something about leasing. Alot of websites that gives you advice on leasing sugest taht i should not worry about monthly payment but rather price of the car. Now i am wondering why it's not right to use monthly payment to determine my deal if i would not buy the car when the lease is up and also i make sure that the monthly payment i am quoted is for 36 month and nothing longer. If i tell them i am happy with $300 per month with no down and 36 month and 12K miles, does it matter if the car was MSRP or 1K less MSRP?
I hear that the dealers can change the rate and residual and term to fit my monthly payment, but if you already take the term out and say i want 36 month, and $$$$ monthly payment, would i be putting myself in a position where i will be ripped off?
no, dealers cannot change rate or residual. if you say "$400/mo. for 36 months at 12k miles/yr.", then they only have 1 variable to use, and thats price.
the price only matters if you are planning to buy afterwards. if not, then your expenses are the same whether its a $400 payment at MSRP or a $400 payment at invoice.
Ok, I have a question.... I'm getting ready to trade in a 2002 Chevrolet s-10 Extreme pickup, with a little over 16k miles. I haven't been able to determine what a good trade in value for this truck would be. Any ideas? Also, my son has installed a "system" in it with a speaker box behind the front seats. Should I remove the system, or would I be better off leaving it in there, since anyone wanting to buy this thing would probably want one in it? Thanks in advance for your answer!
trade-in values wont increase for bigger speakers.
also, for a good idea of trade-in, go to the "real world trade-in values" discussion. give terry all the specifics, and you should get something within a few hundred bucks.
Bowke, the dealer can affect a second variable: money factor. If they jack up the money factor, they can cut the sales price and keep the payment the same, and vice versa. For example, consider a car with MSRP $27k, and a 36 month lease with a 60% residual. The payment with a 0.002 MF and a $25k sales price ($372/month) is identical to that of a car with a $27k selling price and a 0.0006 MF.
The buyer's better off with a higher MF and lower selling price, though, since if the lease is held to term, it makes zero difference, but if the buyer decides to buy out the lease before the term expires, then he'll pay less (buyout price is lower with a lower initial price, but declines more slowly, so that the two buyout prices merge after 36 months).
I looked at a nice 98 Civic the other day (around the same time I was looking at the Cavalier) opened the door to take a peek inside. I saw speaker wires running by the door up to the hood (amp?) and some big aftermarket stereo inside. I quietly closed the door and walked over to look at the Focus next to it. Nothing I hate more than aftermarket stereo equipment that goes overboard. Stick a CD player in that's fine, but what's up with all the wires?
My 94 Escort had a big stereo system in it before I got it, the guy had yanked it out, took us an hour to pull all the wires out of that car. When we were done we had 3 lbs of speaker wires laying on the garage floor.
You have a point. If you are willing to pay $XXX amount per month to lease a specific car, then you can't be "ripped off", assuming length of contract and upfront charges all meet your requirements.
But, if you don't know how they arrive at the numbers, you could be paying more than you have to. Why pay $XXX/month for a Honda Odyssey, if you can actually get the lease for ($XXX minus $30/month)?
Some cars are lousy deals to lease... Most domestics, Mazdas and a few others come to mind. Mostly, because they have low residual values. Others are great deals.. I mentioned the Odyssey because it is especially cheap to lease right now. That is actually a $30K car that you can lease for $300/month.
Knowing the cap cost, residual, and money factor will make you a smarter consumer and save you money. If you are willing to spend $300/month, but find out you can get it for $270.. that is a good thing.
The wife informs me that the refrigerator (in our kitchen - not the car) is dying so well be off to the appliance store this weekend.
Just like cars there are promotions and rebates and discounted interest programs - and on it goes. However they don't even give out free coffee and donuts in the repair section at the appliance store - Imagine that !
Does anyone have any idea of what kind of negotiated discount I could reasonably expect from an appliance like a new refrigerator.
Having bought 2 new houses since 1996 (you'd think I'd learn from doing it once; real estate and home builders make car dealers as a group Scout's honor squeaky clean in comparison), the best prices by far are from Home Depot and Lowes. The only catch is sometimes their delivery drop point can be the driveway, though on the last deal they messed up by selling the stove I had already bought and paid for, so two associates showed up with a replacement on a Load'n'Go truck and humped it through the garage and into the house. YMMV. There's also Sears.....
It really varies, depending on the car.. If you go to the Lease Questions forum, Car-man can give you residuals and money factors for whatever vehicle you are interested in. He can also let you know if there are any confidential dealer incentives available. (For instance, $2400 factory to dealer cash on BMW 330i right now. That would be important to know, if negotiating.)
Some cars.. such as the Honda Accord are going for close to invoice right now.. While an Acura TSX might be bringing $1000-$1500 over. If you narrow your search, you can check the prices paid forums to at least get a ballpark figure. That is a good place to start.
This is good advice on appliances. Check Home Depot and Lowe's to determine market prices. If you don't want to buy from there, most appliance stores (including Sears) will match their prices, or come close to it.
Thanks, guys. I do use the same service writer, who's just being stubborn or is under orders. I can let it go if I have to. Don't sweat the small stuff, right?
One thing to remember is that the bulk of the service writer's pay package is based on how much he sells. Almost every person in an auto dealership that is involved in selling something (including parts and labor) are largely compensated through either straight commission or a bonus based on sales. When I was selling parts, over 60% of my pay was a month end commision based on gross profit of what I sold. My regular hourly wage was beaten by workers at a fast food joint.
Help this girl out since I am not capable according to you guys. Anyways here it is...
She wants a 2004 Honda Civic LX Sedan (Automatic)
Edmunds Invoice: $15,261
Edmunds TMV: $15,218
I see dealer cash of $400
I currently have a out the door price of: $14,980
Carsdirect states...
Invoice: $15,261
Target Price: $ 15,461
I see on what prices people paid that on average they are paying $14,700 - $14,450 for automatics.
What am I missing here? With only $400 in dealer cash why would a dealer go into holdback so much? Is there more dealer cash available that I am missing?
I know on Fords there can be "spiff" hidden trunk money per deal. Honda could be structured similarly.
The cheap prices also may have to do with # of units necessary to move for monthly allocations. A Civic is a cheap unit to dump, since there isn't much mark-up to begin with.
No hang up just want to make sure I not holding a grand or two from this girl like you guys said I did previously. Well here in my area I can't seem to get them down pass 14,800 for a automatic. The $14,980 figure includes free tires for life plus free loaner car for up to 3 yrs. The replacement tires will be identical to the ones at the time of purchase.
Hi everyone. In an effort to keep this discussion on-topic and to keep things as civil as possible, I have deleted several posts that have been made today. Please remember to follow the following "Rules of the Road" when posting in this forum:
"1. Stay on topic Town Hall insists that users stay on topic. Use the Search function to find a discussion relevant to your topic.
2. Courtesy is mandatory Town Hall insists that users be courteous. We understand that our users are passionate about vehicles, and furthermore that sometimes you are right and someone else is wrong, and worse -- they won't admit it. But remember, ultimately Town Hall is about autos not egos."
Thanks and please continue the interesting discussion.
Your worrying me man! lol I surfed on over to Edmunds prices paid for Honda Civics board. Thats how I know because people are posting what they paid for their Honda Civic LX Sedan (Automatic).
Well I fought this battle and no one will budge under 14,800 here. So only one dealer is offering the free tires for life promotion. We have that dealer at $14,900 out the door. So we have decided to close with this dealer. If anyone thinks I have a bad price please speak up now.
From what I see the dealer is not into holdback at all. More like into $361 of their $400 dealer cash. So do you think $14,900 is a good deal for this Civic with the free tire replacement promotion included? Or do you think I could stand to do way better like you guys said I could of done on the other car deal?
Invoice is $15,261. Subtract $400 - $14,861. They're selling it for $14,800 - they dipped into holdback by $61.
I don't like the free tire deals, but hey, go for it. Usually, to qualify for the "free tires for life", you have to follow the dealer's maintenance schedule, which adds mucho fluff over the manufacturer's schedule, and you pay retail for every 7,500, 15,000, 30k, and 60k service - hundreds, and possibly thousands of dollars over what the manufacturer recommends during ownership.
All that for a couple of sets of cheesy (they aren't using Michelins, I promise) tires? Nope, not me.
and when they "give" you those tires, how much does it cost to have them put on? They have to balance and mount the tire, etc.... what are they going to charge you for that? I'm with Drift here, doesn't add much, if any, value for me to the deal... heck, she may not even have the car in 40,000 or so miles when she'll need them.
And Bowke, keep that property a secret....:) I'm very interested, give me a call 987-555-1234
To answer the question.. (and I'm not a car dealer).. that is a fair price for the Civic. You got invoice minus the incentive.. Unless there is some double secret probation cash, there isn't going to be much more room.
That doesn't mean someone somewhere won't get it for a couple hundred less, but the price is good.
Are like free lunches. I'm not sure what the gimmick is here but I'm sure there is a price to be paid.
I've learned to stay out of the Prices Paid forums. A lot of these "prices" are simply not for real. People forget what they paid, and some, I think, just make up stories.
And....almost everyone has a trade.. only they forget to mention that.. You can pickup some good info in those forums, but if your intention is to match the best deal quoted there, you might never get a car.
Not too many invoice deals in the Great Northwest are there? That is one thing I've learned from the prices paid boards... All the Oregon and Washington buyers are looking out-of-state.
come and get them. By the time you pay for every maintenance at the dealer's required intervals and services list you will pay about $342 for each tire based on how much more you are paying for maint. than necessary. I'd buy the car where it's least expensive and ignore the tire promo. If that's where it's least then buy it there and forget the tires. Do your service based on a sensible schedule and where it's economically sensible.
come on....Do you want to be the guy who get's on edmunds and brags that you paid full list, got shorted on the trade by $1000 and paid 7% when you could have paid 5% by doing a little homework? I rarely see that post on edmunds....but I do see alot of posts from people claiming they paid thousands below cost. It seems there is a secret dealer group that internet braggers find who are just dying to lose a couple thousand to everyone who walks in the door.
I went to a local Nissan dealer and wanted to test drive a couple of models. A salesman walked right out and offered to help. Problem is, it was his second week on the job and he obviously did not spend his idle time learning about the products.
He knew less about the Murano and the Maxima than I did. And I did all my research on-line. I just wanted to see them up close and test drive.
Anyway, he started telling me about his personal life and how selling cars is a side line because he has a business that takes up most of his *real* time and he sells cars for fun. (Sure-insert eye roll) I listened while nodding and *Umming.*
I told him I was not quite ready to sign and would call and/or come back in the next few months if I cannot get out of my lease. (long story)
Bottom line, I would like to get another salesman, when I go back to the dealer. How bad is it to try to ditch him for someone else? And how do I do this? I did not feel he was into selling, knew what he was doing and he really did not seem interested in the autos...he was more interested in telling me about his personal life and trying to glean personal facts about mine.
tell him that you need to talk with someone that has a bit more product knowledge, and would like another, more experienced salesperson. be upfront. this will accomplish 3 things:
1) he will be ok with it, because he will still get 1/2 the deal. 2) you will get a better salesman. 3) it will motivate him to learn his product knowledge better.
in 5 years, noone has ever had the guts to tell me they werent comfortable. if they had, i would probably have at least an extra deal every month.
also, the manager will appreciate it at negotiation time. you just helped them make a deal more likely.
Thank you for the reply! I appreciate it. The rest of you guys really have to disagree with just about anything I say right or wrong. lol Oh well that's what makes this board so fun.
Anyways, Drift I said my lowest qoute was 14800. 14900 is what she settled on because of the free tires for life offer. The dealer put down on paper that they will install the same exact tires that came from the factory when she bought the car. Plus the dealership was closer to her house so she felt it was worth the extra $100 I guess.
You want to know what's really strange. When you guys tore into me about the last deal we spoke about alot of you mentioned that I should of looked at the prices paid board before I made the deal. Now you guys totally reverse your story saying those stories could be fabricated.
I just got word that my new Salsa Red Sienna has arrived at the dealership and I will pick it up in 2 days.
Before I get into the financial office, any suggestions or help on what I should be paying for an extended warranty and are they transferable if I sell the vehicle. I read about a Platinum warranty in the archives. What is this? Would love any suggestions.
There is a Focus ZX5 that I am interested in. 5spd Zetec, base model, only AC for options. It has been sitting there for three months and I was the first to test drive it ever. I guess no one wants a car optioned that way.
How much of a loss would a dealership be willing to take to get rid of this car?
i never said to use the "prices paid" boards. i wouldnt take ANYONE's word for exactly what they paid on that thing, nor would i rely on information gathered.
the "prices paid" boards are simply a way for insecure people to "one-up" each other about how much money THEY SAY their dealer lost.
Resale isn't an issue with me as I keep them until they are driven into the ground. Eight years for my Honda, wrecked my truck, and, well, a Turbo Shadow still going.
That brings up an interesting point...if resale isn't an issue, what's the best deal on a) new and b) used cars?
They won't answer you until they check with their managers. They are not allowed to tell you what the best deal would be . I believe grandtotal told me that.
Anyways the best deal is what you feel comfortable paying. But if you want to get technical the best deal to me in my opinion would be this. Dealers correct me if I am wrong.
Used cars... Target would be Edmunds trade in values or less for example. Reality would be somewhere inbetween private party and trade in value if your buying off the street from someone.
If your buying from a dealer target would still be trade in but reality would be private party at best. Sometimes I see them go under private party but its not everyday.
New cars...
invoice - any incentives and rebates and if your lucky - some of the holdback.
Keep in mind supply and demand is what truly drives prices.
If you really want to get the best deal make sure you understand what a dealer will really pay for your trade in. And no its not guide book trade in values such as what Edmunds,KBB,NADA publishes. Usually your better off selling the car yourself unless your state allows you to deduct the amount you got from your trade against the amount you paid for the new car. Then you might be better off trading it in because now your paying less excise tax. You really just have to do the math to see which one way is better.
Always keep the new car negotiations and the trade in negotiations seperate. That way you can tell how much your really getting paid for the trade in and how much your really saving on the new.
Last but not least know your credit score and how it can affect your interest rate.
for the first time, i dont have a better answer...BILL IS LEARNING!!!!
i wouldnt shoot for edmunds trade-in value as a target. use that number, add $500, and then add about 2%, and you have a SERIOUS target. but also, dont expect your target to be a realistic #, just as bill said.
Bowke, I agree with you about the serious target. The only reason why I feel that trade in values are possible is because I have bought at these prices before from private party owners. Never seen it from a dealer but I have from private parties.
I once picked up a 99 Honda Civic in great shape miles equal to the year for Edmunds trade in value. Couple was wealthy and to be honest they just wanted it out of their driveway. I told them what I would give them and they took my first offer. Didn't even try to negotiate. So it is possible to buy at such low prices you just have to be in the right place at the right time.
Comments
I will say, the quickie places are well known for this though.
I hear that the dealers can change the rate and residual and term to fit my monthly payment, but if you already take the term out and say i want 36 month, and $$$$ monthly payment, would i be putting myself in a position where i will be ripped off?
Let's use a car that has a MSPR of 30K.
Thanks for your input.
the price only matters if you are planning to buy afterwards. if not, then your expenses are the same whether its a $400 payment at MSRP or a $400 payment at invoice.
if the payment is too high at MSRP, then obviously you go to the price.
Must vary by make and location.
I'm getting ready to trade in a 2002 Chevrolet s-10 Extreme pickup, with a little over 16k miles. I haven't been able to determine what a good trade in value for this truck would be. Any ideas?
Also, my son has installed a "system" in it with a speaker box behind the front seats. Should I remove the system, or would I be better off leaving it in there, since anyone wanting to buy this thing would probably want one in it?
Thanks in advance for your answer!
also, for a good idea of trade-in, go to the "real world trade-in values" discussion. give terry all the specifics, and you should get something within a few hundred bucks.
And, yes, ask Terry in that other board. He will need all of the details, miles, transmission etc and where you live.
I know, in my neck of the woods, it's pretty soft in the market right now.
The buyer's better off with a higher MF and lower selling price, though, since if the lease is held to term, it makes zero difference, but if the buyer decides to buy out the lease before the term expires, then he'll pay less (buyout price is lower with a lower initial price, but declines more slowly, so that the two buyout prices merge after 36 months).
My 94 Escort had a big stereo system in it before I got it, the guy had yanked it out, took us an hour to pull all the wires out of that car. When we were done we had 3 lbs of speaker wires laying on the garage floor.
But, if you don't know how they arrive at the numbers, you could be paying more than you have to. Why pay $XXX/month for a Honda Odyssey, if you can actually get the lease for ($XXX minus $30/month)?
Some cars are lousy deals to lease... Most domestics, Mazdas and a few others come to mind. Mostly, because they have low residual values. Others are great deals.. I mentioned the Odyssey because it is especially cheap to lease right now. That is actually a $30K car that you can lease for $300/month.
Knowing the cap cost, residual, and money factor will make you a smarter consumer and save you money. If you are willing to spend $300/month, but find out you can get it for $270.. that is a good thing.
regards,
kyfdx
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
Just like cars there are promotions and rebates and discounted interest programs - and on it goes. However they don't even give out free coffee and donuts in the repair section at the appliance store - Imagine that !
Does anyone have any idea of what kind of negotiated discount I could reasonably expect from an appliance like a new refrigerator.
Any info or comments would be appreciated?
Some cars.. such as the Honda Accord are going for close to invoice right now.. While an Acura TSX might be bringing $1000-$1500 over. If you narrow your search, you can check the prices paid forums to at least get a ballpark figure. That is a good place to start.
regards,
kyfdx
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
regards,
kyfdx
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
-Dan-
She wants a 2004 Honda Civic LX Sedan (Automatic)
Edmunds Invoice: $15,261
Edmunds TMV: $15,218
I see dealer cash of $400
I currently have a out the door price of: $14,980
Carsdirect states...
Invoice: $15,261
Target Price: $ 15,461
I see on what prices people paid that on average they are paying $14,700 - $14,450 for automatics.
What am I missing here? With only $400 in dealer cash why would a dealer go into holdback so much? Is there more dealer cash available that I am missing?
Please let me know.
Thanks!
Bill
The cheap prices also may have to do with # of units necessary to move for monthly allocations. A Civic is a cheap unit to dump, since there isn't much mark-up to begin with.
Bill
"1. Stay on topic
Town Hall insists that users stay on topic. Use the Search function to find a discussion relevant to your topic.
2. Courtesy is mandatory
Town Hall insists that users be courteous. We understand that our users are passionate about vehicles, and furthermore that sometimes you are right and someone else is wrong, and worse -- they won't admit it. But remember, ultimately Town Hall is about autos not egos."
Thanks and please continue the interesting discussion.
Car_man
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That one always puzzles me. No store would ever disclose information about what someone paid for their car for one thing.
Never once, has a customer of mine told me that someone called asking what they paid.
So...how does anybody know?
And, I think most people would tell a caller that it's None of Their Business what they paid for something. I know I would.
Besides, nost people quickly forget what they paid for something. Most aren't as obsessed over PRICE like some who frequent these forums.
No secret cash either.
Well I fought this battle and no one will budge under 14,800 here. So only one dealer is offering the free tires for life promotion. We have that dealer at $14,900 out the door. So we have decided to close with this dealer. If anyone thinks I have a bad price please speak up now.
Keep in mind invoice is: $15,261
Dealer cash from manufacture is: $400
No manufacture to customer rebates.
Thanks
Bill
Bill
You don't seriously expect any of the dealers here to respond without talking to their managers do you?
I don't like the free tire deals, but hey, go for it. Usually, to qualify for the "free tires for life", you have to follow the dealer's maintenance schedule, which adds mucho fluff over the manufacturer's schedule, and you pay retail for every 7,500, 15,000, 30k, and 60k service - hundreds, and possibly thousands of dollars over what the manufacturer recommends during ownership.
All that for a couple of sets of cheesy (they aren't using Michelins, I promise) tires? Nope, not me.
And Bowke, keep that property a secret....:) I'm very interested, give me a call 987-555-1234
That doesn't mean someone somewhere won't get it for a couple hundred less, but the price is good.
regards,
kyfdx
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
I've learned to stay out of the Prices Paid forums. A lot of these "prices" are simply not for real. People forget what they paid, and some, I think, just make up stories.
Not too many invoice deals in the Great Northwest are there? That is one thing I've learned from the prices paid boards... All the Oregon and Washington buyers are looking out-of-state.
regards,
kyfdx
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
It is amazing to watch what some people will do in oder to "save" 50.00!
It's not the money, it's just pure cheapness in a lot of cases.
He knew less about the Murano and the Maxima than I did. And I did all my research on-line. I just wanted to see them up close and test drive.
Anyway, he started telling me about his personal life and how selling cars is a side line because he has a business that takes up most of his *real* time and he sells cars for fun. (Sure-insert eye roll) I listened while nodding and *Umming.*
I told him I was not quite ready to sign and would call and/or come back in the next few months if I cannot get out of my lease. (long story)
Bottom line, I would like to get another salesman, when I go back to the dealer. How bad is it to try to ditch him for someone else? And how do I do this? I did not feel he was into selling, knew what he was doing and he really did not seem interested in the autos...he was more interested in telling me about his personal life and trying to glean personal facts about mine.
Thanks for the advice.
tell him that you need to talk with someone that has a bit more product knowledge, and would like another, more experienced salesperson. be upfront. this will accomplish 3 things:
1) he will be ok with it, because he will still get 1/2 the deal.
2) you will get a better salesman.
3) it will motivate him to learn his product knowledge better.
in 5 years, noone has ever had the guts to tell me they werent comfortable. if they had, i would probably have at least an extra deal every month.
also, the manager will appreciate it at negotiation time. you just helped them make a deal more likely.
Anyways, Drift I said my lowest qoute was 14800. 14900 is what she settled on because of the free tires for life offer. The dealer put down on paper that they will install the same exact tires that came from the factory when she bought the car. Plus the dealership was closer to her house so she felt it was worth the extra $100 I guess.
You want to know what's really strange. When you guys tore into me about the last deal we spoke about alot of you mentioned that I should of looked at the prices paid board before I made the deal. Now you guys totally reverse your story saying those stories could be fabricated.
Interesting!
Bill
Before I get into the financial office, any suggestions or help on what I should be paying for an extended warranty and are they transferable if I sell the vehicle. I read about a Platinum warranty in the archives. What is this? Would love any suggestions.
Sounds like you are a few months out anyway.
How much of a loss would a dealership be willing to take to get rid of this car?
Turboshadow
The car that nobody wants today is a car that nobody will want as a used car when you want to sell it someday.
Today's "bargain" will probably become a serious problem later for you.
the "prices paid" boards are simply a way for insecure people to "one-up" each other about how much money THEY SAY their dealer lost.
That brings up an interesting point...if resale isn't an issue, what's the best deal on a) new and b) used cars?
Turboshadow
Anyways the best deal is what you feel comfortable paying. But if you want to get technical the best deal to me in my opinion would be this. Dealers correct me if I am wrong.
Used cars... Target would be Edmunds trade in values or less for example. Reality would be somewhere inbetween private party and trade in value if your buying off the street from someone.
If your buying from a dealer target would still be trade in but reality would be private party at best. Sometimes I see them go under private party but its not everyday.
New cars...
invoice - any incentives and rebates and if your lucky - some of the holdback.
Keep in mind supply and demand is what truly drives prices.
If you really want to get the best deal make sure you understand what a dealer will really pay for your trade in. And no its not guide book trade in values such as what Edmunds,KBB,NADA publishes. Usually your better off selling the car yourself unless your state allows you to deduct the amount you got from your trade against the amount you paid for the new car. Then you might be better off trading it in because now your paying less excise tax. You really just have to do the math to see which one way is better.
Always keep the new car negotiations and the trade in negotiations seperate. That way you can tell how much your really getting paid for the trade in and how much your really saving on the new.
Last but not least know your credit score and how it can affect your interest rate.
i wouldnt shoot for edmunds trade-in value as a target. use that number, add $500, and then add about 2%, and you have a SERIOUS target. but also, dont expect your target to be a realistic #, just as bill said.
I once picked up a 99 Honda Civic in great shape miles equal to the year for Edmunds trade in value. Couple was wealthy and to be honest they just wanted it out of their driveway. I told them what I would give them and they took my first offer. Didn't even try to negotiate. So it is possible to buy at such low prices you just have to be in the right place at the right time.
1. at a dealer auction, with no test-drive or reconditioning.
2. from an UNINFORMED seller.
so you, as an informed person, took advantage of an elderly person...sounds like you are no better than car dealers, bill.