Any Questions for a Car Dealer?

yaman · May 2003

thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.We are looking for a car for my 2 oldest daughters to share as the present one just died an ignoble death.Went on the net last night requesting a quote-got a call this morning from the inet manager at the dealer.He quoted me a price of 300 over invoice.My daughters are going to test drive the thing tonight and assuming they like it I consider it a done deal.Took all of 5 minutes on my part and assuming the rest of the transaction contains no surprises was amazingly efficient.

Bought my last car and my wifes as well over the net-again got what I considered good prices on both with a bare minimum of fuss.Hopefully I won't need to be looking for a car again for quite a long while but my experience with inet sales has been terrific-3 times in a row.

vikd · May 2003

...with a couple of mortgage payments under my belt, I AM ready to buy that MAX I've been coveting for months now. However, and mass is right on this, when the "manager" of this dealership didnt know, or pretended not to know, what the VPP program was, I was pretty shocked and figured it wasn't a very good sign. I didn't even confront the guy over it, it was just kinda like "...uhhm, I gotta go. I just remembered I left the iron on...". This dealership even had the cojones to still have ADM stickers on their leftover '03 models!

The folks there all seemed pretty nice, but what a nightmare it would have been to try to deal with them!

Is there a reason why the MANAGER of a dealership would not know about their main employee/supplier purchase program?

Regards... Vikd

danfoj · May 2003

I hope this is the right venue for this question, so here goes. This past weekend I entered into a deal on a 2003 Mitsu EVO. The dealer and I came up with satisfactory terms and I drove off with the car. Yesturday the finance guy called me with the "great" news, my loan had been accepted, but at 7.75% instead of 6.75% which increased my payment above the limit I had set for myself by about $16.00, not a huge deal. I tried to get them to lower the price to offset this difference, but didn't get very far. Since I do love the car, I agreed to come in and sign the new contract at the higher rate. Now, I get to the dealer just as the finance guy finds out that the bank that approved the loan did not include tax, tags, etc..., leaving them about 3000.00 short. The finance guy appologized and said he would find a bank that would deal. I told him I would not pay $1.00 over the already increased payment, he said OK and told me he would be in contact within a day or two. Here is the catch, I have already put about 600 miles on the car, and by the time he gets back to me it will be more like 900. Can I expect the dealer to be eager to get this car back, or will he eat the difference since the car really isn't new anymore?

qbrozen · May 2003

I think he would definitely want you to keep that car. Don't know if he will "eat" the difference, but, unless you have pretty bad credit, that rate is pretty damned high. They should be able to figure out some way to work with your number. Hell, I think you were being really nice agreeing to that $16 more. My opinion is that once those papers are signed, its done.

Look at it this way, you got a REALLY long test drive in a free rental.

I'm surprised that a couple of these stories about changing terms after the fact have cropped up. Is this a normal occurence?? I don't know how I'd react if the dealer called me and said "oops. we made a mistake. we need more money from you." Well, ok, I know I'd laugh my [non-permissible content removed] off first, but then what?

robr2 · May 2003

...spot deliveries.

I know I know, it's a selling tool and it satisfies the instant gratification desire. But to drive a car home without knowing final payments, credit approval, et al is just nuts IMHO.

rivertown · May 2003

Yup, these stories about changing terms after the fact have cropped up a lot lately.

Rather than trying to figure out what the dealer can/will do, I'd be figuring out what I'm gonna do if the dealer doesn't honor the deal.

danfoj · May 2003

As far as I knew when I drove the car off the lot, I did know the payment terms. I did not realize the dealer was just banking on finding someone to assign the loan to at those terms. Anyway, I just called the dealer and told them I wanted the original deal or they can have the car back today, with 600 miles included. Thanks for your timely replies.

rivertown · May 2003

I'd be grateful to know how it plays out.

zueslewis · May 2003

I've done hundreds of spot deliveries and sometimes, one bites you in the butt, like this one.

Keep the car, don't worry about it - in fact, take a road trip. I have a bunch of time in F&I and if this dealer is stupid enough to pull this stuff and MISS HIS ADVANCE AMOUNT BY 3 GRAND, drive the car. That number is the deal - if they can't read, it's really not your problem.

There's an F&I man that'll be looking for a job, and I don't have any sympathy and I wouldn't hire him.

I'm usually pro-dealer since I spent a lot of time on the other side of the desk and I know people can have misunderstandings - but this is just stupidity, and they have no leg to stand on. Whether they can recontract you or not, the contracted you - they can't go back on the contract - they eat it.

I really want an EVO, too - this makes me drool.

bigorange30 · May 2003

Openmindedness breeds respect. This is some excellent advice danfoj. I hope you do have the original signed contract in your possession. I would add to what zues said in that I would not return this dealers phone calls for a couple of months. If he persists, go to another dealer for service. If you get a bill in the mail for a higher monthly payment, send the original payment amount with a copy of the contract. If this continues, you may have to get a lawyer when it comes time for you to get the title.

vikd · May 2003

...should I give the benefit of the doubt to the Nissan dealership manager who's "never heard" of the VPP purchase program? I'm now in the market for that Max, but I guess my patience was thinner than normal this weekend when I visited the dealership, as I didnt feel like educating/confronting this guy and ran from there as fast as I could.

Is this guy just playing dumb or is he jerking me around? Seems like he would have wanted a nice, easy (albeit not extremely profitable) deal on a weekend where more than one sales guy and the manager himself remarked how "dead" it was. I was the only person on the lot until right before I left...unbelievable!

Regards... Vikd

grandtotal · May 2003

Now I'm really confused. I don't understand why dealers do "spot" deliveries, they know there is going to be a problem occasionally, so why do it. Having said that I'm confused because the guy made a mistake by omitting the taxes from the loan amount and you are advocating not putting this error right. I understand the percentage thing, I'd let them eat that but not the error of not financing the taxes.

scanty · May 2003

I'm assuming you're talking about the invoice +2.5% deal. Nice no-haggle deal, but is that the best they can do on an '03 with the new '04s on the lot? Just wondering.

I'm also quite surprised that the sales manager claimed to not know about the VPP program. Can you print off the form and take it in with you? Any other dealers worth talking to in your area, or is that the only one with "your" car?

zueslewis · May 2003

they can still repo the car (in some states) given that the contract isn't actually "completed".

grandtotal - spot deliveries do one thing REALLY well - they take a buyer out of the market and de-horse them from their trade so they can't shop it around. They're out of the market. Plus, once the friends, relatives, neighbors and co-workers see the new ride, it's hard to back out - everyone may not say it, but they'll think you couldn't afford it or couldn't qualify, credit-wise. No one's ego wants to deal with that.

90% of spot deliveries end up fine. The bank does what the dealer and customer want and everyone is happy. 8% turn into a slugfest between the dealer and the bank, with the buyer caught in the middle. The other 2% leaves the dealer figuring out how to get their car back.

bigorange30 · May 2003

I thought he had some signed paperwork. If not, he doesn't have near as much leverage.

zueslewis · May 2003

in many states, a "contract" isn't fulfilled until "all sides are in agreement".

In that case, if there's money out there that has to make the deal whole, a signed contract is nothing.

Again, depends on the state.

thel · May 2003

just be patient with the dealer. If they are like some other manufacturer's preferred pricing programs, it is up to the dealer whether or not to do the deal. For example, Landru would do X-plan (or A-plan, S-plan, whatever) on a Focus but would not do the deal on a Mach-1 Mustang.

Perhaps your dealer is weak and rather than say they don't want to do the VPP deal, they just feign ignorance so that they don't have to do the VPP deal. I'm with scanty, if your are looking at an '03, I would think that they would love to do the VPP deal with the '04's out. If you are looking at an '04 they may not want to do the VPP deal if they can get more profit for a hot new model.

Just speculation, but I hope it helps.

landru2 · May 2003

I don't know if this applies to Nissan ot not but with Ford, the A/X/Z Plan deals are only available on the current model year. So if 2004's are out, they won't do these deals on 2003's. That said, there are usually enough incentives to make a leftover more attractive than than the A/X/Z Plan deal anyway.

masspector · May 2003

He prefaces alot of statements with "I still cannot understand" (or something like that)

I would like to apply that to danjof's post.

I still cannot understand why a buyer would shop for a car without preapproved financing. You can always take the dealer financing if it is better, but you are in a much stronger bargaining position if you know how much you can borrow and what the payment is upfront. This can also be a fall back if the dealer spots you with their financing.

zues--Does "I just found out the guy down the street paid $500 less for his, count as ""all sides are in agreement".?" Its funny how all the laws back up dealers on such things as spot deliveries, etc, but the buyer is usually stuck after it is "over the curb".

Three day right of recission. This is why there are not any door to door car salesmen. LOL

Zues and BO starting to get along? Maybe there is hope for the Mid East.

alfox · May 2003

I trust you read the contract you signed. Many contract forms have language that makes the deal contingent on bank approval, or some such thing. In some cases the dealer could have you, and have rights to the car if you refuse.

Read the whole thing.

dbgindy · May 2003

Re: the last line of your latest post. I was thinking the same thing .LOL

danfoj · May 2003

Just to clarify some points on this deal that still continues on. Yes I do have a signed contract, and yes there is language in there stating the deal is contingent on "assignment" of the loan. The way I see it, if the dealer can't live up to his end of the deal, there is no deal. I get my trade and down payment back, they get there "new" EVO back (currently with 800 miles and counting). My point is, the finance guy was sloppy and I should get the deal as stated, even if it means the dealer has to "eat" some of his profit. They are still trying to cut a deal but today will be the third buisness day since the deal was made. I'm worried that they are dragging this out to somehow force some loophole in AZ state law regarding returns.

audia8q · May 2003

sorry for not getting to your question earlier...concerning the advertsing of prices including rebates...

the reason is for several reasons. The selling price minus the rebate is advertised because that is the actual selling price of the car. the tax isnt advertised because its a variable that can change due to trade in's and different states...

zueslewis · May 2003

"Does "I just found out the guy down the street paid $500 less for his, count as ""all sides are in agreement"

No, that's not what it means. I don't want to over-simplify for your sake, especially, but I don't want my posts misconstrued and over-analyzed, having to argue with someone else about something stupid later.

If I'm selling you a car and we agree on price, when all the factors that make that deal happen, like cash down, rebate, promised financing, approved credit, full advance to cover the loan, etc, are in place and we agree that everything's in place, then the contract is valid FOR BOTH SIDES.

In the case where they spot delivered the guy, he signed a contract, the F&I didn't pay close enough attention to his advance amount, and let it go - the dealer's holding the bag because of their stupidity - no fault of the consumer, enjoy the car, get sideways on a wet road one time for me!

vikd · May 2003

...I just re-checked the Nissan supplier web site. VPP purchases are not being allowed at this time on the '04 Max (nor are they on the 350Z, but I expected that...sort of like thel's Focus/Mach 1 analogy) but they are still allowing the VPP plan on leftover '03's. Surprisingly enough, Nissan is allowing vpp purchases on the Murano already...

The dealership had 2 completely loaded (titanium ed., meridian ed., leather, bose yada, yada) SE's they were offering at $5500 off of msrp...they also still have adm stickers on their '03's!!! Current incentives to vpp buyers, according to the web site, indicated that there is $2000 customer cash on '03 Max's right now that can be used in the vpp deal. So VPP would be--Invoice minus $2000 plus 2.5% minus any ad, doc or prep fees. If the dealership sticks to their guns and tries to include the adm as part of the msrp, it still seems as though the vpp deal is the best way to go. Your thoughts...?

thel- patience is not one of my virtues. So instead of getting educational/confrontational with the dude, I simply walked...

scanty- yes, you can acquire a vpp claim number by calling an 800 number at Nissan which can be brought to the dealership to prove eligibility or to decrease the "never heard of it" responses. But here's the deal, and why I was shocked. At a certain other Nissan dealership (zues knows which one I'm referring to and gave me good advice to steer clear) that I visited approx a year ago, I had barely walked in and told the SM the company I work for, when he produced the invoice on the veh I was interested in, showed me the bottom line cost, deducted the holdback and told me it could be mine for that price (didnt even add the 2.5%). Unfortunately, I wasn't prepared to buy that day (doing research for future purchase...ya, I know, a YEAR?) so I could not take him up on it but it is clear that SM's should and do know about this plan.

There are three other dealerships I can visit in the POR metro area but their '03 supplies are very slim. The one I visited this weekend still had 5!

Sorry for the stream of consciousness rambling...

Regards... Vikd

butchbr73 · May 2003

seems like you may be able to get it at a better price without the vpp... I would figure the 03's are selling at nearly invoice minus any incentives?? have you tried that route? I would walk to the next dealership if they tried any adm on any Nissan... In fact, I think you would rarely buy any nissan at msrp, i don't think its a big secret you can typically get them at a discount , there are exceptions, 350's probably pull sticker.

danfoj · May 2003

Again thanks for the replies, wish I had known about this forum prior to walking into a dealership. The bottom line is the dealer finally gave me the original deal, only after trying to get me to pay more one last time. After I told them to get my trade ready to go they conceeded. And car dealers wonder why they get such a bad rap. I have my EVO, thats all I really care about. Thanks all...

chile96 · May 2003

Congrats dan on sticking to your guard.
In 1998 during the big GM strike I got suckered by a high pressure dealer in to paying sticker for a 1999 yukon w/ 6000 miles on it that the dealer had been driving. To make matters worse they talked ad nauseum to me about how, although my credit was good, it was all revolving so the best they could do was get me financed through a local credit union @ 10.25% for 60 months. I ended up paying the entire truck off in about 15 mos so did the F&I guy still make a "killing" off me since I paid my loan off early or does that not matter.

Please don't tell me how much I got taken for as I already know I got shafted. It would be some satisfaction knowing that they didn't make all they thought they were going to originally.

I'm not too upset with everthing, just file it under a lesson well learned!

ps - the truck is still a beauty w/ very little reliability issues!

Thanks
fo

rivertown · May 2003

Bravo!

kyfdx · May 2003

I'm pretty sure once the loan gets past six months, the dealer is home free on their commission.... I wouldn't worry about it. I look at all my screw-ups as learning experiences. Made a few mistakes when I was younger, and now I feel I get a better deal than 95% of the buyers out there. AND, how I feel about it, is all that counts..LOL.

regards,
kyfdx

masspector · May 2003

thanks for the replies

audi--what landru posted made great sense. Computer product rebates are just like what he described. You pay tax on the purchase price, then you send in the rebate. 6% on $50 is not really noticed. 6% on $30,000 is a chunk of change in my book. You said "The selling price minus the rebate is advertised because that is the actual selling price of the car" I am not quite following that because shouldn't the tax be calculated on the "actual" selling price? But it is calculated before the rebate is taken. Please do not waste your time going into too deep an explanation. I see now, from landru's post, what is meant.

zues--I'm with you, I was just trying to point out that most laws work in the dealers favor vs. the buyers favor.

zueslewis · May 2003

actually the laws are pretty even-keel, but few consumers ever pursue a dealer.

I work on quite a few dealer fraud cases - did one yesterday on an Excursion that was wrecked and sold, without disclosure, of course (who'd buy a wrecked vehicle at retail price?).

If there's free legal aid, in the form of some law firms around the nation, it's a great way to go, and sometimes, things can be worked out fairly quickly.

masspector · May 2003

What kind of lawyer would you look for in the yellow pages if you had a car issue like what you do? What specialty are they?

zueslewis · May 2003

I can give you a direct site that has links to all the states and attorneys that deal with lemon law and dealer fraud, but I would have to link my employer, and that would be soliciting.

I would gain nothing from passing out the info, if the hosts say it's OK. If you contact me privately I can let you know.

Additionally, most attorneys list their specialties in their ads, and you'd need to look for "lemon law" - most don't advertise "dealer fraud". Any lemon law attorney will usually handle dealer fraud cases - the fees are MUCH better.

suvshopper4 · May 2003

Does 3-day right of recission apply to car purchases in your state?

I can't imagine how many bring-backs that would lead to.

rivertown · May 2003

Here's an additional resource for locating attorneys specializing in lemon law and dealer fraud cases:
http://www.autosafety.org/

rerenov8r · May 2003

I am actively shopping online. Partly because local availability is poor. Partly because I just do not have time to waste at a dealership. Partly because it seems kinda neat (it'll be a good conversation start when I bump into other owners).

Anyhow, at some stores it seems that the "internet person" either has no ability to negotiate or they just don't "get it". I am using email BECAUSE I want answers quick, not "in a few days" {plus I always have gotten the impression that dealers LIKE to have deal close QUICK, so why are some acting like it could take DAYS to get back to me???} Is this the internet equivalent of leaving me to stew in the little salesbooth "while I go talk to my manager"? What's up with that? Don't they realize that while I'm waiting for them to "get back to me" OTHER dealers want me to send 'em a DEPOSIT to finalize??? It's not like when they "can't find the key to your trade-in" or the "used car appraiser needs more time with your car" ...

Now don't misunderstand me, I am not looking to "grind down" anybody, I am giving 'em PLENTY of room to work with -- I am being 100% HONEST that I have offers from other dealers that are about $2k off MSRP, but STILL more than $1500 OVER invoice( and yes, I do tell 'em the EXACT amount & let 'em know who they are from), I want to buy about $1800 worth of DIOs, I have a trade-in (or two or three...), I even acknowledge some of the other offers are from dealers so far away I would probably spend $600 getting the vehicle to me [BTW, any idea of what IS the best rate on getting a vehicle trucked -- $600 seems VERY high to me]... but the local dealers have just punted. WHY?? Are they insane? ISN'T $1500 a whole a heck of alot better than NO SALE??? They WON'T lose ANYTHING? (or would they???)

Am I nuts? Do the dealers just assume I'll happily send 'em my CC number for a deposit w/o negotiating? I thought even Saturn has sorta left "no haggle pricing" as a nice idea that just don't work...

Help me out!!!

landru2 · May 2003

If I was to get an email from somebody listing out all the quotes they'd gotten from other dealers, the first thing I'd think is, "I'm going to spend time finding a vehicle for this guy, giving him a price and he's just going to add my quote to the list he sends to the next guy. I've got better (and more profitable) things to do." So your request goes to the bottom of the pile.

The other thing is that negotiating is not just asking "Can you beat this price?" If you want to negotiate how about emailing a counter offer with the promise that you'll give a credit card deposit if it is accepted.

sonjaab · May 2003

Hey ! The kid passed his m/c test today. The weather here has been clear for 2 days.
We have been out eating bugs all day! His momma ain't too happy. But he will be ok since hes been riding motorcross since he was 10.
His honda 750-4 blows the doors off my Triumph 750!..............geo

masspector · May 2003

for the replies guys. I do not have a specific case, just curious in case I needed an attorney for stuff like this in the future.

suvshopper--No, my state does not have a 3 day rule. According to zues and others on TH No state has a 3 day rule. It only applies to door to door sales. Thats why I made my comment. I was trying to make a joke, that no dealer would want to deal with the within 3 day returns by having a salesman go door to door. LOL

rerenov8r · May 2003

landrua:I still don't see what a dealer is thinking when they don't come back with a counter-offer. I want them to make AT LEAST the $1500 or so OVER INVOICE that the other dealer is willing to accept, PLUS the PROFIT on the DIOs, PLUS the shot at making something off my trade.

I appreciate that there MAY be more profitable deals they could do, BUT THIS SEEMS LIKE A LOW-EFFORT, still VERY profitable opportunity. I am not a tire kicker -- I want this deal done ASAP. I am not some credit nightmare, I have CASH in the bank. Hell, I won't even tie-up the phone line for hours, just type me a three-line email!!! How hard is that?

I am NOT simply listing out quotes. In some cases I have just sent out a email asking for their best price. When they reply that they are getting MSRP or they are a "one price store" I have to believe this is some sort of strategy they think will work.
Everything I have seen on "coming to a deal" leads me to believe that without a counteroffer they are not interesting in dealing. I suppose that is fine. If those dealers treat their internet 'sales' as some sort of screening device, it'll be those that have no shot at making a sale with me.

I have NOT treated any dealer's quote as a something I have added to a "list". Frankly I don't see how there is ANY difference between me emailing a counter offer (which I suspect would be rejected as they stand ON MSRP...) and me telling 'em "if your counter offer is acceptable I will fax you my CC deposit immediately", but then I am just consumer who does this sort of thing maybe once every 4-6 years while you guys & the dealer's internet mgr are pros who do it all day.

Still open to suggestions. In fact any folks with 'em can email me@ renov8r(take this out & put in at sign)attbi.com

thel · May 2003

Did I read correctly that you may be trading 2 or 3 cars when you make your purchase? If so, how can you expect to get realistic quotes w/o bringing the trades to each store for appraisals?

rerenov8r · May 2003

I have mentioned the possibility of trades ONLY in follow-ups. Again, everything I have seen says "come to a fair price of the new car FIRST" then talk about trades.

BTW the one car has 84K, the other 124K, and the third 78k, all domestics, none very high demand. I am not holding out much hope that I will get much for 'em. I already know with CarMax will be willing to give me for 'em -- less a $159 appraisal fee PER vehicle. I assume the dealers do to...

I am just surprised that dealers would STAND ON MSRP while I am talking 2k off. Amazing...

thel · May 2003

What kind of car are you looking to buy?

Coming to a fair price first and then discussing the trade is a good idea. However, I can easily see you running into one dealer giving you a good discount on the new car and hosing you on your trades or vice versa.

I still think that this deal, as you are framing it in your emails to dealers, just sounds like waaay too much work (compicated when dealing with up to 4 cars in one deal) and way too much of a headache to do via email.

My advice would be to sell your 2-3 trades yourself and just negotiate the purchase price via email. I'll bet you get more enthusiastic responses this way.

rerenov8r · May 2003

I agree. I intend to sell the used cars myself. If they aren't gone in a few days/weeks (at prices that I determined from rroyce's info to others with simiar vehicles) off to CarMax they go...

I don't want it to be complicated for the dealer either. I have told 'em I fuly intend to come on in, whip out a CC and plunk down the ol' deposit AS SOON AS they come up with a deal that has the new vehicle priced AROUND $1500 OVER invoice (which is about $2000 undeer MSRP). Seems simple to me.

I'm telling 'em I that there are about $1800 dollars in DIOs I am interested -- my thinking is some of 'em want to see a "bottom line number" that is not UNUSUALLY low, so rather than go for some stripper I will take the vehicle 'gravied' for about what MSRP would be.

My gut feeling is that even thought I am used to internet speed, I am getting a variation of "stew in the salesbooth" from the dealers who like the old ways too much...

qbrozen · May 2003

Well, it does sound simple enough once you take the trades out of the picture.

Have you tried an email like this:

"I am ready to purchase a Mint Green X2000. I have cash in hand. I am looking for one with the cigar lighter, hoverboard carrier, lighted nipple twisters, in-floor safe, and fins. I want to pay $xxx for this fine automobile. If you can make this happen, please contact me."

and you really do need to give a phone number. Even if its a number where they will just get a machine, a phone number shows that you are serious and not just some yahoo with a hotmail account (or a yahoo with a yahoo account?).

alfox · May 2003

"According to zues and others on TH No state has a 3 day rule. It only applies to door to door sales."

As I understand it, while that's more or less true as stated, it actually only applies to sales that are made away from the seller's place of business. It originally had to do with whether you came specifically to the seller's store, vs the seller came to you. It certainly applies to door-to-door (that's what the laws were written to address), but as is often the case with laws the language is broader than that. Some states interpret the 3 day recision rights to apply to, for example, an auto dealer's tent sale held in a super market parking lot.

Most sales contracts specifically disclose whether or not such rights apply.

isellhondas · May 2003

You are making this very hard on yourself.

If you insist on using e-mail, at least make an OFFER. No smart store will give you a quote to go shop as you already have.

The telephone isn't a scary thing, use it.

I have no idea what you are shopping for, but the prevailing MARKET VALUE may be more than you consider "fair".

The majority of internet inquiries are worthless. The people who respond to them try to minimize their frustration by ferreting out the serios from the non-serious.

In most cases, the "Internet Manager" is just another salesman.

If you show up in person, checkbook in hand you will be taken much more seriously.

goldston · May 2003

Did I miss what kind of vehicle your trying to purchase?

asafonov · May 2003

When I was shopping for a 03 Accord (a popular but NOT a high-demand vehicle), I had good luck with Edmunds price quote "popups". Out of the 5 dealers I contacted, 3 responded within hours or a day or two. Some had price quotes, some did not. I offered invoice and after a quick exchange of emails with the most responsive and forthcoming dealer we agreed on invoice + $200. Now of course Accords are supposedly bought under invoice in other regions, but I don't really care.

My advice is to try Edmunds price quotes - I believe they pop up if you go to the new car research page and enter your zip code (unless you have security software that disables popups). This seems to work well, at least in a larger metropolitan area.

Again, reren, which car are you shopping for? A 3.5k spread between invoice and MSRP suggests that this is not a 20-25k family sedan. Perhaps these cars ARE going for closer to MSRP? Good luck in your shopping process, it is more less frustrating and I believe more efficient over the internet.

To me, a day taken off work to go from dealer to dealer and negotiate (not grind!) prices is literally priceless. No matter what I make an hour, I cannot justify a day taken from a vacation to shop for a car.

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