Dealer's Tricks - bait & switch, etc.

isellhondas · April 2005

Some used cars are a dime a dozen while others like that RX7 convertable are a rare find. that would be a good example of a "snooze and lose" car.

BTW, I've been keeping an eye out for a nice RX7 vert' for myself. I've owned three RX7's. GREAT cars! Never had a convertable though.

kyfdx · April 2005

Actually, that was in '90.. and it was an '89 convertible with just 9K miles..

Great car, and a convertible design that was ahead of it's time.. but, pretty gutless from an acceleration standpoint.. and poor fuel mileage, as well... Lots of cool features like speakers in the headrest and BBS made the factory alloys..

But, I thought it was very cool, and the price was right.. It turned out okay.. the 911 was my dream car..

I see the convertibles for anywhere from $5K-$9K now...

cadillacmike · April 2005

Same with my Eldorado convertible, They only "made" but 50 per year, so I wasn't going to let the one I bought get away!

I still wish that it had the bose stereo though :mad:

thenebean · April 2005

we are a smaller store - never really had a problem with people leaving phantom deposits then running off.

bobst, i do my best to be courteous and honest. it is how i would want to be treated! remember the golden rule! we all seem to forget such a simple rule...

imagine how much nicer things would be (in general!) if we remembered...

do unto others as you would have them do unto you!

-thene

mj2 · April 2005

My friend is buying a new Camry XLE and isn't a good negotiator.

OK, so he buys the car and when I look at his paperwork later that evening, nothing makes sense. The agreed upon price is MUCH higher.

He put 7 grand down and has perfect credit and finances for 60+ months @5.25+. When I look at his receipt this 21.000+ car suddenly is costing him 27,000+ The paperwork is so confusing. I dont even see where they applied the downpayment. It starts with a "net price" which I assumed to be the price he and the dealer agreed upon before going in to the financing room, and then goes down hill from there.

It went like this: the Salesman and my friend agreed on a price. He then went into the financing Dept and that is when this price suddenly got all confusing to my friend. .

As of Tuesday of this week it's a done deal. Does he have any recourse?? Btw, the dealership (he went to) people are very intimidating.

Thank you

driftracer · April 2005

block in the middle or top of the finance contract, it takes everything and adds it together, showing all the money in the car deal - don't know why it's like that, it's really confusing, but it takes the purchase price, adds cash down, and adds cost of financing.

Take the contract and get the purchase price, see where the cash down is shown, usually just below purchase price, add in taxes and licensing, and you'll get the net figure that was paid for the car.

mikefm58 · April 2005

I've never had any problems figuring out my contract here in Florida and a few years back in NY. Granted it's not simple, but I can figure things out, even when I'm still in the business office. Now leasing is a whole different story.

It's really the final numbers that count, monthly payement or if a cash purchase, the amount of the check I'd write. If I've done my homework correctly, then this should match what the dealer comes up with.

mj2 · April 2005

I don't have it in front of me but I looked at it brielfly last night and I didnt see where the cash down is in the contract. I think my friend is in denial and he needs to act on this. Thanks much! This is NC btw.

bobst · April 2005

You know, this modern world can be a tough place to live. People who can't manage their money right are in for a tough time.

I guess the first thing is to get your friend to admit he made a mistake when he signed the papers in the F&I office. If he accepts that he needs your help, then you can do something. If he won't admit it, that's life. Enjoy his friendship.

I guess there are worse things people can do to themselves than wasting a few grand when you buy a car. I see people eating unhealthy food all the time, and the harm resulting from that is worse than anything a tricky F&I guy can do to you.

lhess · April 2005

My boyfriend's daughter took her mother (the ex-wife) shopping for a new car. After trading a Dodge Intrepid that she supposedly got $3,000 for, paying down $3,000 cash, financing $16,000, she paid $22,000 for a USED, 2-yr old Grand Am GT. I had test driven a new one at the GM lot just prior to this deal (which prompted the trade in the first place) with an MSRP of $21,8??. Course, the ex was incapable of even keeping track of her own checkbook and the daughter was only 18. My boyfriend was UPSET. He had just paid off the Intrepid compliments of a court order and the minute they got the title, IDIOTS ON THE LOOSE!! It's elementary MATH, people, and if you can't understand it, walk away and take someone with you that can ask the right questions and get straight answers. But, they sign!! That is not the salesman's fault!!

bobst · April 2005

That's too bad, lhess. If she was only hurting herself, that would be one thing. However, when she starts complaining to her ex-husband that she is short of money, then it starts hurting you. Good luck. I hope it works out for you.

Yep, you are right. If a salesman can sell a used car for more than the price of a new one, you can't blame him.

mikefm58 · April 2005

" If a salesman can sell a used car for more than the price of a new one, you can't blame him. "

At the risk of being flamed, I totally disagree. What happenned in lhess's story is unethical, it is legal, but unethical.

No offense to folks in the biz that post here, I have the utmost respect for them and would do business with them any day. But the "rotten apples" like the salesman in her story make their job difficult.

bobst · April 2005

Lots of people sell used houses for more than a new house would cost, so why is it wrong to sell a used car for more than it would cost for a new car?

bolivar · April 2005

Ahhhhh, so cars are investments then?

lhess · April 2005

there was absolutely no deceit involved on behalf of the salesman. He pulled the old "what do you want your payment to be?" and that's what she got. She knew the amount of her trade, she knew the amount she put down and she knew the amount she financed. She just didn't know to add all that up to see what she was paying for the car. Not many people gonna explain her wrongs to her and give her a better deal!! And, that's not a saleman's job!!

mikefm58 · April 2005

" Lots of people sell used houses for more than a new house would cost, so why is it wrong to sell a used car for more than it would cost for a new car? "

You're comparing apples to oranges. Houses appreciate over time, cars do not.

mikefm58 · April 2005

Interesting story lhess. I'm sure the salesman didn't say anything deceitful or anything that was out right wrong or illegal. And yes I know a salesman's job is to sell it for as much as he can.

It's just that I feel people who prey on the uninformed like that, ummm, have less morals than I do. I couldn't look myself in the mirror if I did what that salesman did. Just my humble opinion.

bobst · April 2005

Tell that to an owver of an old Bugatti or an owner of a 1950's MB Gullwing.

driftracer · April 2005

"Houses appreciate over time, cars do not"

So, it's OK to pay more than market value for a house, but it's not for a car?

Let's say a house appraises at $180k. A family REALLY wants it and the realtor has placed a strong sense of urgency with them, and they're willing to pay $200k. Happens all the time. You can blame the [non-permissible content removed] realtor, the stupid consumer, or "the market", but it happens.

People only get thrashed about it when it's a car deal, though....I say if you can get $20k car for a car that's worth $12k, go for it.

bobst · April 2005

Auto sales is a dog eat dog world. If you walk into a dealer wearing your milk-bone underwear, expect to have your ... well, I guess this is a family oriented web site, isn't it?

mikefm58 · April 2005

The outrageous price of a house today, is a bargain next year. Paying 200K today for a house that sold recently for 180K is not unheard of, well in Orlando anyway.

" Tell that to an owver of an old Bugatti or an owner of a 1950's MB Gullwing. "

That's a collector's item. Not an everyday example.

Sorry drift and bobst, let's agree to disagree. IMO a salesperson who "reels in a live one" and "takes them to the cleaners" gives the car salesperson their stereotypical rep.

driftracer · April 2005

that when someone walks in with their laptop and their research done, and the salesman bows before you, it's as things should be - when someone hasn't a clue, but is still an employed adult with a job and some education, that same salesman is a thief because he makes money on you....

Talk about a walking contradiction.

mikefm58 · April 2005

Anything about a salesman bowing down to anyone? Or that a salesman that made money is a thief? The salesman (and dealership) will always make money. Bad example again drift.

imidazol97 · April 2005

It sounds like the salesman misrepresented what was being done and added charges of which the consumer was unaware.

I realize this is second-hand information. So we don't know the actual story. I wonder if it would pass the TV Consumer Protection Team clips OR Consumer Report's evaluation of the transaction and the proceedings... The local TV reporter would be my telephone call when I heard about this and went over the paperwork...

The bright lights of Turn to Two (Channel 2) would probably clean up the transaction. But then I'm hearing second-hand and I have a bias about informed dumbness in transactions.

audia8q · April 2005

just remember....the folks here on edmunds who do their homework get the benefit of buying a car at or below market value because somebody else paid more than market value.....I doubt anyone who enjoys this benefit feels bad for the guy who overpaid and made it all possible.

kyfdx · April 2005

No doubt... my thoughts exactly.. Thank goodness for rubes.

mikefm58 · April 2005

" the folks here on edmunds who do their homework get the benefit of buying a car at or below market value because somebody else paid more than market value"

LOL......Good point.....

lhess · April 2005

of obvious illegal sales tactics. I found an 01 Eclipse spyder on the net in SC (I'm in WV) priced at $19,900. I call them to confirm the car, the price, and tell them about my trade. They quote a good trade over the phone and I decide to spend my Saturday driving south. When I arrive my salesman greets us (and I immediately make it clear to him, nicely, that he's selling a car to me, not the man i'm with) and tells me there's been a slight problem with the eclipse - the mileage was somewhat inaccurate on the net and it has about 4 K more miles on that was listed (he thinks someone has been driving it to lunch?). Whatever, the miles on the car were not a big issue at this point (less than 15K even with the "Extras"). I drive the car, like it, and decide to talk to him about the numbers we had talked about.
When we go to his office he starts talking about the price of the car as being $22,900. I question him as to why the car has gone up in price from $19,900. He informs me that he does have another car (same year, same color, everything) for $19,900, but it's not in very good shape. I tell him i want to see it anyway. It was filthy, had dents all over it, would barely start, smoked like a freight train and finally died on him. He said they were selling it so cheap because it had been on the lot for more than 90 days and that was their policy. I asked him why, if it had been on the lot for more than 90 days, they hadn't pulled it in the shop, got it running, or washed and detailed it. No comment.
Next is my trade. He quoted a trade price of $15K (can't remember the exact numbers) on the phone. After the service guy drives it, he has bad news for me. He had quoted me a price as if my 01 Grand am was a V-6, the salesman says it's only a 4 and he can only give me around $12K. I asked him how he had arrived at the $15K quote and he tells me KBB. I said "You did know it was a 5 spd and priced it as such?" OH YES. I said, "Well, KBB should have indicated to you that Pontiac did not make a v-6 available with a manual tranny in 2001. He actually got mad at me and told me he didn't think he could do a deal with me.
I walk out into the showroom and announce as loudly as i can that I think the Better Business Bureau and the Attorney General's office would love to hear about the "Bait Car" sitting on the lot looking like crap and the "Switch Car" that looks just like it except it's a little more expensive. I tell them that when i got my marketing degree a few years earlier that Bait and Switch Advertising was illegal and i was pretty sure that it still was!! I got ushered into the manager's office really fast and was asked to tell him what would make me happy on the car deal.

I got $16K out of my car (almost as much as i had paid for it a year earlier), got the $22,900 car for $19,000, got $300 cash to have it detailed (they had just gotton it and hadn't had it detailed), $30 to buy a tank of gas, and made them swap out a bent rim for one off of another car. Yes, I got a good deal, but i would have felt much better about myself had i worked this great deal and then told them to shove it!! And, reported them. I'm sure they're still doing it because most of the saps of this world fall for it!! Buyer Beware!! i'm not saying it's right, but that's how it is!

mirth · April 2005

This is why I'm very reluctant to drive long distances for a "deal". Because you can't tell over the phone if a dealer is honest or if they're low-balling you. So if your driving 50+ (100+, 200+?) miles, it's a major pain for you if the deal falls through. Whereas if you go to your local place, you can be home in 10-15 minutes if things go sour.

jasmith52 · April 2005

The reason you got jacked around is because you were treated poorly, Really poorly, and yet you proceeded to do business with them. If you and everyone else would walk away from places like this then these practices would stop.

As it is, they have nothing to lose by treating you this way.

You get the industry that YOU voted for with your dollars !

ksccts · April 2005

Excellent point! :mad:

lhess · April 2005

yes, i was treated poorly and they tried to jack me around, but I did know a little about my rights. They didn't get to pull they're trick on me. It's the idiots who go out armed with no intelligence and very little common sense and let them get away with it that put their votes on that kind of industry. For every person out there who knows what they're doing, there are 5 who can barely sign their names on a contract. That's a majority!!

mikefm58 · April 2005

Maybe they treated you like that because you are a woman and they thought they could pull a fast one? You got the vehicle for a GREAT price, good for you. Sounds like they picked the wrong cookie to pick on....... My wife is scared to death of dealing with anyone in sales or service, as are most of her friends.

But if I were in your shoes at that dealer, I would not have done business and reported them.

ksccts · April 2005

The trouble is that by purchasing a vehicle from them, you have enabled them to stay in business and cheat the next unfortunate soul who drives down on to the lot. If people would stop buying cars from these dishonest dealers, then they would either go out of business or change their business practices. To me, it is ridiculous to complain about how a dealership treats you and then to go ahead and buy a car from them. Why reward them with a sale for being dishonest? :confuse:

mirth · April 2005

Why reward them with a sale for being dishonest?

Because some people believe that ALL dealers are dishonest, so they figure they'll just get the same song and dance if they go somewhere else.

lhess · April 2005

These dealers will never go out of business - my walking away would not make or break them. So what? I didn't bite, but the next 4 buyers coming on the lot, probably did to some degree. UNTIL THE BUYING PUBLIC AS A MAJORITY GETS SMART, these people are not going to change how they do business. They do it because people fall for it, not because people like me bought a car from them anyway.
ksccts...I'm not complaining - just related a story about my buying experience. I was surprised to see a dealership doing something so blatant. Considering I ended up financing about 17,500 on the car, drove it for 4 years and just got 12,000 on a trade for it, I think I did pretty well for myself. I went to get a good deal on a car and did just that. I don't babysit for the rest of the car-buying public.

ksccts · April 2005

That's too bad because there are some excellent dealers out there who have integrity and are fair in their dealings.

ksccts · April 2005

UNTIL THE BUYING PUBLIC AS A MAJORITY GETS SMART
How will that happen if everyone does what you did? The majority starts with individuals doing the right thing, i.e not buying cars from dishonest dealers.

I think I did pretty well for myself.
Thats part of the problem. If all people care about is the price then dishonest dealers with no commitment to fairness or customer service will continue to stay in business and people will continue to complain about how they are treated.

thenebean · April 2005

they aren't blaming the buyers - but it doesn't help that a dealership that is sleezy and sneaky to be "rewarded" with a sale when they've pulled all sorts of tricks to get you there. It only justifies to them that it works! And yes, one person makes a difference - because hopefully that one person tells others about their experience, and then those other people don't go their to buy cars - and they tell others not to...it goes on. If you "reward" bad behavior (and buying a car is considered a reward - the salesperson gets paid regardless of what he sold it for) then it just perpetuates the cycle.

does it mean the salesperson/management/dealership are not at fault? no - but you can do something on your end as well.

that's all everyone was saying - its not a one sided blame game. things have become how they are as a combination of both sides. its definitely not an equal split, but it certainly is a combination of the two.

just my .02.

-thene

Kirstie_H · April 2005

Sorry folks, no profanity or name-calling of any kind.

lhess · April 2005

all you saints that say you'd walk away from a deal that's more than $8K better than any deal you've been given in a 2-month car shopping spree, are not being honest. I figured you'd all be busy helping select the next pope or at least offering divine advice to the cardinals!!

This was a high-volume, huge dealership with about 4 locations in Columbia, SC. I live 6 hours away and I'm sure they really didn't care if I bought their car or not - there were enough shoppers on that lot to ease the sting of me leaving. Even if I had walked, I wasn't about to spend my time or money to launch a crusade against them. A friend of mine went to college in Columbia, bought a car there, loved the car, loved the dealership - after my experience. She didn't even listen to me and I really didn't care!!

Once again, I'm not complaining - I was shocked that their tactic was so blatant. The ones that complain are the ones that fall for it, sign a bunch of papers they don't understand, and end up owing so much on a car that their own dad won't buy it from them!!

jasmith52 · April 2005

Was that your second last post on this subject Ihess ?

It wasn't an $8k savings as you never really negotiated a hard deal with any of the other dealers. Your $8k difference was their opening bid price versus your hard fought deal. They are not the same by any means any should really be compared (ie apples and oranges).

Maybe you could have saved another thousand or so at your local dealer. But, you'll never know.

lhess · April 2005

We're saints and PSYCHICS on the forum now. First, I found a total of 2 used cars in my entire state that matched my wants. I'm sure there were others but when they're not listed on a web site or advertised in the local paper, they're impossible to know about. We have a grand total of 4 Mitsubishi dealers in the entire state of WV and Mitsus are not hot-sellers. Plus the car had only been on the market for about a year (new body style). No new ones being sold leads to no used ones hitting the local markets. I visited one dealer in Huntington (2 hours from home) on 2 separate occasions and called the salesman more than a few times trying to get a getter deal on a white car they had. The best deal I got was $23,9 on the eclipse, less than payoff on my car which meant I would have financed in the area of $26K ($4K less than driving a new one off the lot). If I could have afforded that deal, I could have gone for the new one. You can think of me what you will about buying the car from the sleazebag dealership, but don't claim to know what I did or did not try to do while buying this car.

Kirstie_H · April 2005

I think this particular line of conversation has now been exhausted, and we can sum it up thus:
"You shouldn't have bought a vehicle from a dealer who used sleazy tactics because that's rewarding the sleazy dealer."
"I feel I did just fine because I caught the dealer and kept him from employing the sleazy tactic, and got a good car at a good price in the end."

Fairy nuff. Let's move on.

mikefm58 · April 2005

Halleluiah......

stickguy · April 2005

but it's close enough, and I didn't want to start a new topic for an anecdote.

Anyway, I have my car in for service, and my salesperson lent me his demo (NOTE: a real good reason to buy from the local small dealer).

Anyway, the CD in the player was a training seminar on sales techniques (85 closes). It was a "pro" running down a long list of techniques for closing a sale, and they even had cute names (the "Ben Franklin" was my favorite).

And no, none of them involved pshychological torture, or throwing you keys on the roof. Mostly common sense ways to figure out which of the buyers buttons needed to be pushed, and how to overcome resistance/fear.etc. It was actually pretty interesting to listen to.

I just found it amusing that it was in the car for a customer, but I guess it doesn't matter since he already sold me one!

lhess · April 2005

at the attitude toward Mitsubishi. I LOVED THAT CAR. People complimented it all the time (Red GT with a black top) and it was about 99.99% trouble free. I had the top replaced under warranty (at the urging of my service guy) due to some fading and the previous owner had been hard on the rotors (replaced under warranty as well). I do know that there are cars and brands out there that turn my stomach and others love them, so, to each their own!! (I just always like to pump Mitsu whenever I can - lord knows they need it!!)

stickguy - sounds like your friend forgot to take the cd out before loaning you a car. Sounds like a lot of salesfolks out there need to listen to it. Maybe you could burn some copies and sell it on the black market!!

thenebean · April 2005

my friends boyfriend has a 99 eclipse gs-x that will do sub-12 quartermile runs without NOS. just thought i'd share ;-)

so i guess you could say that the eclipse he has is sporty!

-thene

dbauer · April 2005

if the salesman DIDNT sell it for that much, i would question his morals. a wise man once said "if you dont do it, the guy down the street WILL."

if i turn away a big deal like that, im doing a disservice to MY family by bringing home less bacon. to me, THAT is the immoral decision.

dbauer · April 2005

they probably STILL made $3000 on you.

Dealer's Tricks - bait & switch, etc.

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