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Good for you, Greg. If life had no puzzles, it wouldn't be so so much fun, would it?
I was about to speculate, but I'll mess this one up. I know it's been covered in great detail several times, your best friend here is the search button.
Ok, I can't resist speculating. My wild, random guess involves doing the entire deal, including all the paperwork, and putting down a 1-2k deposit. When the car show up at the lot you do an acceptance inspection, they hand you the keys and you hand them the balance of the buy.
Dealers don't have to trade, so make sure they can actually get the car before you spend a lot of time bargaining. (And, make very sure the other dealer doesn't know you're interested.)
Good luck,
-Greg
BTW, I can't see the hex mapping to anything interesting... Am I unusually dense today?
I concur. there are entire topics on inconsiderate buyers/sellers, but in the end if you go into it a willing buyer and act in good faith, if the guy across the desk can't do the deal, that's their choice, not yours.
-Greg
"Tis better to beg forgiveness than ask permission"
1.) manual transmissions do effect the value of a vehicle .. depending on the time of the year and the make and model, anywhere from $900 to $3,000 .....
2.) I'll be more than happy to respond, but you need to be more -clear- .. you post like a college professor in tight underwear and my translator is still in Germany ....
Terry ;^}
At what point would a dealer be legaly bound to advertise a car as used, as it applies to demonstration models?
Thanks for your insights.
Stewart
you gave me, with your cheap shot at domestic cars in general, and Saturn in particular.
If you really believe your product is great, there is no need to share your (opinion)
of domestic products.
Was the shot cheap because of all the rebates and employee pricing?
Seriously, though, I am not in sales, and if I were, I would be very careful not let such attitude show through, however valid it may be.
Terry.
Could you elaborate for the newb?
Thanks
I have been pretty busy. I bought a loaded, except no DVD system, Grand Caravan SXT. I had been looking at lots of vehicles, was going to buy a Tahoe, but, due to one of our cars getting totaled on July 5, had to change direction in mid stream, but, we are happy with the purchase.
I looked at Town and Countrys, but, I did not want a DVD system, (every single T&C around here had DVD) have no use for it, I wanted side airbags, so, we just happened to stop at a dealership, 130 miles from our house, where my daughter goes to University, and saw this van, had not been looking at Dodge GC AT ALL, (this was a Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep dealership) it had what we wanted, and did not have what we did not want, the price was perfect, so we bought it. I had financing already arranged through USAA, so, just one counter on the price, (and I countered lower than I thought they would accept) they accepted, we were the owners of a new van. Total time to make the deal, from test drive to hand shake, 40 minutes.
Totally unexpected.
Our saleswoman was a very petite, very feminine, girly girl, never pushed, never lied, dealt with me fairly, very pleasant, no hard pressure, just a real pleasure to deal with.
So, my lurking around here will probably end, I was getting discouraged, but things worked out, very unexpectedly. :shades:
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I concur.
This question is actually not about me, it's about the standard the car dealers around here would like their customers to adhere to. In particular, I'd like to hear from Isellhondas, who commonly complains that people drive an hour to the next dealer over $100. At what price differential would he consider it not stupid to drive an hour?
Implicit in these complaints is that the customer owes them something--and whatever that something is, the customer owes them more of it when they spend a lot of resources on the customer. Common decency says that they are at least somewhat right, but I'd like some idea of what they think that something is, and it's limits.
Basically a birth certificate for a car.
Possession of this denote a new car.
Information that is none of anyones business.
The problem with information is in the error of processing it.
Esp used car info. Bidding used cars is as much art as science.
There is a certain amount of experience necessary and even veterans sometimes make expensive mistakes.
Maximizing profit is why everyone gets up in the morning, like the stock market you want to buy low and sell high and no one wants to pay too much for a used car. By the time you buy the car, transport , recondition it and advertise it you can spend $1-2,000 easy. You still need enough room to deal w/ Mr Public who thinks he should be able to buy the car for low book.
There are no "outstanding" cars to us. Unless it's 1 yr old or less and very low mileage. Most cars are average, has a few dents, dings, scratches, average miles etc. Truly poor cars are rare and are treated as such.
The car owner doesn't see all the different cars that we look at, he sees only his and convinces himself/herself that their 4 yr old nothing special car is in fact outstanding, because that is the highest setting in the consumer guide they are reading.
If you take the time to walk around the car with them and explain what an outstanding car is, and why their car isn't, and you explain that the wonderful book or website they read is only a guide, and not meant to be taken literally most of the time you can come to a number that works for them.
As Terry says, there is Asking, Wanting and Taking and most of the time they aren't the same number.
it's just a car, its just a few bucks more/less a month, and it wont make or break 90% of the people out there to have paid $500 more to stay with the dealership that gave you all those benefits listed above - respect being the highest of all...
now if your first dealership/salesperson are horrible, disrespectful, shady, by all means, please walk! we've all said it here - don't reward the shady dealerships just because they are a couple hundred lower in price - you get what you pay for!!!
my 2 cents...
-thene
Z4's are probably the least-desirable BMW's out there, not surprising considered where they're made (good ol USA). The looks polarize the public, it's not the success the Z3 was.
Remember, you will pay less for that car now, but you'll get even less when you turn around and sell it. Don't expect 3-series resale value retention.
Note: Assuming both dealerships are conveniently located, had professional salespeople and management, and vehicles are exactly the same.
What about losing a deal you had worked for two weeks, letting the customer drive three times overnight, spending countless hours talking about different options and packages on a $47K BMW Z4 ... Only to lose the deal by $235 to a dealership they had never walked in until the picked up the car.
Did I do anything wrong ... No. At lease he said I didn't. But in his words, "$235 is $235"
He dropped by a couple of days after he bought it to tell me about it and broke out a copy of the bill of sale.
In my opinion, that was a little ridiculous. I had spent a lot of time with him and to be honest, I feel as though I worked for that extra $235. Now, did he give me a call and let me know he had gotten this price? ... No. Would I have worked with him on $235 ... Sure.
"At what price differential would you consider it not stupid to drive an hour?"
Price is only part of the game, it's your experience with the particular salesperson/dealer, too. (Which I know has been said many times in this forum, but it's true.) I think once you get into the $1000 price diff. range should it make a difference going elsewhere, assuming the customer's experience was good.
You have to average it out... Some guys come in and say, "I want one of those... Who do I make the check out to?"...
$1000? Wow.... you guys must be making a lot...
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What is the world coming to ? ? :P
I think a fully loaded 3 SE AT/leather/nav still only stickers at 22K.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I know that without Navi, but with a manual, I was still under $21K with every option.... A lot of car for the money...
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Amen to that. Busy beats bored any day.
-Greg
There is no one single answer or value.
You ask 5 different wholesalers you get 5 different answers.
Averaging them out will give you the range to work in, but its not the same as saying THIS is the value.
Even the auction numbers can be misleading. Which auction do you go with?
Case in point, Manheim's Riverside CA auction consistently pays more for cars than Phoenix does.
If we are retailing, we can't use Riverside's info because we won't get the money here in Phoenix. Someone not in the business wouldn't know that, and would assume that the auction number is good no matter where you are.
Also, every dealer is more thjan happy to service my present car so really what difference does it make where I buy it?
Sorry if I seem a bit miffed, but I take the time I spend with my customers seriously and value that time. If a customer doesn't equally value that time spent, I would just as rather not work with them either.
Ken
All very true, but if you'll recall the incentive prologue staged the observation that ...even BMW has a not-insignificant margin to work with, should they choose to., by which I was arguing that it's quite possible that even base Corollas have several thousand stashed away foir a rainy day.
All the manufacturers use price to match demand to their supply, and they can't make up losses on volume. I don't mind paying for the car, but I'm not very excited about paying for the mistakes. :shades:
-Greg
See, this is where I start to think the car world is in it's own little bubble - I mean, I can call a full service broker who will hold my hand while I spend $25-50k for less than $200. And they draw pretty charts and tell you you're going to make lots of money if you just listen to them.
You shouldn't have to hope you get respect from a client/vendor - Cars, stock, coffe, whatever. If you do, something is wrong.
Congratulations, enjoy your new ride.
That much? I've heard you say it a million times, but I guess the ever present pro-stick contingent around here had me convinced it wasn't that big a deal. Is this by any chance about what you'd save on the front end buying a stick?
you post like a college professor in tight underwear
Why.... thank you.
Seriously, I know what you mean, but the interesting questions are complex, and if you throw a little "crazy busy" in the mix, it's really hard to make it simple. Besides, you already do enough for 5 guys around here, you shouldn't have to hold my hand too.
-Greg
If we are retailing, we can't use Riverside's info because we won't get the money here in Phoenix. Someone not in the business wouldn't know that, and would assume that the auction number is good no matter where you are** ...
Very good point ... some auctions are better to sell vehicles in, some are better to buy vehicles at ...
"Most" of the California auctions are higher than the rest of the planet, the reason being is the "miles factor" ... an 04 35k XYZ will do more money in Riverside than in Dallas, Atlanta or Milwaukee .. on the Left Coast people drive more, so the average guy in Baltimore might do 20k, on the Left Coast they will drive 75 miles just to get a fresh Expresso ..l.o.l... . color has alot to do with it, try selling a black Vette in Houston, Miami or Charlotte, especially in the warm months, and they won't do any numbers ... drop them in Chicago or Philly and they're a big winner ...
Now, on the East Coast, the "Big" Manheim is a good place to sell vehicles at, not a particularly good place to buy vehicles, because they usually run $900/$1,500+ more than the rest .. but it does give a dealer a good idea of where "not" to be in his trade figures .....
Terry :shades:
See, now this show a serious lack of courtesy. He should have at least given you a chance to beat his best offer. Cretin.
once you get into the $1000 price diff.
I'm with Kydfx here - For a $1000 I'm gone, fast. On the other hand, not a week ago I told a salesman "I'd buy your car but I need to find someone who can do some custom leatherwork as soon as I take delivery, and I can't find anyone to do the work" The response was "Ok, well, when you're ready". If it had been "Ok, give me a day or two and I'll get you lined up", and they did, I could see $1k. Maybe.
-Greg
Thanks
I buy very few handshakers ... maybe a really nice clean low miler 325Ci, Miata, an S4 once in a great while, perhaps a G35 El Coupe', a few Vettes .. but as a whole, they can be more draining then fun (for a dealer) ... it's not that I don't like em', it's that the buying market shrinks by 90% .. of course everyone wants to drive em' and everyone "thinks" they want one -until- the Mrs gets involved, the business guy starts thinkin' how the last one was a pain in traffic, hills and city driving, so auto's sell fast ... that doesn't make them bad, it just makes them very inconvenient .. so usually what happens they will sit, get looked at, sit, get driven, sit, more demo's, sit ...
Same with color, one of the most popular colors on the road (to look at) is a "carnival red" Jag, especially on a XK8 .. folks will walk across the street to get a look, people will ask you about it in traffic, valets will fight to park it .. but on the overall, they will "buy" the BRG or the silver and the red one can sit for 2/3 months ... but $50 grand is a lot of money to get "just looked at" ..l.o.l... so dealers really don't have any advantage with the "wrong" color and tranny ....
Terry.
The Lutz Blog is hyping Solstice to the skys, while responders expect a feeding frenzy.
I remember the PT Cruiser being like this. Will it happen again?
Terry.
Maximizing profit is why everyone gets up in the morning, like the stock market
No question, but why then does the stock market make a point of disseminating it's trade data, while the car industry goes to great lengths to obscure it? I mean, the SEC requires fills be at or better than National Best Bid or Offer, which is like requiring that the dealer sell to you at the best price in the nation, every time.
In any business or industry there is a certain amount of proprietary data.
Information that is none of anyones business.
Mmm. Let's see. DeBeers, OPEC.... Volvo? At least OPEC's product actually faces some degree of natural scarcity. (Yes, Virginia, diamonds are rocks. Actually, they're carbon crystals. Yes, the same carbon as in "carbon based life forms".)
The problem with information is in the error of processing it.
Esp used car info. Bidding used cars is as much art as science.
Exactly, which is why I'm really confused at this point. I buy your point that The car owner doesn't see all the different cars that we look at and pros do and I expect pros to know the difference. I agree that There are no "outstanding" cars and Truly poor cars are rare, but
By the time you buy the car, transport , recondition it and advertise it you can spend $1-2,000 easy. You still need enough room to deal w/ Mr Public who thinks he should be able to buy the car for low book.
But this argues for more transparency, not less - All these items then become bullet points on the Mulroney sheet and you're golden. "I'm sorry, sir, but invoice on this fine piece of lightly used automotive engineering technology really is , see, I'll walk you through it."
If you take the time to walk around the car with them and explain what
I hear ya there, but geese is geese[1]. The vast majority of the cars I'm bidding on are not "retail"[2], but the dealers are expecting retail numbers out of them and get offended when I hit them in-and-around average condition. (Of course, the reason I'm bidding on them is because they aren't "retail").
Since we're citing Terry, I'm pretty sure private sellers don't have a monopoly on planters.
-Greg
[1] What's good for for the goose is good for the gander
[2] I'm sorry, but in the extreme case I'm thinking of this pickup had long, deep scratches and was literally missing half the dash where the cup holder/console/whatever had been ripped out.
They are, of course, lying. (Though they may be teeling the truth for their brand or dealer)
So, that gives us:
Base-Veh-HB - the "built in" profit on a unit so a dealer can sell it $1 over invoice and still keep the lights on
PIO HB - Port Installed Option Hold Back. This is kind of funny, in the way "Sanitation Engineer" is. PIO means "Aftermarket", but because a dealer is installing it... I was at a (Toyota) body shop the other day, and heard a guy say "Well, in the Southeast that's PIO, so they're $450 a pair. If it were stock you could get a single one for $120"
Deliv/Proc/Hand I'm going with "Delivery processing handling"
Whoops, outta time.
Bottom line: Watch the bottom line. Everything's negotiable, but they're better at it than you. Buy on an "Out-The-Door" price and don't sweat what they call it.
-Greg
if i have someone come in and give me attitude, i am not going to sit and take it. "have a nice day sir - maybe someone else can help you, but i will not be spoken to in such a manner" and 9 times out of 10, the manager will back you up...
just like a customer can walk if he doesnt like the way he's treated, so can a salesperson...
just my 2 cents...
-thene
holdback is not pure profit - and more times than not, while the car is sitting on the lot, that "profit" is being eaten away by finance charges - so really, its not a whole lot of money, if any, when we sell the car. and contrary to popular belief - we DO pay the invoice price to the manufacturer when the car comes in - holdback is usually paid out quarterly...
just for your info...
-thene
ok, probably got the wrong message from your post :-P - and i agree with you. depending on the person, you may know the minute someone walks in the door if they are going to be a jerk...
that said, i think its important that a customer at least offer the salesperson you originally spoke with the opportunity to make a sale if another dealer is offering you a lower price. if its not a significant amount, i would just buy from the first guy, if it is significant (and you'll know what significant is) then give the guy a shot to match - if he cant, then you have a choice to make and its up to you what you do. i get frustrated when i lose a deal over $100, if i lose a deal over $500 or more, well, they got a great deal, i move on...
my 2 cents
-thene
i had a guy working me for 3 weeks once with another dealer - whats your dealer fee, whats registration, meet this price, meet that price, all of which i did. he ended up buying over there for $50, and didn't tell me until AFTER the fact!
sheesh! but, he isnt the majority, a very good number of people who come in are decent people, but they don't like to ever let you know if they bought elsewhere, regardless of how many times you call to follow up.
for you consumers - if you buy elsewhere, just let the other guy know, so he doesnt waste his time calling and hassling you - just common courtesy! :-)
-thene
So I called the place(Ford Motor Credit) Who is supposedly backing the loan. They have no record of me, I call the dealership and all I get is "we'll get back to you." So I finally go down there, and they say "Sorry somehow you fell through the cracks, your contract was declined from toyota and ford motor credit." They got on the phone with ford motor credit and said they can give me the loan but it'll be at a higher APR so they want me to sign a new contract which is 18% apr. Considering I've had this new truck for a month already and I signed a contract with a 15.5% APR, does anyone know what I should in this situation? The contract says they're not allowed to change the APR, but it does say the dealer has the right to rescind the contract.
So options I was thinking about were,
A: Canceling the deal and asking for my money/car back. However I was told they can charge me docking fees etc.. for my trade in?
B: I tell them to take the difference in interest off the price of the truck?
C: Drive it through the dealership glass doors, and go to jail? ANY help would be most appreciated, cause i'm quite clueless about my rights in this situation. These laws are always funny with loopholes, and I live in CALIFORNIA if that makes a difference.