealers are awful and have turned me off from Toyota (all they need are persian rugs to complete the bazaar experience !!!);
I wonder how the Scion approach (supposedly "no haggle") has changed the Toyota shopping experience? If Toyota dealer salespeople are allowed to "switch hit" (ie., be both Toyota and Scion salespersons), what's their opinion about the "mode shift" involved?
There are more qualified people to answer this, but if I remember what they said previously, the answer is "0" - It's "used" as soon as a title is issued.
> You have two choices as I see it. Pay their price or find another vehicle
Right, the "If you can't afford Target, go to WalMart" argument, which makes sense for Target and Walmart, since they have comparable new goods with a moderate price differential. Even assuming this is accurate for cars, your alternative is circular - the alternate vehicle will also have an asking price, so you're basically saying "pay the ask'.
However, from a systemic point.......
Feh, forget about it. I'd rather just not buy cars.
On ANY product, you are paying the ASK price. In the case of a vehicle, you have the option to ask the seller to lower the price. And they have the option to tell you to pound sand.
The way I see it is you want to buy a toyota for less than the toyota dealer wants to sell it for...and the other toyota dealers won't sell for what you want to pay. Guess what? The truck is apparently more valuable to them than you.
I tried to buy a BMW 330i new fuly loaded, but I could not get them to come down to 25K, which is what I was willing to bay. Those BMW dealers are real jerks....
First of all, thanks for your responses, but the BMWUSA.com website just gives you the links to different dealerships out to 500 miles from where you are. Once you start hitting those websites, then you can see what new car inventory they have. Here's the way I look at it, though ... If I'm in the market for a new BMW, chances are I'm pretty busy. So, rather than being able to go to the local BMW dealership during the day - b/c I work - I have to check them out on the web at night ... when they're closed. Well, if I go to bmwusa.com, I can see the closest dealerships. If dealership A has its inventory online, and dealership B does not, which one am I more likely to spend more time on? Especially if I have particular options that are needed. Of course, this example is like "if a tree falls in the woods with nobody around ..." It's something I guess I feel strongly about b/c I am the youngest person at this dealership and can relate to the younger buyers who primarily will use the internet for research.
I'm driving an '04 Tundra and my wife's driving an '05 Sequoia. Adding the (3) 4Runners, compact truck, '03 Tacoma, Camry, (2) Nissan Pathfinders, Mazda B3000, I've shopped lots of cars over the most recent decade. I've found the Toyota best for my needs and have found a formula that work in the purchase mode - and presumably everybody's a winner: I've purchased the aforementioned Toyotas from 3 different dealers. They all know this. I've timed my purchase to coincide with mfg rebates. I've thrown in a couple of Nissan purchases just to keep 'em all honest. I located a demo (the '05 Sequoia) at one dealership and ended up buying that car from another dealership (same price +$100).
Look at Edmunds for a baseline. Time your purchase. Throw a little competition into the mix and you'll pretty quickly determine what the market will bear for the vehicle you're considering. And I have to assume this "formula" (as informal as it is) will work for most dealerships/models. Just my $.02. (I'm a good customer too - easy to work with and take all my service to the dealership I purchase from.)
100% closing ratio? Of course, that's just a pipe dream.
But if the OP took his car into that CarMax dealership without any intention whatsoever of selling them the car, then explain to me how that isn't wasting a salesperson's time?
I tried to buy a BMW 330i new fuly loaded, but I could not get them to come down to 25K, which is what I was willing to bay. Those BMW dealers are real jerks....
LOL.
Sadly, there are people out there like that. Usually they are people who are used to buying domestic cars with their ridiculous mark-ups, people who think every car, even those BASE 16,000 Toyota Corollas have $5000 markup.
One of my greatest thrills in my short sales experience with Toyota is sending those penny-pinching misers who wouldn't pony up for a superior product directly next door to the Saturn dealerships where they wouldn't even have to haggle price over that $18,000 hunk of shoddy engineering and cheap plastic.
Well, I can tell you I made my BMW dealer visits based on inventory search. I was looking for a 2006 3-series MT in any color but black or silver. No inventory on-line, no visit, because I have been burned before when a dealer says, yeah, I have a MT and I drive over 50 miles to find out there is no car.
Also, Friday night I bought a car 600 miles away based on looking at a stores on-line inventory. Did the same thing last year for DH (except double the distance :surprise: ). Also paid about 1k more than a similar AT equipped car in my area would cost, both times.
Them MT cars is gettin' like hens teeth to find, ya know. :mad:
I'm planing on buying a car that the dealer will have to get from another dealer. What's the typical process and documents involved? How much should i put down as a deposit?
" **Them MT cars is gettin' like hens teeth to find, ya know** ............ thats cuz' they don't sell well ... "
It's worse than that... them yahoos as buys them, they hang on to them. Just TRY and find a Subie Legacy MT... good luck. On the new side, they're close to 10%; read the auction reports, and it's more like 3%... I think that's true across the board.
I've never had a problem finding a new car with a stick like I wanted, but used, esp. 3-year-old used, is getting REALLY tough.
The guys with the used-car lot here in town that I talk to are looking for sticks... they have a decent web presence, and they say they have people calling all the time, looking for stick Hondas... hard to find... go figure.
That doesn't make them worth any more, it's just a niche market is all... -Mathias
"""**Them MT cars is gettin' like hens teeth to find, ya know** ............ thats cuz' they don't sell well ... """ The MT's may not be selling well in other parts of the country, but where I am they are doing pretty great. A little over 40% of the "3's" that I have sold have have had three pedals. I'm sure this is likely to decrease some, as about 10% of the E46's I sold were manual transmissions.
Is it the recommendation of the knowledgeable dealers that I buy a manual so that my kids can learn how to drive one or just get an automatic because sticks are dying out?
History indicates I will own this car for +100K / 8 years.
Finally, this weekend, I bought a new vehicle. It was not planned, not expected, but, the dealership we stopped at, on a whim, had exactly what we were looking for, at the right price, and our SALESWOMAN was wonderful. Turns out she is top salesperson at the dealership. So, all of you complaining about dealers, relax, you will come across the right dealer, deal and vehicle....just, look at the positive, not the negative. And be patient!!!!!!!!!!
Looking at pricing on 2005 Tahoe's....no haggle price is employee pricing minus the rebate? Or are rebates no longer valid with employee pricing program? :confuse: Thanks!
... **The MT's may not be selling well in other parts of the country, but where I am they are doing pretty great** ...
The selling part is easy .. it's the: "I can't talk on the cell phone, do my crossword puzzles and drink coffee at the same time" that gets them a little weak knee'd .. and lets not forget that: "the hills and the traffic are killing me" part ..... that why you see them trying to trade em' after 10/15 months ..l.o.l....
I think both statements are accurate... They spend an average of $1000 on their used cars (auction fee, transport, re-conditioning).. AND.... they make $1K-$2K per car on top of that...
The only mis-statement is "no one's really making any money on used cars these days".
So, maybe he was trying to BS you, but he actually told you the truth...
Of course, that doesn't mean that their asking price isn't $3000 over where they make money....
Hi, As in the title, what is considered a legitimate quote? And how do I know its legit. What tricks do I need to look out for? BTW, I am shopping by e-mail. Thanks ...Ken
" One of my greatest thrills in my short sales experience"
Your sales experience may be even shorter if you give your customers the impression you gave me, with your cheap shot at domestic cars in general, and Saturn in particular.
If you really believe your product is great, there is no need to share your (opinion) of domestic products.
> you gave me, with your cheap shot at domestic cars in general, and
Uuuh, Dude... Where's my car?
Funnies and patriotism aside, my Dad was a Ford guy and I owned nothing but FoMoCo metal until my current car. While I enjoyed rebuilding the '67 Mustang's engine, I wish it had blown in Atlanta instead of Denver. Dad's bosses' first Sable was nice until it drained the radiator through the tailpipe. The next one worked pretty well, until the freeze plug corroded through. Then, a year later it too blew a head gasket, whereupon I parked it by the roadside with a For Sale sign. A guy gave me $3k for it where it sat and I thought I'd won the lottery.
Picked up an old Aerostar for $1k from a Briton fleeing the state (metaphorically I hope), and drove it for 9 months while I looked for a good deal. Eventually, I went above my shopping range to pick up my girlfriend's boss' 01 Solara he had parked in Florida for a year. :surprise: WOW :surprise: what a difference. I'll grant you, the Germans have more soul, but the Japanese steel shows up and delivers every time.
For many, perhaps most of us, basscadet's observation isn't opinion, it's experience.
So, all of you complaining about dealers women, relax, you will come across the right dealer, deal and vehicle girl, job, and home.... Just, look at the positive, not the negative. And be patient!!!!!!!!!!Sorry, just couldn't help myself
You would think girls would be naturals in the car game, but I guess not... Most of the female salespeople I've known had very masculine thought patterns.
Anyone who knows what they're talking about care to speculate?
Sadly, there are people out there like that. Usually they are people who are used to buying domestic cars with their ridiculous mark-ups, people who think every car, even those BASE 16,000 Toyota Corollas have $5000 markup.
OK, fair enough... Problem here is that Corollas aren't 330s. While 330s aren't Z4s either, at least they are made by the same folks, and while 330s have no incentive Z4's have $2,5-4,5 in incentives right now giving a 16-20% spread between MSRP and OTD.
Obviously, even BMW has a not-insignificant margin to work with, should they choose to.
A few posts ago, someone told about how he had used quite a bit of the salesman's time, taken an overnight test-drive and so on, wanted his salesman to match the carmax price, and then went to carmax because the salesman wouldn't. The general consensus around here was that the guy shafted the saleman, because the salesman had put in so much time. I'm inclined to agree that the guy acted pretty slimy. But I do see an issue here.
But my question is this: At what price differential would you have agreed that the right thing to do was to go to another dealer? This guy was clearly over the line, but where is the line? The guy gave his salesman a chance to match, and the salesman declined. I don't recall the car or the price difference, but at some point, no matter how much the salesman has worked with you, it doesn't make sense to buy from him. What is that point?
$100? $500? $1000?
1% 5% 10%
This is actually the biggest reason that I hate going to test drive a car. Pretty soon the salesman feels you are obligated to buy from him. But all I really want to do is see if I want to buy the car. I have no idea who will cut me the best deal.
I disagree. Vehicles start out as a commodity market, but through use they rapidly become a completely custom item. Otherwise you would be able to trade used cars alongside pork bellies in Chicago. (Actually, cars cost enough that some contracts might well end up cheaper)
Regardless, if cars remained commodities, Pru's strategy (Thanks Pru!) would be quite effective for most used car purchases, and you could escalate to The Bobst Way if need be. Unfortunately, in my experience these these strategies are not usually effective for used cars. I believe they are ineffective for the same reason that Best Buy's "price match" guarantee is usually meaningless - No two stores sell the exact same model of boom box.
On ANY product, you are paying the ASK price. Again, I beg to differ. The retail car market may lack transparency and efficient price discovery*, but it is a market and the price at which the market clears is almost by definition inside the spread. However, this perception on your part goes a long way toward answering my initial question, and for that I do thank you. (sincerely)
I must say, I am a little disappointed at the dealer feedback, or lack thereof. While I can't fault Isell for not watching Star Trek/Wars and Terry's always slammed in RWTIV, I had hoped that at least one dealer might venture a response...
My thanks to all who responded, I do appreciate it.
-Greg
* In the matter of price discovery above, well functioning car exchanges exist (Manheim, et al), but they consider their trade data proprietary. This data is considered quite valuable, if RWTIV is any indication. Does anyone know if there is an explanation for this stance that does not involve maximizing oligopolistic rents? (a.k.a. "making as much profit as possible")
Epilogue: For the record, I am not trying to grind a new car deal below holdback, in fact I consider new purchases to be pretty much "solved". The puzzlement I have is the spread between bid and ask on the used side, in particular the assumption of "outstanding" condition for asks and "poor" for bids, and most particularly the ounterparty's reactions when these assumptions are challenged.
Comments
As usual, the great Bobst has an answer for you, Greg.
Your offer was not accepted because it was too low. You need to cough up some more cash if you want to buy the car of your dreams.
Any more tough questions?
Is that a new Tarantino movie or something?
That is 95% of the problem right there.... Not to over-generalize (but, I will anyway)... Toyota has the worst sales experience of any dealer, by far. I'm sure somewhere on the planet, there is a decent Toyota dealer, but so far, I'm -0 for infinity- in finding one.
In contrast to our esteemed car dealer members, I'll also posit that most dealers don't want informed consumers who know what a fair price is.. They want the guy off the street who only buys a car every 5 years that thinks MSRP is what he should pay...
The guys/gals that post on this board are not that way, for the most part... I'd love to buy a car from any one of them..
They think they are the majority, and the profession's reputation is ruined by a few bad apples... But, I've been buying cars for 30 years, and in my experience, the people here are the exception... the really good apples they place on top.. and the rest of the barrel is one big stinking, rotting mess... (no offense intended..
regards,
kyfdx
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That's a paraphrase of what a Volvo dealer told me in 99 when I was evaluating the C70.
OK. Fine. I'm Spock, I have green blood and pointy ears. Whatever.
So, o wise one, how do I Vulcan Death Grip a car out of the old sawbones? Preferably something fast and red...
Seriously, though, I'm not trying to buy from McCoy - He's a doctor, not a driver!
The guys I'm dealing with are Ferengi maybe, but I'm thinking closer to Jabba the Hutt. The only thing that brings tears to their eyes is green bills or red lines, no?
Seriously, though, doesn't what you just said translate to "Everyone gets ripped off, but at least we enjoy it"?
Verily, the legends of your piercing insight are but pale shadows of it's splendiferous glory. I shall cherish this wisdom from this day forward, grasping it closely to me lest the unwashed approach and sully it's radiance.
Umm, "Joe" did at one point bid on the last of the 04 Tundras, but neither Joe nor Toyota were hard-up enough to quite bridge the gap. Joe's cousin, Spock, is much more interested in a solution to the general case of "buying cars" than "buying this car"... Kind of a "learning to fish" thing.
>Toyota has the worst sales experience of any dealer...
At least in my personal experience BMW non-internet new cars is worse, but I'd certainly hoist a pint to Toyota's giving them a strong run for their money. To be fair, Toyota didn't do me wrong, they just didn't do me right and the whole Southeastern Toyota Monopoly leaves a bad taste. Neither are as bad the local Mercury and Nissan lots - they both inspire showering...
>dealers don't want informed consumers who know what a fair price is.. [...] The guys/gals that post on this board are not that way[...]
I think you pretty much nailed it down with this one. Guess I just got sucked into the Edmunds Reality Distortion Effect.
So, returning to the original post the answer to:
" Is everyone (including the pros) just waiting for a sucker?"
appears to be "Yes", thus leading to the next question:
"Do they get tired of waiting"
which is probably "No" , 'cause what I think I'm hearing is that deals go off at the asking price less some token "negotiation" and it is more often than not a waste of everyone's time to try to move the ask in any material fashion.
Do you think it is fair to say that the car market sees buyers as price takers, rather than counterparties?
Toyota dealerships know what they want to get for their vehicles. They figure if you don't want to buy it at that price, someone else will.
You have two choices as I see it. Pay their price or find another vehicle from another manufacturer who will accept the amount of money that you want to spend on a vehicle.
There are millions of cars out there in Alamo country at any price level.
I wonder how the Scion approach (supposedly "no haggle") has changed the Toyota shopping experience?
If Toyota dealer salespeople are allowed to "switch hit" (ie., be both Toyota and Scion salespersons), what's their opinion about the "mode shift" involved?
-Greg
Right, the "If you can't afford Target, go to WalMart" argument, which makes sense for Target and Walmart, since they have comparable new goods with a moderate price differential. Even assuming this is accurate for cars, your alternative is circular - the alternate vehicle will also have an asking price, so you're basically saying "pay the ask'.
However, from a systemic point.......
Feh, forget about it. I'd rather just not buy cars.
-Greg
Vehicles are a commodity product.
I didn't understand a word of what you said or what you were asking.
But, then, I never, ever, watched a single episode of Star Trek either.
I tried to buy a BMW 330i new fuly loaded, but I could not get them to come down to 25K, which is what I was willing to bay. Those BMW dealers are real jerks....
Once you start hitting those websites, then you can see what new car inventory they have.
Here's the way I look at it, though ...
If I'm in the market for a new BMW, chances are I'm pretty busy. So, rather than being able to go to the local BMW dealership during the day - b/c I work - I have to check them out on the web at night ... when they're closed.
Well, if I go to bmwusa.com, I can see the closest dealerships. If dealership A has its inventory online, and dealership B does not, which one am I more likely to spend more time on? Especially if I have particular options that are needed.
Of course, this example is like "if a tree falls in the woods with nobody around ..."
It's something I guess I feel strongly about b/c I am the youngest person at this dealership and can relate to the younger buyers who primarily will use the internet for research.
Guess I'm relieving myself in the wind, though.
BMW3434
Look at Edmunds for a baseline. Time your purchase. Throw a little competition into the mix and you'll pretty quickly determine what the market will bear for the vehicle you're considering. And I have to assume this "formula" (as informal as it is) will work for most dealerships/models. Just my $.02. (I'm a good customer too - easy to work with and take all my service to the dealership I purchase from.)
Ken
But if the OP took his car into that CarMax dealership without any intention whatsoever of selling them the car, then explain to me how that isn't wasting a salesperson's time?
LOL.
Sadly, there are people out there like that. Usually they are people who are used to buying domestic cars with their ridiculous mark-ups, people who think every car, even those BASE 16,000 Toyota Corollas have $5000 markup.
One of my greatest thrills in my short sales experience with Toyota is sending those penny-pinching misers who wouldn't pony up for a superior product directly next door to the Saturn dealerships where they wouldn't even have to haggle price over that $18,000 hunk of shoddy engineering and cheap plastic.
Also, Friday night I bought a car 600 miles away based on looking at a stores on-line inventory. Did the same thing last year for DH (except double the distance :surprise: ). Also paid about 1k more than a similar AT equipped car in my area would cost, both times.
Them MT cars is gettin' like hens teeth to find, ya know. :mad:
What's the typical process and documents involved?
How much should i put down as a deposit?
Thanks
**Them MT cars is gettin' like hens teeth to find, ya know** ............ thats cuz' they don't sell well ...
Terry.
It's worse than that... them yahoos as buys them, they hang on to them. Just TRY and find a Subie Legacy MT... good luck. On the new side, they're close to 10%; read the auction reports, and it's more like 3%... I think that's true across the board.
I've never had a problem finding a new car with a stick like I wanted, but used, esp. 3-year-old used, is getting REALLY tough.
The guys with the used-car lot here in town that I talk to are looking for sticks... they have a decent web presence, and they say they have people calling all the time, looking for stick Hondas... hard to find... go figure.
That doesn't make them worth any more, it's just a niche market is all...
-Mathias
The MT's may not be selling well in other parts of the country, but where I am they are doing pretty great.
A little over 40% of the "3's" that I have sold have have had three pedals. I'm sure this is likely to decrease some, as about 10% of the E46's I sold were manual transmissions.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Is it the recommendation of the knowledgeable dealers that I buy a manual so that my kids can learn how to drive one or just get an automatic because sticks are dying out?
History indicates I will own this car for +100K / 8 years.
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:confuse:
Thanks!
The selling part is easy .. it's the: "I can't talk on the cell phone, do my crossword puzzles and drink coffee at the same time" that gets them a little weak knee'd .. and lets not forget that: "the hills and the traffic are killing me" part ..... that why you see them trying to trade em' after 10/15 months ..l.o.l....
Terry
"we spend on average $1,000 on our used cars that we get in"
"Everyone thinks this, but no-one's really making any money on used cars these days, maybe 1-2k tops" (isn't this making money??)
The only mis-statement is "no one's really making any money on used cars these days".
So, maybe he was trying to BS you, but he actually told you the truth...
Of course, that doesn't mean that their asking price isn't $3000 over where they make money....
regards,
kyfdx
(not a car dealer)
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As in the title, what is considered a legitimate quote?
And how do I know its legit. What tricks do I need to look out for?
BTW, I am shopping by e-mail.
Thanks ...Ken
Your sales experience may be even shorter if you give your customers the impression
you gave me, with your cheap shot at domestic cars in general, and Saturn in particular.
If you really believe your product is great, there is no need to share your (opinion)
of domestic products.
Uuuh, Dude... Where's my car?
Funnies and patriotism aside, my Dad was a Ford guy and I owned nothing but FoMoCo metal until my current car. While I enjoyed rebuilding the '67 Mustang's engine, I wish it had blown in Atlanta instead of Denver. Dad's bosses' first Sable was nice until it drained the radiator through the tailpipe. The next one worked pretty well, until the freeze plug corroded through. Then, a year later it too blew a head gasket, whereupon I parked it by the roadside with a For Sale sign. A guy gave me $3k for it where it sat and I thought I'd won the lottery.
Picked up an old Aerostar for $1k from a Briton fleeing the state (metaphorically I hope), and drove it for 9 months while I looked for a good deal. Eventually, I went above my shopping range to pick up my girlfriend's boss' 01 Solara he had parked in Florida for a year. :surprise: WOW :surprise: what a difference. I'll grant you, the Germans have more soul, but the Japanese steel shows up and delivers every time.
For many, perhaps most of us, basscadet's observation isn't opinion, it's experience.
-Greg
dealerswomen, relax, you will come across the rightdealer, deal and vehiclegirl, job, and home.... Just, look at the positive, not the negative. And be patient!!!!!!!!!!You would think girls would be naturals in the car game, but I guess not... Most of the female salespeople I've known had very masculine thought patterns.
Anyone who knows what they're talking about care to speculate?
-Greg
Terry.
OK, fair enough... Problem here is that Corollas aren't 330s. While 330s aren't Z4s either, at least they are made by the same folks, and while 330s have no incentive Z4's have $2,5-4,5 in incentives right now giving a 16-20% spread between MSRP and OTD.
Obviously, even BMW has a not-insignificant margin to work with, should they choose to.
Not a dealer, and certainly not knowledgeable, but ditto that.
Conventional wisdom is that it'll be harder to resell, but I don't think it'll impact the value substantially, just be a longer resale cycle.
-Greg
after all the complaining on this whole site, I post a compliment, and someone still has to be a smart aleck about it....... :P
Mark
But my question is this: At what price differential would you have agreed that the right thing to do was to go to another dealer? This guy was clearly over the line, but where is the line? The guy gave his salesman a chance to match, and the salesman declined. I don't recall the car or the price difference, but at some point, no matter how much the salesman has worked with you, it doesn't make sense to buy from him. What is that point?
$100?
$500?
$1000?
1%
5%
10%
This is actually the biggest reason that I hate going to test drive a car. Pretty soon the salesman feels you are obligated to buy from him. But all I really want to do is see if I want to buy the car. I have no idea who will cut me the best deal.
I disagree. Vehicles start out as a commodity market, but through use they rapidly become a completely custom item. Otherwise you would be able to trade used cars alongside pork bellies in Chicago. (Actually, cars cost enough that some contracts might well end up cheaper)
Regardless, if cars remained commodities, Pru's strategy (Thanks Pru!) would be quite effective for most used car purchases, and you could escalate to The Bobst Way if need be. Unfortunately, in my experience these these strategies are not usually effective for used cars. I believe they are ineffective for the same reason that Best Buy's "price match" guarantee is usually meaningless - No two stores sell the exact same model of boom box.
On ANY product, you are paying the ASK price.
Again, I beg to differ. The retail car market may lack transparency and efficient price discovery*, but it is a market and the price at which the market clears is almost by definition inside the spread. However, this perception on your part goes a long way toward answering my initial question, and for that I do thank you. (sincerely)
I must say, I am a little disappointed at the dealer feedback, or lack thereof. While I can't fault Isell for not watching Star Trek/Wars and Terry's always slammed in RWTIV, I had hoped that at least one dealer might venture a response...
My thanks to all who responded, I do appreciate it.
-Greg
* In the matter of price discovery above, well functioning car exchanges exist (Manheim, et al), but they consider their trade data proprietary. This data is considered quite valuable, if RWTIV is any indication. Does anyone know if there is an explanation for this stance that does not involve maximizing oligopolistic rents? (a.k.a. "making as much profit as possible")
Epilogue: For the record, I am not trying to grind a new car deal below holdback, in fact I consider new purchases to be pretty much "solved". The puzzlement I have is the spread between bid and ask on the used side, in particular the assumption of "outstanding" condition for asks and "poor" for bids, and most particularly the ounterparty's reactions when these assumptions are challenged.
You asked a very clear question, but I think it is question you have to answer for yourself. You should do what you think is right.
If other people criticize your decision, then remember Benjamin Disraeli's advice: "Never complain, never explain."