I think the SC and Solara convertible look more alike from the rear rather than the front. I really like the "almost good looking" comment. You could also say, almost not ugly.
Totally different lines, proportions, shapes and details. The only SLIGHT resemblance is the trunk and spoiler. Now show the front.
“I really like the "almost good looking" comment. You could also say, almost not ugly.”
Not quite. “almost good looking” is a compliment coming from me. I actually think the SC430 is a decent piece of work. It has a Great Gatsby flair. Throw on your cream linen suit, fedora and two-tone brown and white wingtip shoes. The only things that ruin it are those tulip-shaped tail lights. Finesse them and the spoiler. Better yet, lose the spoiler and tweak the trunk lid. The earlier lid on the white car looks better. Yeah, a little work on the butt and it’s home. That’s if you’d rather spend $63k on luxury as opposed to a real sports car like the Boxster S. But hey, you’ve heard it before different strokes. BTW those shots in stark flat light don’t do it justice.
The Solara has too many strange, dissonant, bug-like shapes. Reminds me more of the ES with that catwalk beltline.
Hm, guess we'll have to disagree there. Lexus said they benchmarked the XK8 when designing the SC430, which you can see in the interior, but while the XK is long, low, and sleek, the SC is short and stubby. To me it still looks like a blubbery version of an Audi TT. Unfortunately it appears that the SC "refresh" is even more subtle than the 2001 GS, so it remains off my list.
Truthfully I've always found the SC430 to be an interesting car. I may have posted that before somewhere. My first look at the SC430 was at Lexus dealer in Nashville right after they hit the ground. They had a color called Amethyst that I found striking on the car. That combined with the Black interior looked pretty good to me at the time.......almost enough for the SC430 to make the Merc1 preferred list. Even today when I see one in a darker color with the right aftermaket wheel I still find it "interesting". What I can't stand is that light color interior will all that silver plastic, yellow wood, beige leather and black trim all clashing together. It screams we tried to hard and ended up with gaudy and garish. Sweet interior materials though, but poor style in that configuration.
Well take care all.....see you back in this space in a week. To all a happy, motoring 4th.
The article doesnt mention how much either clean diesel engines or clean diesel itself, is going to cost. If we dont get the kind of tax incentives to go diesel that Europe does, Americans arent going to switch. There's also a minimum level of performance that Americans are willing to accept. The new Jaguar XJ diesel takes more than 8 seconds to get to 60mph. Nobody in this country will pay for a Jag that can be trounced by a Honda Accord at the stoplight.
Merc1 thanks for the photos. I, like others here, would buy the older one before the newer one. But, before I wrote a check for an out-of-warranty S Class, I'd have to think long and hard. The phrase "you don't want to own one out of warranty" wasn't first uttered in reference to a Toyota.
I don't mean to rain on the new S' parade, but this past July 4th weekend reminded me of why MBs issues continue to dominate the minds and hearts of lux car owners and wannabe owners.
I could not have imagined the depth of how the problems of MB have permeated the public domain, even among many *non-car people*. Sorry to bring up a belated point, but I meet people of all walks and as talk devolve to cars, especially luxury cars, the first few words are uttered about MB quality issues. And before I can even put in a word, the next words are something about a friend, colleague, or family member with horror stories about their new MB. Is it that bad ? I mean, really... or is it mostly perception ? Sure all car companies have issues to resolve, but MBs brand is HUGE built over a hundred years of solid reputation, and it is really serious the way many ordinary citizens are bad mouthing MBs based on stories told them by other owners. This *problem* real or perceived will take years to fix and lots of $$$/Euros. One can only hope that Cordes and Schrempf are up to the task.
I think M-B will be fine. I mean, look at Land Rover. Even when M-B was at its lowest point, Land Rover was and continues to be the worst of the worst, and yet people are still buying them for some reason.
You’d never know of MBs problems by the presence of The Banana in my part of the world. I have never seen so many of one high-end car so close to its launch. When the S comes around I expect to see them invade like ants.
When the 5-series came out it took forever to see them on the road yet they said there were tons of them on the left coast. Would be interesting to see regional sales figures for all of these cars.
MB branding will save MB. There are too many people attached to it. It’s almost like Corvette which has horrible reliability yet it has the highest customer satisfaction.
"Daniel Gorrell, vice president of Strategic Vision, a San Diego research firm, said "long-term durability issues" had hurt Mercedes. "They tend to become more bothersome after three months, particularly with electronic failures, because they are so electronically oriented," he said.
As part of a global initiative, Mercedes spent $645 million in the first quarter to fix quality issues. It also invested $600 million to expand the Alabama plant, where the new R-Class will also be built.
Still, Mercedes has already recalled 7,200 M-Class utilities, on sale since March, for problems with a power steering hose clamp.
Whatever improvements Mercedes is making, they may not be enough to keep up. Although the brand's score jumped 26 points in the J. D. Power initial quality study in 2004, it gained only 2 points this year while Lexus improved by 6, said Art Spinella, president of CNW Marketing Research in Bandon, Ore. "So even though Mercedes has gotten better, the gap keeps widening," Mr. Spinella said. "Now they are as good as Cadillac. Buick is better. Other people are getting better faster.""
"Daniel Gorrell...said... " particularly with electronic failures, because they are so electronically oriented"
This has got to be one of the more ponderous, pretentious things I've read today, worse even than anything in today's Sunday New York Times. Yes, forum readers, Mr. Gorrell is apparently a consultant.
And Land Rover Range Rover continues to rank at the bottom in sales and for the unlucky few who buy these trucks, re-sale values are even worse.... Not a particularly good example to use, LG...
I suppose you are right.... 118+ years of market presence is tough to undo. MB is resilient and will survive and prosper. BTW, the market valuation of DCX has fallen 50% since the 1998 merger/purchase of Chrysler. Much of that decline due to the hurt on the brand's image. So yes, the problems have really hurt where it matters most... The new releases and updates to styling are in the right direction (mostly), but perception takes awhile to correct, and MB needs to spend lots and lots of money, and years of marked improvements to turn these perception around for the better. OTOH, Lexus continues to just roll on and its brand recognition will only increase at the expense of MB, especially. If the news of the LS600H coming out is anything to go by, MB has its work cut out for the next 5 years to slow the Lexus onslaught. It may not be pretty....
"Of the cars we have sold since 1955, 72 percent are still on the road," said Rob Moran, a Mercedes spokesman. "So that's a pretty good measure in terms of reliability and speaks to the longevity of the models."
Thats a rather odd statement, considering nobody was asking how many 1956 Benzes are still running. A better question would be, "hey, when is that free service program coming back? BMW and Audi still have theirs".
"Of the cars we have sold since 1955, 72 percent are still on the road," said Rob Moran, a Mercedes spokesman.
Does anyone in their right mind believe that statement?? He's measuring cars they know were scrapped and assuming everything else is still operating. Anyone who wants to prop up a number counts that way. Reminds me of Abbott and Costellos famous 7X13=28 - and they proved it three different ways!
You know, if I were MB or even BMW, I'd constitute a "Lexus Strategy Team" to combat what may be a tough battle ahead against Toyota and its horde of cash, ingenuity, persevearance, will to win, and aggressive determination to simply take over the auto world and become numero uno by 2010. Its only 5 years away and all signs point to it happening, maybe even earlier than planned. I am dead serious here. MB is not helping itself much with the new S-style which is regressive to the current style. I hope that there is such a thing as a tactical SWAT team in the wings calculating every Lexus move and planning on counter attacks otherwise......
According to today’s Wall Street Journal, Mercedes-Benz is counting on a new version of its high-end S-Class sedan to help put the shine back on its three-pointed star after a spate of quality problems.
"The revamped S-Class (with exterior styling borrowed from the ultraluxury Maybach sedan) will make its U.S. debut in six months but the car will be unveiled at the Frankfurt Auto Show in September, and MB has begun to whet American interest by posting photos of the sedan on its U.S. Web site.
The S-Class comes with a seven-speed automatic transmission -- most competing cars have only five or six forward gears -- and seats that provide four levels of pulsating massage.
But other slick features are being cut back. Gone are the electronic key fobs and sophisticated type of braking. Instead, Mercedes is playing up high-tech accident-avoidance and an infrared camera that can extend the driver's visibility to nearly 500 feet.
Despite its position as the world's best-selling premium brand, Mercedes sales in the United States, the world's biggest auto market, trail those of BMW, Lexus and Cadillac. Worse, Mercedes, once DaimlerChrysler's cash cow, has become a money loser. In April, Mercedes reported its first quarterly loss in more than a decade, caused partly by quality problems that led to the biggest recall in Mercedes history, covering 1.3 million cars, or a year's worth of sales.
One sign of Mercedes officials' confidence in the new S-Class: Its starting price in Germany, about €70,760 ($84,523), is a couple of thousand euros more than that of a comparably equipped BMW 7-Series."
I can't say I really like the styling direction of MB with the new S class. Kind of reminds me of what Cadillac is doing with those swoopy hard lines going down the side of the car. Not very German like.
Wanted to return to a different type of conversation, but nope, same old tired dump on Mercedes crapola.
Mercedes gives a percentage of their cars that are still on the road, yet it is seen as untrue or silly. Yet if Lexus said the same thing from 1990 onward it would be seen as a true testament as to how good Lexuses are. Like MB would really make such a statement without some research.
Is life in Lexiland really that boring that Mercedes has to be discussed each and every day? Is Lexilot envy of Mercedes really that bad to the point of having a buzzards circling type conversation every week? Its beyond tired at this point.
I guess I am one of the rare ones that love BOTH Mercedes and Lexus. It just depends on which particular new model is available when I'm ready to buy. My wife wanted a convertible and chose the SC430, even though I tried to get her into an SL500. Guess the blame goes to the salesman who didn't want to let me take an SL for a test drive.
I got to choose the "practical" car and ended up with an LS430, even though my wife favored the S500.
When it's time to replace these cars, I will give equal consideration to both Lexus and Mercedes. I believe the quality/reliability issues with MB are overblown, as is the "bland and boring" tag attached to Lexus.
Both make great cars, and we as consumers can only benefit from the competition.
Sometimes we take our cars a little too seriously, maybe?
When you get past all the bs and hype, Lexus will be hot just like Mercedes, and BMW and Infiniti and even Cadillac if they all continue to come to market with new and exciting products. None of these brands are going to go away because of Lexus and the Europeans until knocked off their perch in every segment worldwide, not just a class or two in the U.S. will remain at the top of the heap.
Lexus couldn't begin to erase what MB and BMW have at their cores with their lame designs and pull-car dynamics, lack of models, and wannabe image. If such a thing does happen it wont be while any of us are posting here.
"Mercedes gives a percentage of their cars that are still on the road, yet it is seen as untrue or silly. Yet if Lexus said the same thing from 1990 onward it would be seen as a true testament as to how good Lexuses are. Like MB would really make such a statement without some research."
Well, the point I was trying to make is that a sweeping statement like that covering 50 years of Mercedes history doesnt mean a whole lot when we're talking about problems that have really only been serious since maybe 1998 at the earliest. To me, the fact that Mercedes had to cancel their free scheduled service because it was costing them too much money is a lot more telling about what Mercedes quality is like now not in 1960, 1970, or 1980. It puts them at a definite competitive disadvantage vs. BMW and Audi that have not cancelled their programs. I have to assume that Mercedes will want to bring the program back...but that would require full confidence that the quality problems have been fixed. I'm waiting...
"Go to the 2007 LS board, talk about delirium. The Germancarfans are now "fools" and Lexus has taken over the world, that and the usual stuff "
For the record, we arent all like that and also for the record, I'd say there are just as many fanatical German car fans that would spit at even the thought of trying a Lexus or Infiniti because they could never equal untouchable Germany.
Well I really wasn't taking issue with your post. You make a valid claim and didn't slam MB's claim as being untrue or some great assumption.
For the record, we arent all like that and also for the record, I'd say there are just as many fanatical German car fans that would spit at even the thought of trying a Lexus or Infiniti because they could never equal untouchable Germany.
Thats true, but still I've never seen such frothing and rampant speculation and general daydreaming about any other brand. Though with me you'd have to scratch Infiniti from that post, I'd drive one of those for sure.
I understand what you're saying. To be honest, I dont really understand some of the enthusiasm for Lexus myself. They have hits and misses, just like any other car company. The LS is a great car, and I have no doubt that it will continue to be a great car. Its the right car for me, but its certainly not for everyone. The 2007 LS460 is not going to be some sort of magic world crushing car that when Mercedes, BMW, and Audi see it, they will say "thats it, I guess we give up." The car business is war, nobody is giving up and going home.
Mercedes gives a percentage of their cars that are still on the road, yet it is seen as untrue or silly. Yet if Lexus said the same thing from 1990 onward it would be seen as a true testament as to how good Lexuses are. Like MB would really make such a statement without some research.
I'd be inclined to give it the benefit of doubt if MB claimed in 1995 that 72% of all MB's sold since 1980 were still on the road, but 72% of all cars sold since 1955?? come on! Unless of course, MB sales has undergone so much growth in recent years that 72% of all cars sold in the last 50 years were actually made in the last 10 years. In that case, it would be a highly misleading marketing speak.
The WSJ tested 6 vehicles and said about the 400h:
The Lexus 400h was the most expensive vehicle we tested, but also the quietest. We drove it from Detroit to the tip of Michigan's thumb, mostly on state highways, clocking just over its EPA highway estimate of 27 mpg. To give it a little stop-and-go traffic, which is where the Toyota hybrid systems excel, we also endured downtown Detroit rush-hour traffic. In those six miles, the Lexus averaged 34.9 mpg, well above its 31 mpg city figure from the EPA
Not too shabby compared to the 19mpg I get on my rx300 in mixed driving.
What I'd like to see is for a car rag to do a "nose-to-tail" test with a rx330 and rx400h, over many miles and controlling for the amount of charge in the battery at beginning and end.
"What I'd like to see is for a car rag to do a "nose-to-tail" test with a rx330 and rx400h"
Not gonna happen. It might rule the segment in sales, but none of the major mags care about either version. (And dont flame, German guys, I know why they dont care.) Expect to see plenty of coverage when the next X5 hits next year though. I'm sure there will be at least two X5 V8 vs. ML500 comparos, with the RX not invited.
Unless of course, MB sales has undergone so much growth in recent years that 72% of all cars sold in the last 50 years were actually made in the last 10 years. In that case, it would be a highly misleading marketing speak.
Of course, that's exactly what it is: "marketing speak" to use your term. Mercedes' overall car production in recent years is many many multiples of what it was in 1955-80. It's just a clever manipulation of statistics. But it sounds good, doesn't it?
I'm sure Merc1 can give us the total production figures for say 1956 and 2004 and you'll see the point.
I couldn't agree more with your comments re: the MB brand. In this market, which has a glut of good luxury brands, it is a very bad time to try to build a brand essentially from ground zero. When most people think of the benchmark premium automotive luxury brand they think MB. When they think of the benchmark premium watch brand, for example, they think Rolex. The fact is that both assumptions are wrong. However, both have excellent brands that they have built over years and years.
"The [2006] LS 430 comes with a 278-horsepower 4.3-liter aluminum V8 and a six-speed automatic transmission. (The same engine was rated 290 horsepower last year, which might lead some consumers to wonder how Lexus let those 12 horses get away. What has in fact happened is that the Society of Automotive Engineers, or SAE, has revised its test procedures for horsepower and torque, and as a result some of the numbers are coming out lower this year. So in fact all the ponies are still in the stable; but the racing commission is counting them differently. There is no change in performance over last year's model as it's the same.)" http://www.newcartestdrive.com/review-intro.cfm?Vehicle=2006_Lexus_LS%20430&ReviewID=1750
Hi all, I see the same comments about MB being made once again. MB is here to stay pure and simple on the grounds of brand strength alone. They could rebadge Yugos as MB's and people will still buy them. Here's an example: Under the ownership of British Leyland, Jaguar's quality control was horrendous..But people still bought them. Jaguar owners were quite loyal for many of the same reasons most Euro owners are.
I was somewhat disappointed by the new S-Class. I didn't think MB needed to copy the 7 Series. They already had a great interior design. The outside isn't as exciting as the current car, but it does look nice in that Dark Maroon picture Merc posted aways back. If their quality is up to par I'll definitely have a look. The CLS is an interesting looking car, but the headlight treatment could have been better.
The LS sketches look okay. I certainly won't be rushing to trade in my LS430 for that. Come to think of it, I'm not really impressed by anything that is in the pipeline. The sole interesting looking car is the Audi A8.
I actually did see a Maybach in Boston the other day. I wasn't terribly impressed. I'd much rather have a MB S600. The S has a cleaner classier look to it. Makes me sort of regret passing on the S430. The current S is a handsome car. Anyone know how the S Class is faring in reliability these days?
I agree with you that brand strength will carry MB. But that doesn't mean that MB can't continue to lose market share within the luxury space if it continues to execute poorly.
MB has been doing better on initial quality (90 days I think) but still looks not so great on long-term reliability (3 year). You can always punch up specific vehicles here:
If MB doesn't improve its reliability, it may really become rebadge Yugo. Sure some people may still buy it, just like some people who bought real Yugos too. The question is: will you buy it?
Hello all, I have been a reader of the boards for many years now, and I have a question for the clearly knowlegable members of the board. And while this is partly off scope of many of the messages, I hope that someone will be of great assistance. I am in the market for a car, one that hopefully wont require too much extra up keep and offers the luxury that I enjoy. I want to purchase a car between $30k and $40k. I will probably go for a used car because I dont want to put alot of extra money in a car that I dont plan on keeping very long. I have been looking at a used S-Class and a used LS430 both from 2002. I would like to hear some opinions on which car I should pick or :confuse: if I should pick a different car all together.
Do 2002 LS430s and S Classes really go between $30-$40K? I would think something more in the $40K-$50K range. I'm no expert on car prices, however $30K-$40K seems like a lot of depreciation in only 3 years.
If you're looking a vehicle without much upkeep, may I suggest Lexus. They have topped the JD Power quality surveys for a long time now. Their very reputation is built on quality materials, solid build quality and advanced technology. Something between $30-$40K could be a loaded IS350 or ES330, depending on whether you want sport or quiet luxury. You can probably keep the Lexus for a long time with minimal maintenance.
Are you looking for more sport or luxury in your car?
I need a lil' bit of both. I am a true driver and if I were able to spend a good $70k+ I know I would be ordering a 750i. Price wise I have found both the S430 and LS430 in that price range, my main reason for looking at them. I do need more space and luxury than an IS can offer. I have considered a loaded ES but I wonder would a loaded new ES really be better than a loaded used LS...or at that a S-Class. Ultimately, the one car I would blow $70k+ on with out a second thought would be a BMW 7. But for my current price range I havent been able to find a 2002-present 7 for less than $45k.
Comments
Best I could do on the fly for the SC:
“I really like the "almost good looking" comment. You could also say, almost not ugly.”
Not quite. “almost good looking” is a compliment coming from me. I actually think the SC430 is a decent piece of work. It has a Great Gatsby flair. Throw on your cream linen suit, fedora and two-tone brown and white wingtip shoes. The only things that ruin it are those tulip-shaped tail lights. Finesse them and the spoiler. Better yet, lose the spoiler and tweak the trunk lid. The earlier lid on the white car looks better. Yeah, a little work on the butt and it’s home. That’s if you’d rather spend $63k on luxury as opposed to a real sports car like the Boxster S. But hey, you’ve heard it before different strokes. BTW those shots in stark flat light don’t do it justice.
The Solara has too many strange, dissonant, bug-like shapes. Reminds me more of the ES with that catwalk beltline.
Well take care all.....see you back in this space in a week. To all a happy, motoring 4th.
M
A Foggy Future: Where Can Lexus Go From Here?
It was posted last month, but I missed it - here it is in case any of you missed it as well.
Diesel, Gas or Hybrid? The Auto Industry Is Pushing All Three, but Americans Aren't Sure
I could not have imagined the depth of how the problems of MB have permeated the public domain, even among many *non-car people*. Sorry to bring up a belated point, but I meet people of all walks and as talk devolve to cars, especially luxury cars, the first few words are uttered about MB quality issues. And before I can even put in a word, the next words are something about a friend, colleague, or family member with horror stories about their new MB. Is it that bad ? I mean, really... or is it mostly perception ? Sure all car companies have issues to resolve, but MBs brand is HUGE built over a hundred years of solid reputation, and it is really serious the way many ordinary citizens are bad mouthing MBs based on stories told them by other owners. This *problem* real or perceived will take years to fix and lots of $$$/Euros. One can only hope that Cordes and Schrempf are up to the task.
When the 5-series came out it took forever to see them on the road yet they said there were tons of them on the left coast. Would be interesting to see regional sales figures for all of these cars.
MB branding will save MB. There are too many people attached to it. It’s almost like Corvette which has horrible reliability yet it has the highest customer satisfaction.
"Daniel Gorrell, vice president of Strategic Vision, a San Diego research firm, said "long-term durability issues" had hurt Mercedes. "They tend to become more bothersome after three months, particularly with electronic failures, because they are so electronically oriented," he said.
As part of a global initiative, Mercedes spent $645 million in the first quarter to fix quality issues. It also invested $600 million to expand the Alabama plant, where the new R-Class will also be built.
Still, Mercedes has already recalled 7,200 M-Class utilities, on sale since March, for problems with a power steering hose clamp.
Whatever improvements Mercedes is making, they may not be enough to keep up. Although the brand's score jumped 26 points in the J. D. Power initial quality study in 2004, it gained only 2 points this year while Lexus improved by 6, said Art Spinella, president of CNW Marketing Research in Bandon, Ore. "So even though Mercedes has gotten better, the gap keeps widening," Mr. Spinella said. "Now they are as good as Cadillac. Buick is better. Other people are getting better faster.""
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/10/automobiles/10QUALITY.html?
Plus the main story it bridged from on the ML;
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/10/automobiles/10AUTO.html
"Daniel Gorrell...said... " particularly with electronic failures, because they are so electronically oriented"
This has got to be one of the more ponderous, pretentious things I've read today, worse even than anything in today's Sunday New York Times. Yes, forum readers, Mr. Gorrell is apparently a consultant.
Thats a rather odd statement, considering nobody was asking how many 1956 Benzes are still running. A better question would be, "hey, when is that free service program coming back? BMW and Audi still have theirs".
Does anyone in their right mind believe that statement?? He's measuring cars they know were scrapped and assuming everything else is still operating. Anyone who wants to prop up a number counts that way. Reminds me of Abbott and Costellos famous 7X13=28 - and they proved it three different ways!
http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB112104679370281855,00.html?mod=todays_us_marketplace
"The revamped S-Class (with exterior styling borrowed from the ultraluxury Maybach sedan) will make its U.S. debut in six months but the car will be unveiled at the Frankfurt Auto Show in September, and MB has begun to whet American interest by posting photos of the sedan on its U.S. Web site.
The S-Class comes with a seven-speed automatic transmission -- most competing cars have only five or six forward gears -- and seats that provide four levels of pulsating massage.
But other slick features are being cut back. Gone are the electronic key fobs and sophisticated type of braking. Instead, Mercedes is playing up high-tech accident-avoidance and an infrared camera that can extend the driver's visibility to nearly 500 feet.
Despite its position as the world's best-selling premium brand, Mercedes sales in the United States, the world's biggest auto market, trail those of BMW, Lexus and Cadillac.
Worse, Mercedes, once DaimlerChrysler's cash cow, has become a money loser. In April, Mercedes reported its first quarterly loss in more than a decade, caused partly by quality problems that led to the biggest recall in Mercedes history, covering 1.3 million cars, or a year's worth of sales.
One sign of Mercedes officials' confidence in the new S-Class: Its starting price in Germany, about €70,760 ($84,523), is a couple of thousand euros more than that of a comparably equipped BMW 7-Series."
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/local/12087202.htm
This has to be the most extreme rebate program ever!
IMO the Mercedes name is more prestigious than Maybach. End the Maybach experiment and let Mercedes move upscale if DC wants a Rolls/Bentley fighter.
Mercedes gives a percentage of their cars that are still on the road, yet it is seen as untrue or silly. Yet if Lexus said the same thing from 1990 onward it would be seen as a true testament as to how good Lexuses are. Like MB would really make such a statement without some research.
Is life in Lexiland really that boring that Mercedes has to be discussed each and every day? Is Lexilot envy of Mercedes really that bad to the point of having a buzzards circling type conversation every week? Its beyond tired at this point.
M
I got to choose the "practical" car and ended up with an LS430, even though my wife favored the S500.
When it's time to replace these cars, I will give equal consideration to both Lexus and Mercedes. I believe the quality/reliability issues with MB are overblown, as is the "bland and boring" tag attached to Lexus.
Both make great cars, and we as consumers can only benefit from the competition.
Sometimes we take our cars a little too seriously, maybe?
When you get past all the bs and hype, Lexus will be hot just like Mercedes, and BMW and Infiniti and even Cadillac if they all continue to come to market with new and exciting products. None of these brands are going to go away because of Lexus and the Europeans until knocked off their perch in every segment worldwide, not just a class or two in the U.S. will remain at the top of the heap.
Lexus couldn't begin to erase what MB and BMW have at their cores with their lame designs and pull-car dynamics, lack of models, and wannabe image. If such a thing does happen it wont be while any of us are posting here.
M
Well, the point I was trying to make is that a sweeping statement like that covering 50 years of Mercedes history doesnt mean a whole lot when we're talking about problems that have really only been serious since maybe 1998 at the earliest. To me, the fact that Mercedes had to cancel their free scheduled service because it was costing them too much money is a lot more telling about what Mercedes quality is like now not in 1960, 1970, or 1980. It puts them at a definite competitive disadvantage vs. BMW and Audi that have not cancelled their programs. I have to assume that Mercedes will want to bring the program back...but that would require full confidence that the quality problems have been fixed. I'm waiting...
"Go to the 2007 LS board, talk about delirium. The Germancarfans are now "fools" and Lexus has taken over the world, that and the usual stuff "
For the record, we arent all like that
For the record, we arent all like that and also for the record, I'd say there are just as many fanatical German car fans that would spit at even the thought of trying a Lexus or Infiniti because they could never equal untouchable Germany.
Thats true, but still I've never seen such frothing and rampant speculation and general daydreaming about any other brand. Though with me you'd have to scratch Infiniti from that post, I'd drive one of those for sure.
M
I'd be inclined to give it the benefit of doubt if MB claimed in 1995 that 72% of all MB's sold since 1980 were still on the road, but 72% of all cars sold since 1955?? come on! Unless of course, MB sales has undergone so much growth in recent years that 72% of all cars sold in the last 50 years were actually made in the last 10 years. In that case, it would be a highly misleading marketing speak.
Their great assembly quality and sales success keeps the other luxury brands from getting complacent.
Lexus appeals to people who see cars more as transportation devices than objects of desire.
The Lexus 400h was the most expensive vehicle we tested, but also the quietest. We drove it from Detroit to the tip of Michigan's thumb, mostly on state highways, clocking just over its EPA highway estimate of 27 mpg. To give it a little stop-and-go traffic, which is where the Toyota hybrid systems excel, we also endured downtown Detroit rush-hour traffic. In those six miles, the Lexus averaged 34.9 mpg, well above its 31 mpg city figure from the EPA
Not too shabby compared to the 19mpg I get on my rx300 in mixed driving.
What I'd like to see is for a car rag to do a "nose-to-tail" test with a rx330 and rx400h, over many miles and controlling for the amount of charge in the battery at beginning and end.
Not gonna happen. It might rule the segment in sales, but none of the major mags care about either version. (And dont flame, German guys, I know why they dont care.) Expect to see plenty of coverage when the next X5 hits next year though. I'm sure there will be at least two X5 V8 vs. ML500 comparos, with the RX not invited.
Of course, that's exactly what it is: "marketing speak" to use your term. Mercedes' overall car production in recent years is many many multiples of what it was in 1955-80. It's just a clever manipulation of statistics. But it sounds good, doesn't it?
I'm sure Merc1 can give us the total production figures for say 1956 and 2004 and you'll see the point.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId=106455#25
Seems to be in the same mold as the GS, needs a VDIM off switch to make it more sporty.
I see the same comments about MB being made once again. MB is here to stay pure and simple on the grounds of brand strength alone. They could rebadge Yugos as MB's and people will still buy them. Here's an example: Under the ownership of British Leyland, Jaguar's quality control was horrendous..But people still bought them. Jaguar owners were quite loyal for many of the same reasons most Euro owners are.
I was somewhat disappointed by the new S-Class. I didn't think MB needed to copy the 7 Series. They already had a great interior design. The outside isn't as exciting as the current car, but it does look nice in that Dark Maroon picture Merc posted aways back. If their quality is up to par I'll definitely have a look. The CLS is an interesting looking car, but the headlight treatment could have been better.
The LS sketches look okay. I certainly won't be rushing to trade in my LS430 for that. Come to think of it, I'm not really impressed by anything that is in the pipeline. The sole interesting looking car is the Audi A8.
I actually did see a Maybach in Boston the other day. I wasn't terribly impressed. I'd much rather have a MB S600. The S has a cleaner classier look to it. Makes me sort of regret passing on the S430. The current S is a handsome car. Anyone know how the S Class is faring in reliability these days?
SV
MB has been doing better on initial quality (90 days I think) but still looks not so great on long-term reliability (3 year). You can always punch up specific vehicles here:
http://www.jdpower.com/cc/auto/ratings/vehicles/FindJdAwards.jsp
...A very useful service.
If you're looking a vehicle without much upkeep, may I suggest Lexus. They have topped the JD Power quality surveys for a long time now. Their very reputation is built on quality materials, solid build quality and advanced technology. Something between $30-$40K could be a loaded IS350 or ES330, depending on whether you want sport or quiet luxury. You can probably keep the Lexus for a long time with minimal maintenance.
Are you looking for more sport or luxury in your car?