I became increasing alarmed after reading several different entries in various forums here as well as other websites regarding things to check for on the Purchase Order Form/making a deposit and making sure specifications were stipulated . This has been a very educational process but sometimes challenging when it comes to all the things to keep in mind when buying. Sorry I paniced.....
it's not as if people haven't been ripped off before at a dealership, or any other business, for that matter.
It's just that going into the deal with such an anxiety attack mode going, you're sure to leave the deal with a bad taste in your mouth - something may go wrong, be it a scratch, and attitude, or a non-full tank of fuel - things that wouldn't normally be a big deal suddenly are when you go into the place with your phazers set on kill..
there is no such law. each case is handled differently if it were to go to court, of which 99.99999% do not. most of the time, it is established that the ordered vehicle is different enough to be a risk to the dealer, and if the car is not taken, will be a loss. therefore, many times, the dealer gets to keep it.
I agree. WHy panic? If you want them to itemize better, just ask. WHen I ordered a BMW, it had the options itemized, along with the price. Of course they want you to understand exactly what you put the deposit on, since they don't want to have a problem 3 months from now when you refuse delivery becasue the unit isn't what you ordered.
That's the best advice - a vehicle is a major purchase. If you don't feel comfortable, cancel the deal and wait. Unless you're currently walking 4 miles uphill in a foot of snow each day, there's no panic.
Even if there's absolutely nothing wrong with the deal, giving yourself some time to review paperwork is a sound financial decision.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
"i didnt even realize it...lol. i guess bill is back, huh?"
Next thing you know, we'll be debating reverse auctions and why it's not prudent to do a 200 dealer blast fax for a vehicle that would have to be ordered, anyway...
i took about 4 hours to read (and scroll) through this topic, and it looks like some people were egging bill on...i think bowke28 and driftracer were the ones. looks like it was almost fun for them!
OK, no need to re-visit that conversation... let's let it remain in the past.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
My brother and I both bought cars at Thorobred Chevrolet in Chandler, AZ in the last few months. In both deals they pulled underhanded tricks in the finance office. Specifically, after agreeing to a trade-in value and filling out all the paperwork, they tried to change the trade-in allowance. They claimed that they had mis-read the odometer and my trade was now worth $1200 less than agreed upon. They had inspected the cars completely and written the mileage as clear as day on the form. Don't fall for this ploy!
By the way, don't buy their lie that they must have your credit info because of the Patriot Act.
Two months ago we purchased a new 2004 Santa Fe. We live a long distance from the nearest dealership, but spent hours on the phone with the different dealers, negotiating a fair price. We were very specific about our needs in the new vehicle, the most important of which is a need for a 4WD SUV. One dealership offering the best price said they had one on the lot and for $1000 would hold it until we could get there to test drive it.
I was having surgery that week, so it was another 3 weeks before we could get to the dealership. We arrived early one morning, test drove the vehicle, traded in our old 4WD GMC, paid cash for the balance and were quite happy as we drove off the lot.
Less than 2 months later, we had our first big snow. That is when we discovered that we were not driving a 4WD SUV. We actually got stuck in the snow for the first time in my life.
We are now very unhappy with this whole transaction.. We feel as if we were intentionally deceived regarding this vehicle. At this point the dealership is saying they have no oweness in this error, but if we want to bring the vehicle back and trade it in for a 2005 4WD, we are more than welcome. We of course would take a big loss on the vehicle from or original purchase price.
If anyone has any suggestions on how we can handle this, it would be appreciated.
Was the price difference between dealers enough to send up a red flag something was amiss?
And...when you took delivery, didn't the salesperson go over the operation and controls of the vehicle with you?
I guess I'm just puzzled too why you didn't notice the 4WD controls weren't there?
Under the circumstances it would be nice if that dealer could give you an extra amount for your trade in. I would hate to think they did this on purpose. Depending on where you live a 2WD SUV can be very hard to sell.
#1: The price difference was not so significant to send up any red flags.
#2: Yes, the salesperson when over the controls. The SanteFe 4X4 is actually an "AWD" (the same as our Audi) and the only button in the vehicle says "Traction Control", which is the same button for either a 2WD or 4WD. There are no controls in the Santa Fe AWD to switch to 4WD like in our old GMC.
Yes, I feel like an idiot that I didn't catch this sooner. I was so specific with the sales person, we assumed we were getting what we agreed to on the phone.
I'm not a salesman, but does the selling dealer keep a folder on a sale like this. I know our dealer has a folder on us in service and in sales. It has lots of papers in it from 5 or 6 previous sales. Might there be a folder with the notes during the transaction that says you wanted an AllWheelDrive?
An honest dealer could see there was an error in negotiations and help you trade at low/no profit to salesperson/dealer. And you've said nothing to indicate a dishonest dealer or that you're trying to get AWD when you didn't bargain for it in the deal.
How many miles are on the car now? IF it's not too many, the dealer might be able to resell it as a lightly used car. Having had a couple of major surgeries I understand how tense things can be before the date when you're trying to get loose ends tied up. Perhaps the dealer and salesman will understand too.
"The sales slip say SUV FWD, which we took to mean Four Wheel Drive. As it turns out, it means FRONT wheel drive."
What I wonder is if FWD in the sales slip represents an ambiguous contract. Since the dealer is the drafter of the contract, is it possible to use legal means to void the contract and to return this SUV?
Where I've seen these cases go is that the consumer has little or no recourse, it becomes a he said/she said situation, and the two months between delivery and discovery flat kill any chances of getting anything - not to make light of this, but it's like going to the police after two months and claiming someone assaulted you in a bar and you want them charged with assault...
The biggest issue is that you'll hardly get a lawyer to touch the situation, since it's not blatant fraud (even if intentional), the consumer has responsibilities to ensure that the product they want is the product they're buying, and the most you're out is the difference between 2WD and 4WD, which is about $2k....then again, they didn't charge them for a 4x4 and sell them a 2WD vehicle...
I guess Hyundai doesn't want to tell you what the car doesn't have. I just looked at the sticker on one on my lot to verify it is not there so this isn't coming from memory.
It would be easy to miss it on a Sante Fe... It is like a CR-V.. The CR-V has a little "real time 4WD" sticker on the back window... and that is the only difference. Easy to see it on the Monroney sticker.. but, easy to miss it, if it was the 2WD model.
At least on an F-250, you'd look for that lowrange lever (they still have those?).
you're supposed to look under the vehicle for some form of drive shaft and gearing to the back axle right? no shaft, no gearing, no 4 wheel drive right?
Well.. If you didn't have two to compare, you (not you specifically) might miss it... It isn't as easy to see as... say.. the front differential on an F-250 4WD.
And, most people have no clue how a car works.. They just know that they go in 4WD, and don't go in 2WD.. The Sante Fe and the CR-V have a system that engages the AWD automatically... No input required from the driver, and no instrumentation that even lets the driver know about it.
I can definitely see how many people wouldn't know one way or the other, unless someone else told them..
the most difficult vehicle ive ever seen to determine whether it was 2wd or 4wd is a cadillac srx. all the underpinnings are covered, so you cant see where the transfer case would be, and no instrumentation on the dash on either one.
I posted this message in the holdback forum, but everyone there just got tied up on the subject of 'is holdback profit, or not?'. So far I've got not reaction to my question about it being a scam.
I recently started discussions with a Toyota dealer, in which I indicated that I had done my homework, and knew the numbers, and wanted to put together a deal based on his cost plus a fair profit...
The sales guy made a big deal about how he had gotten special permission to show me the numbers, as long as I understood he needed to make a 'fair' profit, and showed me invoice, plus options, plus advertising cost, plus finance reserve, plus gas cost, plus holdback. All the numbers matched what I found on Edmunds.com. So he added all the numbers up and announced, 'and this is our invoice'.
I looked at his numbers, and when I pointed out that the holdback was a credit, not a cost, and it should be subtracted, not added, he stammered that in 3 years this is how it was always done ... he also threw in that holdback was part of the invoice. Clever that Toyota's invoice is an 'invoice', but since he created the title on 'invoice' for his number, he can just use the word 'invoice' without being specific as to which invoice he was referring.
Anyhow, when I was browsing the 4Runner 'prices paid' board, I notices a couple of people included the printouts from their dealer. If you pull out a calculator and add them, it seems this practice of taking the Toyota invoice, and adding holdback a second time is not just something done by my dealer, but is a more widespread practice to convince a customer he got something for $ 200 over invoice, when he actually paid $ 1,500 over cost.
As stated, the holdback forum jumped on the subject of 'cost is none of the consumer's business', and 'holdback is not profit'.
Is anyone willing to discuss if this is a trick or a scam?
When the salesman was anxious to show you the numbers, you know there was something to his advantage there. It's like the infomercials where they're going to teach you to make a lot of money in the stock market rather than making the money for themselves.
Once you come to terms with the fact that you'll never, ever know the dealer's exact & true cost, you'll be able to make a deal and be happy. Avoid dealers who try to show you that they're not making a profit - why do you care either way? If they're in a huge hurry to prove that they're not, it seems fishy.
Run to another Toyota dealer. There are tons of good ones around as noted in the Prices Paid discussion.
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I've never had success negotiating a deal the way you did. The sales guys do that day in and day out. We do this once every few years. I've had better success doing my homework online, negotiating with the internet sales person, tell him I'm an internet junkie and based on my research "this is what I'm willing to pay, today, right now, I want that car".
From the last two Toyotas I bought the sales guy said after we agreed on a price, "you're getting the vehicle for close to invoice but we should still meet our sales figures so we'll have the hold back coming in."
So my understanding is that hold back is "money given from the manfuacturer to the dealer if certain sales numbers are met". How can that be a cost? It's profit. But if a dealer knows they're going to meet their sales numbers they may be willing to negotiate that.
and it's awfully incorrigible for someone to think they have a right to a dealer's funding. Here's the deal, take the blinders off, take out the earplugs, and listen up:
Let's compare two vehicles, same model, same options, etc, and same holdback amounts. One comes in on a factory order, is picked up the very next day, and motors down the road. The $600 holdback is still in the air somewhere.
The other car came in last year, but hasn't sold because it's not a popular color. It's been on the lot for 10 months. The holdback, the money offered by the manufacturer to offset flooring costs, ran out 6 months ago on this unit. The dealer has been paying interest on the car for 6 months, which is now MORE than the holdback was.
Comparing these two cars on a P&L statement, the dealer is actually in the red, since the older unit has cost enough money to not only eat up its own holdback, but the holdback on the car that just hit the ground as well.
Before anyone thinks they're entitled to money just because you're aware of it, make sure you know what you're talking about.
I could care less what a dealer makes on a car. Most people get caught up on what each item costs (prep, registration, taxes etc...) or what incentives the dealer gets... it just does not matter at all. What does matter is you get the best OTD price and that you are satisfied with the dealer.
I'm going to TRY to play peacemaker before someone has an aneurism.
I believe the question on the table is not whether or not holdback should be taken into consideration, but whether or not this "invoice" the Toyota salesman is holding shows the invoice number BEFORE holdback or AFTER? Because what the salesman is saying is "here is the invoice without holdback and now you have to add in this holdback number to get the true total invoice price." I think maybe, to avoid the typical bickering and back and forth that surrounds this topic, we could JUST address THAT particular question and avoid the topic as to if it should be included in the deal or not. just a suggestion.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Comments
I became increasing alarmed after reading several different entries in various forums here as well as other websites regarding things to check for on the Purchase Order Form/making a deposit and making sure specifications were stipulated . This has been a very educational process but sometimes challenging when it comes to all the things to keep in mind when buying. Sorry I paniced.....
It's just that going into the deal with such an anxiety attack mode going, you're sure to leave the deal with a bad taste in your mouth - something may go wrong, be it a scratch, and attitude, or a non-full tank of fuel - things that wouldn't normally be a big deal suddenly are when you go into the place with your phazers set on kill..
I doubt if there is anything to worry about here.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Even if there's absolutely nothing wrong with the deal, giving yourself some time to review paperwork is a sound financial decision.
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Bingo.!
Just like my Great Grand Daddy used to say: .. a little information is dangerous, and too much is not enough ..
Take your time, read all the stuff, then make a decision ......
Thanks for stopping by ....
Terry.
Next thing you know, we'll be debating reverse auctions and why it's not prudent to do a 200 dealer blast fax for a vehicle that would have to be ordered, anyway...
...wakes up in a cold sweat...
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By the way, don't buy their lie that they must have your credit info because of the Patriot Act.
SORRY FOR THE CROSS POST.
I was having surgery that week, so it was another 3 weeks before we could get to the dealership. We arrived early one morning, test drove the vehicle, traded in our old 4WD GMC, paid cash for the balance and were quite happy as we drove off the lot.
Less than 2 months later, we had our first big snow. That is when we discovered that we were not driving a 4WD SUV. We actually got stuck in the snow for the first time in my life.
We are now very unhappy with this whole transaction.. We feel as if we were intentionally deceived regarding this vehicle. At this point the dealership is saying they have no oweness in this error, but if we want to bring the vehicle back and trade it in for a 2005 4WD, we are more than welcome. We of course would take a big loss on the vehicle from or original purchase price.
If anyone has any suggestions on how we can handle this, it would be appreciated.
Thanks.
And...when you took delivery, didn't the salesperson go over the operation and controls of the vehicle with you?
I guess I'm just puzzled too why you didn't notice the 4WD controls weren't there?
Under the circumstances it would be nice if that dealer could give you an extra amount for your trade in. I would hate to think they did this on purpose. Depending on where you live a 2WD SUV can be very hard to sell.
Good Luck!
Terry.
#2: Yes, the salesperson when over the controls. The SanteFe 4X4 is actually an "AWD" (the same as our Audi) and the only button in the vehicle says "Traction Control", which is the same button for either a 2WD or 4WD. There are no controls in the Santa Fe AWD to switch to 4WD like in our old GMC.
Yes, I feel like an idiot that I didn't catch this sooner. I was so specific with the sales person, we assumed we were getting what we agreed to on the phone.
An honest dealer could see there was an error in negotiations and help you trade at low/no profit to salesperson/dealer. And you've said nothing to indicate a dishonest dealer or that you're trying to get AWD when you didn't bargain for it in the deal.
How many miles are on the car now? IF it's not too many, the dealer might be able to resell it as a lightly used car. Having had a couple of major surgeries I understand how tense things can be before the date when you're trying to get loose ends tied up. Perhaps the dealer and salesman will understand too.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I would call your salesperson and REMIND him of your conversations. Only trouble I see is the amount of time that passed before your discovery.
It would be different if you had noticed this the next day. I would ask to speak with the GM of that store.
Unfortunately for you that looks like thats the dealer's out as the FWD abbreviation is typically referenced as front wheel drive.
Good luck to you- Let us know what happens.
What I wonder is if FWD in the sales slip represents an ambiguous contract. Since the dealer is the drafter of the contract, is it possible to use legal means to void the contract and to return this SUV?
Any lawyers out there? Drift?
See, you can still impress your neighbors.
However, I would not use that approach if you are trying to sell it to a big fella named Bubba.
The biggest issue is that you'll hardly get a lawyer to touch the situation, since it's not blatant fraud (even if intentional), the consumer has responsibilities to ensure that the product they want is the product they're buying, and the most you're out is the difference between 2WD and 4WD, which is about $2k....then again, they didn't charge them for a 4x4 and sell them a 2WD vehicle...
There's actually no monetary damage at all.
At least on an F-250, you'd look for that lowrange lever (they still have those?).
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And, most people have no clue how a car works.. They just know that they go in 4WD, and don't go in 2WD.. The Sante Fe and the CR-V have a system that engages the AWD automatically... No input required from the driver, and no instrumentation that even lets the driver know about it.
I can definitely see how many people wouldn't know one way or the other, unless someone else told them..
regards,
kyfdx
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I recently started discussions with a Toyota dealer, in which I indicated that I had done my homework, and knew the numbers, and wanted to put together a deal based on his cost plus a fair profit...
The sales guy made a big deal about how he had gotten special permission to show me the numbers, as long as I understood he needed to make a 'fair' profit, and showed me invoice, plus options, plus advertising cost, plus finance reserve, plus gas cost, plus holdback. All the numbers matched what I found on Edmunds.com. So he added all the numbers up and announced, 'and this is our invoice'.
I looked at his numbers, and when I pointed out that the holdback was a credit, not a cost, and it should be subtracted, not added, he stammered that in 3 years this is how it was always done ... he also threw in that holdback was part of the invoice. Clever that Toyota's invoice is an 'invoice', but since he created the title on 'invoice' for his number, he can just use the word 'invoice' without being specific as to which invoice he was referring.
Anyhow, when I was browsing the 4Runner 'prices paid' board, I notices a couple of people included the printouts from their dealer. If you pull out a calculator and add them, it seems this practice of taking the Toyota invoice, and adding holdback a second time is not just something done by my dealer, but is a more widespread practice to convince a customer he got something for $ 200 over invoice, when he actually paid $ 1,500 over cost.
As stated, the holdback forum jumped on the subject of 'cost is none of the consumer's business', and 'holdback is not profit'.
Is anyone willing to discuss if this is a trick or a scam?
Art
"Figures never lie, but liars always figure."
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Run to another Toyota dealer. There are tons of good ones around as noted in the Prices Paid discussion.
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From the last two Toyotas I bought the sales guy said after we agreed on a price, "you're getting the vehicle for close to invoice but we should still meet our sales figures so we'll have the hold back coming in."
So my understanding is that hold back is "money given from the manfuacturer to the dealer if certain sales numbers are met". How can that be a cost? It's profit. But if a dealer knows they're going to meet their sales numbers they may be willing to negotiate that.
Let's compare two vehicles, same model, same options, etc, and same holdback amounts. One comes in on a factory order, is picked up the very next day, and motors down the road. The $600 holdback is still in the air somewhere.
The other car came in last year, but hasn't sold because it's not a popular color. It's been on the lot for 10 months. The holdback, the money offered by the manufacturer to offset flooring costs, ran out 6 months ago on this unit. The dealer has been paying interest on the car for 6 months, which is now MORE than the holdback was.
Comparing these two cars on a P&L statement, the dealer is actually in the red, since the older unit has cost enough money to not only eat up its own holdback, but the holdback on the car that just hit the ground as well.
Before anyone thinks they're entitled to money just because you're aware of it, make sure you know what you're talking about.
I believe the question on the table is not whether or not holdback should be taken into consideration, but whether or not this "invoice" the Toyota salesman is holding shows the invoice number BEFORE holdback or AFTER? Because what the salesman is saying is "here is the invoice without holdback and now you have to add in this holdback number to get the true total invoice price." I think maybe, to avoid the typical bickering and back and forth that surrounds this topic, we could JUST address THAT particular question and avoid the topic as to if it should be included in the deal or not. just a suggestion.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S