if the contract isn't agreeable by both parties, you don't have a contract.
A few more questions: So what you are saying is that this "agreement" is determined by actual execution (not just signing it), i.e. taking posession of the car and cashing the check? In other words, if a consumer takes posession, he is stuck no matter what. Similarly, a dealer is stuck if he cashes the check. Correct?
Exactly - signing the contract doesn't make it happen, legally - you have to take posession of the car, and the dealer has to cash your check or contract - until then, it's actually up in the air, but again, there's no "return" policy as urban legend describes.
This is interesting. So according to you guys the contract is not binding until it is fully paid for. The dealer can void the contract at any time before that.
Every time I have purchased a car with outside financing or for cash, the dealer has insisted on “on the spot delivery” where I had to bring them a check within 5 or 7 business days. Does this mean that I have a right to return the car anytime before I deliver the check, or is this rule (law?) one-sided and only works in dealers favor?
actually, it DOES work in the dealers' favor. the business relationship is that the buyer initiates the deal, and acceptance of terms is up to the seller.
having said that, if the dealer doesnt have a check or a cashable contract and you take the car back, then there isnt much they can do.
but if that happens, then the sales manager that allowed a spot delivery without money wont be a sales manager very long.
There's no frightening and threatening involved at all - you explained that you would take delivery of a car, us it for the weekend, then try to return it - I'll assume (correctly) that it was your intention all along to do just that.
Because you want to steal from my business, mile up a vehicle, and in doing so, take it from the status of an untitled new car to a titled used car, whacking 10-30% of the value off the car, I'm going to slam you.
For one, because you lied, cheated and stole - secondly, I'll make an example of you so others don't think they can pull the "weekend rental" trick at a cost of thousands of dollars to a dealership.
When you start thinking about the repurcussions that your actions have on others, you'll (a) grow up, and (b) quit trying to cheat people.
I hope the best for you, and hope we never do business - you'd try to cheat me, and I'd have you prosecuted, and neither one of us would benefit.
I can tell just by the attitude that he'd have picket signs, newspaper ads, t-shirts printed up, all slamming the dealer, and would've called the local, county, and state police, the BBB, the CIA, the FBI and the national guard.
"You" need to stay sharp, cuz' it's getting closer ...... you don't have title and you won't have any registration and again, no cashed contract .. you got nada, zip, less than -0- ............... ** beeeep beeeep beeeep **
Assume that I offered to buy a car for $20000 plus 5% tax, for a total of $21000. The dealer accepts this offer.
Then the dealer presents me with a contract that shows the price of the car to be $18000 plus 5% tax, for a total of $18900. I willingly sign the contract, give them a check, and drive the car home, very happy that I spent $2100 less than I planned to.
Sounds good to me.
I had offered to pay $21000, but if they want to sell me the car for less, I have no complaint.
Driftracer has one of his signed 'worksheets' showing $20,000 total price for the car.
After the F/I guy get through with the buyer with a few more addons, doc fees, ADM fee, etc it's a $23,000 car on the final contract.
The buyer takes the car, but can he then come back and say he wants the price reduced because you-all don't really have one of those contracts agreed to by both people, etc?????
I'll bet you salemen all respond 'Oh, Heavens NO'!
I think what is happening here, and this has only been 'hinted at' in a couple of the salemen postings, is that the usual car sales contract has clauses that make the sale of the car strongly biased toward the dealer's contracting position. And an ordinary buyer doesn't realize this and very, very few read the contract, or even could realize this if the contract was read.
Somewhat this same discussion transpired a while ago, if not on this Topic, then another simular one. But it was along the line of 'What should a buyer do if the dealer came up with an error in a contract and asked for MORE money at the end?'
Lots of people here said the buyer should just 'let it go' for $50, $100, $200, $500(if he really liked the car) etc.
bobst was roundly ridiculed and abused when he said he would not accept even $1 more.
It seems apparent from the previous postings that dealers are not going to 'just let it go' when the amount in error aganist them is $2,000. The car will be towed, credit reports againist the buyer, etc.
Ok, just what is the 'just let it go' amount? The amount where it's not worth the trouble, the ill will, the buyer bad mouthing the dealership, etc?
>> chikoo gets home, sits down and reads his purchase agreement. Finds a 2000.00 math error in the dealer's favor. <<<
see that is EXACTLY your probelm. you do not read properly. maybe the same thing happened when one of your fellowmates signed that contract.
READ MY POST PROPERLY before you COMMENT.
I have indicated that if it were a math error, it needs to be corrected.
but if the contract had the base price wrong and u missed it. Bad luck. or maybe you need better focus and better reading capabilities, combined with understanding what you read.
>>> I can tell just by the attitude that he'd have picket signs, newspaper ads, t-shirts printed up, all slamming the dealer, and would've called the local, county, and state police, the BBB, the CIA, the FBI and the national guard. And Geraldo Rivera and Al Sharpton! <<<
Really??? I think this applies to you more than to me. no wonder you guys have a bad rep.
>>> Ok, just what is the 'just let it go' amount? The amount where it's not worth the trouble, the ill will, the buyer bad mouthing the dealership, etc?
$1,500? $1,000? $500? $200? $50?
Just wanting to know... <<<<
Let go??? Do you realize whom you are talking to? Better check if you have your pants still on before you head home from those dealerships.
NO way. Several years ago, when I discovered that I was being bumped $500 on an offer, I called the salesman's hand. He laid it off on the sales manager, saying he wouldn't allow the car to be sold for the price we had verbally agreed to the day before. I said I would walk away from the deal rather than pay an extra $500. At that point the salesman said, "I'd starve to death if I sold cars that cheap!" I walked out of the dealership and drove the 40 miles home. The deal went cold and never took place.
Yes that is different, but it's yet another example of how the dealers DO hold all the cards. I know some people say the customer holds all the cards because the customer has the money and the dealer wants it. But the 'real world' truth is that when a customer has spent upwards of 8-10 hours over several days testdriving and negotiating with a dealership 40 miles away, then is given a choice of coughing up and extra $500 or walking away, it is a no-win situation.
Personally, I think I would have forked over the extra $500. I would have been bitter, but in the end, my time is worth more than my pride.
I think this belongs on the 'inconsiderate dealerships' thread.
we are not talking about a dealer bumping for extra money. we are talking about a typo, math error, or some such screw up. if i were buying and an error was made in the dealer's favor, you can bet your @$$ i would take issue and get it corrected.
i try to make more money all the time, but trying to bump before an agreement is nothing like asking for money to correct an error AFTER the agreement.
Why don't you just go and get a loan for the car for what was on the contract and give them the cashier's check.That way they will get the rebate and you still have the car.
"then is given a choice of coughing up and extra $500 or walking away, it is a no-win situation." I would never give a dealer ONE CENT more than was originally agreed upon. To do so just rewards these crooks.
As far as the typo is concerned, I need to be enlightened. There has been talk of "verbal contract." Not being a lawyer, I would have to ask-"Since when does a verbal contract override a written one?" Could you imagine all the court cases that would be generated by people saying "well we verbally agreed upon this---but the contract says this!" It seems like the courts would be all tied up. Think of all the contracts you sign; house refis, contractors, insurance. But with this car dealer there is an exception-just because of the F&I guys incompetence? Yea, right!
that there's more to the contract, in this case, just like it would be on a house, RV, washer and dryer, whatever - the verbal agreement and signing the paperwork are only part of the buying process.
If there's a mistake on either side on the contract, then the contract isn't the "real" contract at all, and you can't "cash" it. Forget all this verbal/written stuff - you have to have a contract that is agreeable by both sides in order to cash it - if the seller or buyer checks it out after the fact and says "wait a minute", the contract is pretty much worthless.
The exception, or advantage, however, to the seller of any materials goods or services, is that if you go to their business and DO business, as a buyer, you can't just "cancel" the contract - in most cases, the seller can't, either.
In this case, the dealer caught a mistake, the guy tried to be a squirrel about it, and the dealer, I'm sure, has no intention of sending the contract through for funding in its current state - the deal doesn't get processed, the car's registration never gets sent in, so the buyer doesn't OWN the car at all - hence the reposession possibility.
"Not being a lawyer, I would have to ask"
I'm not a lawyer, either, but I work for 26 attorneys with over 28,000 automotive contracts cases under their belts, and I asked two of them about this scenario.
The seller didn't get the contract that was agreed to with the buyer, has every right to kill the deal, and still owns the vehicle. End of story.
The buyer essentially wants to steal $2,000 from the dealer and take advanatage of a mistake.
I'd be calling my tow truck buddy as soon as the guy hesitated for 2 seconds about coming back in.
It was a cash deal based on a handshake and informal circumstances. I was very surprised that the dealership didn't claim a "mistake" had been made, but they didn't. This was a bump that seemed to have been agreed to between the salesman and the manager. It takes all kinds, and that pair were not top drawer. I had succeeded two years before, helping my elderly father buy a car there. The difference was that the sales manager had left to open his own used car place, and a new sales manager had been hired for this dealership.
where the SM tries to get the salesman to bump the customer - I'd walk, too. You can do all the bumping you want, on both sides of the desk, before numbers are agreed on - after that, it's off limits, and a deal killer as far as I'm concerned.
Well Driftracer, If you have those resources to check with, I will go with what you say. However, I guess where the seller really has the upper hand is that they (dealer) will hold up the "processing" on the car, and then they can repo it or call it stolen-whatever they want. I have a feeling that if the contract was sent to a third party for processing-things would be a little different.
the seller, after you as the buyer have gone to their place of business to do business, has that upper hand, and rightfully so - as a business owner, wouldn't you want to make sure that if one of your folks make a typo at 10 pm on a Saturday, after working 14 hours, that your business wouldn't have to eat a substantial loss?
Some here would say "tough luck", but they may be the same ones who, after watching an old lady drop a $20 bill, would pick it up silently and not call out to the elderly woman...
"and folks, here's your sales tax, your license fee, here's your interest rate, and here's the $899 charge for the CPA evaluation of the contract and the $499 charge for the DMV verification of your registration information.."
I don't know too many people who wouldn't have a problem with noise like that!
"but then, doc fees would be legitimate, wouldnt they? ;-)"
In California it's my understanding the "doc fees" are regulated. I think they are something like $45.00. However, in other states I know they are a real "profit center."
you were talking about having a third party evaluator check out the contracts - that's going to cost someone, and it'll either be the consumer up front, or the consumer after the fact if the dealer pays the fee and it gets passed on.
"and folks, here's your sales tax, your license fee, here's your interest rate, and here's the $899 charge for the CPA evaluation of the contract and the $499 charge for the DMV verification of your registration information.."
The point is that the F&I guys does this all day long. If one mistake is-"one too many" the F&I guy should review it-or pass it on to somebody else to review the contract.
This happen to me this past Thursday. I had a signed order and lease package I overnighted to my corporate offices. I checked it three times before inserting it in the overnight envelope. I got a call at 11a.m. the next morning saying the signed order was not in the package. I asked them to recheck. One and a half hours later I got a call back stating that the other page was "misplaced" at corporate and they found it. Since I rechecked on my end, I was sure it was sent!
stuff long enough, chuck - I was an F&I diretor with two dealer groups, and yes, I made a couple of mistakes - some were costly - it happens, and if you're saying that no one can ever make a mistake, anywhere, anytime, I challenge you to find that person!
Mistakes happen in business, in our everday lives, etc - it's all a matter of how we deal with them and correct them that makes one person different, or better that the other (business-wise, that is).
You know Driftracer, you can call my remarks negative if you wish, but I gave you credibility a few posts back on your information over the mistake on the contract. I CALL IT LIKE I SEE IT!
Take the post a few pages back about the single MOM with two kids looking to buy a new Focus. The dealer is trying to sell her $800.00 worth of exterior and interior fabric protection. THAT GUY IS A CROOK WHO IS TRYING TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF A SINGLE MOM. Fortunately, she checked with us on this board for advice. It was really something how all of you "in the business" were pretty silent on that one! IF some of my comments hit too close to home for you, or any others on this board, I apologize in advance! But there are crooks in your business preying on people everyday... plain and simple!!!!
you make it sound like he is trying to sell the protection package BECAUSE she is a single mom. get real, man, and wake up. he tries to sell it to EVERYONE, whether they are a single mom or a same-sex elderly couple.
Wake up? Nope, I disagree here. There has been a few "undercover" programs done by some T. V.news magazines where they have a "single woman" go in to car dealers. Those guys circle like sharks around a bloody swimmer! Elderly couples and single woman get taken advantage of WAY MORE THAN MEN! I can't site them offhand, but there are statistics to back this up.
If we are talking about the same show; They sent the girl in alone...they racked her over the coals. Then they sent her in with that guy who I believe wrote the book called "Don't get taken Every time." Man, he really had those guys on the run. I even learned something during that show, and I thought I knew just about everything in the car buying process. What was it? NEVER SIGN AN ARBITRATION AGREEMENT IN THE F&I ROOM. If something goes south....you can then exercise your rights in a court of law!
story had the same level of credibility as the story 60 Minutes did on the Chevrolet trucks catching fire - turns out they rigged them with explosives to make sure there was a big bang and a fire...
Taking advantage? If an F&I manager is directed by the GM that part of his/her job description is to throw a salespitch for undercoating and an extended warranty to every customer they see, in order to keep their job, they do what the boss says - everyone gets the pitch.
You can say "no", whether you're an overly agressive 30 year old male, or a naive 18 year old female - if you say "yes" and regret it later, you're STUPID. You can say "no", or my favorite, "no, thank you sir/ma'am". You can get up and walk out. You can drive away in your trade in and nix the deal - anything but blindly signing what you don't understand or don't want, then adopting a victim mentality about how they "took advantage" of you...PLEASE!
Do the research, don't walk into things like a blind sheep, and you'll be a better consumer doing better business - of course, then you won't have anything to come on Edmunds and gripe about...
Driftracer, I will agree with just about everything you said. However, those people who don't do enough research are usually taken advantage of. If you go back to the "Single Woman-Focus" post she said they told her these services (interior & exterior protection) are sanctioned by Ford. What a line - you and I both know it. These things are sanctioned for the benefit of the dealers bottom line! Now, there is nothing necessarily wrong with that, except for the balant misrepresentation about "Ford" authorizing the "protection". This Driftracer is what is wrong in your industry.
"... people who don't do enough research are usually taken advantage of." That's true in the car industry absolutely. It's also true when buying a house,getting a mortgage, getting gasoline, buying groceries,buying a large appliance,buying a small appliance,etc......
"It's also true when buying a house,getting a mortgage, getting gasoline, buying groceries,buying a large appliance,buying a small appliance,"
Well, no it's not. Buying a house...you have a Realtor who is supposedly an advocate for you. Getting a mortgage...you have a federal regulation called "Regulation Z' otherwise known as "Truth in Lending". I.E. Full disclosure on fees. Buying groceries, buying a large appliance, buying a small appliance-the prices are posted most of the time. I remember when the car dealers fought long and hard not to have that window sticker. The car business is one of the few that can lie to your face. "The protection package is sanctioned by Ford". THAT IS AN OUTRIGHT LIE!!!!!!!!!
"said they told her these services (interior & exterior protection) are sanctioned by Ford"
"THAT IS AN OUTRIGHT LIE!!!!!!!!! "
Pretty strong language, considering you simply don't have the slightest notion of what you're talking about.
Yes, Ford, and every other manufacturer, certainly allows its dealers to sell products other than their vehicles which allows the dealer additional profits - trust me, if the manufacturer didn't want ABC Chevrolet selling mop & glo, they wouldn't be - the manufacturer could easily restrict this type of thing in the dealer/manufacturer franchise agreement. Every manufacturer that sells vehicles in the nation knows that dealers offer products like GAP insurance, extended warranties (profit for the manufacturer as well as the dealer), undercoating, paint sealant, bedliners, stereos, etc. The manufacturer authorizes all of these things, sanctions, if you will, and allows each independent dealer to do what they want as long as they move iron and have a decent CSI rating.
"you have a Realtor who is supposedly an advocate for you"
Now THAT's a crock - the realtor makes (usually) 3-7% of the selling price in commission, only that rate of comission can't really be justified, it's just an "accepted norm". I've been charged $100 for a credit check, when my dealership (at the time) was getting charged $3.25 per bureau inquiry...oh, yeah, those guys were REALLY my advocates...
.......... Ya know, I was going to stay out of this one because guys like you usually just come in, drop your 3 or 4 posts "vent" all over the place and then go home and take it out on their wife and their dog .......
Lets see if I have this one right .. "you're" mad because "you" feel dealers take advantage ..? .. hmm, let me ponder this one ..
So, what your saying is: it's ok that Furniture stores charge $2,200 for couches and bedroom sets that cost them $500/$700, and on the way out the door, they "all" want to charge $89/$149 for the "fabric protector" - but thats ok ..... Jewelry stores sell watches for $1,500 that cost them $500/$600 and if it breaks you have to send it off to Switzerland to get it fixed, wait 3 months and hope it comes back - but thats ok .... it's ok that the Wal-Mart beachside, charges $9.99 for Marine plywood when the store inland charges $6.99 .... it's ok that 120/130 Real estate agents can sell homes with known flood plains and FEMA has to take them to court in 5 states (so much for Realtors) .... I guess it's okay for builders to charge $125 for tile squares that cost them $14 or $5.99 for the ones that cost them .89cts, then, lets not forget the labor .l.o.l. (so much for builders) .... I guess you think it's okay that the honeymooners from Boston on their 7 day cruise pay $3,800 and the folks from Minnesota pay $4,500, when everyone else pays $1,500 if, they do their homework (so much for Travel agents) .... I guess it's okay for the guy to pay $8,000 in closing costs, when the guy down the street pays $2,500 on their $250,000 homes, if he does his homework (so much for lenders) - but thats okay .... all this happens every second of every day, but thats okay ..?
I guess the point is, you have a chip on your shoulder and you can have it surgically removed .. the VAST majority of dealers work Huge hours, spend Big money on advertising, property, lights, electric, repair, employee costs, inventory, you name it - it's HUGE .. but it's Not Okay for them to make any profit on a $15,000/$25,000 investment ......
Do I agree with some of the employee's taking advantage of certain items on the TV broadcasts *-absolutely not-* ~ but they "were" exactly that, "employee's" of that company, certainly not the owners manipulation or encouragement .... it certainly isn't worse than having a Maintenance agreement shoved in my face everytime I buy a clock radio or a TV from Best Buys for eighty bucks, I can say: No thank you.! .. -or- when Hurricane Andrew smashed the Florida coast and we had every Roof, Plumber, Cement company etc, from up north and dropping $5,000 of cheap shoddy work for $15,000 and killing the ol' folks for twice that ~ where were the News investigators then .?!? I guess having tea and crumpets because they didn't want to get too muddy ..l.o.l....
No business is perfect, and if you could sit in a showroom for a few days you would be shocked at the stories I hear from "your" neighbors and friends when I look at their trades -and- their credit reports .. "that's really Visa's mistake for $3,000, not mine (really.?) .. the last dealer screwed me because he forgot to tell me I had a pay-off on my car (oh, I understand) .. actually my wife charged-off that Burdines card for $4,200, not me (no kidding.?) .. it shows I have been late with my mortgage payments, but I never have (wow, poor guy.!) .. the dealer down the street said they would give me $17,000 for my trade (hmm interesting, they just called me and said $12,000) .. it's never been in an accident (then how come we have overspray in the door jams and your Vin#'s are missing in the fenders.?) -- this all coming from $20,000 a month Lawyers, Doctors and Evangelists ..... you would be Amazed Chuck, I mean "stunned" - but it happens everyday in every showroom from Portland Maine to San Diego ..... reality.? you betcha.!
Comments
if the contract isn't agreeable by both parties, you don't have a contract.
A few more questions:
So what you are saying is that this "agreement" is determined by actual execution (not just signing it), i.e. taking posession of the car and cashing the check? In other words, if a consumer takes posession, he is stuck no matter what. Similarly, a dealer is stuck if he cashes the check. Correct?
Every time I have purchased a car with outside financing or for cash, the dealer has insisted on “on the spot delivery” where I had to bring them a check within 5 or 7 business days. Does this mean that I have a right to return the car anytime before I deliver the check, or is this rule (law?) one-sided and only works in dealers favor?
is this why car salespeople have a bad rep?
always frightening and threatening the customer?
eh?
having said that, if the dealer doesnt have a check or a cashable contract and you take the car back, then there isnt much they can do.
but if that happens, then the sales manager that allowed a spot delivery without money wont be a sales manager very long.
Because you want to steal from my business, mile up a vehicle, and in doing so, take it from the status of an untitled new car to a titled used car, whacking 10-30% of the value off the car, I'm going to slam you.
For one, because you lied, cheated and stole - secondly, I'll make an example of you so others don't think they can pull the "weekend rental" trick at a cost of thousands of dollars to a dealership.
When you start thinking about the repurcussions that your actions have on others, you'll (a) grow up, and (b) quit trying to cheat people.
I hope the best for you, and hope we never do business - you'd try to cheat me, and I'd have you prosecuted, and neither one of us would benefit.
Mark
In fact I have lived with it in the past.
I am not a cry baby like some of you out here.
I own up if it is my mistake and I live with it.
Good luck trying to spot me when I come into your dealership.
Don't tell me you were not warned.
/*that should get all of you car sales related people staying sharp on the job */
" Oh...my mistake, I will live with it, I'm not a crybaby"
Right!
And Geraldo Rivera and Al Sharpton!
"You" need to stay sharp, cuz' it's getting closer ...... you don't have title and you won't have any registration and again, no cashed contract .. you got nada, zip, less than -0- ............... ** beeeep beeeep beeeep **
Terry ;^}
Then the dealer presents me with a contract that shows the price of the car to be $18000 plus 5% tax, for a total of $18900. I willingly sign the contract, give them a check, and drive the car home, very happy that I spent $2100 less than I planned to.
Sounds good to me.
I had offered to pay $21000, but if they want to sell me the car for less, I have no complaint.
After the F/I guy get through with the buyer with a few more addons, doc fees, ADM fee, etc it's a $23,000 car on the final contract.
The buyer takes the car, but can he then come back and say he wants the price reduced because you-all don't really have one of those contracts agreed to by both people, etc?????
I'll bet you salemen all respond 'Oh, Heavens NO'!
I think what is happening here, and this has only been 'hinted at' in a couple of the salemen postings, is that the usual car sales contract has clauses that make the sale of the car strongly biased toward the dealer's contracting position. And an ordinary buyer doesn't realize this and very, very few read the contract, or even could realize this if the contract was read.
In other words, let the buyer beware.
Lots of people here said the buyer should just 'let it go' for $50, $100, $200, $500(if he really liked the car) etc.
bobst was roundly ridiculed and abused when he said he would not accept even $1 more.
It seems apparent from the previous postings that dealers are not going to 'just let it go' when the amount in error aganist them is $2,000. The car will be towed, credit reports againist the buyer, etc.
Ok, just what is the 'just let it go' amount? The amount where it's not worth the trouble, the ill will, the buyer bad mouthing the dealership, etc?
$1,500? $1,000? $500? $200? $50?
Just wanting to know...
see that is EXACTLY your probelm.
you do not read properly. maybe the same thing happened when one of your fellowmates signed that contract.
READ MY POST PROPERLY before you COMMENT.
I have indicated that if it were a math error, it needs to be corrected.
but if the contract had the base price wrong and u missed it. Bad luck. or maybe you need better focus and better reading capabilities, combined with understanding what you read.
And Geraldo Rivera and Al Sharpton! <<<
Really??? I think this applies to you more than to me.
no wonder you guys have a bad rep.
$1,500? $1,000? $500? $200? $50?
Just wanting to know... <<<<
Let go???
Do you realize whom you are talking to?
Better check if you have your pants still on before you head home from those dealerships.
I'm sure those places exist.
A lot different than a simple mistake.
Personally, I think I would have forked over the extra $500. I would have been bitter, but in the end, my time is worth more than my pride.
I think this belongs on the 'inconsiderate dealerships' thread.
i try to make more money all the time, but trying to bump before an agreement is nothing like asking for money to correct an error AFTER the agreement.
I would never give a dealer ONE CENT more than was originally agreed upon. To do so just rewards these crooks.
As far as the typo is concerned, I need to be enlightened. There has been talk of "verbal contract." Not being a lawyer, I would have to ask-"Since when does a verbal contract override a written one?" Could you imagine all the court cases that would be generated by people saying "well we verbally agreed upon this---but the contract says this!" It seems like the courts would be all tied up. Think of all the contracts you sign; house refis, contractors, insurance. But with this car dealer there is an exception-just because of the F&I guys incompetence? Yea, right!
If there's a mistake on either side on the contract, then the contract isn't the "real" contract at all, and you can't "cash" it. Forget all this verbal/written stuff - you have to have a contract that is agreeable by both sides in order to cash it - if the seller or buyer checks it out after the fact and says "wait a minute", the contract is pretty much worthless.
The exception, or advantage, however, to the seller of any materials goods or services, is that if you go to their business and DO business, as a buyer, you can't just "cancel" the contract - in most cases, the seller can't, either.
In this case, the dealer caught a mistake, the guy tried to be a squirrel about it, and the dealer, I'm sure, has no intention of sending the contract through for funding in its current state - the deal doesn't get processed, the car's registration never gets sent in, so the buyer doesn't OWN the car at all - hence the reposession possibility.
"Not being a lawyer, I would have to ask"
I'm not a lawyer, either, but I work for 26 attorneys with over 28,000 automotive contracts cases under their belts, and I asked two of them about this scenario.
The seller didn't get the contract that was agreed to with the buyer, has every right to kill the deal, and still owns the vehicle. End of story.
The buyer essentially wants to steal $2,000 from the dealer and take advanatage of a mistake.
I'd be calling my tow truck buddy as soon as the guy hesitated for 2 seconds about coming back in.
If you have those resources to check with, I will go with what you say. However, I guess where the seller really has the upper hand is that they (dealer) will hold up the "processing" on the car, and then they can repo it or call it stolen-whatever they want. I have a feeling that if the contract was sent to a third party for processing-things would be a little different.
Some here would say "tough luck", but they may be the same ones who, after watching an old lady drop a $20 bill, would pick it up silently and not call out to the elderly woman...
but then, doc fees would be legitimate, wouldnt they? ;-)
I don't know too many people who wouldn't have a problem with noise like that!
Duncan
In California it's my understanding the "doc fees" are regulated. I think they are something like $45.00. However, in other states I know they are a real "profit center."
The point is that the F&I guys does this all day long. If one mistake is-"one too many" the F&I guy should review it-or pass it on to somebody else to review the contract.
This happen to me this past Thursday. I had a signed order and lease package I overnighted to my corporate offices. I checked it three times before inserting it in the overnight envelope. I got a call at 11a.m. the next morning saying the signed order was not in the package. I asked them to recheck. One and a half hours later I got a call back stating that the other page was "misplaced" at corporate and they found it. Since I rechecked on my end, I was sure it was sent!
unfortunately, the rest of us are human, and we make mistakes...heck...we even admit when we do.
Mistakes happen in business, in our everday lives, etc - it's all a matter of how we deal with them and correct them that makes one person different, or better that the other (business-wise, that is).
Take the post a few pages back about the single MOM with two kids looking to buy a new Focus. The dealer is trying to sell her $800.00 worth of exterior and interior fabric protection. THAT GUY IS A CROOK WHO IS TRYING TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF A SINGLE MOM. Fortunately, she checked with us on this board for advice. It was really something how all of you "in the business" were pretty silent on that one! IF some of my comments hit too close to home for you, or any others on this board, I apologize in advance! But there are crooks in your business preying on people everyday... plain and simple!!!!
Nope, I disagree here. There has been a few "undercover" programs done by some T. V.news magazines where they have a "single woman" go in to car dealers. Those guys circle like sharks around a bloody swimmer! Elderly couples and single woman get taken advantage of WAY MORE THAN MEN! I can't site them offhand, but there are statistics to back this up.
did you notice how the terms she ended up with from her bank were identical to the ones the dealer quoted her?
yeah...THEY were crooks. she sure outsmarted THEM.
Taking advantage? If an F&I manager is directed by the GM that part of his/her job description is to throw a salespitch for undercoating and an extended warranty to every customer they see, in order to keep their job, they do what the boss says - everyone gets the pitch.
You can say "no", whether you're an overly agressive 30 year old male, or a naive 18 year old female - if you say "yes" and regret it later, you're STUPID. You can say "no", or my favorite, "no, thank you sir/ma'am". You can get up and walk out. You can drive away in your trade in and nix the deal - anything but blindly signing what you don't understand or don't want, then adopting a victim mentality about how they "took advantage" of you...PLEASE!
Do the research, don't walk into things like a blind sheep, and you'll be a better consumer doing better business - of course, then you won't have anything to come on Edmunds and gripe about...
I will agree with just about everything you said. However, those people who don't do enough research are usually taken advantage of. If you go back to the "Single Woman-Focus" post she said they told her these services (interior & exterior protection) are sanctioned by Ford. What a line - you and I both know it. These things are sanctioned for the benefit of the dealers bottom line! Now, there is nothing necessarily wrong with that, except for the balant misrepresentation about "Ford" authorizing the "protection". This Driftracer is what is wrong in your industry.
It's also true when buying a house,getting a mortgage, getting gasoline, buying groceries,buying a large appliance,buying a small appliance,etc......
Duncan
Well, no it's not. Buying a house...you have a Realtor who is supposedly an advocate for you. Getting a mortgage...you have a federal regulation called "Regulation Z' otherwise known as "Truth in Lending". I.E. Full disclosure on fees. Buying groceries, buying a large appliance, buying a small appliance-the prices are posted most of the time. I remember when the car dealers fought long and hard not to have that window sticker. The car business is one of the few that can lie to your face. "The protection package is sanctioned by Ford". THAT IS AN OUTRIGHT LIE!!!!!!!!!
"THAT IS AN OUTRIGHT LIE!!!!!!!!! "
Pretty strong language, considering you simply don't have the slightest notion of what you're talking about.
Yes, Ford, and every other manufacturer, certainly allows its dealers to sell products other than their vehicles which allows the dealer additional profits - trust me, if the manufacturer didn't want ABC Chevrolet selling mop & glo, they wouldn't be - the manufacturer could easily restrict this type of thing in the dealer/manufacturer franchise agreement. Every manufacturer that sells vehicles in the nation knows that dealers offer products like GAP insurance, extended warranties (profit for the manufacturer as well as the dealer), undercoating, paint sealant, bedliners, stereos, etc. The manufacturer authorizes all of these things, sanctions, if you will, and allows each independent dealer to do what they want as long as they move iron and have a decent CSI rating.
"you have a Realtor who is supposedly an advocate for you"
Now THAT's a crock - the realtor makes (usually) 3-7% of the selling price in commission, only that rate of comission can't really be justified, it's just an "accepted norm". I've been charged $100 for a credit check, when my dealership (at the time) was getting charged $3.25 per bureau inquiry...oh, yeah, those guys were REALLY my advocates...
Lets see if I have this one right .. "you're" mad because "you" feel dealers take advantage ..? .. hmm, let me ponder this one ..
So, what your saying is: it's ok that Furniture stores charge $2,200 for couches and bedroom sets that cost them $500/$700, and on the way out the door, they "all" want to charge $89/$149 for the "fabric protector" - but thats ok ..... Jewelry stores sell watches for $1,500 that cost them $500/$600 and if it breaks you have to send it off to Switzerland to get it fixed, wait 3 months and hope it comes back - but thats ok .... it's ok that the Wal-Mart beachside, charges $9.99 for Marine plywood when the store inland charges $6.99 .... it's ok that 120/130 Real estate agents can sell homes with known flood plains and FEMA has to take them to court in 5 states (so much for Realtors) .... I guess it's okay for builders to charge $125 for tile squares that cost them $14 or $5.99 for the ones that cost them .89cts, then, lets not forget the labor .l.o.l. (so much for builders) .... I guess you think it's okay that the honeymooners from Boston on their 7 day cruise pay $3,800 and the folks from Minnesota pay $4,500, when everyone else pays $1,500 if, they do their homework (so much for Travel agents) .... I guess it's okay for the guy to pay $8,000 in closing costs, when the guy down the street pays $2,500 on their $250,000 homes, if he does his homework (so much for lenders) - but thats okay .... all this happens every second of every day, but thats okay ..?
I guess the point is, you have a chip on your shoulder and you can have it surgically removed .. the VAST majority of dealers work Huge hours, spend Big money on advertising, property, lights, electric, repair, employee costs, inventory, you name it - it's HUGE .. but it's Not Okay for them to make any profit on a $15,000/$25,000 investment ......
Do I agree with some of the employee's taking advantage of certain items on the TV broadcasts *-absolutely not-* ~ but they "were" exactly that, "employee's" of that company, certainly not the owners manipulation or encouragement .... it certainly isn't worse than having a Maintenance agreement shoved in my face everytime I buy a clock radio or a TV from Best Buys for eighty bucks, I can say: No thank you.! .. -or- when Hurricane Andrew smashed the Florida coast and we had every Roof, Plumber, Cement company etc, from up north and dropping $5,000 of cheap shoddy work for $15,000 and killing the ol' folks for twice that ~ where were the News investigators then .?!? I guess having tea and crumpets because they didn't want to get too muddy ..l.o.l....
No business is perfect, and if you could sit in a showroom for a few days you would be shocked at the stories I hear from "your" neighbors and friends when I look at their trades -and- their credit reports .. "that's really Visa's mistake for $3,000, not mine (really.?) .. the last dealer screwed me because he forgot to tell me I had a pay-off on my car (oh, I understand) .. actually my wife charged-off that Burdines card for $4,200, not me (no kidding.?) .. it shows I have been late with my mortgage payments, but I never have (wow, poor guy.!) .. the dealer down the street said they would give me $17,000 for my trade (hmm interesting, they just called me and said $12,000) .. it's never been in an accident (then how come we have overspray in the door jams and your Vin#'s are missing in the fenders.?) -- this all coming from $20,000 a month Lawyers, Doctors and Evangelists ..... you would be Amazed Chuck, I mean "stunned" - but it happens everyday in every showroom from Portland Maine to San Diego ..... reality.? you betcha.!
Terry