It's true, there's people I work with that are good at selling anything but dont know much about the product, and then there's people like me who dont have experience selling (my first sales job) but know their product (cars) in and out. I know cars very well, all makes and models, features trims, specs etc etc.... so car sales is almost like a dream job for me... it doesnt even feel like a job.
However some of the top sales guys dont even know the difference between the models... funny isn't it?
bobst - i wouldn't say metro ATL dealerships are more sleezy. no. i can't actually tell you how they compare to other parts of the country. i'm not that young so i've learned some basics about car purchasing over the years, but i can see how other people can get into trouble...and fast.
i know of a few other Honda owners who have had major difficulties with the specific dealership that I mentioned placed the AD that wouldn't be honored, and who employed the salesman that harrassed me and my wife. i can't say if it was a general strategy they were using to maximize profits or not. but they are very high volume - so a lot of people purchase from them.
when i asked the salesman to let me have one of the pre-bumped cars right off the transport, he said essentially "no, we are in business to make profit...i can't sell that vehicle to you". so maybe that was a piece of honesty he conceeded when he knew we weren't going anywhere under any condition. but it took several days to get there.
if they are high volume (they had perhaps 4 or 5 at the street and like 70 or more in the back), you'd think they were doing something "right". i guess it depends on your perspective (purchaser or seller). sure they deserve to make a profit, but bobst - to your point, every potential buyer showing respect and preparedness deserves courtesy, professionalism a fair price and a positive purchase experience.
i left off the fact that we had contacted two other dealerships (that didn't have LX trim ODYs on the lot - at the time we were purchasing, most every metro ATL dealership was moving EX or EX-L trim - almost exclusively) to obtain one from another dealership. both told us essentially, they could not guarentee the vehicle would arrive at their dealership in a pre-bumped condition, and that we would have to pay "dealer cost+labor for installation" for each dealer-installed accessory. another piece of honesty, but a cautionary red flag for my wife and I.
i'm sure my story is not that unique.
as a purchaser, you have to be prepared, and if you're dealing with someone you know that isn't holding his part of the transaction up, there is no real deal, it's time to move along.
from the first moment i contacted the dealership we did purchase from, we knew we were in for a great experience...the type of experience i'd wish on everyone.
Sorry for the delayed response, was on vacation. Thanks for all the replies. Please read the below email in reverse order ( bottom to top) I did cut out some vehicle decription info. I think it shows the dealer knows what OTD means and when I say I "saved", and he agrees, that was in reference to another higher OTD quote. This was after about 30 emails, I said I was ready to buy. Thats when they changed the price. Any more thoughts? How can I get ahold of a GM rep? scott
>> bobbi@ to me More options Jun 1
Dear Scott,
Yes by waiting you have saved.
The below Colorado we can offer for $20,496.12 out the door.
Respectfully ,
Bobbi
Assistant Manager Internet Dept.
2005 Chevrolet Colorado Ext CAb 2WD ------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Original Message -- so it looks like i saved $1K by waiting?
just for the heck of it, since the colorado has $2k incentive, can you tell me what an extended cab 2x4 base model with a/c and auto will cost OTD ? thanks, scott -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, $13,510 before incentives.
Respectfully ,
Bobbi
Assistant Manager Internet Dept. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Original Message -- i heard it was $500.
is it 13,510 OTD without incentives? lemme know....... ------------------------------------------------------------------- - Hide quoted text - On 6/1/05, bobbi > > > Dear Scott, > > your looking at $13,510 before the incentives. We are still waiting to find > out what the cash rebates will be for June. > > Respectfully , > > Bobb > > Assistant Manager Internet Dept. > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------- > -- Original Message -- > how does that change my price? scott >-------------------------------------------------------------- > On 6/1/05, bobbi@: > > > > > > Dear Scott, > > > > we just got confirmation on this and yes it is true. So when are you > coming > > in to get your new Cobalt? > > > > Respectfully , > > > > Bobb > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- Original Message -- > > hey, lemme know if this is true........scott > > > > DETROIT (Reuters) - General Motors Corp. (GM.N: Quote, Profile, > > Research) , suffering from a protracted slump in its U.S. auto sales, > > will announce on Wednesday that the same vehicle discounts available > > to its employees will now be offered to the general public, dealers > > said. > >
Out the door can mean a couple of things. To some people, it means final price including all fees, charges, taxes, rebates, etc.
To this dealer/salesman, it might mean 'out his door'. In other words - this is the GM Employee price + the $75 processing fee - Rebate + tax on rebate. State taxes are additional - you can pay them yourself.
As far as I read, you did not clearly define 'out the door' - hence the confusion.
The price for the same car should be the same regardless of dealer. I don't think the price changed - I think your definition of OTD was different than the dealers.
Another example the dealer knew what OTD meant.....
>>bobbi@ to me More options May 30
Dear Scott,
good afternoon. Out the door with all the fee's is $14047.54. Do you want to come in and do the paperwork on this car?
Respectfully ,
Bob
Assistant Manager Internet Dept.
bobbi@yourchevy.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Original Message -- $12,710 for the two door? ( see below) what do the fee's add up to? scott
>> VIN / Order # Event Code MSRP 1G1AK12F657547822 5000 Vehicle delivered to dealer $15,040 Color1: 95U Ultra Silver Metallic Primary Color Color2: N/A Trim: 14B Gray Cloth Trim Package: 1SA 1SA Option Package Engine: L61 ENGINE GAS, 4 CYL, 2.2L, MFI, ALUM, DOHC Trans: MX0 Transmission, 4 Speed Automatic Other: 1SZ DISCOUNT OPTION PACKAGE PG1 WHEEL 15 X 6, STEEL QTU TIRE ALL P195/60R15-87S BW R/PE TL AL2 SLM Stock Order Identifier U1C RADIO AM/FM STEREO, SEEK/SCAN, CD, CLOCK, ETR VK3 LICENSE PLATE FRONT FRT MOUNTING PKG YF5 California Emissions - Show quoted text -
---------------------------------------------
- Hide quoted text - On 5/30/05, bobbi > > Dear Scott, > that is a great price. If that does not work out our price would be > $12,710. But you need to do this before we lose the bonus cash from the > factory. This price is including the rebate but before fee's. Please keep > me posted. > > Respectfully , > > Bobb
when i reply via email, i quote the sale price (before any taxes, etc) and then list plus sales tax, registration, and dealer conveyance fee. (we dont charge anything above and beyond the CT sales tax, registration whether new or used etc, and our $249 dealer conveyance fee - unless you decide you do want simoniz or extended warranties etc.) we don't force vin etching, pin striping, extra underbody coating, lifetime supply of tube socks, parachuting lessons or any other crazy extras. every so often we'll do up a car (sentra se-r spec V with some nismo components like cold air intake, etc) or put a simoniz on a car or two that we have on the showroom floor, but thats it!
(i kinda like the idea of lifetime supply of tube socks though!) ;-)
okay, take the $14,047 OTD price and minus the $12,710 and you have either $1337 worth of "fees" ( what could all that be?!) or you have our 8% sales tax and nominal fees. scott
Scottay, don't believe anything a sales person tells you.
If a sales person gives you an OTD price on a car with certain specific options, don't believe it until you see the car in the flesh and see the bill of sale with their OTD quote on the bottom line.
If you think a sales person lied to you or deceived you in any other way, don't get upset. If the car is the one you want, then make your offer and see if they accept.
You know, I don't think I have used that phrase "car in the flesh" before. Maybe I was thinking about that commercial where a seemingly intelligent young blonde lady slithers over a car while eating a hamburger.
And scottay, consider that anybody who would lump all salespeople into the same sentence: "don't believe anything a sales person tells you" obviously has an ax to grind. So I suggest you don't believe anything a bobst tells you.
However, his advice "If the car is the one you want, then make your offer and see if they accept." is correct, so I'll tell you that too so you can believe it from me rather than from him.
I would agree, a statement like that "don't believe anything a sales person tells you" just says that you have both an axe to grind as well as being ignorant.. Not all people of any profession or persuasion are the same. I have been mistreated by people of almost any profession, but have found that anyone going in with a chip on their shoulder is asking for it to be knocked off too. Go in with an open mind and knowing how you want to be treated. If that doesn't occur, you can take your business elsewhere. Just my $.02
Let's make sure this doesn't get personal... generalizations aren't generally a good idea!
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being one from the profession that is the least trusted (even below lawyers!) in the world, i get very upset when people just assume that i will be the same as the others (and hopefully those of you who have been around here a while can see that i try hard not to be!)
yes, the profession in general has a reputation, but if you go in thinking that we're all the same, and we're all gonna steal every penny out of your pocket, you're just looking to have a bad buying experience.
however, if you go in with a pleasant and positive attitude, you will have a great experience - if you do get a salesperson you don't like, just walk away. there are plenty of good ones out there that WILL treat you with respect! hopefully you reward those who do their best to make you happy, and your experience pleasant!
"So, keep a sharp eye out, and your calculator handy.."
I agree with this. When I was fresh out of college and got a "big boy" job I went to buy my first car on my own. The mistake I made on that trip was that I didn't prearrange financing before I got to the dealer. I had excellent credit, and a large down payment (33%) to put towards the new car, and planned on using dealer financing for the rest. However, the one smart thing I did was to take my financial calculator with me. The salesman didn't know I had the calculator, and told me that I qualified for 5.9% (this was several years ago), and that X dollars financed for 48 months at 5.9% was $XXX per month. Well, the figure sounded high, and I checked it on my calculator, and the figure was about $75 / month higher than what it should have been. I pointed it out ot him, and after haggling, the payment finally came down to what it should have been at 5.9% for 48 months. My point to all of this rambling is that I don't have a problem with a dealer padding an interest rate. If you are depending on their financing, and they see they can get you 5.5%, but tell you 5.9% (and you are comfortable with 5.9%) - I don't have a problem with that. After all, they are doing me a service by providing me the financing. However, my problem is when the dealer flat out lies about X dollars at X% for X months being way higher than what it mathematically is.
do i push forward with my complaints that this is bait and switch? Thinking about going to small claims court to enforce the offer. ( if that doesnt involve too much hassle for me) Or trying to get a GM rep involved. Maybe the owner of the dealership? What do you think? scott
Have you bought this car? If not, and you aren't happy with their negotiations, then move on to another dealer.
Nothing counts unless you bought a car, and the deal isn't the same one that you signed.. Almost every deal will end up differently than what you are quoted..
As another poster noted.. It may be an issue of semantics.. your definition of OTD vs. the dealer's definition..
If you think they are sleazy, vote with your feet.. No point in getting GM or the owner involved... you haven't even agreed on a price.. and e-mail doesn't count.
Have you bought the car or not? If not you have no Small Claims Court claim since you haven't been damaged. The court would not accept the suit.
If you HAVE bought the car, you signed a contract and whatever you signed rules. In that case you have no claim either since you presumably read whatever you signed. Surely you didn't sign a contract for more than the agreed amount without reading and understanding it first. Have you? If so, you just bought it!
Did you ask what the difference was? That is the next logical step. Simply ask why it is more, and listen to the answer with an open mind.
GM has no interest in the deal. They do not own dealerships and cannot get involved. They will not work with you, nor should they.
If you believe you are being handled improperly complaining to the ownership might help, but you are better off just talking to the SM to find out what their final deal is, and then simply accepting it or walking. YOU drive the deal, not the salesperson. You can walk - he/she cannot.
Have you bought this car? If not, and you aren't happy with their negotiations, then move on to another dealer. >>>>NO DIDNT BUY IT, BUT WOULD LIKE TO HAVE THAT PRICE
Nothing counts unless you bought a car, and the deal isn't the same one that you signed.. Almost every deal will end up differently than what you are quoted.. OVER $1300 DIFFERNT?
As another poster noted.. It may be an issue of semantics.. your definition of OTD vs. the dealer's definition..>>>>I UNDERSTAND THIS, BUT I THINK THE EMAILS SHOW OTD WAS WITH ALL FEES.......UNLESS YOU ARE SAYING TAXES ARENT FEES, IN THAT CASE I GUESS THEY ARE CHARGING $1300 IN FEES? FOR WHAT?
If you think they are sleazy, vote with your feet.. No point in getting GM or the owner involved... you haven't even agreed on a price.. and e-mail doesn't count. THEN WHY EMAIL ME A PRICE IF IT DOESNT "COUNT'? I ACCEPTED THE PRICE OFFERED, THEN THEY BACKED OUT. GM AND THE OWNER NEED TO KNOW OF SHADY TACTICS, OR THEY WILL CONTINUE TO HAVE DISSATIFIED CUSTOMERS. scott
Im a little confused...the difference you mentioned is $1337. Unless I missed something...did you ask the dealer what exactly the $1337 is? ITS THE DIFFERENCE BETEWEEN FEES AND NO FEES. THEY CLAIM THEY DIDNT GIVE ME AN OTD PRICE, BUT ITS CLEAR THEY DID.
Also, what do you want, the emails you listed were a little confusing to me. Is it the Colorado or the Cobalt that you want? COBALT
"do i push forward with my complaints that this is bait and switch? "
Aside from that being a tall order to prove imo, Why? $1300 IS WHY..
Go to another dealer if you're not happy. Thats the easiest thing to do. BUT I WOULD LIKE THE DEAL THAT WAS OFFERED....ITS A $$$$ THING. scott
I ask "is it otd?" they reply "Yes". Last email says it wasn't OTD. Emails show otherwise. I just want the price that was offered.
bobbi@ to me More options Jun 2
Dear Scott,
I never told you that was the out the door price. I gave you the selling price before rebate or fee's. That was not an out the door price. I can not negociate anymore on the price for that Cobalt. It is $14,330.04 out the door as of today.
Respectfully ,
Bobbi ------------------------------------------------------------- so it looks like i saved $1K by waiting?
------------------------------------------------------------------ On 6/1/05, bobbi > > Yes, $13,510 before incentives. > > > > Respectfully , > > Bobbi > > Assistant Manager Internet Dept.
> - Hide quoted text - > >------------------------------------------------ > > -- Original Message -- > i heard it was $500. > > is it 13,510 OTD without incentives? lemme know....... > >------------------------------------------------------------- >-@you-: > > > > > > Dear Scott, > > > > your looking at $13,510 before the incentives. We are still waiting to > find > > out what the cash rebates will be for June. > > > > Respectfully , > > > > Bobbi - > > > > Assistant Manager Internet Dept.
Ok - not sure what you are looking for us to tell you.
I already said taxes and fees can be different things. So if Bobbi quoted you an OTD price including fees but not taxes, then there is your $1300+ difference.
Additionally, you asked Bobbi if the price is "$13510 OTD without incentives". Aside from the fact that you are contracdicting your own definition of OTD (in other words, incentives need to be taken into account, so there is no OTD yet), Bobbi responded 'Yes, $13,510 before incentives'.
So, Bobbi probably did not read the OTD, and in her response DID NOT QUOTE OTD. Or, even if Bobbi read OTD, she left it out of her response. To me, the Yes does not mean anything.
Back to my original point, what do you want us to say???
This month, the price of the car is the same at every Chevy dealer. Assuming you have no trade-in, why do you think you are entitled to an additional $1300+ discount vs. everyone else - even if it is due to an honest (or shrewd move) error on Bobbi's part?
Just go to another Chevy dealer, and pay the exact same price you are going to pay Bobbi - and move on with the transaction.
regardless of the $1300 fees or whatever. I, too, want the best deal possible when I buy, but you've spent time and energy totalling more than the $1300 trying to change something that's not gonna change.
Plus, it's a GM, give 'em a few more months and they'll be rebating them even more to get rid of them.
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If the price they are now quoting is acceptable, just ask for the price and all fees and taxes to be itemized so that you can see what the $1,300 difference is. If it is not, go elsewhere.
One thing has become clear to me: the incomprehensible upside-down emails were part of the problem. People write to dealers in the overly abbreviated i-speak from chat rooms, with no capitalization and limited punctuation, and expect to conduct coherent business. It won't happen. Try actually talking to the dealer, and ask for an itemized price, and that should clear it up.
This deal is becomming tedious, and I find myself in agreement with bobst, which scares me...
i agree with alfox here - if you don't like the deal, walk. if you expect to conduct business - use proper punctuation and capitalization. if they can't give you why the price is $1300 different, walk. chances are they lowballed you to get you in, and now that you are there, they try to get you with a different price. perhaps you just misunderstood (sometimes emails CAN get confusing!)
i have a feeling the 1300 is taxes - and taxes arent counted as fees - they also arent negotiable (state gets them, not the dealer)
ask them to itemize the out the door price - and if you don't like it, walk. going to small claims court or calling GM is not going to do anything for you. first off, its way too much hassle (and you'll probably end up paying more for a lawyer than the $1300 difference you are fighting for) and like someone mentioned before, GM doesnt give a poop about what dealers do (dealers are independently owned, and GM already has their money for the cars)
I would not mind buying for asking price (whether it is MSRP or "weekend sale") if everybody else was paying it at this very moment. Like say in SEARS, or JC Penney. Knowing the real price upfront, I could concentrate on the product itself and choose the one I want. I can even see Walmarts, SEARS, and say "upscale" stores in auto world fo same products. Want a leather couch in customer launch: go to JOE X. You pay $500 more, but boy are these girls nice or what? Don't care? Go to Jimmy Y: toilets are stinky, but you will save! Moreover, everybody pays the same!
It is confusing enough to comapare all the trim levels and equipment on say 2-3 different cars. If I don't even know how much I am going to pay for it, it gets really bad.
Would not it be refreshing and time saving if we could all agree on some basic principles to follow? I guess it is too much to ask. They want a buck (and they want it now), we want a better deal than our neighbor. We all want to be winners, but as a result we all end up losing. At least time, sometimes much more...
I especially can see it in Japanese cars, where low margins and high volume expectation create environment that after every visit I need a long shower. Domestics aren't much better, but satisfaction surveys show consistently Nissan and Toyota purchasing experience as the very bottom. No wonder: superior product in high demand, low base margins = obnoxious and cheating sales practices. In domestics, the play room is larger (incentives) thus more room to be nice and still make it.
... **One thing has become clear to me: the incomprehensible upside-down emails were part of the problem. People write to dealers in the overly abbreviated i-speak from chat rooms, with no capitalization and limited punctuation, and expect to conduct coherent business. **
Bingo .............!
I've probably been in 100 dealerships from Pompano to Pismo Beach .. and the one thing that I can say that stays current, is the inability to translate the emails that come into the different stores ...
1.) Call it i-speak, no speak, some speak "whatever" .. most dealers can't translate them and not only can they "not" translate them, they find them veeery frustrating and they also find the emails downright insulating ... who the heck is going to spend $15,000 or even $75,000 and they email like Morris the cat ..??
2.) OTD - (Out the Door) means nada, zip, less than -0- to a dealer ... taxes, like pay-offs are the responsibility of the buyers, all the dealers can and will do is collect and pay them, so it becomes a "cost" to the buyer .. besides, they don't know (or care) where the buyer is going to register the new vehicle, and even that can all change in 2 seconds because every state and county is different, that's the reason why most dealers won't quote price with taxes ..... in my area we pay 7.5% and the county 3 doors away is 8.25% - what's that have to do with the dealer ..? it's a tax thing, it's a you thing .... I just sold 3 vehicles to a guy that lives in Ohio, one vehicle will be in one state and the other 2 will be in another, but the tax is based on a Rita/county thing up north .... when he came down to pick-up the vehicles, he wanted me to eat the 1.5% tax difference on $108,000 ($1,620) .. and I will tell you what I told him: "I don't do taxes, you do taxes - I only collect them" -- "I gave you my best price, plus I explained the paper and title work = $49 per vehicle, anything after that is between you and the tax man - period" ....
What "Irks" me, is that most buyers (not all) now think the dealer can just "eat" the taxes and make them dissapear - they can't .... the reason why this subject drones on and on around Edmunds, is because "most buyers" are trying to hit a target payment, not a target price ..... find the vehicle you like, get your best price and then figure what your taxes are going to be ... dealers only sell cars, they're not magicians .......
3.) *Assistant Manager Internet Dept* ... another "urban legend" .. for whatever reason, all of these info sources "think" and make other readers believe that this is some kind of "person of power" wearing a $900 Armani suit, $250 Ferragamo shoes and they wave a wand and all of a sudden they can sell a vehicle for $500 under cost when the other sales staff walk ideally around and can't .... the reality is nowadays, most of these guys are on the bottom of the totum pole and they have to get any prices from their managers, as do the others ...
The internet is a wonderful thing, but when it comes to buying something of great importance and value you need to be there, you need to be looking and feeling and touching the paperwork .... a friend of mine bought a house a few months back and we got into a discussion about it last night and he complained, if he he would have known the taxes would have cost him $500 a month and his closing costs were $8,000 he would have negotiated a better deal ------ where was he 3 months ago, on Jupiter.???
The world is tough enough even without sleaze in the car dealerships. We don't need to make it tougher than it has to be. My basic sense decency gets violated every time I read or hear that if you are say minority single mother you get taken for thousands, but if you are middle aged professional white (Anglo-Saxon) male, they don't even try some things (I am somewhat in the middle: white, male, not so middle aged, not so much Anglo-Saxon, so you can see my experiences). I consider myself well adjusted (or well enough) to preserve my integrity and still not get taken. It took me two cars to buy before I figured it out, third was on near invoice with promotional financing and decent trade.
My point is that my life is interesting enough without all those addictional stimulae from having to counter all the dirty tricks and cheats. I don't need to beat the system to feel fullfilled and I am sure most of us would rather spend those hours with their kids or on their bike, or even watching TV, than sitting in a sweaty dealership and praying they won't try to pull another crap warranty/coating/insurance/dealer's boat payment fee on us.
I just thought we all could all save some time ourselves and spend it in more interesting and meaningful way. However, as long as there will be "bobbsts" getting kicks from whatever side (dealer's or customer's) I will have to play the game, too. So be it.
when i quote prices on email, i quote sale price of vehicle then say "plus tax, registration and dealer conveyance fee" taxes are different in every state, and registration can change pending a transfer, new plates, lien on the vehicle, etc. once you mention to someone that your $500 below invoice sale price works out to be $32567 out the door, they want to negotiate to $32000 even to make the deal. sorry - the governor wants her sales tax, and if you want to pay only $32000, you can go down to the state capitol building and take it up with her.
if you don't want to play games, pay the sticker price and enjoy! the sticker price isnt a bloated value - its just that people have learned what WE pay for a vehicle, and want to haggle down to that price, or below!
what other business do you know their cost and fight to get there?
so, we have to do our best to make money on our end, and if dealers resort to selling every product under the sun, its only to try to make money (isnt that the point of business anyways?)
anyways, i know i'll get a whole bunch of people getting on my case because i am taking up the other side - and i dont agree with sketchy sales tactics, believe me! but a business is here to make money - and if we cant make it on the cars (since people want to pay below invoice) we'll try to make it elsewhere...
i guess im playing devil's advocate here...you can't always have your cake and eat it too i guess!
as far as no haggle pricing - it wont work - people WANT to haggle now! those dealers who tried no haggle pricing have since abandoned it, because some other dealer would beat their "no haggle" price, and people just shop everyone!
sorry it has to be that way - i wish it were easier and more pleasant for everyone (being on the other side of the desk and all...) but it's far beyond your control or mine i guess!
People somehow feel empowered by going through the Internet Department and I'll never understand that. If I had received an e-mail written like the one that poster sent, it would have gone into the trash.
People just make it SO HARD on themselves by trying to outsmart everyone else.
And you are dead on with your OTD offers. This seems to be increasing.
" OK, I'll buy the used car you have on sale for 16,995 but I want to pay 16,000 OTD!
" So, you are offering 14,600 for my 17,000 car that's already been reduced by 1500.00?"
" Oh, no...I want to pay you 16,000...out the door!"
Here in Colorado, the sales tax rate you pay is wholly dependant upon where you live. There are state, county and city imposed sales tax, so the rate varies quite a bit. Currently, my town is set at 7.5% .. other parts of metro Denver range from just under 7% to about 8.5%.
Registration is the same way .. each county in the state manages it's own auto registration. If you have a trade it, you can apply the pro-rated portion of the 'old' registration against the 'new' registration. Registration is composed of the actual reg fee plus the personal tax levied against the assessed value of the car. This is on a sliding scale and starts at something like 2% for year 1, 1.8% for year 2, etc. So, your $20K car will cost you $400 + the actual reg fees, which also vary by county. Where I live, I have to pay extra for my registration due to the toll road that was built a number of years ago.
It would be difficult for any auto dealer to provide an 'out the door' price, based on these conditions. The best one could hope for is a bottom line sales price, which the buyer could use in negotiations. Sales tax is applied to the transaction at the dealer, after determining where you live. Reigistration is handled strictly by the buyer; the dealer is not involved in any way, shape or form.
OTD is a defense from those sneaky charges (AAA, BBB, CCC, DDD). If you say in your ad "YOU PAY $14998", but I see my checkbook losing $17450 (you know: tax, title, registration, acquisition, car wash, boat payment, allotment, storage, and fabric protection on manager's couch), the only way to defend is "Give me OTD, so I can compare". Whether ofering $15K OTD for $17K+tax car is reasonable, it is an entirely different discussion.
Sit down with your salesman, say, I have an appointment at 3:30, we are going to have to finish before then to make this deal. If it needs to take longer, we'll have to continue on a different day. Then take out a piece of paper and ask, "What are the fees your dealership charges?" Write them down under a heading: "Dealership fees".
Then make another heading, "Tax, title and license" with the +8.5% or whatever that stuff is going to be.
Only now should you make your offer, and when you do, write it down on the sheet, take out a calculator and figure out the total for everything. You could take a laptop and a spreadsheet, but that makes it fast. You want to make it slow, so the salesman knows every number he throws out is going to cost him time.
When he makes his counter offer, work out the total.
If he tries to charge you extra at any point, then just say, "I'm not going to pay anything you didn't disclose up front."
Just say no to anything else, and truly walk if time runs out.
If you come to an agreement, make sure the final contract has exactly your numbers on it. Or that you understand in great detail any discrepancies. If you don't, then you need to find a different car or a different dealership.
If you don't want to get taken, you need to be at a dealership you trust, or you need to do your work. That's the way of life, not just the car business.
well it isnt much of a defense if everyone has a different definition of OTD. you can ask them for what the total price would be if i were to write a check for everything today - that, to me, would come across as they want to know EVERYTHING on the car...
again, everyone and every dealer does things different. but when people start negotiating the OTD price - have a nice day (with a nice big smile as kind as can be!)
being an internet manager, i hand things away, so when i am asked for an OTD price, then they try to negotiate that, i tell them "this is it - you wanna negotiate tax? see governor rell"
nothing else i can do! as much as you all hate to hear it...we are a business and we're here to make money - no crime in that! are some untrustworthy? yes - but there are some of us who work with integrity, and i like to think that both my dealership and myself are one of those dealers.
Ok - not sure what you are looking for us to tell you. >>>>something like " yeah, they screwed up, they should make it up to you somehow....'" .
So, Bobbi probably did not read the OTD, and in her response DID NOT QUOTE OTD. Or, even if Bobbi read OTD, she left it out of her response. To me, the Yes does not mean anything. >>>>but to me it means "yes, OTD" Is it my fault she did not "read" OTD? or that she left it out of her response? (just looking for support here)
Back to my original point, what do you want us to say??? >>>" yeah, they messed up, but you cant do anything, use it as a learning experience"
This month, the price of the car is the same at every Chevy dealer. Assuming you have no trade-in, why do you think you are entitled to an additional $1300+ discount vs. everyone else - even if it is due to an honest (or shrewd move) error on Bobbi's part?>>>> Exactly, i expect it because it was offered to me, be it "honest" or "shrewd" error.
Just go to another Chevy dealer, and pay the exact same price you are going to pay Bobbi - and move on with the transaction.>>>>>Thats kinda blowing off the point of how they treat their customers.
Plus, it's a GM, give 'em a few more months and they'll be rebating them even more to get rid of them.>>>>>>yeah, the new deal is worse than i woulda got last month.
As I am sure you realized before posting, the car seller community always has issues when potential customers want a straight forward answer to the question "How much does this cost?" I have been reading this forum for years and the reaction to posts like yours is predictable. Unlike most other consumer products that are for sale, there are apparently overwhelming impediments faced by the car selling fraternity when asked to give a potential customer "the price". After 40 years of buying cars, I have learned the following: Don't go price shopping until you know exactly what you want to buy and can actually afford it. Be respectful of the sales staffs' time, they are trying to make a living. Don't position yourself in the posture of a "victim", there are lots of cars and dealers out there. Above all, don't believe all of the nonsense stories about the "guy" who got the '06 super whammer for $5000 under dealer cost. I too am somewhat distressed that certain sectors of the buying public are vulnerable to abuses when purchasing from some dealers. Possibly,they should have paid attention in math class.
One thing has become clear to me: the incomprehensible upside-down emails were part of the problem.>>>> actually, most email is like that, isnt it? the reply on top and the previouse comments below? but, i understand your point. and i think an" internet manager" should be used to these things....
People write to dealers in the overly abbreviated i-speak from chat rooms, with no capitalization and limited punctuation, and expect to conduct coherent business. It won't happen. Try actually talking to the dealer, and ask for an itemized price, and that should clear it up.>>>>>again, i understand, but would think the "internet" person should understand the lingo, or ask for clarification. she is the one who used the term Out The Door first.
This deal is becomming tedious, and I find myself in agreement with bobst, which scares me... >>> agree on both points!!!!!
communicate! When you ask for an OTD price, say what you mean, as in "your price including all costs and fees, not including tax and licensing fees", or "OTD price to me, including all dealership and licensing fees and applicable taxes." OTD by itself can mean one thing to one person, something else to another. Don't assume she didn't read it or is trying to handle you for more money. Just ask for an itemized list of their price.
Words mean things - you have to say them to be understood, and try to understand what they say. Most email IS like that... among friends. It most decidedly is NOT like that in the business world. If you want to do business with business people, treat them as such rather than as a friend in a chat room. This is real life.
i agree with alfox here - if you don't like the deal, walk. if you expect to conduct business - use proper punctuation and capitalization>>>>>>>Understood, useing the internet as a faster , easier way to shop, guess i got carried away. but still, i think she understood my emails, or shoulda asked for clareification.
if they can't give you why the price is $1300 different, walk. chances are they lowballed you to get you in, and now that you are there, they try to get you with a different price.>>>>>>>>Isnt this the main point? BAIT and SWITCH???
I've probably been in 100 dealerships from Pompano to Pismo Beach .. and the one thing that I can say that stays current, is the inability to translate the emails that come into the different stores ... >>>>>>I guess I am wrong to assume that if a dealer is hi-tech enuff to have an "internet" sales dept. that they would staff it with capable people? or that they could reply asking for clareification? i can adjust my typing to what ever level they need to be understood. I understand it would better for my next deal to be more precise, but if you see the problem in 100 stores, its not just me.......the dealers need to adapt!
1.) Call it i-speak, no speak, some speak "whatever" .. most dealers can't translate them and not only can they "not" translate them, they find them veeery frustrating and they also find the emails downright insulating ... who the heck is going to spend $15,000 or even $75,000 and they email like Morris the cat ..?? SEE LAST SENTENCE ABOVE........
2.) OTD - (Out the Door) means nada, zip, less than -0- to a dealer ... taxes, like pay-offs are the responsibility of the buyers, all the dealers can and will do is collect and pay them, so it becomes a "cost" to the buyer .. besides, they don't know (or care) where the buyer is going to register the new vehicle, and even that can all change in 2 seconds because every state and county is different, that's the reason why most dealers won't quote price with taxes ..... in my area we pay 7.5% and the county 3 doors away is 8.25% - what's that have to do with the dealer ..? it's a tax thing, it's a you thing .... I just sold 3 vehicles to a guy that lives in Ohio, one vehicle will be in one state and the other 2 will be in another, but the tax is based on a Rita/county thing up north .... when he came down to pick-up the vehicles, he wanted me to eat the 1.5% tax difference on $108,000 ($1,620) .. and I will tell you what I told him: "I don't do taxes, you do taxes - I only collect them" -- "I gave you my best price, plus I explained the paper and title work = $49 per vehicle, anything after that is between you and the tax man - period" ....>>>>>then they shouldnt give me an OTD price, which they did.
3.) *Assistant Manager Internet Dept* ... another "urban legend" ..>>>>>I guess i would hafta agree here
Comments
However some of the top sales guys dont even know the difference between the models... funny isn't it?
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
i know of a few other Honda owners who have had major difficulties with the specific dealership that I mentioned placed the AD that wouldn't be honored, and who employed the salesman that harrassed me and my wife. i can't say if it was a general strategy they were using to maximize profits or not. but they are very high volume - so a lot of people purchase from them.
when i asked the salesman to let me have one of the pre-bumped cars right off the transport, he said essentially "no, we are in business to make profit...i can't sell that vehicle to you". so maybe that was a piece of honesty he conceeded when he knew we weren't going anywhere under any condition. but it took several days to get there.
if they are high volume (they had perhaps 4 or 5 at the street and like 70 or more in the back), you'd think they were doing something "right". i guess it depends on your perspective (purchaser or seller). sure they deserve to make a profit, but bobst - to your point, every potential buyer showing respect and preparedness deserves courtesy, professionalism a fair price and a positive purchase experience.
i left off the fact that we had contacted two other dealerships (that didn't have LX trim ODYs on the lot - at the time we were purchasing, most every metro ATL dealership was moving EX or EX-L trim - almost exclusively) to obtain one from another dealership. both told us essentially, they could not guarentee the vehicle would arrive at their dealership in a pre-bumped condition, and that we would have to pay "dealer cost+labor for installation" for each dealer-installed accessory. another piece of honesty, but a cautionary red flag for my wife and I.
i'm sure my story is not that unique.
as a purchaser, you have to be prepared, and if you're dealing with someone you know that isn't holding his part of the transaction up, there is no real deal, it's time to move along.
from the first moment i contacted the dealership we did purchase from, we knew we were in for a great experience...the type of experience i'd wish on everyone.
This was after about 30 emails, I said I was ready to buy. Thats when they changed the price. Any more thoughts? How can I get ahold of a GM rep? scott
>> bobbi@
to me
More options Jun 1
Dear Scott,
Yes by waiting you have saved.
The below Colorado we can offer for $20,496.12 out the door.
Respectfully ,
Bobbi
Assistant Manager Internet Dept.
2005 Chevrolet Colorado Ext CAb 2WD
-------------------------------------------------------------------
-- Original Message --
so it looks like i saved $1K by waiting?
just for the heck of it, since the colorado has $2k incentive, can
you tell me what an extended cab 2x4 base model with a/c and auto
will cost OTD ? thanks, scott
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, $13,510 before incentives.
Respectfully ,
Bobbi
Assistant Manager Internet Dept.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- Original Message --
i heard it was $500.
is it 13,510 OTD without incentives? lemme know.......
-------------------------------------------------------------------
- Hide quoted text -
On 6/1/05, bobbi
>
>
> Dear Scott,
>
> your looking at $13,510 before the incentives. We are still waiting to find
> out what the cash rebates will be for June.
>
> Respectfully ,
>
> Bobb
>
> Assistant Manager Internet Dept.
>
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------
> -- Original Message --
> how does that change my price? scott
>--------------------------------------------------------------
> On 6/1/05, bobbi@:
> >
> >
> > Dear Scott,
> >
> > we just got confirmation on this and yes it is true. So when are you
> coming
> > in to get your new Cobalt?
> >
> > Respectfully ,
> >
> > Bobb
> >
> >-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -- Original Message --
> > hey, lemme know if this is true........scott
> >
> > DETROIT (Reuters) - General Motors Corp. (GM.N: Quote, Profile,
> > Research) , suffering from a protracted slump in its U.S. auto sales,
> > will announce on Wednesday that the same vehicle discounts available
> > to its employees will now be offered to the general public, dealers
> > said.
> >
30 emails??? no wonder there was a problem.
Out the door can mean a couple of things. To some people, it means final price including all fees, charges, taxes, rebates, etc.
To this dealer/salesman, it might mean 'out his door'. In other words - this is the GM Employee price + the $75 processing fee - Rebate + tax on rebate. State taxes are additional - you can pay them yourself.
As far as I read, you did not clearly define 'out the door' - hence the confusion.
The price for the same car should be the same regardless of dealer. I don't think the price changed - I think your definition of OTD was different than the dealers.
>> bobbi@
to me
More options May 30
Dear Scott,
good afternoon. Out the door with all the fee's is $14047.54. Do you want to come in and do the paperwork on this car?
Respectfully ,
Bobb
Assistant Manager Internet Dept.
>>bobbi@
to me
More options May 30
Dear Scott,
good afternoon. Out the door with all the fee's is $14047.54. Do you want to come in and do the paperwork on this car?
Respectfully ,
Bob
Assistant Manager Internet Dept.
bobbi@yourchevy.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- Original Message --
$12,710 for the two door? ( see below) what do the fee's add
up to? scott
>>
VIN / Order # Event Code MSRP
1G1AK12F657547822 5000 Vehicle delivered to dealer $15,040
Color1: 95U Ultra Silver Metallic Primary Color
Color2: N/A
Trim: 14B Gray Cloth Trim
Package: 1SA 1SA Option Package
Engine: L61 ENGINE GAS, 4 CYL, 2.2L, MFI, ALUM, DOHC
Trans: MX0 Transmission, 4 Speed Automatic
Other: 1SZ DISCOUNT OPTION PACKAGE
PG1 WHEEL 15 X 6, STEEL
QTU TIRE ALL P195/60R15-87S BW R/PE TL AL2
SLM Stock Order Identifier
U1C RADIO AM/FM STEREO, SEEK/SCAN, CD, CLOCK, ETR
VK3 LICENSE PLATE FRONT FRT MOUNTING PKG
YF5 California Emissions
- Show quoted text -
---------------------------------------------
- Hide quoted text -
On 5/30/05, bobbi
>
> Dear Scott,
> that is a great price. If that does not work out our price would be
> $12,710. But you need to do this before we lose the bonus cash from the
> factory. This price is including the rebate but before fee's. Please keep
> me posted.
>
> Respectfully ,
>
> Bobb
In FL there is a $7 or so tire fee. There is a $75 processing fee for the GM Employee price deal.
There is a 7% tax on the purchase price.
To me, these are two different things.
Sorry, but I think this is a simple case of miscommunication.
(i kinda like the idea of lifetime supply of tube socks though!) ;-)
-thene
If a sales person gives you an OTD price on a car with certain specific options, don't believe it until you see the car in the flesh and see the bill of sale with their OTD quote on the bottom line.
If you think a sales person lied to you or deceived you in any other way, don't get upset. If the car is the one you want, then make your offer and see if they accept.
You know, I don't think I have used that phrase "car in the flesh" before. Maybe I was thinking about that commercial where a seemingly intelligent young blonde lady slithers over a car while eating a hamburger.
However, his advice "If the car is the one you want, then make your offer and see if they accept." is correct, so I'll tell you that too so you can believe it from me rather than from him.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
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being one from the profession that is the least trusted (even below lawyers!) in the world, i get very upset when people just assume that i will be the same as the others (and hopefully those of you who have been around here a while can see that i try hard not to be!)
yes, the profession in general has a reputation, but if you go in thinking that we're all the same, and we're all gonna steal every penny out of your pocket, you're just looking to have a bad buying experience.
however, if you go in with a pleasant and positive attitude, you will have a great experience - if you do get a salesperson you don't like, just walk away. there are plenty of good ones out there that WILL treat you with respect! hopefully you reward those who do their best to make you happy, and your experience pleasant!
just my .02
-thene
Don't count on any numbers being what you think they are, until you see the final contract..
No offense to any of the dealers here... but, generally, I'd say 90% of my purchases had numbers that changed once we hit the finance office..
So, keep a sharp eye out, and your calculator handy..
regards,
kyfdx
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
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Edmunds Moderator
I agree with this. When I was fresh out of college and got a "big boy" job I went to buy my first car on my own. The mistake I made on that trip was that I didn't prearrange financing before I got to the dealer. I had excellent credit, and a large down payment (33%) to put towards the new car, and planned on using dealer financing for the rest. However, the one smart thing I did was to take my financial calculator with me. The salesman didn't know I had the calculator, and told me that I qualified for 5.9% (this was several years ago), and that X dollars financed for 48 months at 5.9% was $XXX per month. Well, the figure sounded high, and I checked it on my calculator, and the figure was about $75 / month higher than what it should have been. I pointed it out ot him, and after haggling, the payment finally came down to what it should have been at 5.9% for 48 months.
My point to all of this rambling is that I don't have a problem with a dealer padding an interest rate. If you are depending on their financing, and they see they can get you 5.5%, but tell you 5.9% (and you are comfortable with 5.9%) - I don't have a problem with that. After all, they are doing me a service by providing me the financing. However, my problem is when the dealer flat out lies about X dollars at X% for X months being way higher than what it mathematically is.
Nothing counts unless you bought a car, and the deal isn't the same one that you signed.. Almost every deal will end up differently than what you are quoted..
As another poster noted.. It may be an issue of semantics.. your definition of OTD vs. the dealer's definition..
If you think they are sleazy, vote with your feet.. No point in getting GM or the owner involved... you haven't even agreed on a price.. and e-mail doesn't count.
regards,
kyfdx
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
Also, what do you want, the emails you listed were a little confusing to me. Is it the Colorado or the Cobalt that you want?
"do i push forward with my complaints that this is bait and switch? "
Aside from that being a tall order to prove imo, Why?
Go to another dealer if you're not happy. Thats the easiest thing to do.
If you HAVE bought the car, you signed a contract and whatever you signed rules. In that case you have no claim either since you presumably read whatever you signed. Surely you didn't sign a contract for more than the agreed amount without reading and understanding it first. Have you? If so, you just bought it!
Did you ask what the difference was? That is the next logical step. Simply ask why it is more, and listen to the answer with an open mind.
GM has no interest in the deal. They do not own dealerships and cannot get involved. They will not work with you, nor should they.
If you believe you are being handled improperly complaining to the ownership might help, but you are better off just talking to the SM to find out what their final deal is, and then simply accepting it or walking. YOU drive the deal, not the salesperson. You can walk - he/she cannot.
Nothing counts unless you bought a car, and the deal isn't the same one that you signed.. Almost every deal will end up differently than what you are quoted.. OVER $1300 DIFFERNT?
As another poster noted.. It may be an issue of semantics.. your definition of OTD vs. the dealer's definition..>>>>I UNDERSTAND THIS, BUT I THINK THE EMAILS SHOW OTD WAS WITH ALL FEES.......UNLESS YOU ARE SAYING TAXES ARENT FEES, IN THAT CASE I GUESS THEY ARE CHARGING $1300 IN FEES? FOR WHAT?
If you think they are sleazy, vote with your feet.. No point in getting GM or the owner involved... you haven't even agreed on a price.. and e-mail doesn't count. THEN WHY EMAIL ME A PRICE IF IT DOESNT "COUNT'? I ACCEPTED THE PRICE OFFERED, THEN THEY BACKED OUT. GM AND THE OWNER NEED TO KNOW OF SHADY TACTICS, OR THEY WILL CONTINUE TO HAVE DISSATIFIED CUSTOMERS. scott
Also, what do you want, the emails you listed were a little confusing to me. Is it the Colorado or the Cobalt that you want? COBALT
"do i push forward with my complaints that this is bait and switch? "
Aside from that being a tall order to prove imo, Why? $1300 IS WHY..
Go to another dealer if you're not happy. Thats the easiest thing to do. BUT I WOULD LIKE THE DEAL THAT WAS OFFERED....ITS A $$$$ THING. scott
The answer is NO.
I'm sorry I didn't make that more clear in my earlier posting.
Like others of us have said: If you want to buy a car, then compute the price you are willing to pay and see if a dealer will accept it.
bobbi@
to me
More options Jun 2
Dear Scott,
I never told you that was the out the door price. I gave you the selling price before rebate or fee's. That was not an out the door price. I can not negociate anymore on the price for that Cobalt. It is $14,330.04 out the door as of today.
Respectfully ,
Bobbi
-------------------------------------------------------------
so it looks like i saved $1K by waiting?
------------------------------------------------------------------
On 6/1/05, bobbi
>
> Yes, $13,510 before incentives.
>
>
>
> Respectfully ,
>
> Bobbi
>
> Assistant Manager Internet Dept.
>
- Hide quoted text -
>
>------------------------------------------------
>
> -- Original Message --
> i heard it was $500.
>
> is it 13,510 OTD without incentives? lemme know.......
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>-@you-:
> >
> >
> > Dear Scott,
> >
> > your looking at $13,510 before the incentives. We are still waiting to
> find
> > out what the cash rebates will be for June.
> >
> > Respectfully ,
> >
> > Bobbi -
> >
> > Assistant Manager Internet Dept.
Well, Scottay, when you grow up you will realize that what you want ain't necessarily what you're gonna get.
I already said taxes and fees can be different things. So if Bobbi quoted you an OTD price including fees but not taxes, then there is your $1300+ difference.
Additionally, you asked Bobbi if the price is "$13510 OTD without incentives". Aside from the fact that you are contracdicting your own definition of OTD (in other words, incentives need to be taken into account, so there is no OTD yet), Bobbi responded 'Yes, $13,510 before incentives'.
So, Bobbi probably did not read the OTD, and in her response DID NOT QUOTE OTD. Or, even if Bobbi read OTD, she left it out of her response. To me, the Yes does not mean anything.
Back to my original point, what do you want us to say???
This month, the price of the car is the same at every Chevy dealer. Assuming you have no trade-in, why do you think you are entitled to an additional $1300+ discount vs. everyone else - even if it is due to an honest (or shrewd move) error on Bobbi's part?
Just go to another Chevy dealer, and pay the exact same price you are going to pay Bobbi - and move on with the transaction.
Plus, it's a GM, give 'em a few more months and they'll be rebating them even more to get rid of them.
delange, "Any Questions for a Car Dealer?" #12007, 15 Jun 2005 1:56 pm
Since it's not a "dealer trick."
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One thing has become clear to me: the incomprehensible upside-down emails were part of the problem. People write to dealers in the overly abbreviated i-speak from chat rooms, with no capitalization and limited punctuation, and expect to conduct coherent business. It won't happen. Try actually talking to the dealer, and ask for an itemized price, and that should clear it up.
This deal is becomming tedious, and I find myself in agreement with bobst, which scares me...
i have a feeling the 1300 is taxes - and taxes arent counted as fees - they also arent negotiable (state gets them, not the dealer)
ask them to itemize the out the door price - and if you don't like it, walk. going to small claims court or calling GM is not going to do anything for you. first off, its way too much hassle (and you'll probably end up paying more for a lawyer than the $1300 difference you are fighting for) and like someone mentioned before, GM doesnt give a poop about what dealers do (dealers are independently owned, and GM already has their money for the cars)
good luck with whatever you do!
-thene
It is confusing enough to comapare all the trim levels and equipment on say 2-3 different cars. If I don't even know how much I am going to pay for it, it gets really bad.
Would not it be refreshing and time saving if we could all agree on some basic principles to follow? I guess it is too much to ask. They want a buck (and they want it now), we want a better deal than our neighbor. We all want to be winners, but as a result we all end up losing. At least time, sometimes much more...
I especially can see it in Japanese cars, where low margins and high volume expectation create environment that after every visit I need a long shower. Domestics aren't much better, but satisfaction surveys show consistently Nissan and Toyota purchasing experience as the very bottom. No wonder: superior product in high demand, low base margins = obnoxious and cheating sales practices. In domestics, the play room is larger (incentives) thus more room to be nice and still make it.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!
If life was that easy, it would be so boooring.
The world is a tough place. If you don't accept it and learn to adapt, it will grind you down to a nubbin.
Bingo .............!
I've probably been in 100 dealerships from Pompano to Pismo Beach .. and the one thing that I can say that stays current, is the inability to translate the emails that come into the different stores ...
1.) Call it i-speak, no speak, some speak "whatever" .. most dealers can't translate them and not only can they "not" translate them, they find them veeery frustrating and they also find the emails downright insulating ... who the heck is going to spend $15,000 or even $75,000 and they email like Morris the cat ..??
2.) OTD - (Out the Door) means nada, zip, less than -0- to a dealer ... taxes, like pay-offs are the responsibility of the buyers, all the dealers can and will do is collect and pay them, so it becomes a "cost" to the buyer .. besides, they don't know (or care) where the buyer is going to register the new vehicle, and even that can all change in 2 seconds because every state and county is different, that's the reason why most dealers won't quote price with taxes ..... in my area we pay 7.5% and the county 3 doors away is 8.25% - what's that have to do with the dealer ..? it's a tax thing, it's a you thing .... I just sold 3 vehicles to a guy that lives in Ohio, one vehicle will be in one state and the other 2 will be in another, but the tax is based on a Rita/county thing up north .... when he came down to pick-up the vehicles, he wanted me to eat the 1.5% tax difference on $108,000 ($1,620) .. and I will tell you what I told him: "I don't do taxes, you do taxes - I only collect them" -- "I gave you my best price, plus I explained the paper and title work = $49 per vehicle, anything after that is between you and the tax man - period" ....
What "Irks" me, is that most buyers (not all) now think the dealer can just "eat" the taxes and make them dissapear - they can't .... the reason why this subject drones on and on around Edmunds, is because "most buyers" are trying to hit a target payment, not a target price ..... find the vehicle you like, get your best price and then figure what your taxes are going to be ... dealers only sell cars, they're not magicians .......
3.) *Assistant Manager Internet Dept* ... another "urban legend" .. for whatever reason, all of these info sources "think" and make other readers believe that this is some kind of "person of power" wearing a $900 Armani suit, $250 Ferragamo shoes and they wave a wand and all of a sudden they can sell a vehicle for $500 under cost when the other sales staff walk ideally around and can't .... the reality is nowadays, most of these guys are on the bottom of the totum pole and they have to get any prices from their managers, as do the others ...
The internet is a wonderful thing, but when it comes to buying something of great importance and value you need to be there, you need to be looking and feeling and touching the paperwork .... a friend of mine bought a house a few months back and we got into a discussion about it last night and he complained, if he he would have known the taxes would have cost him $500 a month and his closing costs were $8,000 he would have negotiated a better deal ------ where was he 3 months ago, on Jupiter.???
Terry.
My point is that my life is interesting enough without all those addictional stimulae from having to counter all the dirty tricks and cheats. I don't need to beat the system to feel fullfilled and I am sure most of us would rather spend those hours with their kids or on their bike, or even watching TV, than sitting in a sweaty dealership and praying they won't try to pull another crap warranty/coating/insurance/dealer's boat payment fee on us.
I just thought we all could all save some time ourselves and spend it in more interesting and meaningful way. However, as long as there will be "bobbsts" getting kicks from whatever side (dealer's or customer's) I will have to play the game, too. So be it.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
when i quote prices on email, i quote sale price of vehicle then say "plus tax, registration and dealer conveyance fee" taxes are different in every state, and registration can change pending a transfer, new plates, lien on the vehicle, etc. once you mention to someone that your $500 below invoice sale price works out to be $32567 out the door, they want to negotiate to $32000 even to make the deal. sorry - the governor wants her sales tax, and if you want to pay only $32000, you can go down to the state capitol building and take it up with her.
abracadabra!
-thene :P
what other business do you know their cost and fight to get there?
so, we have to do our best to make money on our end, and if dealers resort to selling every product under the sun, its only to try to make money (isnt that the point of business anyways?)
anyways, i know i'll get a whole bunch of people getting on my case because i am taking up the other side - and i dont agree with sketchy sales tactics, believe me! but a business is here to make money - and if we cant make it on the cars (since people want to pay below invoice) we'll try to make it elsewhere...
i guess im playing devil's advocate here...you can't always have your cake and eat it too i guess!
as far as no haggle pricing - it wont work - people WANT to haggle now! those dealers who tried no haggle pricing have since abandoned it, because some other dealer would beat their "no haggle" price, and people just shop everyone!
sorry it has to be that way - i wish it were easier and more pleasant for everyone (being on the other side of the desk and all...) but it's far beyond your control or mine i guess!
-thene
An A+ for your post!
People somehow feel empowered by going through the Internet Department and I'll never understand that. If I had received an e-mail written like the one that poster sent, it would have gone into the trash.
People just make it SO HARD on themselves by trying to outsmart everyone else.
And you are dead on with your OTD offers. This seems to be increasing.
" OK, I'll buy the used car you have on sale for 16,995 but I want to pay 16,000 OTD!
" So, you are offering 14,600 for my 17,000 car that's already been reduced by 1500.00?"
" Oh, no...I want to pay you 16,000...out the door!"
:confuse:
Registration is the same way .. each county in the state manages it's own auto registration. If you have a trade it, you can apply the pro-rated portion of the 'old' registration against the 'new' registration. Registration is composed of the actual reg fee plus the personal tax levied against the assessed value of the car. This is on a sliding scale and starts at something like 2% for year 1, 1.8% for year 2, etc. So, your $20K car will cost you $400 + the actual reg fees, which also vary by county. Where I live, I have to pay extra for my registration due to the toll road that was built a number of years ago.
It would be difficult for any auto dealer to provide an 'out the door' price, based on these conditions. The best one could hope for is a bottom line sales price, which the buyer could use in negotiations. Sales tax is applied to the transaction at the dealer, after determining where you live. Reigistration is handled strictly by the buyer; the dealer is not involved in any way, shape or form.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Sit down with your salesman, say, I have an appointment at 3:30, we are going to have to finish before then to make this deal. If it needs to take longer, we'll have to continue on a different day. Then take out a piece of paper and ask, "What are the fees your dealership charges?" Write them down under a heading: "Dealership fees".
Then make another heading, "Tax, title and license" with the +8.5% or whatever that stuff is going to be.
Only now should you make your offer, and when you do, write it down on the sheet, take out a calculator and figure out the total for everything. You could take a laptop and a spreadsheet, but that makes it fast. You want to make it slow, so the salesman knows every number he throws out is going to cost him time.
When he makes his counter offer, work out the total.
If he tries to charge you extra at any point, then just say, "I'm not going to pay anything you didn't disclose up front."
Just say no to anything else, and truly walk if time runs out.
If you come to an agreement, make sure the final contract has exactly your numbers on it. Or that you understand in great detail any discrepancies. If you don't, then you need to find a different car or a different dealership.
If you don't want to get taken, you need to be at a dealership you trust, or you need to do your work. That's the way of life, not just the car business.
again, everyone and every dealer does things different. but when people start negotiating the OTD price - have a nice day (with a nice big smile as kind as can be!)
being an internet manager, i hand things away, so when i am asked for an OTD price, then they try to negotiate that, i tell them "this is it - you wanna negotiate tax? see governor rell"
nothing else i can do! as much as you all hate to hear it...we are a business and we're here to make money - no crime in that! are some untrustworthy? yes - but there are some of us who work with integrity, and i like to think that both my dealership and myself are one of those dealers.
my 2 cents
-thene
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So, Bobbi probably did not read the OTD, and in her response DID NOT QUOTE OTD. Or, even if Bobbi read OTD, she left it out of her response. To me, the Yes does not mean anything. >>>>but to me it means "yes, OTD" Is it my fault she did not "read" OTD? or that she left it out of her response? (just looking for support here)
Back to my original point, what do you want us to say??? >>>" yeah, they messed up, but you cant do anything, use it as a learning experience"
This month, the price of the car is the same at every Chevy dealer. Assuming you have no trade-in, why do you think you are entitled to an additional $1300+ discount vs. everyone else - even if it is due to an honest (or shrewd move) error on Bobbi's part?>>>> Exactly, i expect it because it was offered to me, be it "honest" or "shrewd" error.
Just go to another Chevy dealer, and pay the exact same price you are going to pay Bobbi - and move on with the transaction.>>>>>Thats kinda blowing off the point of how they treat their customers.
I too am somewhat distressed that certain sectors of the buying public are vulnerable to abuses when purchasing from some dealers. Possibly,they should have paid attention in math class.
People write to dealers in the overly abbreviated i-speak from chat rooms, with no capitalization and limited punctuation, and expect to conduct coherent business. It won't happen. Try actually talking to the dealer, and ask for an itemized price, and that should clear it up.>>>>>again, i understand, but would think the "internet" person should understand the lingo, or ask for clarification. she is the one who used the term Out The Door first.
This deal is becomming tedious, and I find myself in agreement with bobst, which scares me... >>> agree on both points!!!!!
Words mean things - you have to say them to be understood, and try to understand what they say. Most email IS like that... among friends. It most decidedly is NOT like that in the business world. If you want to do business with business people, treat them as such rather than as a friend in a chat room. This is real life.
if they can't give you why the price is $1300 different, walk. chances are they lowballed you to get you in, and now that you are there, they try to get you with a different price.>>>>>>>>Isnt this the main point? BAIT and SWITCH???
1.) Call it i-speak, no speak, some speak "whatever" .. most dealers can't translate them and not only can they "not" translate them, they find them veeery frustrating and they also find the emails downright insulating ... who the heck is going to spend $15,000 or even $75,000 and they email like Morris the cat ..?? SEE LAST SENTENCE ABOVE........
2.) OTD - (Out the Door) means nada, zip, less than -0- to a dealer ... taxes, like pay-offs are the responsibility of the buyers, all the dealers can and will do is collect and pay them, so it becomes a "cost" to the buyer .. besides, they don't know (or care) where the buyer is going to register the new vehicle, and even that can all change in 2 seconds because every state and county is different, that's the reason why most dealers won't quote price with taxes ..... in my area we pay 7.5% and the county 3 doors away is 8.25% - what's that have to do with the dealer ..? it's a tax thing, it's a you thing .... I just sold 3 vehicles to a guy that lives in Ohio, one vehicle will be in one state and the other 2 will be in another, but the tax is based on a Rita/county thing up north .... when he came down to pick-up the vehicles, he wanted me to eat the 1.5% tax difference on $108,000 ($1,620) .. and I will tell you what I told him: "I don't do taxes, you do taxes - I only collect them" -- "I gave you my best price, plus I explained the paper and title work = $49 per vehicle, anything after that is between you and the tax man - period" ....>>>>>then they shouldnt give me an OTD price, which they did.
3.) *Assistant Manager Internet Dept* ... another "urban legend" ..>>>>>I guess i would hafta agree here