Completely agree. The 3 gained but the market expanded and the 3-series share of that market is a now lower, actually noticably lower, than 12 months ago. We're both talking the same language
Sounds like the language of bunk to me! The only reason the IS has gained market share is because the prior generation of IS sales were practically non-existent!
You are correct that CR is a huge influence. Absolutely
Thanks for pointing that out. I mean what the hell do I know about Americans when I am not even American?
But what I do know is that the majority of Canadians that I interact with do get influenced by JD Powers and the Consumers Report. And again there is nothing wrong with using these stats for an auto purchase. I just feel there is more to a car than stats.
I think next year's EX v6 model will be worth waiting for. In all honesty if I had a choice between a 07 V6 Camry and a 07 Accord I would pick the Camry. . The Camry V6 produces a significantly higher amount of hower power with a minimal increase in MPG when compared to a 4 Cyl Camry. That IMO proves what an an amazing piece of engineering the Toyota V6 is.
Dewey, are you serious that I should re-visit this argument? I posted a number of very lengthy discussions about this on the HELM forum earlier in the year.
The brief is that even if the market grows, the market share is still up for grabs, and that as Lexus improves styling and performance, it will not just be the Mercedes vehicles that are affected. The Lexus engineers and market geniuses are snipers that have placed BMW in their crosshairs. There is little doubt of this, and all major reviewers have already acknowledged this. The comps to BMW are increasing everywhere.
I could go on and on, but I'm staying with this perspective until I am convinced otherwise. At this point I believe it more than ever, but time will tell, of course, as it always does.
I understand your point about the IS being a previous slug, but where do you think the market share is coming from now that there ARE buyers for the IS? Think about it.
I understand your point about the IS being a previous slug, but where do you think the market share is coming from now that there ARE buyers for the IS? Think about it.
What is there to think about? When you have practically non-existent prior year sales then increasing market share in the following year becomes a no-brainer especially with a new product! If Kia introduced a luxury model they would steal market share from BMW and Lexus no matter how sub-par that Kia model is. It is not hard to steal market share if you begin from nothing or a low number.
There is nothing what you wrote that proves BMW is threatened by Lexus. Lexus does have marketing geniuses just like BMW has marketing geniuses. BMW did not become the number one global luxury company without a bit of genius.
The IS350 cannot compete with a BMW335i The GS350 cannot compete with a BMW530i
Time will tell if the new LS can compete with the new generation 7 series. I doubt it very much especially since the new LS received mixed reviews so far!
I have a theory that I have argued previously and it will either prove or disprove itself over time.
you posted: The IS350 cannot compete with a BMW335i The GS350 cannot compete with a BMW530i
Then why are they compared so much in all the mags? So many reviewers compare them, don't they? I think we both know which vehicles are better. I am NOT saying that the Bimmers are not better, as I believe they are. But that has NOTHING to do with competition and comparisons, and sales numbers.
Whether or not the S-Class has been a better car than the LS over the years has NOTHING to do with the FACT that the LS has indeed taken market share from Mercedes.
This isn't a discussion about which cars are better. I would imagine that you and I have no disagreement on that whatsoever. But I still believe that there are many consumers that will increasingly choose a Lexus over BMW, as well as Mercedes, as time goes on. For reasons of increased performance, improved styling, and perceived reliability, as well as targeted marketing. It's that simple.
Look at Toyota's recent numbers. Don't you think that they are taking market share? It has to come from somewhere, doesn't it? It doesn't come out of thin air.
still believe that there are many consumers that will increasingly choose a Lexus over BMW, as well as Mercedes, as time goes on. For reasons of increased performance, improved styling, and reliability, as well as targeted marketing. It's that simple.
The source of our disagreement is your above assertion. There is nothing simple about it. Especially when we both dont know what the upcoming sales trends will be? What you are saying above is that BMW cannot improve their performance, styling and reliability as well as MB or Lexus. Do you honestly believe that :confuse:
Look at Toyota's recent numbers. Don't you think that they are taking market share? It has to come from somewhere, doesn't it?
Yes Toyota market share is coming from Nissan, GM , Ford, and many others! Is it coming from BMW? That is very debatable.
Yes Toyota market share is coming from Nissan, GM , Ford, and many others! Is it coming from BMW? That is very debatable.
Unless you are including Lexus, I wasn't suggesting that it was. I think you are missing my point.
There is only so much market to go around. When it comes to Lexus, they are INCREASING their share of what is a growing pie. This simply means that Lexus' growth in share is at the expense of others in the same arena. Who do you think? Everyone else but BMW?
I love those Bimmers, too. And I am excited that you are getting a beautiful new twin-turbo. Nothing from Lexus there! Although, isn't there talk of an IS500?
OK, let's see now. I think I want a IS 350 but I want to make some comparisons before I buy. I think I will compare it to the Ford 500. No. How about a Chevy Impala. No. Cadillac Escalade? Nope. Gosh, just what should I compare it to?
I really need a good parking lot car and the Accord looks like the one. So, Honda is doing a complete makeover of the Accord next year, Dewey? I didn't realize that. I can hold out 'til then. Thanks!
Regarding: If Kia introduced a luxury model they would steal market share from BMW and Lexus no matter how sub-par that Kia model is.
Then, why didn't Kia do so? Because a sub-par model won't steal any significant market share.
Your argument would have held if Lexus sales went from 1 car to 2 cars. Yeah, some people would buy just because it's a new thing.
But for Lexus, in 1989, it has 0 market share in the US. By 1998 it became the LARGEST luxury brand there---again, we are not talking about from 1 car to 2 cars. Can your sub-par Kia achieve the top-sales status? The fact is: Lexus had beaten a lot of German a$$es to achieved that. That trend continues today, the market share of Lexus is ever-increasing since 1989.
The debate whether IS is as good as the 3 seires will go nowhere, since that's a highly subjective matter. The debate can last longer than either company can survive. However, the debate whether Lexus is gaining market share at the expense of German competitors should end here. Just go google a historic sales diagram.
Here is a quote about the LS from a Lexus PR man himself about how the current Lexus LS430 and previous LS models compared with other models:
At Lexus for instance, Mr. Carter concedes that up until now, when wealthy customers considered their choices for premium luxury cars, "we weren't on those shopping lists" next to the segment defining Mercedes S Class and BMW 7 series
Hey Tony. There will come a time in my life when comfort will be more important than driving excitement. I'm not quite there yet, though I do believe the wife is stirring up a 3% formaldehyde solution as I write this, although I may just be getting paranoid-it could actually be a Tom Collins!
I vow never to be one of those minivan seniors that I see so often. The LS may just fit the bill someday.
Maybe in a few years, Oac and I will trade: his LS 460 for my 545. I hear San Diego State is giving a 1 credit graduate course, "The Intricacies of iDrive."
As a non-Lexus customer at a Lexus showroom, I would have to have a salesman beside me on a test drive of the LS. I would find it hard to concentrate on driving when he/she is overloading me with technical information about the vehicle. I will get a much better feel for the new LS at the "Taste" event. I was thinking of backing out, but the consensus has it that I should go. I made the same trip last week on other business, speeding up considerably at "Alligator Alley" (the Everglades). Thankfully, the comfort seats and the smooth ride of the 545 made the trip relatively easy.
The 2007 Audi S8 is nothing short of a phenom. I can't stop driving the thing, despite me having cars that will run circles around it.
As to the reliablility and resale. Well both figures have not been ascertained as of yet, but check this:
The Lambo Gallardo-sourced 5.0L V10 has been rated to have higher durability and more reliablitity than the Ferrari high-winding F430. Factor in the ultra-durable quattro and super trick 4-position air suspension, and it was no-brainer.
As to the resale: The Audi S4/RS 4 now has the strongest resale value in their class. Not because of their lofty price, but because of the scarcity and 2 year wait period. The same can be said for the S6 and S8, all of which have been sold through '08. Factor in Audi's super-low production numbers for these hot-rides(1500 for the S8, 2550 for the S6), and you've got one wanted ride.
True, the Camry V-6 does have more power than the EX-V6 Accord, however the buck stops there.
First off, the Accord V-6 is actually available with a stick. And the Honda V-6 is smoother still than the new 3.5 Toyota. And on top of that, the smaller and less powerful V6 is still faster(6.3 for the Accord v. 7 secs for the Camry) and thriftier(21/31) than the Camry, on reg. gas and thanks to Honda's super-slick trannies. Styling on both are fully subjective, but the tacked-on sill extensions of the Camry are not as graceful as the conservative but clean look of the Accord.
Build quality, reliability, and reputation? They are so close in these aspects that they could be made from the same company.......
Well I hope there's more than the usual hot dogs and hamburgers, but I'm sure that after driving for 3.5 hours, that will taste just fine.
Of course, if they serve baked beans, this will provide me with an excellent opportunity to test the excellence of the fabled Lexus ventilation systems of the GS450h and LS460.
First and foremost, the Accord Sedan V-6 is not available with a manual. Only the coupe is...and btw, good luck even finding one of those! Second, check out last month's Motor Trend issue, Camry SE V6....0-60MPH 6.1 seconds. and I think the Camry had EPA rating of 22/31.
most importantly, Camrys are among the most boring cars on the planet. I get greater thrills driving my golf cart.
Accords are the absolute best of the family sedans/coupes and pretty soon Hyundai will be leaving Toyota in the dust.
I will proudly add a Honda Accord EX V6 to share my garage with my 545. Probably next year, as Dewey suggests with the redesign. Hope they make the rear a little more inspired.
I would never consider getting a Camry. Why the very thought has me reaching for the Maalox.
"If Kia introduced a luxury model they would steal market share from BMW and Lexus no matter how sub-par that Kia model is."
Oh, I don't think so. Kia has a luxury model, the Amanti. I dare you to find any former BMW owners who have switched. The Amanti isn't a bad car - it drives a lot like a cheap Buick. I can't see anybody cross-shopping it with a Bimmer.
Um, recheck your facts. The Accord sedan V6 is available with a stick for the first time with the '06 refresh.
Furthermore, the Camry can't hustle an Accord down with any engine as it still doesn't have the bones and muscle the Accord does. And on the mileage, the V6 Camry DOES NOT have an EPA of 22/31, more like 20/29. Very minute difference, but facts are facts
BTW: You can find plenty manual 4 and 6 cyl. Accords everywhere, even here in traffic-conjested-hate-stick-shift New York City.
I've used Accords off and on to travel to session in the City for the last 16 years since the radical 1990 model was new.
I've got an '06 EX-V6 that I must say is a pretty decent runabout car when you just don't want to use the Audi, or in your case, the 545. I honestly think that Honda still makes the best product in this class, and for that, as long as they keep up the quality and reliability(the '98 had 259,000 miles on it when I gave it up in '05 to get the '06, and still managed to get 4500 bucks for it, all the mechanicals being original).
Sometimes I just don't want to draw attention with the 545, such as in certain parking lots where kids hang out. I also plan to use the Accord as an incentive to get my wife to learn to drive since the 545 is "off limits." I can't imagine a better value for about $25k than the EX V-6 Accord.
Sorry that I forgot to disclose the price earlier.
I have been shopping online for a 2007 S550. The seller is willing to sell it for $75K.
This car has about 9,500 miles, and the owner has piled up the mileage in 1 month. Now, the car came with Active Body Control, premium package II, panorama sunroof, some other small added options, and 20'' chrome wheels.
Now, I tried to look at the bluebook value for the car and I couldn't find any.
Does anyone feel this is a good deal? Any comment will be greatly appreciated.
Thats another demerit that Toyota has against itself when it comes to the Accord's main nemesis, PRICE. For a Camry to have all of the things that are standard on the $26k Accord, one would have to shell out $31k to get it all, and that's before NAV, which Honda offers for $2k as an option and thus still keeping the price under 30. And by the time the Camry gets into the 30's, that ES350 looks even better, maybe even the better equipped Nissan Maxima or G35. Honda knows this and that's why they don't outprice themselves by shoving a fully-loaded Accord V6 up against the just as loaded TL. Even tho I live near the busy city in the US, I still don't need NAV, so $22.5k later(after trade and NY taxes), I'm driving my '06 that I absolutely love.
That $75k is about 15k or more below what the car is new, and the resale value won't fall that far, so it may be a better buy.
9500 miles in a month, eh? Well if the car is warrantied up to 100k, I wouldn't stress that to much as MB builds some of the most rock solid powertrains this side of Japan.
Just curious, why such a fast sell on the car with that many miles? Is he just needing to get out of the car?
BTW: speaking of, make sure the car is free and clear from all obligations(just the law side of me coming out)
I know the advantage of the V6 Accord is the stick. That is why I would pick an Accord. But in Howard's case the Accord is going to be automatic.
Also you raise good points about the advantages of the Accord. I am not as well researched in these cars as I should be but one thing for certain is that I tend to favor sportier Honda models than Toyota models myself
Hey Dewey, from what I remember, Japan was no angel during WW2 either. So that guy feels more "virtuous" buying Lexus than BMW? Anybody who attaches politics to a hunk of sheet metal is not worthy of our attention, IMO.
Thanks for your input, blkhemi. I think the guy needs to get out the car fast, and that's what concerns me sometimes. I have asked for car title, registration and the seller's personal information so that I can find out if the car is free and clear. I am waiting to hear back from him.
The car does not have 100K warranty, since this is not a pre-owned vehicle.
Ditto for my experience with my new 2007 S6. The S6 is nothing short of sheer pleasure. It may not be the fastest as it is an S and not the RS, but the quality, feel, speed, touch, design, and sound are a phenom. I am sure it will be rare although my dealer has a waiting list now for the S6 and S8. Words are not enough.
I have found that most threads are like that. I once got in to it with the guys on the Subaru board as I found it a little ridiculous that I was denied a test drive of an STI. This apparently is standard operating procedure at Subaru, but I thought it a little silly coming from Audi and having the keys to a 55k S4 thrown at me. None the less it seems all to common that people only want to here want they want to here about their favorite ice cream so to speak, and to say otherwise is grounds to call upon the military as surely something foul is afoot. [or to pack up the sand box and head home for milk and graham crackers.] A reminder to keep an open mind. Speaking off, has anyone seen the "artist rendering" of the new Supra? I believe it's in this months road&track. Very nice as far as styling goes. A possable 350 horse base 6 cylinder to give a black eye to the 350Z so to speak. Has anyone seen Merc lately? I think he's on vacation after a very bizzare debate with a couple of GM cheerleaders. I doubt he was hurt, but I feel confident that he was as confused as I was over some of the "domestic" "theology"
We have to see how LS sales go from about May 2007 going forward relative to sales of the 7 series and S-Class. Only then will we have a somewhat accurate idea about the influence of the new LS' market share.
Comments
Sounds like the language of bunk to me!
The only reason the IS has gained market share is because the prior generation of IS sales were practically non-existent!
I know Tagman's opinion but I dont know his reasoning yet?
Thanks for pointing that out. I mean what the hell do I know about Americans when I am not even American?
But what I do know is that the majority of Canadians that I interact with do get influenced by JD Powers and the Consumers Report. And again there is nothing wrong with using these stats for an auto purchase. I just feel there is more to a car than stats.
I think next year's EX v6 model will be worth waiting for.
In all honesty if I had a choice between a 07 V6 Camry and a 07 Accord I would pick the Camry. . The Camry V6 produces a significantly higher amount of hower power with a minimal increase in MPG when compared to a 4 Cyl Camry. That IMO proves what an an amazing piece of engineering the Toyota V6 is.
The brief is that even if the market grows, the market share is still up for grabs, and that as Lexus improves styling and performance, it will not just be the Mercedes vehicles that are affected. The Lexus engineers and market geniuses are snipers that have placed BMW in their crosshairs. There is little doubt of this, and all major reviewers have already acknowledged this. The comps to BMW are increasing everywhere.
I could go on and on, but I'm staying with this perspective until I am convinced otherwise. At this point I believe it more than ever, but time will tell, of course, as it always does.
I understand your point about the IS being a previous slug, but where do you think the market share is coming from now that there ARE buyers for the IS? Think about it.
TagMan
I understand your point about the IS being a previous slug, but where do you think the market share is coming from now that there ARE buyers for the IS? Think about it.
What is there to think about? When you have practically non-existent prior year sales then increasing market share in the following year becomes a no-brainer especially with a new product! If Kia introduced a luxury model they would steal market share from BMW and Lexus no matter how sub-par that Kia model is. It is not hard to steal market share if you begin from nothing or a low number.
There is nothing what you wrote that proves BMW is threatened by Lexus. Lexus does have marketing geniuses just like BMW has marketing geniuses. BMW did not become the number one global luxury company without a bit of genius.
The IS350 cannot compete with a BMW335i
The GS350 cannot compete with a BMW530i
Time will tell if the new LS can compete with the new generation 7 series. I doubt it very much especially since the new LS received mixed reviews so far!
I'm not out to prove anything!
I have a theory that I have argued previously and it will either prove or disprove itself over time.
you posted:
The IS350 cannot compete with a BMW335i
The GS350 cannot compete with a BMW530i
Then why are they compared so much in all the mags? So many reviewers compare them, don't they? I think we both know which vehicles are better. I am NOT saying that the Bimmers are not better, as I believe they are. But that has NOTHING to do with competition and comparisons, and sales numbers.
Whether or not the S-Class has been a better car than the LS over the years has NOTHING to do with the FACT that the LS has indeed taken market share from Mercedes.
This isn't a discussion about which cars are better. I would imagine that you and I have no disagreement on that whatsoever. But I still believe that there are many consumers that will increasingly choose a Lexus over BMW, as well as Mercedes, as time goes on. For reasons of increased performance, improved styling, and perceived reliability, as well as targeted marketing. It's that simple.
Look at Toyota's recent numbers. Don't you think that they are taking market share? It has to come from somewhere, doesn't it? It doesn't come out of thin air.
TagMan
The source of our disagreement is your above assertion. There is nothing simple about it. Especially when we both dont know what the upcoming sales trends will be? What you are saying above is that BMW cannot improve their performance, styling and reliability as well as MB or Lexus. Do you honestly believe that :confuse:
Look at Toyota's recent numbers. Don't you think that they are taking market share? It has to come from somewhere, doesn't it?
Yes Toyota market share is coming from Nissan, GM , Ford, and many others! Is it coming from BMW? That is very debatable.
Unless you are including Lexus, I wasn't suggesting that it was. I think you are missing my point.
There is only so much market to go around. When it comes to Lexus, they are INCREASING their share of what is a growing pie. This simply means that Lexus' growth in share is at the expense of others in the same arena. Who do you think? Everyone else but BMW?
TagMan
But the BMW part I disagree with
I love those Bimmers, too. And I am excited that you are getting a beautiful new twin-turbo. Nothing from Lexus there! Although, isn't there talk of an IS500?
TagMan
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I hope the S8 blows me away.
So, Honda is doing a complete makeover of the Accord next year, Dewey?
I didn't realize that. I can hold out 'til then.
Thanks!
But the coffee and doughnuts better be good.
It's a 260 mile drive!
Then, why didn't Kia do so? Because a sub-par model won't steal any significant market share.
Your argument would have held if Lexus sales went from 1 car to 2 cars. Yeah, some people would buy just because it's a new thing.
But for Lexus, in 1989, it has 0 market share in the US. By 1998 it became the LARGEST luxury brand there---again, we are not talking about from 1 car to 2 cars. Can your sub-par Kia achieve the top-sales status? The fact is: Lexus had beaten a lot of German a$$es to achieved that. That trend continues today, the market share of Lexus is ever-increasing since 1989.
The debate whether IS is as good as the 3 seires will go nowhere, since that's a highly subjective matter. The debate can last longer than either company can survive. However, the debate whether Lexus is gaining market share at the expense of German competitors should end here. Just go google a historic sales diagram.
Here is a quote about the LS from a Lexus PR man himself about how the current Lexus LS430 and previous LS models compared with other models:
At Lexus for instance, Mr. Carter concedes that up until now, when wealthy customers considered their choices for premium luxury cars, "we weren't on those shopping lists" next to the segment defining Mercedes S Class and BMW 7 series
SOURCE WALL STREET JOURNAL Sept. 25, 2006
I'm not quite there yet, though I do believe the wife is stirring up a 3% formaldehyde solution as I write this, although I may just be getting paranoid-it could actually be a Tom Collins!
I vow never to be one of those minivan seniors that I see so often.
The LS may just fit the bill someday.
Maybe in a few years, Oac and I will trade: his LS 460 for my 545.
I hear San Diego State is giving a 1 credit graduate course, "The Intricacies of iDrive."
I made the same trip last week on other business, speeding up considerably at "Alligator Alley" (the Everglades).
Thankfully, the comfort seats and the smooth ride of the 545 made the trip relatively easy.
TagMan
As to the reliablility and resale. Well both figures have not been ascertained as of yet, but check this:
The Lambo Gallardo-sourced 5.0L V10 has been rated to have higher durability and more reliablitity than the Ferrari high-winding F430. Factor in the ultra-durable quattro and super trick 4-position air suspension, and it was no-brainer.
As to the resale: The Audi S4/RS 4 now has the strongest resale value in their class. Not because of their lofty price, but because of the scarcity and 2 year wait period. The same can be said for the S6 and S8, all of which have been sold through '08. Factor in Audi's super-low production numbers for these hot-rides(1500 for the S8, 2550 for the S6), and you've got one wanted ride.
First off, the Accord V-6 is actually available with a stick. And the Honda V-6 is smoother still than the new 3.5 Toyota. And on top of that, the smaller and less powerful V6 is still faster(6.3 for the Accord v. 7 secs for the Camry) and thriftier(21/31) than the Camry, on reg. gas and thanks to Honda's super-slick trannies. Styling on both are fully subjective, but the tacked-on sill extensions of the Camry are not as graceful as the conservative but clean look of the Accord.
Build quality, reliability, and reputation? They are so close in these aspects that they could be made from the same company.......
I did, however, enjoy our discussion, and I thank you for the spirited exchange.
TagMan
Hope the food is good. Plan on chillin' for at least 45 minutes after I arrive so I can have a fair test drive.
Hope the pate isn't domestic and the geese were corn fed.
So what's on the menu?
TagMan
What is HELM??
Of course, if they serve baked beans, this will provide me with an excellent opportunity to test the excellence of the fabled Lexus ventilation systems of the GS450h and LS460.
I get greater thrills driving my golf cart.
Accords are the absolute best of the family sedans/coupes and pretty soon Hyundai will be leaving Toyota in the dust.
I will proudly add a Honda Accord EX V6 to share my garage with my 545. Probably next year, as Dewey suggests with the redesign. Hope they make the rear a little more inspired.
I would never consider getting a Camry. Why the very thought has me reaching for the Maalox.
Oh, I don't think so. Kia has a luxury model, the Amanti. I dare you to find any former BMW owners who have switched. The Amanti isn't a bad car - it drives a lot like a cheap Buick. I can't see anybody cross-shopping it with a Bimmer.
Furthermore, the Camry can't hustle an Accord down with any engine as it still doesn't have the bones and muscle the Accord does. And on the mileage, the V6 Camry DOES NOT have an EPA of 22/31, more like 20/29. Very minute difference, but facts are facts
BTW: You can find plenty manual 4 and 6 cyl. Accords everywhere, even here in traffic-conjested-hate-stick-shift New York City.
I've got an '06 EX-V6 that I must say is a pretty decent runabout car when you just don't want to use the Audi, or in your case, the 545. I honestly think that Honda still makes the best product in this class, and for that, as long as they keep up the quality and reliability(the '98 had 259,000 miles on it when I gave it up in '05 to get the '06, and still managed to get 4500 bucks for it, all the mechanicals being original).
Sometimes I just don't want to draw attention with the 545, such as in certain parking lots where kids hang out.
I also plan to use the Accord as an incentive to get my wife to learn to drive since the 545 is "off limits."
I can't imagine a better value for about $25k than the EX V-6 Accord.
I have been shopping online for a 2007 S550. The seller is willing to sell it for $75K.
This car has about 9,500 miles, and the owner has piled up the mileage in 1 month. Now, the car came with Active Body Control, premium package II, panorama sunroof, some other small added options, and 20'' chrome wheels.
Now, I tried to look at the bluebook value for the car and I couldn't find any.
Does anyone feel this is a good deal? Any comment will be greatly appreciated.
9500 miles in a month, eh? Well if the car is warrantied up to 100k, I wouldn't stress that to much as MB builds some of the most rock solid powertrains this side of Japan.
Just curious, why such a fast sell on the car with that many miles? Is he just needing to get out of the car?
BTW: speaking of, make sure the car is free and clear from all obligations(just the law side of me coming out)
I would never pay for NAV in any vehicle.
Give me a folding map, an AM radio and the sun.
Given the better ride, price and "look," the Accord EX V6 is a no-brainer at $25k.
I have yet to see a negative review concerning this vehicle.
Why anybody buys a Camry when the Accord is available at invoice is one of life's great mysteries.
Also you raise good points about the advantages of the Accord. I am not as well researched in these cars as I should be but one thing for certain is that I tend to favor sportier Honda models than Toyota models myself
Anybody who attaches politics to a hunk of sheet metal is not worthy of our attention, IMO.
The car does not have 100K warranty, since this is not a pre-owned vehicle.
A reminder to keep an open mind. Speaking off, has anyone seen the "artist rendering" of the new Supra? I believe it's in this months road&track. Very nice as far as styling goes. A possable 350 horse base 6 cylinder to give a black eye to the 350Z so to speak.
Has anyone seen Merc lately? I think he's on vacation after a very bizzare debate with a couple of GM cheerleaders. I doubt he was hurt, but I feel confident that he was as confused as I was over some of the "domestic" "theology"
Only then will we have a somewhat accurate idea about the influence of the new LS' market share.