High End Luxury Cars

merc1 · December 2006

I'm waiting for a moderately-equipped production LS460L ($80-85k) vs a moderately-equipped S (mid $90's).

What would be the difference between this and the last test? There would still only be about a 10K price difference, not Lexus' usual 15-20K. In this scenario one of the main things that have carried them to victory is gone - price.

The S maybe a slightly better performer dynamically, but factor in other important factors, luxury features, looks, ergonomics, ride, efficiency, and value, and the LS should STILL come out on top.

The ride advantage is gone or imaginary at best. Even with the last S certain sources that love Lexus said that the S had a better ride. The ride and handling compromise is what is key, not just who is softest, though that won't win Lexus any point anymore either. All the things you speak of were factored in the last time around it didn't make a difference. The S apparently can match the "ride" of the LS with better handling according to C&D. Which means one doesn't have at accept poor handling to get a good "ride".

M

elias · December 2006

hi - who is the dude out there with the cervical spine injury - i'd be interested to email privately re that stuff, having recently recovered from spinal surgery. I too was worried I could never ride again in a monster-torque luxo-car or sports-car due to my spine problems. But now I'm driving a 400ft-lb torque monster again, as well as my VW TDI.
On another hand, a monster luxo-car might be the best for spinal injury/surgery patients, in the event of an impact.
Ok, enough about the spinal stuff and best wishes to all ye luxo-buyers with spinal considerations.
Anyway, I just want to throw in my 2 cents on these luxo cars even though I haven't bought one yet. The most luxo for me was a Y2K Benz E320 *Wagon*. It had fantastic features and ride, but it was by far the least reliable new vehicle I've owned, out of almost 20 vehicles including 1980s Camaros!
My 2 cents on current luxo cars & buyers: some of us luxo or near-luxo buyers prefer to pay an extra $ to the automakers for a diesel or hybrid luxo-car rather than paying more $ to oil producers. Obviously luxo-buyers can afford just about ANY mpg. But that doesn't mean that these buyers are not considering mpg. To the contrary - some luxo-buyers are willing to pay a big premium for the better-mpg (DIESEL especially), even in cases where it does not pay back in terms of fuel-cost-savings.
See you on the highways in your luxo-cruisers, folks!

merc1 · December 2006

This MT comparo is the first true comparison of full production cars and it looks like the LS is still on top and destined to stay there.

Was there a comparo or are you talking about the COTY testing? If it was COTY I must have a different copy because mine clearly states that the LS doesn't beat the S as the luxury car champ. I don't get how you could come up with the LS being on top from that. Even in the caption they state that at best the LS can put up a good fight. Where does it say anything about the LS being on top?

M

syswei · December 2006

Detroit News review

dewey · December 2006

New Lexus sedan: fast, classy - and dull--headline from CNNMoney

The LS 460 began arriving at dealerships in late fall at a starting price of $61,000. Considering all the new technology, that's nearly as good a value as the original 1989 model, which cost $35,000 ($57,500 in today's dollars). Yet my emotions remained curiously unmoved. Perhaps I missed the autobahn more than I thought.

SOURCE:CNN Money

Question: How can there ever be any hope of a High Performance Lexus Division when every single Lexus model is dull? A high performance Lexus is as much an oxymoron as a ultra-luxury VW in the form of a Phaeton.

designman · December 2006

Well I don't blame you for being cynical because as I said in other post that Lexus has proven nothing with performance. This doesn't mean that they can't or shouldn't venture into it. On the other note they could provide more disparity between sport and luxury in a given platform, moreso than the way BMW does it. This way they get to please their solid base of customers. Anyway, even though I am skeptical too I welcome the news.

houdini1 · December 2006

This guy seemed to love everything about the car except:

1. Not enough chrome
2. No piping on leather seats
3. Car was too quiet

And this makes the car dull? Looks like another reviewer who loved the LS but could not bring himself to admit it without pulling his punches!!

I would liken the LS to a top notch athlete who makes everything he does look easy, perhaps boring to some, while his competitors are straining, thrashing around, and making a lot of noise just trying to keep up.

blkhemi · December 2006

I stated that the Lexus is not the #1 contender as it is not the force to be reckoned with like many Lexus buyers would lead one to believe.

The car does most things well. Not excellent. Not even exciting. It's just there.

But that does well for the Lexus core base.

However, I can't concur with you on the LS remaining number one, judging by Toyota's now declining sales across the board in this country for Nov. We'll just have to wait and see if people still see at as the "value" it wants to be.

syswei · December 2006

I can agree that its not a given that the LS will stay #1 in the US. Among other reasons, pricing of the LS, and MB's presumed improvement in reliability. As you said, time will tell.

Toyota's now declining sales across the board in this country for Nov.

Not sure where you got this. TMC's Nov. was up 15.9% yty, and ytd through Nov they were up 12.5%.

link title

syswei · December 2006

BTW the exterior styling of the S is definitely growing on me. I view it as distinctive-looking and preferable (exterior-wise) to the LS. Even with the wheel arches, which I still don't care for. Still haven't driven one, though. The S for me remains a possibility, in AWD trim, along with the A8; I'll decide once AWD is available on the LS460.

tagman · December 2006

The S for me remains a possibility, in AWD trim, along with the A8; I'll decide once AWD is available on the LS460.

When do you anticipate purchasing a HELC?

You have it narrowed down to the S550, A8, and the LS460?...or LS460L?

TagMan

syswei · December 2006

If the LS is available in AWD in late 2007, then probably late 2007. Whether LS460 or 460L depends on options packaging at that time. Next gen 7 series, if offered AWD, might be a possibility, but my inclination is not to purchase a German car so early in its lifecycle. Will there be a new Q45 out by then and will it be AWD? If so, that might be a possibility too.

dewey · December 2006

Why AWD?

Do you live in a rural snowy and mountainous ?

Snow can never stop me from buying RWD. But fortunately I live in a city with no mountains.

tagman · December 2006

From what I understand, there is indeed supposed to be a new 2008 Q from Infiniti, but I have not heard whether or not it will be available as AWD.

TagMan

lexusguy · December 2006

From what I understand, there is indeed supposed to be a new 2008 Q from Infiniti, but I have not heard whether or not it will be available as AWD.

Yeah, considering how close the next Q supposedly is, its surprising that there's still basically no information on it. No concept art, nothing. Apparently they want to keep this one a secret until the last minute.

syswei · December 2006

Southwestern CT. Enough snow that I want AWD. Even in an RX300 AWD I almost slid off the road once.

dewey · December 2006

Since every Infiniti model(other than the dated Q) is available with AWD there really should be no reason why the new Q will not have AWD.

dewey · December 2006

Understandable.

I drove around Vermont during winter with my RWD BMW and it was quite a scary experience.

goodegg · December 2006

What's snow?

blkhemi · December 2006

What I meant was Toyota's goal.

They once again lagged behind the old laggert, GM, albeit not very far off of the mark. The crushed Ford again.

blkhemi · December 2006

The next Q is supposed to get a new-gen AWD system that will be a variation of the current one used in the G35/M35x's.

So Syswei, Lexus pulled out all of the stops with their AWD system by developing a very sophisticated system with a very Audi-like Torsen center diff. Supposed to be the best on the market behind, you guessed it, the A8.

Hopefully they'll release the technology down to the 460 models also.

Karen_S · December 2006

A reporter with a national newspaper is hoping to talk with consumers who have received or are giving a luxury car as a gift for Christmas. Please reply to ctalati@edmunds.com no later than Friday, December 8, 2006 with your daytime contact info.

hpowders · December 2006

Glad you agree but...I do think you like the S driver's seat better.

hpowders · December 2006

No Doc. It really doesn't bug me. I enjoy watching you defend the Lexus position....fruitless, but enjoyable, just the same.

drfill · December 2006

Since you choose not to share my fruit, you will never know how sweet, my friend!

Glad you enjoy the show! Catch you here tomorrow.

Same Lexus time. Same Lexus Station!

So long!

DrFill

hpowders · December 2006

"Whether one chooses any of the five is probably 90% subjective."

Uhh... no.
Not when the objective evidence shows that:

1. C&D couldn't duplicate the Lexus LS460 numbers for 0-60 mph time, among other accelleration numbers; all too slow.

2. The braking distance numbers for the LS460 as reported by C&D are cause for concern (even the devout Lexbyterians among us admit this).

hpowders · December 2006

Probably serving time somewhere for price-gouging.

hpowders · December 2006

Come on now, syswei. Everybody knows the "he said, she said" cutesy "reviews" of those 2 folks in the Detroit News cannot be taken seriously. Wasn't "she" the only one on the planet who reviewed the new MDX recently and didn't like it?

syswei · December 2006

C&D couldn't duplicate the Lexus numbers for 0-60 mph time

C&D also couldn't duplicate something else: the weight of the car. They listed the LS460L's curb weight at 4700 lb. Lexus puts it at 4332 lb. Do you think Lexus is lying?

Or do you think maybe the discrepancy could be due to the fact that C&D tested a pre-production car? And if so, do you think there might, just possibly, be other differences between pre-production and production versions of the LS?

hpowders · December 2006

I don't know about that, doc. I for one am willing to let the fruit slowly ripen rather than throw it out prematurely.

I agree with syswei that if Lexus says it will create a high-performance division, we should give them a chance and see what they can come up with.
I did love the Toyota Supra once upon a time in yesteryear.

They just may come up with some exciting vehicles with prices that would even make Steve gasp!

hpowders · December 2006

Sorry, but I don't think the driving dynamics of a pre-production and production vehicle should be all that different. Maybe the seats aren't as comfortable, but the brakes, steering, turning circle, acceleration and body lean should all be "ballpark."

I trust C&D's findings far more than I would ever trust any car company's published data and that includes BMW as well as Lexus.

tagman · December 2006

C&D also couldn't duplicate something else: the weight of the car. They listed the LS460L's curb weight at 4700 lb. Lexus puts it at 4332 lb. Do you think Lexus is lying?

Unfortunately there was a 368 lb. fat man in the back seat eating a hamburger and listening to the Mark Levinson stereo.

They couldn't eject the guy from the car... So they ran the tests anyway.

This further explains why the car was so slow and the brakes were so bad.

:P

TagMan

hpowders · December 2006

"Toyota already has an established relationship with Lotus, for example, and they know suspensions."

Sure they do. Look what Lotus did to poor cervical spine injury dude.

Anyhow, still waiting to give Lexus the benefit of the doubt on this one since up to now, they have primarily been manufacturing luxury vehicles, ON PURPOSE!

A new Lexus division devoted exclusively to high-end performance vehicles should not be taken lightly, IMO.

laurasdada · December 2006

Snow: A natural (and man-made) substance that forces me to drive in a generally slow, more-controlled manner with the goal of staying in a straight line and avoiding any newfound irregularities in the road.

Ultimately up a mountain road so that I can strap on some 175cm plastic/wood/fiberglass/metal sticks to my feet, which are entombed in heavy plastic/fabric/metal boots. So that I may hurtle down an even higher elevation on the aforementioned beautiful natural and man-made substance in a seemingly uncontrolled manner. Often seeking out surface irregularities and rarely skiing in a straight line. And very fast but for the most part, like driving, in control! And unlike while driving my car in the snow, I will intentionally head into the woods!

I enjoy driving, even in the snow. I love skiing, especially in the snow! Long live Northern New England!!!

Any questions?

hpowders · December 2006

I think Lexus should spend less time on creating bad commercials (although Cadillac's condescendingly stupid navigation spot is the worst auto commercial I have ever seen) and more time on getting their numbers straight.

tagman · December 2006

I think Lexus should spend less time on creating bad commercials ... and more time on getting their numbers straight.

Just think what it would be like if people were to constantly praise themselves the way Lexus praises itself (especially the halftime show, eh?), the words conceit and self- admiration would fall short by a country mile.

So, tell me...does Lexus actually know the true weight of their cars or not?

TagMan

merc1 · December 2006

BTW the exterior styling of the S is definitely growing on me. I view it as distinctive-looking and preferable (exterior-wise) to the LS. Even with the wheel arches, which I still don't care for. Still haven't driven one, though. The S for me remains a possibility, in AWD trim, along with the A8; I'll decide once AWD is available on the LS460.

I remember you saying something about the reliability of the S when you were looking at the Q7? Are you hearing anything about the S at the dealer level as far as reliability goes?

M

merc1 · December 2006

Glad you agree but...I do think you like the S driver's seat better.

Better than the A8? Maybe, maybe not. I think each respective seat fits the character of the car. The A8 is just so sheek and modern while the Mercedes is more classic luxury brought up to date.

I do know that that the S and A8 are my favorite sedans in this segment by far right now. The next 7 has got to be better looking in order to get on the list. Blkhemi has one hell of a garage, but I'd have a S8 and a CL550 to balance things out.

M

merc1 · December 2006

I seriously doubt a pre-production car would add 400lbs to the curb weight. As a matter of fact I know it wouldn't. The discrepancy is that the LS460L tested was loaded with options including whichever one takes up trunk space. I see people on the LS board talking about this, which option are they talking about? Plus C&D weighs cars fully gassed so their numbers are always going to be more than the manufacturer's number.

M

merc1 · December 2006

Probably serving time somewhere for price-gouging.

I sure hate he isn't hear to see this. He went on and on about how Lexus should match BMW and Audi in price and they did just that, but still staying below Mercedes, though not by as much as in previous years. He got exactly what he wanted.

M

syswei · December 2006

Are you hearing anything about the S at the dealer level as far as reliability goes?

No, haven't gotten that far...remember, any decision for me is probably a year away. I have only seen the JDP data (barely acceptable, but still in the acceptable range, from my point of view) and your and blkhemi's commentary (based I guess on annecdotes from the germancarfan-type forums, and blkhemi's S), which is better.

syswei · December 2006

The discrepancy is that the LS460L tested was loaded with options including whichever one takes up trunk space.

The weighty options would be the rear A/C unit and the reclining rear seat. A room A/C unit such as a 6000 BTU Sharp designed to cool roughly 2000 cubic feet (compared to 103 cu ft for the entire LS)...weighs 50 pounds. A reclining seat? When folded, it is the same size as a regular seat. So we are talking about some extra metal and small electric motors. How much weight could that possibly add?

I'd be surprised if the extra equipment added more than 100-150 lbs. But even if it is 368 lb, should C&D, since it is so performance-leaning in its comparo, even be testing the heaviest possible configuration? If performance is the goal, why not test a more mainstream, lighter configuration? Not that the LS would have come out #1 with a production unit sans weighty stuff, but it might have done better than finishing behind 2 cars that the LS430 had beaten in the past.

merc1 · December 2006

Well I see your point about the weight, but this test wasn't based solely on peformance either. The BMW would have won if that were really what they were looking for as the top criteria. Sure performance is what put the Jaguar and BMW over the Lexus, but in the case of the S it was all around competence. It had the ride and performance balance down just right in C&D's opinion. That is pretty much what I've said about Mercedes' larger/more expensive vehicles since day one. Other segments vary and MB takes their lumps there.

As far as testing the lightest version that would have been out of sync with the others, all of them were top of the line, pretty much loaded, LWB models. I usually don't get into curb weights given by manufacturers because almost all of them go for a stripped down car when reporting curb weights on their repsective websites.

M

merc1 · December 2006

and your and blkhemi's commentary (based I guess on annecdotes from the germancarfan-type forums, and blkhemi's S), which is better.

Wow...didn't exepect that. Everything I've seen on MBWorld for example says Mercedes has turned the corner with the S and only the S. The GL, not. There isn't a single "problem" thread on the whole board regarding the 07' S-Class, yet the W220 section is of course filled with them. There are some owners there with 10K or so miles now and they haven't reported anything negative, its spooky.

If the new S doesn't get some recognition from JDP or CR when their 07 data comes out then I'm done with the whole reliability issue forever. This about brake dust and what not isn't reliability but still counts in a oh-so-major way, its all going to be beyond irrelevant to me from there on out.

M

syswei · December 2006

Wow...didn't exepect that.

Just to clarify, I didn't mean that I consider annecdotal evidence more reliable than surveys (probably the opposite, for me). What I meant was that the annecdotes at this point make the S look better than the survey data. At this point the S is new enough that I treat survey data somewhat skeptically (in part because we have only JDP; CR hasn't chimed in yet). The JDP stuff is acceptable; the annecdotes very good; the average is "good enough for me".

merc1 · December 2006

What I meant was that the annecdotes at this point make the S look better than the survey data.

Yeah this is more in line with what I thought you meant. Still though I didn't think you'd care what was said on a German car specific board regarding reliability.

M

dewey · December 2006

Will the CEO of Porsche flex his muscles at VW and scoop up Audi from VW's arms? Interestingly VW Chairman Piech whose family owns most of the control shares of Porsche would be the biggest benefactor of such a move? Sounds like a potential conflict of interest to me? Rumors from today's Wall Street Journal. :

Some Volkswagen shareholders suspect the sports-car maker will use its stake to gain leverage over Volkswagen in business deals and decisions on Volkswagen's model lineup. Although the two companies' model portfolios overlap by less than 3%, their vehicles are increasingly in competition with one another. Volkswagen's Audi unit recently launched a sport-utility vehicle called the Q7 that is aimed at some of the same customers of Porsche's Cayenne SUV.

More recently, Volkswagen investors have been riveted by speculation that Porsche might try to carve Audi out of Volkswagen and merge it with Porsche. Audi accounts for half of the full company's operating profit last year.

merc1 · December 2006

I tend to ignore these stories about Porsche nowadays. There is something new everyday it seems and none of it every turns out to be anything significant. Porsche can't run Audi, Audi is too big. They'd be wise to not let old man Piech run wild with them. You see what he did with VW, nearly destroyed them trying to take them into segments in which they had no business. Porsche just needs to grow their own brand keep friends/partnerships in place and/or form new ones when needed, but taking over Audi would be a total mistake, IMO of course.

M

hpowders · December 2006

I am partial to the A8 myself although I wish the center console was a bit further away from my right leg.

hpowders · December 2006

Can you imagine the prices for any Lexus "performance division" vehicles that make it to market? Probably will make a BMW M look like a bargain in comparison.

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