Any Questions for a Car Dealer?

mark156 · August 2004

I feel the same as you guys, why pay a premium for something, especially automobiles, when they will go lower with a little time (usually less than a year). Drift is right, I remember our local Ford/Lincoln/Mercury dealer marked up the T-bird $10,000 over MSRP; talk about QUICK DEPRECIATION!

Neiman Marcus had the "special" T-birds in their catalog that were black exterior, silver or white top and black and silver interior (if I remember correctly). Now, that would be the collector car to have if any. I think it was offered for $45,000. Does anyone else remember that?

Mark

weaselinsuit · August 2004

Always wondered why Ms. Cleo didn't see the investigation or the criminal charges coming..... : )

qbrozen · August 2004

slight sidetrack, but where do i find info on the $4250 incentives and rebates on the rx8? edmunds still only shows the $500 college grad rebate that has been available through mazda for a VERY long time.

kyfdx · August 2004

I got the info from Car_man on the Lease Questions board. Go to that board and do a search for RX-8, and it should show up.

regards,
kyfdx

P.S.: I bet that Rich, who frequents this board, could give you this information also.. I believe $750 of that money is a unit bonus for the dealer if they reach XXX units for the month.

kyfdx · August 2004

It looks like the $4250 in incentives is only on 2-year leases... If that works for you, it is a great deal.. Reports of 2-year leases for $325/month with no cap cost reduction.

Car_man "Lease Questions - Ask Here" Aug 18, 2004 7:46am!keywords=allin:msgtext%20limit:.ee9394d%20RX-8

mfullmer · August 2004

These things aren't selling, that's why there are discounts/incentives.

I just did a search around Atlanta and there 120 RX-8s sitting on lots. 59 of those have cloth seats. Why would anyone get a car like that with cloth seats?

Of course I think they are ugly so I'm not surprised.

bowke28 · August 2004

looks like a s2000 rear end with a 50's ferrari front end...and pickup truck doors...horrible.

kyfdx · August 2004

of every Datsun/Nissan Z car in the 2+2 configuration.. It just ruins the lines of the car.. give it to me in a 2-seater.

Funny, though. The G35 coupe is basically a 2+2 350Z, yet I find it has more pleasing lines than the Z car.

regards,
kyfdx

isellhondas · August 2004

a lot of people don't like leather. I know if I lived in Atlanta with the heat and humidity I sure wouldn't want leather!

audia8q · August 2004

the RX8 incentives are for a 24 month lease only...

$2500 lease cash
$1000 Maz credit lease rebate
$750 dealer cash if dealer hits objectives.

If the customer wants to buy the car there are no customer cash incentives other than college grad or invitation only incentives.

The RX8 and the 350Z both avg around 2500 sales per month.

kyfdx · August 2004

Thanks... I posted that after I went back and looked up the info.

It makes you wonder.. why would Mazda give you that kind of incentive to move the car, only to get it back at a pretty high residual later? It seems that it would make more sense for them to only give the incentive on a purchase, thereby getting rid of the car for good.

regards,
kyfdx

Edit: MF of .00305 I guess that would be one reason.. 8% interest for the two years.

boomer1b · August 2004

There are 2 of them used a 2 different mom and pop used car stores here in Podunk NY. 1 red, 1 silver. I thought they were hot items?

mfullmer · September 2004

I feel just the opposite, living in Atlanta. I can't stand the feel of cloth seats when it's hot and humid. They make me feel hotter. Plus I can never get comfortable in a car, when I'm wearing dress pants, that has cloth seats. It feels like your pants are always bunched up as the cloths grab each other.

To each his own, I guess.

qbrozen · September 2004

i'm also curious why mazda would do this on a 2-year lease. i guess this isn't necessarily just a question for you as a mazda rep, but any rep/dealer could address this from a business perspective. isn't this going to just come back and bite them in 2 years? What is the residual on such a deal? I've seen ads for $299 a month. Someone on the RX8 board is trying to buy one right now with this deal and states that it is costing nothing more than the first month's payment to get that car out the door.

as sort of another question on this, what if someone had a trade-in on this deal? Is it possible to drive a new rx8 for free for 2 years?? I might have to give this some serious thought!

p.s. OH, wait, thinking over, i always forget that little "gotcha" that the insurance company raises my rates across the board because I'm required to carry higher insurance on the leased car and, therefore, on ALL my cars (because my company doesn't allow different limits on different cars on the same policy).

kyfdx · September 2004

Residual is 65% on manual shift.. BUT, I can't remember what mileage allowance that is for.. residual is 2% lower for automatic transmission.

bowke28 · September 2004

get a new insurance company. you shouldnt have to.

most of the time, they tell you to get GAP insurance. with manufacturer-subsidized leases, GAP is already included.

robr2 · September 2004

i'm also curious why mazda would do this on a 2-year lease.

Probably because dealers are screaming as they keep coming in and piling up on their lots: "Mazda - do something to help us move this iron."

They'll deal with the returns in 2 years - who really knows what the market will be for used RX-8's then?

qbrozen · September 2004

believe me, i'd love to. these guys are very strict and very tough to deal with. BUT, when it comes to accident time, they do a great job AND, unfortunately, they are the cheapest rates in Jersey (which, supposedly, is why they are very strict).

But we just recently got Geico to come to our state, so i might have to take a look at them. But I am hearing rumors that they offer low rates to get you in the fold and then raise them a year or 2 later. So I might have to sit back and see how it all pans out for other people. That's the other thing with my current company, once you leave, it ain't easy to go back. They are pretty much like the mob, I think. As long as you don't cross them and you behave, you get their protection ... but step out of line and you get the horsehead in your bed.

bowke28 · September 2004

i understand...but they cant force you to buy GAP insurance when you already have it. thats like me adding a spoiler to a car and telling you that you cant buy the identical car right next to it without the spoiler...you HAVE to take this one.

qbrozen · September 2004

oh, but its not GAP insurance (i don't think). Its just higher limits. Something to do with the leasing companies as far as I know. so (and i'll just guess numbers here because i forget what they are) you normally have a minimum requirement of carrying 15K/25K/35K (personal, liability, and property? or something like that?), you must, in order to lease, raise your minimum coverage to 35k/50k/100k. Where the insurance company screws you in this case is that they force you to raise your limits on your policy, not on your car. So even my 20 year old Alfa Romeo would have the same limits as the leased car.

kyfdx · September 2004

Yes, but.. those limits are for liability insurance.. It has nothing to do with the value of the car you are driving.... I urge you to get the highest limits you can.. 100K/300K/100K at a minimum... It will protect your own assets and others that share the road with you.

regards,
kyfdx

That is: perperson/peroccurence/propertydamage.. but it is all LIABILITY insurance.

bowke28 · September 2004

check your state laws, because alot of people went through this a number of years back here in KY, as well as a bunch of other states, and this practice was deemed unfair.

NJ may still be out of this loop, though...heck, they hired the Gov's boy toy as homeland security director...cant expect much better in the insurance laws.

tornado25 · September 2004

"OH, wait, thinking over, i always forget that little "gotcha" that the insurance company raises my rates across the board because I'm required to carry higher insurance on the leased car"

Huh? Most lease companies require 100,000 per person bodily injury, 300,000 per occurrance bodily injury, 100,000 per accident property damage. 1) if you're not already there, why not? 2) if the Alfa is low usage, you should have a short mileage classification there anyway, so the increase shouldn't be so bad 3)as kyfdx pointed out, having those limits are good sense, regardless of whether the leasing company or big bad insurance company makes you.

Seriously, though, it doesn't take much for an crash to start pushing those limits and I don't care if you have "nothing" or not, if you exhaust limits and you injure someone, they are totally justified in pursuing the additional damages from YOU. That means you either spend your life unemployed (so they have nothing to attach) or poor, working to pay someone else. Just food for thought.

kyfdx · September 2004

All insurance companies require the same LIABILITY limits on all cars you are driving, in every state..... Why? Because your liability insurance covers you even if you are driving someone else's car. It is only collision and comprehensive limits that can vary from car to car in one household.

regards,
kyfdx

qbrozen · September 2004

ok, we are way off topic, i think, but just a quick point for those who think higher limits are a no-brainer: you really gotta live and pay NJ insurance to understand the problem. We're not talking a few dollars difference here. I certainly understand your points. I'm all for carrying insurance, no doubt, but when you are paying close to $3K a year for a married couple where neither has ever been the cause of an accident or cost their insurance a dime in claims, it becomes VERY difficult to justify paying any more than you absolutely have to.

kyfdx - thanks for the explanation. sounds so simple that is amazing to me my insurance company could never explain that to me when I asked.

tornado25 · September 2004

In WI, the company I work for has each vehicle on its own policy. (It works simpler that way for accident-free rating and such). They prefer, but do not require matching limits on each vehicle. It's a terrible rule, unfortunately. When a company has multiple vehicles on one policy, I can see why each vehicle has the same limits.

As for NJ's insurance market, I understand that you're required to have it and the rates are terrible. I also understand that in a market like that, increasing the limits likely is relatively expensive (here, going from 50/100 to 100/300 is about $20 for most people, semi-annually). The only comment I would have, though, is if you are already spending $3000 a year on a policy that's virtually certain not protect you in the case insurance is really needed (a fatal crash, for instance), isn't the additional premium worth it? I mean, you say it's quite expensive. Is that a total of $200 a year to go to 100/300? $2000? To me, a $200 increase on top of $3000 isn't such a big deal. (It's the $3000 in the first place that would promptly make me leave the state).

kyfdx · September 2004

It doesn't surprise me that your insurance company couldn't explain it to you.. Many industries have order-takers, instead of professionals working for them.

I remember when I was closing on my first house in 1985.. The lady that handled the closing at the local bank (where I was getting the mortgage), kept saying: "The city taxes are pro-rated based on their physical (sic) year". Once would have been okay, but she must have said it three times.. My real estate agent was just rolling her eyes, and I started checking the paperwork very closely. I didn't have the heart to take her aside later and explain what "fiscal" meant, but my agent didn't have a heart, so she didn't have any problem correcting her..LOL

tornado makes a good point... If you are into it for $3K already, just ask and see what the difference is... Also, you might actually get better quotes from other companies, if you are asking for more than the minimum liability coverage.. that alone might put you in a better rating class.. can't hurt to try.

regards,
kyfdx

Kirstie_H · September 2004

Let's try to take the insurance conversation to one of those discussions so that other members can locate the good informations you're all sharing. They'll never find it in here!

kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

rroyce10 · September 2004

**heck, they hired the Gov's boy toy as homeland security director... cant expect much better in the insurance laws**

Besides that .. he's not even an American citizen ..!!!!!!!

Terry

Kirstie_H · September 2004

The recent posts about auto insurance and driving records have been moved to the auto insurance discussion. Carry on!

kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

benjaminh · September 2004

We've got the old-fashioned kind of GM card, the kind they don't issue any more that allows you to put up to a $3500 rebate on even low-priced cars. Right now we have c.$2800 in rebates. We have two cars--a 1988 Oldsmobile and a 2002 Accord. We're hoping to keep the Olds going for another year and a half (we'll see if that happens) and then our GM card will have maxed out at $3500. The problem is that I don't think I want a GM automobile. I kind of like the Malibu and the Pontiac G6 looks even nicer, and I know the Pontiac Vibe is really a Toyota, but I think what I really want is another Accord. So what, you say, go buy the Accord.

Well, we probably will, but it will be hard to afford, and I've got what probably is a silly and laughable idea, but I'd still like the opinion of a salesperson.

What if I bought in a year or so something like a Chevy Aveo. My guess is it's a pretty nasty little car, although I don't really know. Anyway, right now there's a Chevy dealer in my town advertising $2000 off the list price of $9998 of one of these little cars. If I then took my $3500 from the GM card off, I'd get the car for the amazing price of $4500. Add tax, title, etc., and we're up to c.$5000. Then, and here's where it gets tricky and perhaps silly, I drive it directly to my Honda dealer and try to trade it in on an Accord. Perhaps I could get the Honda dealer to give me $6000 or so for the car, which they might then be able turn around and sell for $7000. In this fantasy, I would get my $20k Accord for $1k less. It would be a lot of work, but $1k is a lot more than I get for a hard day of work at my job.

Any thoughts?

Thanks in advance.

isellhondas · September 2004

Call the Honda dealer first and ask them what they would pay you for that Daewoo er...Aveo.

qbrozen · September 2004

What if you found a relative or friend who really DOES want a GM and wants one now? Then use your $3500 on their car and let them pay you $2500? They get $1K off and you get $1K in your pocket.

heck, i would like that deal ... but i don't want a GM either.

steine13 · September 2004

You rang?

First up, the fun doesn't stop with the $2,800. My local Pontiac dealer told me I can put a down payment on a CC, but I'd be liable for the 2% fee.
UNLESS I used the GM Card, in which case there would be no fee.

So the following requires a little finesse, and some cash money short term. Think home equity line of credit or Bank of Dad.

Pick a nice silver 05 Vibe with automatic and pwr package. Low price, easy resale. Tell the dealer you want it, and put $10k down on the spot. $10k on the GM Card, mind you.

Comes the next statement date, you'll find you owe $10k on your card, but you've got an extra $500 in GM Card Rebate. This only works if you haven't gotten a lot of rebate money since your anniversary date, as you are limited to $500/year with the old card. So maybe you can only get $400 rebate, in which case you put $8k down.

Anyway, NOW you go back to the dealer, pay the balance with your short-term cash, and drive home in the car.

Then you can do two things: Flip the car to someone who wants it -- with $3k+ to play with, this ought to be easy -- or drive it yourself. In that case, you go straight to your credit union and let them finance as much as you want. They'll put a lien against the car, and give you a bunch of cash. Which you use to pay off the CC and replenish your short-term cash.

The reason we're doing this at the Pontiac dealer is that the Vibe is a good car and is reasonably popular. Since you'll be out the sales tax, we want to keep it cheap, otherwise a Silverado 4x4 or a Suburban would be a good choice.

Good luck,
-Mathias

ramped · September 2004

Interesting plan.

Sadly for me, all of the gymnastics to get the $500 rebate right back on the card aren't necessary.

With plenty of help from the Mrs., we seem to easily reach that $500 limit each year, well before the anniversary date

gtahobe · September 2004

Get yourself a new credit card from a gas company that gives you $ off of gas. Mine (BP) doesn't have a yearly limit (that I've ever reached), and the gas is good on any car, GM or Toyota!

ramped · September 2004

I use a Discover Card along with the GM Card. Discover only rebates 1/4 percent at Wal-Mart (where I practically live between groceries and other items), so that's where I use the GM Card.

kyfdx · September 2004

My $.02..

Shell Mastercard..

5% on gas.. 1% on everything else.... taken off your balance the next month.. best deal I've found...

dglozman · September 2004

I think I saw someone was selling his GM points on EBAY. This might be an alternative...

cuda4 · September 2004

Refered to the forum,
It appears Im in the middle of an ongoing topic, yet need help with another. I am researching buying a conversion van. I have spoken with Sherrod Vans(the conversion upfitter)directly and they tell me the cost from them directly is basically the van I want at $500 over dealer cost plus the price of the package and options. As an informed consumer, I know cars can be bought for less than "Invoice" with dealer rebates, hold backs and the like. Does anyone know if since the upfitter is independent of the actual dealer, can the converters basic van invoice price be negoiacted? Furthermore, I am led to believe many of the conversion industry dealers are receiving fleet pricing and bailment arrangements possibly paying nothing for the vans from the big three. How does one identify fleet pricing and can someone further explain bailment arrangements and where in all this can the consumer negotitiate? Lastly, can someone speak to a general markup percent on conversions if known, and if not can someone confirm the existence of invoices on the conversion packages them selves. Than you. Joe

driftracer · September 2004

like with mobile homes and campers/RVs, items used for decorating the inside of a house were not meant to be mobile, and as a service advisor, I would literally run away from a conversion van when it drove it with the laundry list of problems.

Conversion van companies drop like flies, leaving the consumer and selling dealer holding the bag to sort out warranty issues.

Also like RVs and mobile homes, they have HORRIBLE resale value.

That said, make your deal like you would on any other vehicle on the lot. There's usually a very strong markup from the actual conversion cost, so dealer profits are high.

I've been with three dealer groups that have taken the same course of action - they started selling them because of the great profit margins, dealt with droves of angry consumers with their laundry lists of problems, then had the service department make deals with the Devil just to get normal warranty items handled - all three dealer groups gave up on the conversion van idea because the profits weren't worth the residual headaches and loss of customer base.

To give you an idea of the markup, in 1993, I sold a new Ford E150 with a Mark III high top conversion - it retailed for $49,995, we discounted it $2,000 - our front end profit was over $13,000 and I made 30% of that (after pack), or $4,020 - on ONE car deal....

steine13 · September 2004

You might get a touch too complicated here, what with bailments and ailments and ointments... I'll give you the skinny as far as I know it. I should also point out I'm not a car dealer, but I play one on Edmunds occasionally.

Very briefly, the vans are decontented versions of whatever cargo van the company has. For instance, they are shipped with "temporary" drivers and no passenger seats. AFAIK, they go to the conversion co. and get tarted up with windows, raised roofs, and all kinds of trailer park accoutrements and bordello fanciments.

The packages get marked up 1-200% from cost and sent out to the dealers, who post big discounts in the windows and wait for you to walk onto the lot.
------------------------------------------------

None of this is very important, and there's really no point in getting all fancy about finding out exact cost etc.

Here's what you need to know: These things drop like anvils on Jupiter. Two years old and with 30-40k, they're worth approximately half of the street price -- never mind MSRP -- of a new one. Get one of those, esp. now that it's fall and dealers are brooming them everywhere in order to make room for 4x4's and other sensible shoes.

Don't get me wrong, I kinda like these vans myself for vacationing and the like. But to buy one new is a losing proposition.

You should also know that the market for these has been slowly shrinking ever since minivans became popular, and many conv co's have gone belly up. You also might have noticed how gas is now $1.80 or so; that didn't help resale either.

When you find a used one that you like, post a detailed description over on real-world trade-in values, and with a little luck, Terry will tell you what it's worth.

Good luck,
-Mathias

rroyce10 · September 2004

... **These things drop like anvils on Jupiter** ............... yup, thats what they do ..l.o.l....

Mathias, can I use that one, it's great .l..o..l...

Terry.

driftracer · September 2004

and the analogy fits !!

stever · September 2004

I spent 10 months living out of my minivan back in '99/'00 and it was new. I don't think I would have wanted to do that trip (32k) in an unknown used van, and I think that's part of the thinking in getting a new conversion van - you just trust it more, mechanically.

200% markup huh? I wonder if it's better to try to find one at a RV dealer instead of a car dealer?

Steve, (not the Host here)

rroyce10 · September 2004

.. **I spent 10 months living out of my minivan back in '99/'00** ...

I read something about that .. isn't that the time when the bounty hunter "Dog" Chapman caught you in Mexico ...?

Terry

)

driftracer · September 2004

speaker, living in a van, down by the river...

dbgindy · September 2004

LOL!!! Great Chris Farley reference!

Duncan

driftracer · September 2004

until he died.

robr2 · September 2004

These things drop like anvils on Jupiter.

Out of the mouths of rocket scientists come gems like this!!

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