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What would be the difference between this and the last test? There would still only be about a 10K price difference, not Lexus' usual 15-20K. In this scenario one of the main things that have carried them to victory is gone - price.
The S maybe a slightly better performer dynamically, but factor in other important factors, luxury features, looks, ergonomics, ride, efficiency, and value, and the LS should STILL come out on top.
The ride advantage is gone or imaginary at best. Even with the last S certain sources that love Lexus said that the S had a better ride. The ride and handling compromise is what is key, not just who is softest, though that won't win Lexus any point anymore either. All the things you speak of were factored in the last time around it didn't make a difference. The S apparently can match the "ride" of the LS with better handling according to C&D. Which means one doesn't have at accept poor handling to get a good "ride".
M
On another hand, a monster luxo-car might be the best for spinal injury/surgery patients, in the event of an impact.
Ok, enough about the spinal stuff and best wishes to all ye luxo-buyers with spinal considerations.
Anyway, I just want to throw in my 2 cents on these luxo cars even though I haven't bought one yet. The most luxo for me was a Y2K Benz E320 *Wagon*. It had fantastic features and ride, but it was by far the least reliable new vehicle I've owned, out of almost 20 vehicles including 1980s Camaros!
My 2 cents on current luxo cars & buyers: some of us luxo or near-luxo buyers prefer to pay an extra $ to the automakers for a diesel or hybrid luxo-car rather than paying more $ to oil producers. Obviously luxo-buyers can afford just about ANY mpg. But that doesn't mean that these buyers are not considering mpg. To the contrary - some luxo-buyers are willing to pay a big premium for the better-mpg (DIESEL especially), even in cases where it does not pay back in terms of fuel-cost-savings.
See you on the highways in your luxo-cruisers, folks!
Was there a comparo or are you talking about the COTY testing? If it was COTY I must have a different copy because mine clearly states that the LS doesn't beat the S as the luxury car champ. I don't get how you could come up with the LS being on top from that. Even in the caption they state that at best the LS can put up a good fight. Where does it say anything about the LS being on top?
M
The LS 460 began arriving at dealerships in late fall at a starting price of $61,000. Considering all the new technology, that's nearly as good a value as the original 1989 model, which cost $35,000 ($57,500 in today's dollars). Yet my emotions remained curiously unmoved. Perhaps I missed the autobahn more than I thought.
SOURCE:CNN Money
Question: How can there ever be any hope of a High Performance Lexus Division when every single Lexus model is dull? A high performance Lexus is as much an oxymoron as a ultra-luxury VW in the form of a Phaeton.
1. Not enough chrome
2. No piping on leather seats
3. Car was too quiet
And this makes the car dull? Looks like another reviewer who loved the LS but could not bring himself to admit it without pulling his punches!!
I would liken the LS to a top notch athlete who makes everything he does look easy, perhaps boring to some, while his competitors are straining, thrashing around, and making a lot of noise just trying to keep up.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
The car does most things well. Not excellent. Not even exciting. It's just there.
But that does well for the Lexus core base.
However, I can't concur with you on the LS remaining number one, judging by Toyota's now declining sales across the board in this country for Nov. We'll just have to wait and see if people still see at as the "value" it wants to be.
Toyota's now declining sales across the board in this country for Nov.
Not sure where you got this. TMC's Nov. was up 15.9% yty, and ytd through Nov they were up 12.5%.
link title
When do you anticipate purchasing a HELC?
You have it narrowed down to the S550, A8, and the LS460?...or LS460L?
TagMan
Do you live in a rural snowy and mountainous ?
Snow can never stop me from buying RWD. But fortunately I live in a city with no mountains.
TagMan
Yeah, considering how close the next Q supposedly is, its surprising that there's still basically no information on it. No concept art, nothing. Apparently they want to keep this one a secret until the last minute.
I drove around Vermont during winter with my RWD BMW and it was quite a scary experience.
They once again lagged behind the old laggert, GM, albeit not very far off of the mark. The crushed Ford again.
So Syswei, Lexus pulled out all of the stops with their AWD system by developing a very sophisticated system with a very Audi-like Torsen center diff. Supposed to be the best on the market behind, you guessed it, the A8.
Hopefully they'll release the technology down to the 460 models also.
Glad you enjoy the show! Catch you here tomorrow.
Same Lexus time. Same Lexus Station!
So long!
DrFill
Uhh... no.
Not when the objective evidence shows that:
1. C&D couldn't duplicate the Lexus LS460 numbers for 0-60 mph time, among other accelleration numbers; all too slow.
2. The braking distance numbers for the LS460 as reported by C&D are cause for concern (even the devout Lexbyterians among us admit this).
C&D also couldn't duplicate something else: the weight of the car. They listed the LS460L's curb weight at 4700 lb. Lexus puts it at 4332 lb. Do you think Lexus is lying?
Or do you think maybe the discrepancy could be due to the fact that C&D tested a pre-production car? And if so, do you think there might, just possibly, be other differences between pre-production and production versions of the LS?
I agree with syswei that if Lexus says it will create a high-performance division, we should give them a chance and see what they can come up with.
I did love the Toyota Supra once upon a time in yesteryear.
They just may come up with some exciting vehicles with prices that would even make Steve gasp!
I trust C&D's findings far more than I would ever trust any car company's published data and that includes BMW as well as Lexus.
Unfortunately there was a 368 lb. fat man in the back seat eating a hamburger and listening to the Mark Levinson stereo.
They couldn't eject the guy from the car... So they ran the tests anyway.
This further explains why the car was so slow and the brakes were so bad.
:P
TagMan
Sure they do. Look what Lotus did to poor cervical spine injury dude.
Anyhow, still waiting to give Lexus the benefit of the doubt on this one since up to now, they have primarily been manufacturing luxury vehicles, ON PURPOSE!
A new Lexus division devoted exclusively to high-end performance vehicles should not be taken lightly, IMO.
Ultimately up a mountain road so that I can strap on some 175cm plastic/wood/fiberglass/metal sticks to my feet, which are entombed in heavy plastic/fabric/metal boots. So that I may hurtle down an even higher elevation on the aforementioned beautiful natural and man-made substance in a seemingly uncontrolled manner. Often seeking out surface irregularities and rarely skiing in a straight line. And very fast but for the most part, like driving, in control! And unlike while driving my car in the snow, I will intentionally head into the woods!
I enjoy driving, even in the snow. I love skiing, especially in the snow! Long live Northern New England!!!
Any questions?
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
Just think what it would be like if people were to constantly praise themselves the way Lexus praises itself (especially the halftime show, eh?), the words conceit and self- admiration would fall short by a country mile.
So, tell me...does Lexus actually know the true weight of their cars or not?
TagMan
I remember you saying something about the reliability of the S when you were looking at the Q7? Are you hearing anything about the S at the dealer level as far as reliability goes?
M
Better than the A8? Maybe, maybe not. I think each respective seat fits the character of the car. The A8 is just so sheek and modern while the Mercedes is more classic luxury brought up to date.
I do know that that the S and A8 are my favorite sedans in this segment by far right now. The next 7 has got to be better looking in order to get on the list. Blkhemi has one hell of a garage, but I'd have a S8 and a CL550 to balance things out.
M
M
I sure hate he isn't hear to see this. He went on and on about how Lexus should match BMW and Audi in price and they did just that, but still staying below Mercedes, though not by as much as in previous years. He got exactly what he wanted.
M
No, haven't gotten that far...remember, any decision for me is probably a year away. I have only seen the JDP data (barely acceptable, but still in the acceptable range, from my point of view) and your and blkhemi's commentary (based I guess on annecdotes from the germancarfan-type forums, and blkhemi's S), which is better.
The weighty options would be the rear A/C unit and the reclining rear seat. A room A/C unit such as a 6000 BTU Sharp designed to cool roughly 2000 cubic feet (compared to 103 cu ft for the entire LS)...weighs 50 pounds. A reclining seat? When folded, it is the same size as a regular seat. So we are talking about some extra metal and small electric motors. How much weight could that possibly add?
I'd be surprised if the extra equipment added more than 100-150 lbs. But even if it is 368 lb, should C&D, since it is so performance-leaning in its comparo, even be testing the heaviest possible configuration? If performance is the goal, why not test a more mainstream, lighter configuration? Not that the LS would have come out #1 with a production unit sans weighty stuff, but it might have done better than finishing behind 2 cars that the LS430 had beaten in the past.
As far as testing the lightest version that would have been out of sync with the others, all of them were top of the line, pretty much loaded, LWB models. I usually don't get into curb weights given by manufacturers because almost all of them go for a stripped down car when reporting curb weights on their repsective websites.
M
Wow...didn't exepect that. Everything I've seen on MBWorld for example says Mercedes has turned the corner with the S and only the S. The GL, not. There isn't a single "problem" thread on the whole board regarding the 07' S-Class, yet the W220 section is of course filled with them. There are some owners there with 10K or so miles now and they haven't reported anything negative, its spooky.
If the new S doesn't get some recognition from JDP or CR when their 07 data comes out then I'm done with the whole reliability issue forever. This about brake dust and what not isn't reliability but still counts in a oh-so-major way, its all going to be beyond irrelevant to me from there on out.
M
Just to clarify, I didn't mean that I consider annecdotal evidence more reliable than surveys (probably the opposite, for me). What I meant was that the annecdotes at this point make the S look better than the survey data. At this point the S is new enough that I treat survey data somewhat skeptically (in part because we have only JDP; CR hasn't chimed in yet). The JDP stuff is acceptable; the annecdotes very good; the average is "good enough for me".
Yeah this is more in line with what I thought you meant. Still though I didn't think you'd care what was said on a German car specific board regarding reliability.
M
Some Volkswagen shareholders suspect the sports-car maker will use its stake to gain leverage over Volkswagen in business deals and decisions on Volkswagen's model lineup. Although the two companies' model portfolios overlap by less than 3%, their vehicles are increasingly in competition with one another. Volkswagen's Audi unit recently launched a sport-utility vehicle called the Q7 that is aimed at some of the same customers of Porsche's Cayenne SUV.
More recently, Volkswagen investors have been riveted by speculation that Porsche might try to carve Audi out of Volkswagen and merge it with Porsche. Audi accounts for half of the full company's operating profit last year.
M