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Here is my question? I did not torque it to any specification ( what should it be?), but I did tighten it pretty good ( 4 foot pipe X 250lbs on it with a 3/4" Breaker bar). How critical is the torque? Could the groan be caused by something else, Also it definitely gets more pronounced when I turn to the right.
I called the local NAPA thinking about replacing the CV/drive shaft, but they said I should look at the brakes and go back to the wheel bearings adn that the torques is very critical.
Your thoughts and suggestions are greatly appreciated
It's odd the bearing would go bad again unlessthe tightness damaged it. The groan could be tire treads giving a sound on tires that have worn unevenly. I had Michelin X-Ones on a car for several years and started to get a bearing sound from one of the two tires left (I had intentionally worn two faster than other two to replace and get good bite in snow-so older pair had 5 or so years of age). A mechanic in the scout troop said the rubber in tires hardens as it ages when I had him look at the crazing in the rubber treads to see if it was rot.
I got a sound on front and it was still there when the tire was on the rear. New Harmonys to replace the old pair and sound was gone.
I have also read in H-body discussions that a bearing the differential (transfer case I think they called it) part of the transmission can cause a noise. But it wouldn't have gone away with the first bearing replacement. Did your noise go away? That wuold eleminate tires and transfer case bearing.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
>back, but for those of you that have owned a PA from this
>time frame, or maybe have owned two+, what is your overall
>opinion of them?
>I presently have a 1998 Regal GS and thought I'd sound out
>folks on what they think about the other Super Charged car
>in Buick's lineup.
>I'm not in Buick's traditional demographic, 39, but
>appreciate their historical virtues
>(ride/reliability/balance of old and new technology).
>Anyway, if anyone is good enough to respond, I'm not asking
>you to type a manuscript, just what were/are the highlights
>or lowlights?
I really like my '97 PA Ultra, which was the first year of the final PA generation ('97-'05). Handles well (rolls a bit, but grip is good); acceleration is good for a car this size, especially off the line, though I'm sure it's not as quick as your Regal; brakes are very good; mileage is surprisingly good (low 20's in around town mixed driving, 35+ at 55-60 mph, 30 mpg at 70-75, 27 mpg overall across Alabama and Georgia with the cruise set on 80); quiet; comfortable (my wife loves the heated seats and dual zone climate controls); huge trunk; great sound system; keyless entry, etc.; and it's a Q-ship without being too stodgy looking.
BTW, I'm 36. Yes, it's possible for Gen-X'ers to like PA's...the little SUPERCHARGED badge on the trunk helps...I love it when I pull up to a stop light, and the kid in the Civic behind me jumps in the left lane because he thinks I'm going to be slow off the green...hehehe...
One of these days, I'll probably put some exhaust tips from an '03-'05 PA Ultra on it, and I did rig it so I could switch the DRL's off (they are brighter than the high-beams on many cars, aargh--instructions at http://www.lightsout.org), but other than that it's as I bought it. Interior is holding up VERY well, despite the two enthusiastic kids that it regularly transports.
FWIW, here's a Popular Mechanics review of the PA Ultra compared to some other full-size cars, from '98-ish. The PA Ultra rates pretty well:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/1270031.html?page=1
Performance figures, from page 8:
Buick Park Avenue Ultra
EPA mileage rating: 18/27
PM observed mileage during test: 20.8
0-60: 7.7 seconds
1/4 mile: 15.6 sec, 89.8 mph
Passing acceleration, 40-70 mph: 5.9 seconds
Braking 60-0: 131 feet
PM Slalom: 44.9 mph
Skidpad: 0.72 g (w/all-season tires, not bad)
Interior noise, idle: 52.8 dBA
Interior noise, full throttle: 77.8 dBA
Interior noise, 60 mph: 68.6 dBA
Mine doesn't have the center console, just a fold-down armrest with storage, and the way PM tells it, I'm not missing much.
Considering that you can get a nice latest-generation PA Ultra used for $5000 to $10,000, I'd say they're a good buy, and the used ones are often in excellent shape. I'd definitely get another one. The one thing I might look for that mine doesn't have is one with the optional heads-up display (I'm a gadget geek).
The only downside I see--they are expensive to have worked on, but mine has been pretty reliable, and considering the car now has 145,000 miles (IIRC) it's doing well. I did invest in a factory shop manual, but so far I have had the dealer change the SC belt and serpentine belt for me (requires removal of engine mount on this car, no fun), had a fuel line leak when I bought the car (seller paid for dealer to fix it), and I have replaced the front brake pads/rotors and changed the SC oil and plugs, minor stuff. It needs a set of rear shocks now (it's still on its original set), and I'll probably get those installed this week.
Also, the Ultra requires 93-octane fuel, or else performance and mileage suffer (that's probably true of all the supercharged 3.8's). But to me, the fuel requirement is well worth the increased performance over the normally aspirated 3800.
Oil consumption is 1/2 qt./5,000 miles running Mobil 1 10w/30 EP (15,000 rated oil between changes) and Mobil 1 2x filter.
Fuel consumption is around 25.8 long term, mostly highway miles running 75-80;
Recent work required:
>> Speedo Cluster PRNDL died, readout of gauges (oil pressure, etc. died); Fixed for $185 by Specmo of Madison Heights, MI, including new cover clear plastic, new power supply. I did the R&R myself. They have thousands of units in stock;
>> New Michelin MVX4 high economy tires, great ride, handling, smooth, roll like crazy, good fuel economy. These replaced identical tires removed, that had 110,000 miles on them, with a little tread left (3/32's");
>> Replaced original struts/rear shocks with Monroe sensatrac gas struts in front, Maxair shocks in rear; Tremendous improvement in ride and control- very close to Mercedes I have owned.
>> Installed all new rotors on brakes- performed by dealer with GM OEM parts- now extremely smooth, transforming the brakes and driving impression;
>> replaced Alternator at 157,000 with GM reman unit, although orig was performing well and had no problems. I was impressed that its bearings were still smooth!
This continues to be a great car and is solid even with high miles, like my prior Mercedes were. No rattles, smooth, still quiet, interior holding up well. Just tried Lucerne and Chrysler 300 and seats in both were not as good IMHO as my 2000 PA. I have the heads up display (HUD), which I really like, regardless of what the car mags weenies say. Also, I have the business console, which isn't the highest build quality, but which performs well- I like it! This car has 3 12v outlets up front- 1- the cig lighter, 1 at base of business console, and 1 inside the storage console between front seats.
Most common complaint I and others have is that the rear speaker for bass, is too loud and boomy for rear seat passengers.
I think this is one of the best cars GM ever made and it is the 6th Buick I have owned. GM never put the junk parts on the supercharged engine, like they did with the standard 3.8. They fixed the standard 3.8 in year 2000 (intake manifold). Also, the year 2000 has the "rolling code" garage opener. I have drived the latest Mercedes E class and they really feel like my PA.
I have hit two deer with Buicks, the latest one with this car and the deer came at the windshield, but did not break through. Thank God For Buicks! They are solid.
I will try to drive this car as long as I possible can- there are no new cars on the market that run as well or are more durable- yes, including Toyota, which is starting to have some quality issues. My 34 yoa daughter-in-law that thought she would hate this car, had to drive it on the freeway recently and was very surprised how well she liked it.."it doesn't feel like a great, big car".
So that is my Buick PS attaboy for the record.
Glad to hear there are other 30-somethings that appreciate what Buick had to offer in these cars. I'm really surprised at your hwy mileage, Ultra97...wow. I think I saw once a listing for the Regal GS that said its 0-60 times were in the 7.3 - 7.4 range, so the extra Ultra weight doesn't hurt it too much in the response time. And, an ultra is the perfect "toy" to have if you enjoy a bit of performance yet want to appear all practical and family-oriented at the same time...and sure does beat a mini-van
Buicks5...you posted this: Replaced original struts/rear shocks with Monroe sensatrac gas struts in front, Maxair shocks in rear; Tremendous improvement in ride and control- very close to Mercedes I have owned.
Not meaning to over-parse words, but did your ride end up smoother or stiffer? I'm guessing you mean stiffer/more controlled/not too stiff though.
I will now seriously put the PA on my Regal-replacement list when the time comes. Later model Regals are very hard to find, that is for sure.
Buicks may have a stodgy image with some, but people who care more about cars usually own and take care of them, making them wiser investments as used vehicles.
I'm not sure if this makes a difference, but I run full synthetic oil (Mobil 1), and I have read that for a given viscosity rating, synthetic oil flows a little more freely, and I run the tires at 35 psi on road trips. But the supercharged 3800 is surprisingly efficient when not on boost, and it also helps that the PA Ultra is geared pretty high; at 55 mph, you're turning less than 1500 rpm in 4th gear, and about 2100 rpm at 80 mph, which is probably the big reason for the highway mileage numbers. By comparison, the 4-cylinder Camry I used to own ('87) was turning around 3200 rpm at 80 mph.
For 97Ultra or anyone else reading: Is it best to change to synthetic at "an early age" or can a car with any # of miles safely make the switch?
Also, is it as simple as having a regular oil change your last visit and then switching to synthetic - no other steps needed?
A car with any number of miles can be switched over--it's just a matter of filling it up with synthetic instead of petroleum distillate oil the next time you change it. The only caveat is, if you have oil leaks around gaskets and such, they will leak get a bit worse with synthetic because synthetic flows more freely than regular oil and sludges less, so it's more likely to seep past a bad valve cover gasket or pan gasket.
My PA has 145K miles at the moment, and I'm getting ready to replace the valve cover gaskets for that reason; it doesn't leak much (maybe half a quart in 2000 miles), but it's enough to bug me. I bought a pair of GM gaskets from the dealer and just need to get around to swapping them out.
Any suggestions before I try again?
Hank
one looks not at the front wheels, but at the rear transaxle
housing. Check to see if the rear suspension bushings are not badly worn, that no part of the transaxle is bearing on the chassis, thus transmitting noise that sounds like it comes from the front end.
After checking all else, check to see if the rear suspension is greased and rear wheel bearings are in good condition, similar to front end.
Often it is easy to confuse front end noise with noise transmission from the rear of the vehicle. Any good transmittor can be any part of the suspension or exhaust that sets up a resonance in time with wheel motion or suspension movement.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/1270031.html
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/reader_rides/1270981.html
Important things to know:
They changed the body style in 1997. If you get one, I'd recommend a '97 or newer.
Mine is the Ultra (supercharged), and it's surprisingly quick for a big car (0-60 in 7.7 seconds or so). Yes, it's front wheel drive, transverse engine, iron block and heads (I think) but the transaxle case is aluminum. Transaxle is a 4-speed automatic, electronically controlled.
The above Popular Mechanics articles give you some pretty good info, I think.
ps Anyone in the market for a set of Goodyear Conquest with a lot of tread remaining????????? (I'll include the stock Buick rims for free) :P
I am very disappointed that a company with a name and previous reputation like Buick let a problem like this go un-addressed for a decade. This is apparently one more reason that Toyota is now the number one auto retailer in the world and will soon be the number one auto retailer in the US. Shame on Buick and GM for what was obviously a very poor management decision to let the "Buyer Beware" and for turning their back on the American public. :mad: :mad:
Let the readers of this forum take notice if you are thinking about a used Park Avenue. When I get mine paid off I will be turning to our foreign auto manufacturers. I have driven a Hyundai Sonata and plan to purchase one in about a year. I wish that I had gone with my gut feeling a few months ago and I would not have this problem today. :sick:
Now that I have vented, does anyone out there know of other solutions for the vibration issue????? What about stiffer shocks, or changing the springs?????????????
It would be nice if Buick would come clean, but I am sure that there are warranty claims still pending, so there is no way that they will admit to what the REAL flaw happens to be.
I probably can find the posts about vibrations in Camrys. I believe I posted for the owner to get the wheels and tires force-balanced as a check. It worked.
Now for your Park Ave if you are still reading and aren't on your way to the Toyota place... You bought Michelin tires which are usually more round under load and stay round longer than most others. GM used Michelins as replacements when they were fixing cars with this problem due to the high quality stiff frame on the Park Avenue which started with the sleek Riviera and Avalon of the early 90s.
I'm assuming your force-balancing is right on from the mail order company. Myself I'd find a local dealer of Buicks to run a force balance again after 5-10K miles. I'll bet your problem is the alignment. I have an 03 LeSabre which is a soft suspension version similar to the H body you have. It reacted to the Michelins that were on it new even after the first road force balancing. The alignment turned out to be somewhat off from the exact middle, the ideal setting, for the alignment. Many stores would have throw it on the alignment rack and said, "It's within specs. That'll be $89.95 please." My service manager started as an alignent guy. He did the check himself and found the rear toe-in was off. He carefully checked the Symmetry tires for signs of wear beforehand and found none.
The alignment helped lots. And the tires seemed to improve after 15K miles and must have broken in and gotten used to flexing or something.
Actually I think you bought a great 3800 motor with lots of torque that's geared through a good transmission for great driveability short of hotrodding that will still give 30+ mpg at interstate driving with 4 adults and AC running in summer and will give 22-24 around short trip driving.
The rims are chromed and the chrome deteriorates on the inner surfaces. The outer part and the the tire part are prepped before plating; the inner face is not prepped and the chrome adheres and then starts to break down. Usually the salt and other chemicals are going to affect the outer visible parts before the inner part is meaninfully deteriorated. I had wondered the same thing and found a poster in another group that knew the factual answer.
There is a tire discussion on Edmunds and capriracer may be able to tell you if I've got the wrong answer or not.
I hope I've been helpful. I think you bought a good car. The vibrations are from the quality stiff chassis and imperfections in the tires and that slight up and down vibration from imperfect tires move the light suspension parts made of alloys instead of heavy steel and the vibration transmits to the frame.
Things to check: there was a recall in LeSabres up to 03 to change taps holding the throttle body to the upper intake manifold for more even pressure and adding organic pellets to the DexCool for sealant. They had put them in originally and left the out with 00 to have better looking reserve tanks; but the seal slight seeps. Check to see if that recall is applicable to 03 Park Aves and has been done. Check to see if your DexCool has been flushed and replaced with DexCool since new. It should be done 2 years or 30K miles approx. It is not perfect as a coolant. But it's better than the green stuff. It is NOT a 5 year 150k mile coolant. My LeSabre will be changed this spring in my driveway again at 50K mile. I add two crushed coolant sealer pellets after rinsing and refillng. They're available at the parts counter at Buick and other GM dealers for about $3-5.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
First I would like to elaborate on my emotions from my $1000 wheel/tire purchase from tirerack.
I drive 30,000+ miles a year that is work related (from 60 to 500 miles a day). I needed a vehicle that was easy on the wallet and the back, as well as a pleasure to drive. From my perspective, the vibration was an issue that was totally unacceptable, not just an annoyance. I elected to purchase wheels and tires because I needed the problem to go away. I had the patience to trouble shoot with multiple trips to a service center, but due to my work load I did not have the time. I was anxious when I read the various posts and then placed my order. I felt like it was Christmas when the tires and wheels came in a day early. When I left the service center that mounted my new equipment I thought that I was going to die when I realized the vibration was worse.
I then posted my second comment about my Buick PA.
I began thinking that maybe it was a Tirerack flaw. I had several trips in front of me and fortunately did not have the time to get anyone to look into the problem. My first trip was 120 miles one way. I did stop after 70 miles and consult a tire specialists (ha, right). He explained that several things may be wrong and when I asked if tires had a break-in period he said absolutely not, they should ride great from mile one. WRONG
I noticed later that day that my return trip was somewhat smoother. That night I read every word of the Tirerack literature, very carefully. Michelin states that the performance tires that I purchased needed at least 500 miles before any aggressive maneuvering takes place (which I will never do anyway) to allow the lubricants to be released in all layers of the tire.
To shorten this story, I have just exceeded 1200 miles on these tires and all, yes ALL of the vibrations are gone, with the exception of a (new) slight vibration when braking heavily at high speeds. I am guessing the front end alignment that imidazol was referring to in the previous post. So I will take his recommendation and rotate, balance and align after 4 or 5k on the tread.
Soooooo, PA owners with the vibration, new wheels and michelin tires (notice I went high speed rating on the tires) WILL definitely smooth out that suspension and allow your PA to ride the way it was intended to ride. You MUST "Road Force Balance" and "Dynamically Balance" each tire/wheel. As it turned out, Tirerack did a great job, and it was free because I bought tires and wheels at the same time online and selected the free balance option.
Now for Buick.
IMO. Corporate should have solved this problem instead of apparently forcing individual dealerships to field the repairs. It seems as though some dealers satisfied customers, others did not. The "Buick" dealership where I purchased my factory buyback PA appeared to be ignorant about how to resolve the issue. I will still be getting a free rotation and front end alignment from them, but I did pay for the wheels and tires that actually solved the problem (not warranted on used cars).
THX edmunds
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Shake/Vibration in Steering Wheel, Floor, Seat at Highway Speeds on Smooth Roads (Diagnose/Balance Tires/Wheels) #00-03-10-007G - (10/01/2004)
Models: 1998-2005 Buick Park Avenue, Park Avenue Ultra
It involves replacing front control arms if needed.
Also, per a previous email question, these are factory 17 inch chrome wheels. All Ultra's from 2003 and 2004 have these wheels. They look nice but must have a bad resonance mode in there somewhere.
:mad: :confuse:
I have heard a "clicking" sound from the dashboard. I've adjusted the dash lights from the light switch and the sound does go away.
Today I had to get the car jumped. I did go to Autozone and had the charging system tested. The battery (4 years old) and alternator checked out OK.
I am looking at replacing the headlight switch (@$60 to $100).
I was wondering if this is a known problem or if I'm going in the right direction.
Thanks!
My only problem is I don't know it is located.Could you help me in finding the on-star unit location in 2002 Buick Park avenue.
I knew there were articles about doing this.
Search the web for "use onstar gps laptop."
Note the PopSci article says to be sure your car does not REQUIRE the VIU to be present. That sounds like it's integrated into some cars.
I don't recommend or encourage this. I'm concerned you'll run into a quirk and have a major problem. But I supplied a link with a caveat to you.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Before these malfunctions started, did your headlamps turn on by themselves when it gets dark? Many (perhaps all) PA's have an automatic headlamp system, but it only works when the ignition is on.
There also could be an electrical fault in the ignition switch that is making the LCM think the ignition is on when it's not, thereby turning on the headlights when it gets dark (if you have the auto headlamps).
We did notice, but only for a while, that when driving during daylight that there was a loud "clicking" sound. I did find that by playing with the light switch it went away. I did not put the "clicking" and the light problem together until recently.
Last week I did replace the light switch. So far it's working great, but, it has always been an intermittent problem.
If the problem returns I've try the light control module.
Thanks again for responding.
0) disconnect battery
1) remove left Instrument Panel endcap - it pops off with a little pull
2) remove left IP accessory trim plate - woodgrain piece to the left of steering column, pulls off with gentle prying
3) remove right IP accessory trim plate - woodgrain piece to the right of steering column, pulls off with gentle prying (may need to disconnect wiring connectors, or just leave hanging temporarily)
4) Block wheels
5) Put transmission lever in 1st gear
6) Remove IP cluster trim plate fastener from the left IP endcap area (small socket needed)
7) Gently pry the IP cluster trim plate away from dash cluster - this is the piece that frames your dash gauge cluster
8) Remove 4 screws that hold dash cluster in place and pull clear plastic cover away from gauges
9) Flip fuel gauge needle around counter clockwise
10) reinstall in reverse order.
I think you need to have the key turned back off before you reconnect the battery or the problem may re-occur.
Sorry if I added too much detail for this forum, I don't know what the norm is and just wanted to relate my experience.
Do yourself a favor. Drill a 1/4" hole through the cover of panel, just below fuel guage. Insert straightened paper clip and manually rotate needle. Go to hardware store and in the isle where all the pull out trays of screws and fun stuff, you will find 1/4" black plastic plug that will snap into hole you drilled. It becomes invisible. You will have this problem again, guaranteed
You're saying it's better to drive maybe 15-20 mins each way to the hardware store, obtain rubber plug and maybe a drill bit, spend a little more on gas and end up with a 'invisible' plugged hole in your dash?
Take a close look at this cluster pic of a BPA on eBay, look at the XL view pic #23.
cluster pic
Looks like this drill repair job cracked, is about 3" long and not as invisible as you describe. I'm sure with the right bit and time spent it may be 'less' visible, tho not 'invisible'. Maybe this person was unlucky or unskilled at drilling in cramped quarters.
Why not do it the right way (apparently several ways are non-destructive), save time, money, and leave the gauge cover intact ( 'invisible')? :confuse: If you have a small socket set, you are good to go in 20 minutes.
Mine has not re-occured, fwiw
Drilling a quick hole is a common method. I don't know what that has to do with breaking off part of your window; it would actually shatter in most cases unless it's safety glass like a Lucerne. Smallbites was offering a helpful suggestion--the same one I would have offered.
I'm glad you haven't had a recurrence, yet.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
On the other hand.. the PLEASE.. reply to my post seemed a little condescending to my eyes. :confuse:
I realize he was just repeating the advice he asked for and received last year, on this very forum. If I could I would go back and edit out the terseness for the benefit of future readers, and if you have the privilege to edit, please do so. I appreciate the forum.
I simply tried to show what seems to have happened to another person who tried the drill option, so that your members can look at all the options/risks.
My opinion obviously is why damage an expensive car when you can fix it so simply?
I will work on the delivery.
Sorry.
I visualize taking off the dash front as a real problem. I've done that in the past on Buicks. It is potentially a chance to damage something else or break off a prong needed to hold the thing back on. It's also a chance to have something rattle that didn't used to rattle.
So I view removing the dash as a real negative, for me with my hands. I'm glad you successfully did it.
I think the caveat could go both ways; I'm great with sharp drill bits and handling that. so people need to use good equipment for the drilling and need to have dentist's hands to stop the bit as soon as it's through the plastic.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
With the key in the "OFF" position use a magnet and rotate the gauge needle counter clockwise 360 degrees until it pegs in the cold or empty position. They should stay in that position now. Turn the key to "ON" and the gauges should work correctly. You do not have to disconnect the battery.
It may take several tries with the magnet to get the needle to the position that you want.
The magnets strength should pick up a half dollar size flat washer from 1 inch. A little bit stronger would be ok.
Thanks
Have the spark plugs been replaced with Delco/AC plugs for that car in the last 30 K miles? Have the spark plug wires been replaced with original equipment wires? in last 50K miles?
If it runs rough the first thing to check is there. You might look for a plug wire that has pulled partly off the plug causing a gap.
Second would be the 3 coils to see that the connections there aren't corroded. You might remove the coils and inspect them for tracking, cracks, etc.
There are other things that can cause your problem, but look for the cheapest and most common first.
If it runs better while cold meaning running a little rich, that too could be hint what's happening.
Many people have failures of the cam sensor magnet and / or the crankshaft sensor. IF it is crankshaft sensor the usual symptom is that it stalls, won't restart for a while, and then starts and runs. The cam sensor has a magnet that's on the cam that comes loose in its plastic housing.
Don't spend money throwing parts at the car. It's better to spend money for competent mechanic to diagnose the problem and fix that one thing.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Where are the three coils located?
Thanks
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Any idea want to look at next?
Thanks.
Just recently I starting having an issue with the Service Stability System light coming on. I have associated this light with a braking issue that also just started. Intermittently when braking and starting a turn to the right there is a nasty grinding noise, which sounds like it's coming from the brakes. It will stop once I start to accelerate and pull out of the turn. I took the vehicle into the Buick dealer for service. They replaced the brakes, calibers were reworked, etc. I was told it was fixed but within a day it did it again. I took the vehicle back to the shop and this time they replaced a sensor they said was bad. Now according to what I have read on various places on the web, if a sensor is bad then not only will the Service Stability System light go on, but the ABS light will go on as well as the Traction Off light. Neither of these came on so now I am wondering if the sensor was really bad?
The vehicle is still having the same problems and yesterday it was bad enough that when I released the brake and started to press on the gas (turning to the right) the grinding noise did NOT go away and it actually kept slowing the vehicle down. I had to jerk the wheel to the left before whatever was causing this problem would let loose and I could drive away.
The dealership repair shop has NO clue what is going on. Heck, they didn't even know what the Service Stability System light was for?
Can anyone shed some light on my problem?
Buick Park Avenue
Year: 2000
Thank you,
Steve