Here is my problem... On Oct 19, I went to my local dealer and made a deal to purchase a car that I have researched and decided it was the one for me. We agreed on a price, agreed on a price on my trade in and came up with an amount which was to be paid (in cash) when my car arrived at the dealership... I was told that the car would not take longer than 2 weeks to get to the dealership upon which, my trade and cash would be handed over for the car. Yesterday afternoon, they call me and say that they can't get my car with the options I want untill the end of November. To me this is not a huge deal, I don’t mind waiting. But because the car will take a month to arrive, they want to redo the deal when the car arrives!!! They stated that market conditions may change and they would have to reassess my trade in when the car arrives. I signed papers (Motor Vehicle Purchase Agreement) with all the information on it with all the original figures.... What are my options? Can dealerships actually do this?? Do the original papers I signed have no value??? I got top dollar on my trade and because of this, I feel the dealership is now trying to back out of our original and sighed deal!!! Any suggestions would be great. Thank you…
If you really want that particular new car and if you don't mind driving your present car for a few more weeks, then I think you should wait until the new car comes in and then see what kind of deal you can get. If you don't like the deal, then don't buy the car. Buy another one instead.
Maybe the dealer is being honest. If they aren't, how would you ever prove it?
There is no reason to get upset about this. One time a dealer and I agreed on an exact price, but when I went to pay for the car they would not honor the deal. Rather then arguing about it, I just left and bought a car somewhere else.
Instead of fighting with the dealer, spend your time doing something worthwhile - like practicing your short game.
You have signed an agreement, but have not taken possession of the vehicle - they can re-assess your trade.
I've done that when a customer would order a vehicle - knowing 8-10 weeks would go by, I would agree to a number on the trade that I knew would be good in two months. I also signed an agreement with the customer that if they wreck the car, flood it, etc, I could back out; and if the ordered unit isn't what they want, they can back out.
Your deal is different - they agreed on a number for your trade with a 1-2 week delivery period. It's not your fault that 1-2 weeks turned into 6-8 weeks. I say either they stick to the original deal or you find another dealer. They can't expect you to take less for your trade simply because they can't produce a car when they said they could.
Is the same arriving later? Or is this a different car? Does your purchase agreement have a VIN# on it? Is the delivery time stated?
Usually if I do a factory order for someone I can guarantee the trade-in value for a window of about 2 months, providing it shows up in the expected condition with the expected miles. Usually. There are exceptions, however. For instance if the trade is a Mustang convertible, the trade value will be much different in August than it is in October. Sometimes what happens is that the person with the Mustang will get some trade-in numbers in August and expect them to be the same for trading in October.
I'm concerned that the dealer is saying that market conditions "may" change. It doesn't sound like they have told you what they think the trade will be worth in November. Unless your trade is somewhat unusual (like the Mustang above) they should be able to reasonably predict its value 6 weeks from now.
As for more information on my dilemma: my trade in is a 97 Chev Tahoe which should not lose any value once winter hits. There is no time stated on the Motor Purchase Agreement in regards to delivery time on the new car. There is also no VIN# for the new car as they did not have one on the lot that I wanted. The deal was done with the understanding that they would find a car with the options I wanted, "No problem to get that car..." I think that the dealership made the deal and then realized that they could not get a car as easily as they wanted. But I do not understand how that point is my problem other then the fact that they do not want to honor the original deal… I feel the Sales Manager approved and signed the deal, they should stick to it. What do think? Thanks for your feedback...
not an ordered vehicle. I don't think you actually have a deal. No VIN#, or factory order, there is no deal. Just try to work with them, but look around too.
Obviously they thought they could scrounge one from another dealership, but failed. I'd let them know that there is no deal until they find a vehicle, and then be looking around elsewhere at the same time. If they find one, or order one, you should have approval rights on it before it's committed.
You are correct in stating that the dealer made the deal first, then realized they could not get the vehicle. Sometimes timing works against you. I don't think anyone is trying to screw you here, someone just stuck out their neck too far and got cut.
As far as your trade goes, I think the dealership will have the final say. You said the value of your Tahoe should not lose value once winter hits. Maybe, maybe not. That is speculation on your part.
What could happen to your Tahoe between now and the new vehicle's arrival? Well, let's see........ it could be wrecked, stolen, driven cross-country adding thousands of miles, keyed, damaged by a hailstorm, broken into, or many other things. Expecting the dealer to offer the same valuation after damage has occured in unreasonable, IMO.
Hey, what if Tahoe's are involved in some fiasco like Explorers and Firestone tires? Another value killer.
Do whatever you want to regarding the new vehicle. Just don't expect time to stand still.
Maybe they realized that they won't make as much, or any, money on the original deal. They may have to pay more to have the vehicle transferred. Or, your truck may be worth less than they originally thought. However, an honest and reputable dealer, with customer service and satisfaction in mind, would honor their quote and do the deal at the agreed upon price. Bring your written quote with you to other dealers. Maybe you'll find one. As for the value of your truck, barring extereme circumstances, your truck will not depreciate to any noticable extent between now and then.
dellwell-- I think the dealer thought he/she would take you out of the market by offering a high trade-in value.
you could test them "take my car right now, I don't need it, re-write the deal, all of it." you'll know right then and there whether they put you out on a hummer....
of course, having that piece of paper makes it easier or harder to shop, depending how you look at it, so you have that....
is there another dealer in town, have you been shopping around all the local dealers, guess what? most of them are on good terms with each other for dealer trades and swaps, but if there's one car....
car dealer's (of course there's none here) isn't there a piece of paper that needs to be signed "customer agrees to reappraise the car" or something like that....
dellwell, do you have a write-up on a piece of paper? Did you get a copy of it? did you go through the F&I dept?
the dealer will want to relook at your car in another month because what if you go on a cross country trip, wreck it, the air goes out etc. If you are in a position to go ahead and sell your car to the dealer at the inflated trade value so it can go out on the lot now your deal should stay the same.
The dealer's the one with the problem because he can't deliver on what he contracted to do...not you.
You have a couple of options. I'd suggest is that you sympathize with the dealer's (alleged) concern about your your trade-in devaluating and offer him a solution that's hard for him to wiggle an excuse out of. Here it is:
1. Offer that he accept your trade-in, *TODAY*.
2. But he has to provide you a free loaner car to span you over until your new vehicle arrives.
If he balks, you know why. Personally, I'd tell him you want your deposit back, plus 100% in damages because he is the one defaulting on the contract (I hope you put down a big deposit). IMO, a decent lawyer should be able to pretty easily show that the penalty for defaulting on the contract should be symmetrical...what you put up at risk in your deposit is also what the dealer should now have on the line.
I can see why the dealer wants the wiggle room to re-appraise the trade-in a couple months down the line, but come on. Does this not sound like a technique to rope in a buyer now for an unspecified future total-deal price? If I was the customer, I'd start running my used-car ad now.
p.s. Bill: "VERY much not unheard of" ? That can't not be wrong.
Thanks for everyone’s input on my little situation… The latest and greatest is as follows: After making a few phone calls to check and see what some of my options are, I phoned and talked to the Sales Manager to try and see what we could do to get this thing done without all these hassles. Sales Manager was very rude, hostile and unwilling to talk sensibly about the situation. "I am not going to discuss this issue to any great lengths…" I was willing to give up my trade in now and wait for my car to arrive but after the tantrum the Sales Manager threw, I said thank you and hung up the phone. I am going to call a few more dealerships in other cities and see what they will do. I really do not like the idea of leaving this as is but what can I do? Hopefully another dealership will up hold the deal to get my business or something close to the original deal. I also called the manufacturer’s customer service line to let them know about the situation and got a "sorry to hear that, it will be looked into…" They were friendly but what could they really do? My 1st experience buying a new car has been very interesting to say the least….
one of the steps is putting your hand on the car you want (remember the save time and money part?), appraising trade-in is done after..... emagine the movie, you have to see it through a few more times....
call me naive, but what if you don't actually "put your hand on the car you want"?
does the whole ten step process have to be started over? No sale, No deal is the same as the next, you approach each one as it is needed to be approached. If a customer walks into the showroom should I ask him if he put his hand on the car he wanted yet? How ridiculous would I sound?
OTOH, if you walk in a Ferrari dealership and slap your hand down on a 550 Maranello, you'll probably be told "that's your car!", or "please don't touch the cars" LOL
Woah, I've been reading through all the posts here. I thought I knew about both sides of the sales process, but I've learned a great deal from the discussion here. It seems like the disagreement about the many uses of deposits is cleared up, but I'm personally surprised at myself, because I can sympathize totally with Landru2's argument that a deposit can help the buyer by communicating commitment and immediacy to the sales manager. If you're a salesman, and providing the customer a quote is the prelude to his departure (in order to shop your price), then you have a delicate problem. Certainly dealers are trying--let's just say a variety of methods to solve this problem. When I was buying a new car in the SF bay area in California, I had occasion to talk to nine salespeople: 2 at Allison, 1 in San Jose, 3 (salesperson, finance lady, sales manager) in Fremont, 1 in San Mateo, 1 in Berkeley, and 1 broker in Palo Alto. This list included Dave Parker at Allison, Lenny Witana (who now also works at Allison), and Navi Jax at Berkeley. Not one of the salespeople had the bedside manner and attitude that I prefer and that Landru2 and Zues project, but the broker and the three I named were close. The rest were either hapless or just plain frightening. Oh. I also talked to two other salespeople over the phone: one, a pathological liar; the other, literally unintelligible. The three salesmen I named I spent the least time with; either the salesman or I made an offer, the offer was refused, and (in some cases after a short chat or in Lenny's case a quick tour of the lot) the conversation was over. But with these three it was pleasant, easy, and for the most part, weirdness-free. It's not my point that salespeople are bad; but this is getting a bit long so I'll continue in my next post.
So I visited some salespeople and bought a car. But I wanted to relate this to the deposit thing. At San Mateo I made a deposit, and from that moment the salesperson became evasive, noncooperative, clueless. (And he looked exactly like Bob Dole!--even before the deposit.) The car we had agreed on, disappeared: "we'll find you a car". To all appearances, they thought they had me hooked. Getting the deposit back was the usual, where they throw out hurdles and you have to jump over them ("I don't have the authority"/ "We do lots of work on these"/ "I'd have to check with the salesperson first"). It took 30 minutes. Three things I want to say about this: I had a friend along, as a witness/helper/recorder-of-facts; and two, I never accused them of wrongdoing, nor did I put them in the position such that to give the deposit back would be an admission in any way that they did something wrong. I just said that I strongly felt that we should agree on a specific car and price first, before a deposit is made. Lastly, the deposit was by credit card, and technically I didn't have to go back at all; I just wanted to be aboveboard, rather than contest the payment. Oh well, that was just one dealer; what will the next one be like? (next post)
Now I'll summarize what happened at Fremont. I have an appointment with their star salesman, who is wearing wool slacks, a tie, and a windbreaker jacket. First I wait while the salesman & his manager wear down an older gentleman, who is trying to buy a Z3. Then I have to go on a "test drive" (OK twist my arm). Salesman tells me I'm an idiot for not wanting a sunroof (translation: "I have no nonsunroofs on the lot"). Salesman lends me his fountain pen and insists I use his HP calculator (postfix arithmetic), to try to make me feel inadequate. I find out it's hard to break a fountain pen. I dictate a reasonable price on a special order, pay by cash. Deposit OK? Sure. Contract is written up and I'm TO'd to some lady. I look at the numbers in the contract, all OK except for a $45 doc fee. I look at the rest of the contract. Manual 5-speed has been changed to Automatic. Interior color has changed. "Deposit" has changed to down payment on a loan. I remind them of the deal. Sales manager comes in; this guy is really good, really nasty ("well if you can't make a decision..."). He fixes the stuff, TOs me back to woman. I say, oh, BTW, you can't raise the price $45, we already agreed on a price. "It's a fee we charge everybody". I don't care, it's all just money and we agreed on a price. She walks out again without a word, sales manager comes in. "You have to leave, you've made too many adjustments." I pick up all my things, and leave without a word. I don't see the salesman around as I walk out. A few weeks later, I get referred to a broker by a colleague. I give the broker a call, he calls back claiming he has located the car I want, and offers a price. I accept, and when the car arrives (from Oregon), his wife offers keys to let me drive it, I spend an hour driving & then inspecting the car, and then the broker is free, and I go in and sign the paperwork. No deposit was involved; the broker was willing to trust me, since I was referred to him. I later checked the paperwork that came with the car. The car had been sitting on a lot in Oregon; the broker bought the car through a dealer in LA. Three middlemen involved in this transaction! One fact of note is that the price I accepted was $1300 higher than the *very* *first* price I had been quoted, by Dave Parker at Allison. And yet I never once considered going back to him, partly because he had been a bit testy over the phone (I only spoke to him for 3 minutes), but mostly because by this time I didn't trust anyone in the car business anymore. Whatever opinions I may have had ("reasonable people who will nevertheless try to get as much money as possible"), were replaced by, let's just say, an extremely negative viewpoint. I really believed this Fremont sales manager had every intention of taking my downpayment and never selling me a car at all. These Fremont people behaved in every way like shameless, brazen criminals. So before hearing Landru2's argument, I didn't have a very positive outlook concerning deposits.
yea, if you "asked for you" you would have saved so much more time and money you wouldn't know what to do with your new found riches and extra time....
Boloney!!! the "my manager needs to see a little skin in the game from you before he quotes a price...." That works with uneducated people. You try that downtown and you'll be laughed out onto the street.
fperiera's posts point at what many buyers feel: It's not just the money. It's having to deal with a bunch of sleazy bastiges when buying a car.
My personal experiences have led me to believe that for every honest,low-key, intelligent, well-mannered salesperson, there are at least two low-life, slicked back hair, gaudy dressing, fast talking, full of crap sleazebags.
Even in dealerships where the initial salesperson is all of the good things, chances are you'll be TO'd to a sales manager with all the latter qualities.
The automakers go to great lengths to make and market these cars using normal business standards used by most other Western businesses. The automotive press covers these cars in a way befitting this Western style of doing business. Yet, when it comes to purchasing these vehicles, quite often it's like buying a rug at a Moroccan Bazaar.
Why can't the purchase process be commensurate with the rest of the automotive industry?
sounds like a complete endorsement of the steps of the sale.
sadly, 'most' people will never know about the steps of the sale because the 15 people that monitor smart shopper a fairly split down the middle, car guys and gals on one side and surfers on the other.
How many unique visitors does Edmunds have to smart shopper?
Just pay the MSRP that the "normal business standards" practicing automakers put on the vehicle and you'll almost never have to worry about the Moroccan Bazaar again.
Sunroofs break, rattle, leak after a few years, and reduce headroom, which was scant in this particular car. I admit it sure was hard in my case to get a car w/o a sunroof, but (assuming a reputable dealer who cares about customer satisfaction) all it really requires is a special order. If dealers do have a beef with nonsunroof cars, I guess it's possible to give some feedback to the manufacturer. Acura makes them standard on some of its models; Lexus restricts the configurations you can get by region. But I don't really think it's a problem.
Comments
Maybe the dealer is being honest. If they aren't, how would you ever prove it?
There is no reason to get upset about this. One time a dealer and I agreed on an exact price, but when I went to pay for the car they would not honor the deal. Rather then arguing about it, I just left and bought a car somewhere else.
Instead of fighting with the dealer, spend your time doing something worthwhile - like practicing your short game.
Bob
I've done that when a customer would order a vehicle - knowing 8-10 weeks would go by, I would agree to a number on the trade that I knew would be good in two months. I also signed an agreement with the customer that if they wreck the car, flood it, etc, I could back out; and if the ordered unit isn't what they want, they can back out.
Your deal is different - they agreed on a number for your trade with a 1-2 week delivery period. It's not your fault that 1-2 weeks turned into 6-8 weeks. I say either they stick to the original deal or you find another dealer. They can't expect you to take less for your trade simply because they can't produce a car when they said they could.
Usually if I do a factory order for someone I can guarantee the trade-in value for a window of about 2 months, providing it shows up in the expected condition with the expected miles. Usually. There are exceptions, however. For instance if the trade is a Mustang convertible, the trade value will be much different in August than it is in October. Sometimes what happens is that the person with the Mustang will get some trade-in numbers in August and expect them to be the same for trading in October.
I'm concerned that the dealer is saying that market conditions "may" change. It doesn't sound like they have told you what they think the trade will be worth in November. Unless your trade is somewhat unusual (like the Mustang above) they should be able to reasonably predict its value 6 weeks from now.
Obviously they thought they could scrounge one from another dealership, but failed. I'd let them know that there is no deal until they find a vehicle, and then be looking around elsewhere at the same time. If they find one, or order one, you should have approval rights on it before it's committed.
As far as your trade goes, I think the dealership will have the final say. You said the value of your Tahoe should not lose value once winter hits. Maybe, maybe not. That is speculation on your part.
What could happen to your Tahoe between now and the new vehicle's arrival? Well, let's see........ it could be wrecked, stolen, driven cross-country adding thousands of miles, keyed, damaged by a hailstorm, broken into, or many other things. Expecting the dealer to offer the same valuation after damage has occured in unreasonable, IMO.
Hey, what if Tahoe's are involved in some fiasco like Explorers and Firestone tires? Another value killer.
Do whatever you want to regarding the new vehicle. Just don't expect time to stand still.
However, an honest and reputable dealer, with customer service and satisfaction in mind, would honor their quote and do the deal at the agreed upon price.
Bring your written quote with you to other dealers. Maybe you'll find one.
As for the value of your truck, barring extereme circumstances, your truck will not depreciate to any noticable extent between now and then.
you could test them "take my car right now, I don't need it, re-write the deal, all of it." you'll know right then and there whether they put you out on a hummer....
of course, having that piece of paper makes it easier or harder to shop, depending how you look at it, so you have that....
is there another dealer in town, have you been shopping around all the local dealers, guess what? most of them are on good terms with each other for dealer trades and swaps, but if there's one car....
car dealer's (of course there's none here) isn't there a piece of paper that needs to be signed "customer agrees to reappraise the car" or something like that....
dellwell, do you have a write-up on a piece of paper? Did you get a copy of it? did you go through the F&I dept?
I think this may have been a skinny deal in the first place and the dealer *may* have set the value on your trade in too high.
They may now be hoping you'll simply cancel the deal.
But...who knows?
And the market on used cars can change. Audi Unintended Acceleration, Ford Explorers, etc...
Bill
You have a couple of options. I'd suggest is that you sympathize with the dealer's (alleged) concern about your your trade-in devaluating and offer him a solution that's hard for him to wiggle an excuse out of. Here it is:
1. Offer that he accept your trade-in, *TODAY*.
2. But he has to provide you a free loaner car to span you over until your new vehicle arrives.
If he balks, you know why. Personally, I'd tell him you want your deposit back, plus 100% in damages because he is the one defaulting on the contract (I hope you put down a big deposit). IMO, a decent lawyer should be able to pretty easily show that the penalty for defaulting on the contract should be symmetrical...what you put up at risk in your deposit is also what the dealer should now have on the line.
-hh
If I was the customer, I'd start running my used-car ad now.
p.s. Bill: "VERY much not unheard of" ?
That can't not be wrong.
yes, landru2, the movie.
does the whole ten step process have to be started over?
No sale, No deal is the same as the next, you approach each one as it is needed to be approached. If a customer walks into the showroom should I ask him if he put his hand on the car he wanted yet? How ridiculous would I sound?
OTOH, if you walk in a Ferrari dealership and slap your hand down on a 550 Maranello, you'll probably be told "that's your car!", or "please don't touch the cars" LOL
I think then you have to do the hokey-pokey and shake it all about.
Sure! People want a circus atmosphere when they're making the second biggest purchase of their life?!
Man, I've been doing it ALL wrong! LOL
It seems like the disagreement about the many uses of deposits is cleared up, but I'm personally surprised at myself, because I can sympathize totally with Landru2's argument that a deposit can help the buyer by communicating commitment and immediacy to the sales manager. If you're a salesman, and providing the customer a quote is the prelude to his departure (in order to shop your price), then you have a delicate problem. Certainly dealers are trying--let's just say a variety of methods to solve this problem.
When I was buying a new car in the SF bay area in California, I had occasion to talk to nine salespeople: 2 at Allison, 1 in San Jose, 3 (salesperson, finance lady, sales manager) in Fremont, 1 in San Mateo, 1 in Berkeley, and 1 broker in Palo Alto. This list included Dave Parker at Allison, Lenny Witana (who now also works at Allison), and Navi Jax at Berkeley. Not one of the salespeople had the bedside manner and attitude that I prefer and that Landru2 and Zues project, but the broker and the three I named were close. The rest were either hapless or just plain frightening. Oh. I also talked to two other salespeople over the phone: one, a pathological liar; the other, literally unintelligible.
The three salesmen I named I spent the least time with; either the salesman or I made an offer, the offer was refused, and (in some cases after a short chat or in Lenny's case a quick tour of the lot) the conversation was over. But with these three it was pleasant, easy, and for the most part, weirdness-free.
It's not my point that salespeople are bad; but this is getting a bit long so I'll continue in my next post.
Getting the deposit back was the usual, where they throw out hurdles and you have to jump over them ("I don't have the authority"/ "We do lots of work on these"/ "I'd have to check with the salesperson first"). It took 30 minutes. Three things I want to say about this: I had a friend along, as a witness/helper/recorder-of-facts; and two, I never accused them of wrongdoing, nor did I put them in the position such that to give the deposit back would be an admission in any way that they did something wrong. I just said that I strongly felt that we should agree on a specific car and price first, before a deposit is made. Lastly, the deposit was by credit card, and technically I didn't have to go back at all; I just wanted to be aboveboard, rather than contest the payment.
Oh well, that was just one dealer; what will the next one be like? (next post)
I dictate a reasonable price on a special order, pay by cash. Deposit OK? Sure. Contract is written up and I'm TO'd to some lady.
I look at the numbers in the contract, all OK except for a $45 doc fee. I look at the rest of the contract. Manual 5-speed has been changed to Automatic. Interior color has changed. "Deposit" has changed to down payment on a loan. I remind them of the deal. Sales manager comes in; this guy is really good, really nasty ("well if you can't make a decision..."). He fixes the stuff, TOs me back to woman. I say, oh, BTW, you can't raise the price $45, we already agreed on a price. "It's a fee we charge everybody". I don't care, it's all just money and we agreed on a price. She walks out again without a word, sales manager comes in. "You have to leave, you've made too many adjustments." I pick up all my things, and leave without a word. I don't see the salesman around as I walk out.
A few weeks later, I get referred to a broker by a colleague. I give the broker a call, he calls back claiming he has located the car I want, and offers a price. I accept, and when the car arrives (from Oregon), his wife offers keys to let me drive it, I spend an hour driving & then inspecting the car, and then the broker is free, and I go in and sign the paperwork. No deposit was involved; the broker was willing to trust me, since I was referred to him.
I later checked the paperwork that came with the car. The car had been sitting on a lot in Oregon; the broker bought the car through a dealer in LA. Three middlemen involved in this transaction!
One fact of note is that the price I accepted was $1300 higher than the *very* *first* price I had been quoted, by Dave Parker at Allison. And yet I never once considered going back to him, partly because he had been a bit testy over the phone (I only spoke to him for 3 minutes), but mostly because by this time I didn't trust anyone in the car business anymore. Whatever opinions I may have had ("reasonable people who will nevertheless try to get as much money as possible"), were replaced by, let's just say, an extremely negative viewpoint. I really believed this Fremont sales manager had every intention of taking my downpayment and never selling me a car at all. These Fremont people behaved in every way like shameless, brazen criminals.
So before hearing Landru2's argument, I didn't have a very positive outlook concerning deposits.
Seriously - if you only had followed the 10 steps of the salesprocess....
Boloney!!! the "my manager needs to see a little skin in the game from you before he quotes a price...." That works with uneducated people. You try that downtown and you'll be laughed out onto the street.
It's not just the money. It's having to deal with a bunch of sleazy bastiges when buying a car.
My personal experiences have led me to believe that for every honest,low-key, intelligent, well-mannered salesperson, there are at least two low-life, slicked back hair, gaudy dressing, fast talking, full of crap sleazebags.
Even in dealerships where the initial salesperson is all of the good things, chances are you'll be TO'd to a sales manager with all the latter qualities.
The automakers go to great lengths to make and market these cars using normal business standards used by most other Western businesses. The automotive press covers these cars in a way befitting this Western style of doing business. Yet, when it comes to purchasing these vehicles, quite often it's like buying a rug at a Moroccan Bazaar.
Why can't the purchase process be commensurate with the rest of the automotive industry?
sadly, 'most' people will never know about the steps of the sale because the 15 people that monitor smart shopper a fairly split down the middle, car guys and gals on one side and surfers on the other.
How many unique visitors does Edmunds have to smart shopper?
CWJ
Where do you shop?
CWJ
(I missed the last one - I'd already left work.)
Umm, A) Most all shoppers want them.
98 GS300? No Roof? $2,000 deduct in the real-world.
Bill
Sure you wanna order one that way?
I admit it sure was hard in my case to get a car w/o a sunroof, but (assuming a reputable dealer who cares about customer satisfaction) all it really requires is a special order.
If dealers do have a beef with nonsunroof cars, I guess it's possible to give some feedback to the manufacturer. Acura makes them standard on some of its models; Lexus restricts the configurations you can get by region. But I don't really think it's a problem.