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Comments
BMW acquisition of Rover, blowing billions out the door;
MB acquisition of Chrysler, only worse now that it is clear no synergy is to be found if the company decides not to share platform at all.
I wonder when the captains of the industry are going to wake up and realize that by the time a mass marketeer is weak enough to be acquired by a niche marketeer, in a sort of reserve buy-out, the volume car maker must be so weakened that it's nearly hopeless. Perhaps they are just too enamored with their own empire building.
If Toyotas aren't reliable, what are they?
Toyota=Walmart
Have they ever been seen in the same place?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Toyota is increasing volume due to, try this on for size: customer demand! Not to diminish the reliability issue, but the so-called reliability issue with Toyota nowadays still makes Toyota far more reliable than the supposedly less-troublesome-now MB and BMW.
Interesting attempt at trying to tie Toyota with Walmart. For what it's worth, Walmart parking lots seem to over-represent domestics and old Euro cars. Go figure. Also, BMW, MB and especially Audi are far ahead of Toyota in setting up production lines in China. So there. Not that outsourcing to orgin of lowest production cost like Walmart does is intrinsicly wrong, but if you term that "Walmart" as a derogatory adjective, the Euro's are second to none in "Walmarting."
What makes Walmart such a huge success is its advanced inventory management system, a data base system supposedly second only to NSA! That's why Walmart was able to deliver goods more efficient than its competitors when Sam was alive and touting "made in America"; and again deliver goods more efficiently than its competitors when everyone is outsourcing to China. It's the just-in-time delivery system for retailers, if you will. Sound familiar? That's what Toyota Production System is in the manufacturing world. The Euro's seem to have copied the cheapness of Walmart in outsourcing to China without copying the real strong point of Walmart as the world's top distributor.
I believe any Toyota/Lexus executive when they say they don't want to be #1. I believe them when they say the IS 350/250 is a 3 series fighter. I believe consumer reports, and the Bush administration. I believe Clinton didn't have "relations'" with that woman.
If Toyota's aren't reliable, what are they?
If Walmart sells a crappy product, that makes it Walmart.
Lets face it, the majority of HELC cars sold outside the US/North America are chauffer-driven, for two very simple reasons:
1. The same cars are usually sold at prices higher than US prices, and the local wages are lower than US wages. When the car costs $150k, and it costs only $10k a year or less to hire a chauffer, heck why not hire a chaufffer? It would be senseless to expose oneself to accident lawsuits when the first item of evidence, the car itself, would severely prejudice the case against the owner-driver. The chauffer provides a cheap liability insurance.
2. Public roads are much narrower outside North America, and gas prices are a lot higher. So it would make no sense whatsoever to have a LWD HELC if the intention is to be driving it yourself.
S-class were/are the quitessential chauffer/livery cars the world over. That's why S280 used to be so popular, with some well known celebrities dying in them.
If Toyota wanted to be #1 in volume per se, there are plenty easy things that they could do to achieve that goal. For one thing, they would not be raising prices. They'd also consider underwriting more favorable lease or finance terms. Obviously they are not doing that because they are out to maximize long-term profit not some short-term ranking.
If Toyota's aren't reliable, what are they?
They are just far more reliable than MB, BMW and VW/Audi.
If Walmart sells a crappy product, that makes it Walmart.
Then MB, BMW and VW/Audi have been playing Walmart for years.
BMW's acquisiton of Rover was a disaster. Who doesn't know that?
MB's acquisiton of Chrysler was a disaster. Who doesn't know that?
The Oman Times is not a credible automotive source. Who doesn't know that? Except maybe you?
Do you honestly believe that Oman will be selling spanking new LS430s when Toyota has already discontinued manufaturing them? Also do you honestly believe that almost every luxury vehicle in Japan is Chauffeur driven? Bunk! Chauffeur-driven luxury vehicles are just as rare in Japan as they are here in North America. I was merely spoofing that ridiculous Oman Times story--but it appears you did not know that :P
Yes Lexus shares platforms with Toyota. Again who doesn't know that?
Thanks for confirming what we already know. And there is no need to apologize unless you insist.
LOL ... good public relations move... politically correct, in fact. But, unfortunately you took the hook, line and sinker.
TagMan
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
TagMan
Projecting one's own Napoleonic Complex never gets very far.
The point being? LOL
"If you wish to be success in the world, promise everything, deliver nothing." Napolean.
Sorry, but that is hardly the Sam Walton approach. :shades:
TagMan
ALthough I do credit the NY Times for being astute enough to distinguish a Lexus LS430 from a Lexus LS460.
Due to a tight budget I think The Oman Times auto reporter is also their renowned horoscope and Middle East reporter :confuse:
ScotsMan
What is the point of all those overpriced HELC safety features when you cant fight Fate? If you are of a specific astrological sign then you may end up being doomed to get into a car accident anyways:
Had a car crash? It's all in the stars, study says
By Naomi Kim
TORONTO, Dec 13 (Reuters Life!) - Never mind how careful you are behind the wheel or how long you've been driving, the signs of the zodiac may be bigger factors behind your ability to avoid car crashes -- or why you have too many.
According to a study by InsuranceHotline.com, a Web site that quotes drivers on insurance rates, astrological signs are a significant factor in predicting car accidents.
The study, which looked at 100,000 North American drivers' records from the past six years, puts Libras (born September 23-October 22) followed by Aquarians (January 20-February 18) as the worst offenders for tickets and accidents
Leos (July 23-August 22) and then Geminis (May 21-June 20) were found to be the best overall.
"I was absolutely shocked by the results," said Lee Romanov, president of Toronto-based InsuranceHotline.com, who also wrote the book "Car Carma" which touches on the correlation between astrological signs and driving ability while doing the study.
Romanov originally wanted to have some fun by examining astrological signs as a possible cause for the variance between insurance companies quoting high and low rates but didn't expect to find anything interesting.
"Now, changing postal codes is far less significant to me than drivers of certain astrological signs," she told Reuters on Wednesday.
Even age, another variable for determining insurance rates, is less of a consideration to Romanov. The cutoff line for being considered a higher risk driver is 24 years of age; 25-year-olds are considered not-high risk.
"I'd rather get into a car with a 24-year-old Leo than a 25-year-old Aries," Romanov said.
Leos, described along with the study results on InsuranceHotline.com/a10.html, are "generous, and comfortable in sharing the roadway."
Aries, on the other hand, "have a 'me first' childlike nature that drives Aries into trouble."
"I wasn't believing in it before," said Romanov, "but I would think twice before getting into a car with an Aries."
First, let me say it was great to see a post from ljflx, even if it was only to tell us why he wasn't likely to be posting here again soon. Len, I sure wish you would change your mind on that. Brightness has had a hard time fighting Merc and Tag on basic financial issues without you! We need your financial acumen.
Second, I found the recent CD review extremely questionable in this respect: Merc, forget the S, which is indeed a new model and may be a better car than the LS from this reviewer's point of view. But how did the new LS come out below old models of the Jag and the Audi that its predecessor beat previously? For that to happen, the new LS460 would have to be a worse car than the old LS430. Does anyone believe that a comparison of those two cars would have the LS430 come out way on top? The only real issue with the LS460 I saw was the braking distance, but somehow you have to believe that something was wrong with the tested car; maybe it was due to pre-production, maybe the tires, maybe some computer adjustment was needed - do we really believe that Lexus intended to come out with a car that was substantially worse in braking than any of its competitors, and all other cheaper Lexus models? "Hiro-san, didn't you try out the brakes in a test car before releasing for production?" "No, Senior Engineer-san, I thought you said you did it! Oops!"
Blkhemi, all this talk about the cheap plastic in the interior of the LS460; do you really mean to say that Lexus went from higher quality materials in the LS430 to lower quality materials in the LS460L? I haven't seen one close up myself yet, so maybe it's true, but again it seems hard to believe.
Finally, the old lease/purchase LS/S debate rises once again from the dead. Brightness, you are so correct on this that it hurts my head to read the rebuttals that don't rebut anything. The only argument on the other side that makes any sense at all is Merc's continued challenge that no one has provided any proof that the overwhelming majority of HELCs are leased, so MSRP differences must be relevant (I'm sure he will say I am misparaphrasing, so I apologize in advance). First, just go ask any MB dealer what percentage of his S sales are leases and you'll get the answer; and it will be very high. Further proof is found by looking at the December promotions on both MB's and Lexus' web sites, and tell me what deals are there other than leasing deals.
But more important is that even on the purchase side, look at the discount from MSRP you could get on the LS430 vs. the discount from MSRP on the S430 when both were towards the end of their cycles: the LS dealer cost was a much bigger percentage below MSRP than S dealer cost. And guess what, it's still true on the LS460L vs. the S550! Look at Edmunds and you can see for yourself. Bottom line: when the dust settles and supply and demand are back in balance for both the LS and the S, the true cost of purchase of an LS versus an S will be greater than the difference between their MSRPs. But the difference in lease costs will be relatively smaller, which is relevant to many more people. In any case, the MSRPs will be irrelevant to everyone except the car reviewers.
thank you for telling us who has a high acumen and who doesnt have a high acumen in these forums
Thank you for congratulating members in this forum and pooh poohing other members of this forum.
Thank you for providing us with your lease/purchase LS/S and CD test drive views especially when they cannot be verified with facts.
I do respect your views and it is so nice of you to join us. But we forum members here do not need to be spoon fed by your opinions on who is right and who is wrong. Thanks but no thanks our acumen is high enough to make those kinds of judgements ourselves.
Now how about discussing HELCs instead of forum members. How's that for a radical notion :P
http://www.InsuranceHotline.com/a10.html
ACCIDENTS – from worst to best
Libra - Worst
Scorpio
Capricorn
Aries
Aquarius
Sagittarius
Pisces
Taurus
Virgo
Gemini
Cancer
Leo – Best
Here's another source:
http://www.suncorp.com.au/suncorp/news/2002/feb_10_2.html
ACCIDENTS – from worst to best
Gemini - Worst
Taurus
Pisces
Virgo
Cancer
Aquarius
Aries
Leo
Libra
Sagittarius
Scorpio
Capricorn - Best
LOL. Good advice for all of us. Including...yourself.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Never did I say the LS shares a platform with a Toyota.
The IS, GS, LS, and SC were mentioned as being the only Lexus models to own their platforms singularly, albeit the LS was sold as a Toyota(in limited quantities, no doubt) in it's homeland Japan up until last year.
This was all to disprove the notion that Lexus is not without sharing, as some of the faithful have eluded to report. In fact, they're the only current luxury company that has 3 or more variants based off of lower-end models.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I'll post once more in response to a great post by you. I asked both questions of lease vs buy to two local MB dealers and my local Lexus guy. The answer was 90-95% lease vs buy on the S-class (the dealers tell and encourage the customers to lease because it's a better deal and they want the renrewal 3 years later) and 80-20 on the LS (they also want that renewal but Lexus let's the dealers subsidize leases due to the higher bandwidth of dealer invoice and MSRP. So if you live in a competitive dealer area with a less hot car you will be a lot luckier than those of us who don't. I'm going to have to deposit this car 60 days before lease end just to get one so forget about any negotiation here.) But there have been more people buying the LS460L than normal in lease/buy ratios because Lexus is being conservative on the LS 460L lease right now. Everytime I run numbers on the highest end lux cars buying 3 years after leasing is as good a deal or better than buying up front and that's assuming you buy at the lease deal price. Many buy many thousands lower, particularly on the German cars because the market hasn't supported lease buy out residuals. It's why many banks exited the lease car business because they got killed on such residuals. Anyone buying upfront is missing the better business deal in my view and it's amazing to me that folks on the board can't see thru or accept lease marketing of cars. In summary from my viewpoint there is a big difference between the German approach and the Lexus pproach. The Germans want control and discount thru leases thus the low amount of invoice to MSRP. Lexus goes the other way and lets the dealer have control thus the higher variance in MSRP and invoice both in absolute dollars and percentage of MSRP, the latter is where the differences with the Germans are very large.
A for the C&D review it's also amazing here that people think Lexus buyers reject it for any reason other than logic and common sense. The LS430 would have beaten the LS460 by a light year according to them and you'd need a Fred Flintstone breaking system to stop the car. Sure. As I stated earlier if I missed a cross check on checks and balances of earlier results like that in finance (and you in law for the same reason) I'd be fired on the spot.
As for me I'm long done with the infighting and team approach. I'll never post in that regard again.
Last time I checked, my Vette Z06 was rated as having 49/51 weight transferance.
The Porsche's 38/62 split is fine good for planting power to the ground, which it does an admirable job, especially in Carrera 4 models, but the nose does tend to wander a bit during some high-speed maneuvers, something that has plagued 911's for quite sometime. This, however, isn't noticed by most drivers as most cars don't ever see a track.
Porsche knows this, and they've been talking quite sometime about doing something about it. They may very well take the 911 mid-engined, as the rear seats are basically useless, but I do believe that front-engine is not completely out of the equation.
First, Porsche loves being a small car company. They thrive on it. That explains the hesitance of the Cayenne to market and the even longer hesitance for a performance sedan. In reality, Porsche wants to share engineering, not production volume, with VW/Audi. They are actually under way as we speak on developing a Porsche-exclusive DSG box. Much speculation as aroused over Porsche courting Audi to help with the Panamerica performance sedan and it's drive/suspension systems.
Lastly, Audi is no more "interwined" with VW as Lexus is with Toyota as MB is with Chrysler. As for parts bins and platforms are concerned, the only tie in the system now is the A4. And with it's major RWD '08 redo, that will be null and void. Yes the Phaeton is loosely based on A8, but it's all steel and only shares it's powertrain. And again, the '08 A8 will erase all of that.
As stable a company Porsche is, why would they take on VW's many problems? Labour, quality messes, lawsuits and much else comes with it's territory, something that is very foreign to Porsche.
They just want a little help on the development front, and who any better than Audi to help?
What I was merely stating on the LS460's plastics is that they do in fact feel cheaper than that of the LS430's. I can't be sure if it's the graining technique in which they applied to the surfaces of the plastics, but it does not look substainial, especially if you're faced with a fully loaded LS460L example of $94k.
Will most LS buyers care about this? Heck no, but from my observation, they could've taken a better approach on the IP. But Lexus being Lexus, I'm sure this will disappear next year as they don't let loose tags hang for long.
Gary's prayers have finally been answered and the financial savior of Edmunds has been resurrected to bless us with his appearance today.
So Ljflx I hope the faithful today dont mind if I question some of your inspiring quotes? Pardon me for being such an agnostic.
I'll post once more in response to a great post by you. I asked both questions of lease vs buy to two local MB dealers and my local Lexus guy. The answer was 90-95% lease vs buy on the S-class (the dealers tell and encourage the customers to lease because it's a better deal and they want the renrewal 3 years later) and 80-20 on the LS (they also want that renewal but Lexus let's the dealers subsidize leases due to the higher bandwidth of dealer invoice and MSRP
So is your survey above comprehensive enough to make a conclusion about the LS/S lease vs. buy topic? No it is not! Your argument is quite meaningless without a larger number of dealers being surveyed.
Anyone buying upfront is missing the better business deal in my view and it's amazing to me that folks on the board can't see thru or accept lease marketing of cars.
No I think your above quote is missing the point of view of the buyer himself. How long does the buyer want to keep the car and does he like living under the terms of a lease can make or break the advantages of any lease deal.
A for the C&D review it's also amazing here that people think Lexus buyers reject it for any reason other than logic and common sense. The LS430 would have beaten the LS460 by a light year according to them and you'd need a Fred Flintstone breaking system to stop the car. Sure. As I stated earlier if I missed a cross check on checks and balances of earlier results like that in finance (and you in law for the same reason) I'd be fired on the spot.
I think most of the comparison reviews between the LS and S were based on the honest opinions of the reviewers themselves. Such kind of honesty can lead to a promotion and unfortunately sometimes a demotion in finance.
It isn't just Car and Driver. It is any review that doesn't put the LS460 in the best light. What about Automobile who picked the S over the LS for the 2007 All-Stars list? You've used that as selling point of the LS430 in the past when it made the list. Now the list doesn't matter? What about all the other reviews that have been less than glowing about the LS. Forget the newspaper and other non-automotive sources, just look at the automotive sources, they haven't been singing the praises of the LS either. The only review that you've accepted as being "right" about the LS is Cnet. If you've got to rely on a review from a group of folks who don't test cars for a living then that is pretty desperate. All these years Car and Driver was right on the money, but now they're clueless. Yet in the past when they compared a brand new LS with the competition and they used a pre-production LS400 and LS430 there wasn't a problem. There has never been a more clear case of not liking what is being said and choosing to ignore it.
If you look at the C&D review the only things that would be different had they used a production car would have been the brakes. The trunk space, handling and other things they didn't like wouldn't be any different.
This about the LS430 beating the LS460 is pure nonsense. The LS430 was compared to a different Jaguar and a different Mercedes, why can't you allow that at least 2 of the cars in that comparo have moved the game on, especially a brand new S-Class? Production or not, with that many faults (according to C&D) the LS460L still wouldn't have won. Production status doesn't change trunk space or handling. Now I know you'll say those things don't matter of course.
What about the other reviews that haven't been as glowing as the LS430's were back when? It isn't just C&D, I don't know why Lexus fans can't see that.
You can't see that for 93K (in this test) the Lexus was only 10K less than the superior driving, better performing Benz? Lexus can't be priced that close and deliever a mediocre driving experience and expect to win. Lexus used to have at least a 15 if not 20K price advantage. Now you guys tell me that 10K doesn't make a difference at this level because of leasing and what not so why should it count in a comparo. Either 10K matter or it doesn't. You can't have it both ways.
I'll give you that a new LS being placed behind cars that it beat previously is something to wonder about, sure, but not with a new Mercedes. That to me suggest that Car and Driver put more emphasis on actual driving this time around.
It is clear that with the worldwide praise that the new S has received since its launch is that it has moved the game on much farther than some here want to believe, especially compared the previous S.
M
I would give you this one for the S, Merc, but in the objective categories the Audi actually won, not the S. In the combined and VERY SUBJECTIVE "Got to have it" and "Fun to Drive" categories the S out scored the Audi by 2 points to eak out a 1 point win. Talk about a rigged test from the start. They should investigate how much Mercedes paid C&D for this one.
The buying public will be the final arbitor on which is the most desired and best car, and we all know the LS will win that one.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Well apparently Lexus thinks LWB buyers want it all because that is the only LS model that they offer the sportier setup on isn't it? Too bad this particular LS didn't have it. Secondly the test was not about finding the sportiest car, otherwise the BMW or the Audi would have one. You kill me with this excuse making by painting the test out to be as simplistic as finding the best handling car with a Benz finishing #1, when we all know BMW makes a better handling car. It was all around competence that put the S and A8 at the top. If it were about sheer handling, the 750Li would be #1.
I would give you this one for the S, Merc, but in the objective categories the Audi actually won, not the S. In the combined and VERY SUBJECTIVE "Got to have it" and "Fun to Drive" categories the S out scored the Audi by 2 points to eak out a 1 point win. Talk about a rigged test from the start. They should investigate how much Mercedes paid C&D for this one.
Yeah by one point, which is also what it lost by. WOW, someone call the conspiracy police. True it could have gone either way but this pay off stuff is pure de nonsense, otherwise you need to phone Toyota and ask them whey their Lexus division got so tight with their pocketbook after years and years of paying C&D off. Makes sense to me.
The A8 has proven to be a tough competitor not just in American mags but in some European ones also where it has taken a victory or two over the new S based on price, standard AWD etc, so I have no problem with it winning, but this conspiracy nonsense is just that.
The buying public will be the final arbitor on which is the most desired and best car, and we all know the LS will win that one.
Right, thanks to a cheapo SWB model that starts out in the low 60K range where no S even comes close to playing.
M
Thank you for congratulating members in this forum and pooh poohing other members of this forum.
Dewey, so sorry that you read my post as personal attacks. That was certainly not my intent, and never has been.
I certainly don't pretend to have the same depth of knowledge about auto engineering as even the least of the other regular posters here; the only thing I try to add with my occasional posts is applying some rigorous logic (probably the result of my legal training) to discussions that sometimes seem to go off point, or worse, devolve into partisan positioning. Oh, and I do profess to also have some knowledge about finance (I run one of the top-50 independent securities broker-dealers in the US). But I stay involved here mostly to learn from the other posters - definitely including you - and to be entertained by the community's banter.
I re-read my post and frankly don't see how I "pooh poohed" anyone. I did compliment ljflx's knowledge of finance, and inferred that I agreed with brightness04 about what he was saying about the significance of leasing, but I didn't say anything bad about anyone.
Anyway, from the other responses to my post, it looks like other people read it in the light it was intended. Again, sorry if you took it otherwise. Yikes, I can't imagine how you'll respond if I ever have the temerity to say I disagree with you about something.
Now back to HELCs.....
Thanks very much for the "welcome back" (I'll wear the badge of Great Moderate proudly) and for the clarification on the interior materials in the 460L. I definitely will have to check this out for myself at some point. The problem is I never get to the Lexus dealer to look at the new cars; whenever my '05 LS430 needs routine maintenance (it has never needed any other service except for a computer refresh to fix the "hesitation" problem, which was done at the same time as the first free oil change), the dealer sends someone to me, leaves me a free Lexus loaner, picks up my car and services it, then returns it and takes back the loaner. Certainly part of the Lexus ownership experience that will be hard to give up in the future.
Hey, I agree that the S is winning the "Battle of the Comps". But I think the S and the LS are the only totally new models since the December 2003 C&D comp. I don't believe there is a totally new Jaguar since then - am I wrong on that? The car previously tested was the Mark 3, which had hit the showrooms in the Fall of 2002. Yes, they tested the Super 8 version this time, so perhaps that made the difference?
I'll give you that a new LS being placed behind cars that it beat previously is something to wonder about, sure, but not with a new Mercedes.
That was my point exactly. We agree. But that doesn't take away from the S coming out on top. Still, it is a shame that they didn't test the LS with the Touring Package, and then gave it demerits for the small trunk that only comes into play if you fill up the back seat with features that no other competitor has.
Not arguing anything Dewey and I asked without any survey in mind thank you. You take this stuff way too seriously. If you think most of the buying public buys or that even 40-50% buy them then God bless and go on thinking that. I hardly think so and I don't know anyone who HASN'T leased one of these cars everytime they face a decision. The whole business model is set up for lease and most of the people are smart enough in business to see that and take advantage of it. There comes a time when you accept what makes sense. I'm only talking the S, LS and that group but my instinct is that most lux cars are leased not bought for many of the same reasons. These are also leases with the option to buy and you can buy out anytime you want. To me you're a prisoner if you buy not the other way around.
So what was the purpose of your sarcasm anyway. It was uncalled for.
Yikes, I can't imagine how you'll respond if I ever have the temerity to say I disagree with you about something.
Gary - you can see why my posts will be very rare around here. The tone and sarcasm is ridiculous. I don't have much desire to stay with it.
Tag - I know you want some balance but I think based on the tones seen today you're don't have much supporta on this.
I don't think you're being fair to most of the people on this forum, because imho, when you were a regular here, your tone and civility level might not have been bottom of the heap, but they weren't top of the heap either. That's the way I remember it, and I wasn't even on the receiving end, generally. If you disagree, you're welcome to rejoin us permanently and show us all just how wrong I am.
I have to say that I think the lease/purchase equation is different when dealing with a Lexus than when dealing with a Benz. I paid cash for my LS for 3 reasons: (1) I could negotiate a 11% discount off of MSRP, (2) there were no heavily subsidized lease deals at the time (it was not in December), and (3) my intention was to keep the car until maintenance costs got too high, which I assumed would be a long time. None of those 3 factors applied to the S430 I was also considering at the time; on that car, your analysis was exactly the way it looked to me.
Dewey, if you look at my first post, you'll see that I said the argument that had some credence was that there was no "scientific" evidence anyone had presented here on lease rates. But when you have anecdotal evidence that is so one-sided, unless there is some reason to believe Len's dealer is an outlier (say it was in Dubai), it becomes the best available indication of reality, and can't be ignored.
I can't prove the sun will come up tomorrow either.....
Happy Holidays to all of you, your families, your friends, your loved ones!
2001gs430 – Capricorn
AnthonyP – Gemini
Autoedu - Taurus
Blckislandguy - Leo
Blkhemi – Gemini
Brightness04 – Aries
Cdpinhead – Gemini
Cyclone4 – Aquarius
Dewey – Pisces
Dhamilton – Gemini
Drfill – Pisces
Esf – Aquarius
Garyh1 – Libra
Houdini1 – Cancer
Hpowders – Leo
KarenS – Sagittarius
Kirstie_h – Aquarius
Laurasdada – Aries
Lexusguy – Virgo
Ljflx – Capricorn
Merc1 – Taurus
Nvbanker – Leo
Oac – Leo
Pat – Libra
Pearl - Capricorn
Reality2 – Scorpio
Syswei – Sagittarius
Tagman – Libra
;-)
Nope you're correct, the Jaguar is the same as before, they just used a longer, more powerful version.
That was my point exactly. We agree. But that doesn't take away from the S coming out on top.
M
Either you're really good, pretty lucky, or have access to LLSOC.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
1) Len I neither agree or disagree with your views about how lease deals make financial sense. That all depends on the lease deal itself. Some of the lease deals I saw makes more financial sense for the dealer than the buyer.
I dont lease because I was never offered a tempting subsidized lease deal on a car that I really wanted to buy. Also I have no plans of selling my cars until passneger capacity falls behind the growth of my kids (which may happen sooner than I think).
2) But when you have anecdotal evidence that is so one-sided, unless there is some reason to believe Len's dealer is an outlier (say it was in Dubai), it becomes the best available indication of reality, and can't be ignored.
Anecdotal evidence that is one-sided may not be true at all. Unfortaunately these lease/buy arguments that recur in this forum like clockwork can never be substantiated.
You can beat me in an argument when you say Lexus LS beats the BMW 7 series in terms of reliability. In that case you have various surveys(CR, JD, Strategic Vision) that will back up your argument. In fact we are better off arguing about astrology and driving habits since there have been extensive surveys done on that matter. But unfortunately anecdotal lease/buy evidence is just not going to cut it here.
A Taurus does not belong in this forum. A Lincoln maybe, but certainly not a Taurus.
No I am not a fish. I am a Gemini. The worst driver according to the SunCorp Metway survey and one of the best drivers according to the InsuranceHotLine study.(it's really tough when you are twins).
1) The quote about the LS below is a quote that has been repeated like a mantra among auto reviewers over and over and over again. The LS hit 60 miles (100km) in 7.3 second. Not impressive at all!
Where the LS 460L loses points is that it is less a driver's car and more a conveyance that transports its occupants in a sybaritic (i.e. the shiatsu massage seat) capsule as quiet and isolating as a tomb. Sure, the 380 horsepower, 4.6-litre V8 will get going when the throttle is mashed (zero to 100 kilometres per hour in 7.3 seconds), but that somehow seems declasse.
The Lexus is the perfect car for chauffeuring rulers of countries or rich captains of industry.
Price as tested: $122,700.
And below is a quote about the MB S Class that has been repeated among auto reviewers like a mantra over and over again:
2)The S550 has the best combination of styling, power and class of the trio. It won't match the S8 on a race circuit, but the Merc is no slacker. A 382 horsepower, 5.4-litre V8 propels the S550 - the longest and heaviest of the three - from zero to 100 km/h in the same time as the Audi S8, although it's 0.6 seconds slower when accelerating to 120 km/h from 80 km/h. And its 4Matic system is a match for Audi's quattro.
Where the S550 pulls away, especially from the S8, is in quality. The Mercedes personifies the purest form of luxury of the trio; it is solid and substantial, and effortless in everything it does. Exterior-wise, the S550 is as conservative as a Savile Row suit, albeit with stylish touches the equivalent of a bright red rose pinned to the lapel. Inside, the cabin is impressive, laid out in black leather and dark walnut burl, set off by chrome switches and controls that are all clearly marked and laid out - after one takes a few seconds to acclimatize - in a logical manner.
Full of features but without the gimmicks, the S550 is the perfect conveyance for those who are comfortable with their wealth.
Quickie:
You are moving at an unconsciously high speed. Are you leaving people behind?
Overview:
It's a good time to poke your head outside again. A fortuitous influence is now in your celestial sector, and it's time for you to live it up. It's a welcome change of pace, so get out there and enjoy it.
The speed thing must refers to your Porsche.