Any Questions for a Car Dealer?

bobotheclown · August 2004

Thanks for the input drift

What is the proper etiquette for test driving a car? Do I just go to a dealership and inform them that I'm only interested in a test drive or should I bargain price first then go in and leave if I'm not interested in the ride?

driftracer · August 2004

until you're really ready to buy - bringing price negotiations into the mix before you're really ready just wastes your time and theirs.

Just let them know that you're considering this model for your next vehicle and you haven't committed to buy anything - they'll try to get you to commit, that's their job, but stand your ground.

Take whatever information you can get, including your take on driving the vehicle, to your home and hash it all out - make your decision after doing some research, and make an educated offer -

Then, enjoy your new ride!

texasmom · August 2004

I live in Texas and all the Toyota Siennas in the Gulf States have very expensive packages that I don't want (first aid kits, pin striping, etc) that are apparently not really optional. I am getting the impression from forums that it would cost about $1000 more to buy any Sienna in my state versus going to a state where this isn't done. If I decide to buy a Sienna rather than an Odyssey it will be hard for me to accept paying that much more for it just because I'm buying in Texas. Do you all know anything about regional prices differences for Siennas and Odysseys? And do yo have any advice for a consumer?
I've appreciated the dealer's information in this forum. Thank you!

driftracer · August 2004

and just because all of the Siennas seem to be packaged similarly, they're not. Many dealerships will stockpile the mainstream sellers - the options and packages that are sold teh most - because that's what sells. That's good business, having the highest demand vehicles on hand - fewer locates, fewer factory orders, more vehicles sold right now, today. Others are out there, since there are plenty of dealers who will order more of an assortment.

I'll ask you to talk with your favorite dealership and have them locate one for you with only the options you want - if not available, you can always order.

rroyce10 · August 2004

** live in Texas and all the Toyota Siennas in the Gulf States have very expensive packages that I don't want (first aid kits, pin striping, etc) that are apparently not really optional **

The "hinky" stuff like heated pin stripes, soccer Mom first aid kits and the multi color day-glo weather stripping you can pass on, it's just a dealer add-on .. as far as your option groups, that will depend on you what you like and need .. I'm not quite sure what your lookin' for, but base Sienna's are going to be a little hard to find from Dallas to Delray beach ... by the way, what are you lookin' for ..?

Terry.

stickguy · August 2004

I have never had the joy of buying a Toyota in the south, but from reading these boards, it seems that the distributer adds all this stuff at the "port", so in effect it is a required option. I kinda thought it wasn't really up to the dealer (although they certainly can add more junk on). Can a Gulf states dealer request a perfectly stock model (just factory options) and actually get it?

dglozman · August 2004

--dealer told me several times that he was making "virtually no money on this sale"---
---"You should never discuss profit with a dealer anyway, it's none of your business, and it isn't polite"---

Well, when dealer is making statements like that, it means he is welcoming discussions on profits.
Why would he sell that car if he is not making "virtually no money on this sale" one way or another (maybe its a bonus or extra overcharged equipment (like $700-$800 alarm)).
And I wouldn't feel inconsiderate (just curious)to ask why on earth he still willing to sell that car to me without any profits for himself?

tiaralady · August 2004

What is the best time to buy a new vehicle? I have heard August was best month for end of model year clearance. Is this truly the best deal for a consumer.

jasmith52 · August 2004

There really is no best time to buy a car. The current incentives and market for the car you are interested will drive prices

However with that being said, here are some things to ponder.

1) Generally speaking, rebates, dealer cash and finance incentives start out the model year small and get bigger as the year gets long. So in pure dollars cars get a little less costly as the model year progresses. All this is dependant on how well the model is selling and how much the manufacturer needs to keep that factory humming. A good deal/incentive can occur at any time of the year. Your job is to watch prices and incentives and to jump on a good deal when you see it.

2) If you trade often, a good strategy may be to buy a relatively fresh model at the start of the year and forego any rebates. If you wait until the end of the year you have to compare the trade-in value with cars that are a year older. So even if you get a great deal on that car late in the model year, it may cost you more than you save when you trade it in.

3) Around March or so you can find (or may find) a few oddball cars left over from the previous model year for fire-sale prices. However they may be no bargain if you try to resell these dogs a few years later.

jlawrence01 · August 2004

>>And I wouldn't feel inconsiderate (just curious)to ask why on earth he still willing to sell that car to me without any profits for himself? <<

1) He might not be telling the truth.

2) Maybe he has had that car for 180 days as it is a dayglow orange Caravan stripper.

3) May have some bonus incentives to move a number of vehicles.

Occasionally, especially on used cars, you can find a pretty good deal where the sales manager sells you a car at pretty close or at his cost. A few years back, I was shopping at an upscale used car lot - Cadillac dealer in Cincinnati. He had a cream-puff low-mileage 4-cylinder Ciera (read stripped down economy model). Good car ***BUT*** the wrong car for a lot that features 1-2 year old LUXURY models. Made my offer in July, he called me mid-September accepting the deal. (I know the sales manager. He thought that he would rather have my offer than take the risk at the auctions.) The dealer makes very few mistakes in purchasing vehicles, BUT I have bought a couple of them.

danf1 · August 2004

Sorry to get a discussion rolling and disappear, but I had a day off and didn't want to think about cars. I did not intend to fire anybody up, just answer a question with information that I had at my disposal.

Also, I would never state that Hyundais and Kias don't get turned in for lemon law concerns. have personally dealt with a few Hyundais being bought back by the manufacturer, and at least half of them were for minor concerns. It seems to me that Hyundai will repurchase a vehicle from a customer to shut them up and avoid bad press.

as far as being a statistic junkie, I'm guilty. I do love statistics because they are usually based on factual information as opposed to opinion.

tiaralady · August 2004

What is the best time to buy a new vehicle? I have heard August was best month for end of model year clearance. Is this truly the best deal for a consumer.

kyfdx · August 2004

I think Mathias main point was... starting into that discussion does nothing to help you get a better deal.. It just gives the salesman more ammunition to get you off your number. Focusing on the dealer's profit gets you away from the most important information: What is the least you can pay for the car.

Not that I'm speaking for him... that was just the way I read it, and agree wholeheartedly with.

regards,
kyfdx

mfullmer · August 2004

I always get my cars towards the end of the model year. Even if you buy the first ones of a model year, the fact remains that as soon as it is registered it depreciates nearly the same as the last ones of the previous model year.

What I like most about doing that is that I always get a credit for low miles. If I buy a 2004 right this instant, the used value is going to expect mileage of 12,000 or so (0 added/deducted). If I have 1,000 or so I am going to get a credit. This way I am always ahead on the mileage part. Of course that doesn't work if you drive above the average mileage.

bowke28 · August 2004

definitely. a 2003 taurus/sable with 20k miles or so will be all over the papers for $10k or so.

best bang for the buck in used cars.

OR

a 3 year old CERTIFIED taurus or sable from a ford or mercury dealer will run in the $8-$9k range, and still get you ~4.9% up to 60 months if you qualify.

bowke28 · August 2004

the "port-added" stuff is complete B.S.

if its not on the MSRP sticker, then it wasnt added "at the port".

kyfdx · August 2004

They have 12 regions/distributors around the country and they all have their own little fiefdoms.. It IS possible that a regional distributor adds crap packages to all their cars before the dealer gets them. They even have different ways to figure residuals in different regions.

regards,
kyfdx

bowke28 · August 2004

the best time to buy a vehicle is when you find the vehicle you want. other than that, there is no other time when its worth spending the money.

if you see the day-glo green blah-mobile that you have been searching for months for, jump on it. dont worry about whether its august of march. get what you want.

driftracer · August 2004

Just to clarify -

"It seems to me that Hyundai will repurchase a vehicle from a customer to shut them up and avoid bad press"

In my experience, with over 900 Hyundai cases and 700 Kia cases, both of these manufacturers actually fight HARDER than the others about buying back a car - they'll have their defense team to deposition after deposition (I've been deposed by H/K 4 times), and use other stalling tactics to drag the cases out.

These two are certainly NOT the ones looking to save face and take care of the consumer - quite the opposite. They fight harder than anyone.

mfullmer · August 2004

if you see the day-glo green blah-mobile that you have been searching for months for, jump on it. dont worry about whether its august of march.

Actually one might want to wait a little bit in that instance, just to get the sanity test results back.

But you are right. The right time to get a car is when you want one. Like me, I'm waiting for my '05 Solara Convertible to arrive. Yes, I probably could wait until the winter and get a better deal (of course, maybe not) but I want it now and I've made that decision.

danf1 · August 2004

It has been at least two years since I have personally dealt with that situation, so maybe there has been some change.

jasmith52 · August 2004

Mfullmer:

I think you missed the point. If you buy a car every three years and put on 36k miles in that time then...

When you are trading - the issue would then be, does a 2001 model with 36k miles sell for more than a 2000 model with 36k miles. And if it does then is that amount greater than the relative discount that you received by buying at the end of the model year.

The answer is not so cut and dried as you indicate.

Your method (if I got this correct) is to compare a 2000 model year kept for say 36 months with a 2001 model kept for 48 months. The comparison is not the same.

The real question is... What does it cost me to drive a new car for three years. And does it really cost less to buy a car at the end of the model year than at the beginning.

driftracer · August 2004

mine are mine - I'm not about to argue with you on the severity of Hyundai lemon law cases. I see things on a daily basis that would make most people freak out. Having Elantras drop transmissions regularly, like one car I saw last week that was on its 6th transmission by 20,000 miles, tells me these aren't "minor" issues. The cars I've seen have ranged from 1997-2005 model years, just for info.

Besides, minor issues don't get cars bought back. The problems have to meet the criteria of the state's lemon law or the Mag-Moss federal statute.

mfullmer · August 2004

No you didn't understand me. I didn't say keep the newer one for longer. I'm talking about value after say two years (about how long I keep my cars) and it DOES work:

Example: (Using NADA)

Purchase a 2002 or 2003 Chevrolet Tahoe in July or August, 2002. Same configurations:

Scenario #1: Purchase 2002 in July, 2002. At that time Chevrolet was offering $3,000 rebate. At 8k miles per year (what I put on my vehicles) the vehicle now has 16,150 miles on it. The car's worth today: $29,300(with $950 added for low miles)

Scenarios #2: Purchase 2003 in August 2002. At that time Chevrolet was offer $0 in rebates. At 8k miles per year (what I put on my vehicles) the vehicle now has 16,000 miles on it. The car's worth today: $32,700 (with $400 added for low miles)

They are essentially worth the same with the rebate on the 2002. Now, If I decide I'm only keeping it a year then the 2002 is the better deal

jasmith52 · August 2004

Mfullmer:

By your own numbers you have demonstrated the futility and lack of real-world savings by buying year-end cars.

Many cars are not as good as your example.

The other point is that by buying year-end cars you get a product that is one year out of date on safety/power/style/content/ and often selection relative to the new model.

Do you get it yet ?

mfullmer · August 2004

I get it very well, as I've been doing it for years. The example does not show futility. On the contrary, by getting the 2002 for $4,700 less (I forgot to include that I was able to get the 2002 for $1,700 less than they were willing to deal on the 2003 for), after the rebate, not only did I finance less (thus paying less interest in the two years) but it was much easier to deal on the vehicle. The only time you would have an issue of "out of date" things is if the vehicles are changing from year to the other. Most don't (other than minor changes) change in vehicle dynamics.

jasmith52 · August 2004

OK:

I tried to enlighten you, but nobodys listening.

It's your money - do what you want

mfullmer · August 2004

Ignorance? Since you have no idea what I'm talking about you can't claim to know whether I'm ignorant or not. I keep spreadsheets on all of my vehicles from the negotiation stage to when I turn them in.

Just because you cannot comprehend it, doesn't mean it's ignorance on my part.

On the contrary, thinking that your way is the only way and no one else's could possibly work is the largest sign of ignorance.

What exactly are your qualifications again?

texasmom · August 2004

When you check availability on the computer for the Sienna you'd consider buying in Texas you always see these so-called options that do drive price up by $500 to 1000. They remind me of the "stainsafe" scotchguarding package I paid $500 (voluntarily, and stupidly) once after purchasing some high end furniture. Well, that Stainsafe purchase was something the salesperson talked me into buying and I could have said "no" to her but didn't. These "port added" options are not really options--they've already been "done" to the vehicle and aren't traditional factory option packages. Maybe it just reminds me of the Stainsafe dumb move--because it just gets me so angry that I'm getting closer to wanting an Odyssey just thinking about having to fly to another state to avoid that situation. I need to know if the Gulf States people ever "remove" that stuff from the pricing or is it forever and always going to make Toyotas cost more down here. Again, thanks so much to those who have responded so far. To any Gulf States Dealers--what do you do when potential buyers say that don't want the "first aid kit, roadside assistance, pin stripe, scotchguard, etc" package. By the way, I am in the market for the highest end minivans available in either Honda or Toyota lines but don't want all wheel drive.

audia8q · August 2004

I want to know who's paying $29,300 for an 2002 Tahoe. I can buy these all day at the auction for $20-21K. I would love to make $8000-9000 profit on a sale.

bowke28 · August 2004

and scotchguard, paint sealant and undercoating. all these are done AT THE DEALER, and are required to have an addendum sticker disclosing the items and price. only the dealer is allowed to add things to the car. even with distributorships for toyotas, they are not allowed to add anything that is not already on the original sticker.

case in point...

the nissan 350z is built in japan, but they add little things like aluminum kick-plates, splash guards, spoilers, and such at the POE (point of entry). they do this to avoid damage to accessories in shipping. but all these items are listed as either standard or optional equipment on the sticker beforehand.

kyfdx · August 2004

bowke.... see my post about Toyota distributors.. It is a different ballgame with them.. Especially in the Southeast Region..

mfullmer · August 2004

I'm not sure who (if anyone) is buying them for that. Those are the NADA numbers. There are several dealers here selling 2002 Tahoes, similarly equipped, with mileage from 20k - 35k for $29,500 - 31,200

bowke28 · August 2004

im talking about federal statutes here. they are not allowed to add items that are not already listed on the monronie sticker. period.

mfullmer · August 2004

That is not true with Toyota. In the Southeast there is the "Toyo Guard Plus Protection Group" that is listed on the Monroney but is not done until the car gets to the regional distributor. This package includes:

Exterior Paint Sealant, Undercoating, Interior Protection, and VIN etching that is done before it gets to the dealer.

mfullmer · August 2004

They are allowed to add anything they want. It doesn't matter whether or not it is on the Monroney. They do, however, have to list it on a seperate sticker.

kyfdx · August 2004

Toyota sells them to an independent distributor.. I'm pretty sure they can do what they want, just like the dealer. It is a different set-up than Honda, Mazda, Nissan, etc.

regards,
kyfdx

texasmom · August 2004

So, would you be able to tell me, do I have to pay what they are asking for that "toyo" thing and other similar packages that are on so many of the vehicles? I mean, do I have to pay it if I want to buy it in Texas? And if so, does that mean that people in Texas are paying more for their Toyotas than in non-Gulf States Toyota places? Does it affect the buyer's out-the-door price when comparing "apples" to "apples plus some extra paint sealant/interior protection?"

mfullmer · August 2004

What I have found is that if you really want the car but don't want those things and they don't have one without them they will usually let you pay the invoice price on those items. After all, they have still paid for them.

texasmom · August 2004

How would you find out the true invoice price on those things? Also, I wonder if there is any way to find out if people in my state end up paying more for their Toyotas than, say, people in the Mid-Atlantic region? Is it possible that, even with these silly packages, we still pay about the same? How would I find out?

kyfdx · August 2004

with every Toyota dealer in various cities has been horrible. I love the cars, can't stand the sales experience... If it is really as bad as you say, wait for the '05 Odyssey.. It will be a brand new model.

I really doubt you'll find a cheaper or better buying experience by leaving your region... Just my experience.

regards,
kyfdx

driftracer · August 2004

why not just take a few days off, fly up to Colorado Springs, or another nice destination, and drive your new, non-added-onto Toyota home?

audia8q · August 2004

I spent all day yesterday at the largest dealer auction in New England buying cars. Tahoes and Suburbans are selling for Galves or less...which translates into firesale prices. Used SUV sales are terrible right now.

kyfdx · August 2004

That isn't a fire sale.. that is fire damaged!! Doesn't Galves have the absolutely lowest values of any of the used car guides?

texasmom · August 2004

The "mom" part of my life makes such a jaunt kind of difficult. I would LOVE to drive somewhere alone, anywhere at all. But, if I had that option I probably wouldn't be in the market for a minivan, to tell you the truth! But thanks for the nice daydream!

driftracer · August 2004

is arrange picking up vehicle, fly it at night, pick it up first thing, and roll out.

Depending on where you are in TX, and where you find a vehicle, it might only be one day away.

mfullmer · August 2004

I agree totally. The dealerships are flooded with them here.

texasmom · August 2004

where is "here" please? Thanks!

driftracer · August 2004

about SUVs like the Tahoe and Yukon - sorry, tex.

mfullmer · August 2004

As profile says, Atlanta, GA (If you click on the name of the poster it will bring up the profile)

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