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Audi A4 2004 and earlier



  • The following, while a quote from Audi literature, is for the vast majority of us on the Audi boards (and most of us being Audi owners), probably an accurate reflection of Audi+quattro -- not Audi alone mind you, Audi+quattro.

    "quattro: Around the world, a synonym for confidence." Although some folks opinions written on this board about all wheel drive claims that AWD has more to do with winter traction than other attributes, I would disagree. Yes, it is true that AWD is great when there is any condition that is not "dry pavement." But quattro (and to be fair, SOME other AWD interpretations) is a performance and safety enhancer under all conditions.

    The "friendly" argument I often find myself in is saying that a BMW 330 cannot be compared to an Audi A4 3.0 quattro. Of course they are often compared because there are marketing similarities between the two, e.g., price (although the Audi gives higher "content" for the money), engine displacement, approximate size of the vehicle, etc. But, a quattro equipped Audi is a chassis, engine, transmission "system." The sum of the parts is greater than the whole.

    The BMW 330 will out accelerate an A4 3.0, on dry pavement the Bimmer will have "higher" g numbers than the Audi -- yet, in the real world where most of us drive, the Audi offers "more" -- more capability, more performance and more safetey ("confidence"). The BMW is a great car, and in face offs one year the BMW will "win" and then next time the Audi "wins." The power of the BMW is addictive, to be sure. But test drive them both on anything less than a perfect day and the Audi "advantage" becomes apparent.

    And, please test drive cars that are apples and apples price wise not just competitors by virtue of some specification. For example, the BMW 5 series is price compeitive with the A6 2.7T with sport package -- yet a 530 would seem to be a car that should be compared to an A6 3.0. The price point and content of a 530 on most BMW dealer's lots makes them, however, more accurately comparable to the 2.7T -- which outperforms the 530.

    Finally, although I am unashamed to be Audi biased, you will not go wrong with any of the Bimmers you noted. Audis have sporty flair and luxury and they offer across the line -- quattro.

    "Nothing even comes close. . ." (yea I know it was ripped off).
  • Thanks for the info above! Can you quote the differences between the two models? I like the appearance/sportiness of the A4 while the A6 offered a more luxury type ride. I would like to stay below 40K too. The spec sheet states A4 has more interior volume? Scott
  • the A6 2.7t is the fastest?
    i assume you are leaving out the s4 because it is not in production right now?
    that's from 0-60? what about from 50-70?
    or 40-100? or whatever.
    just curious. i haven't seen any numbers other than 0-60 and 1/4 miles.
  • lauk0dglauk0dg Posts: 563
    You asked about CVT and Quattro.

    CVT: It stands for Continuously Variable TRANSMISSION. It's a new vocabulary in addition to manual and automatic. In a manual equipped vehicle, there are 5 or 6 preset gear sizes. In a CVT vehicle, there are no gears. Instead, there's a chain and pulley system that continuously changes the "gear ratio". The engine spins at an efficient speed and the CVT will change the size of the chain and pulley to give you optimal pull at different speeds. For the Audi system you can also use the preset CVT ratios in case you still want the 1st-2nd-3rd gear shifts. The advantage of this is the car is as fast as a manual, yet having the kind of fuel mpg figure a manual will get because there is no torque converter like an automatic does.

    Quattro: It's the name for the AWD system on Audi. Unlike other systems, each of the 4 wheels got 25% of the engine power under normal driving situations. Most 4WD vehicles drive their front wheels and only split power to the back wheels under slipping conditions, which maybe too late already. Plus most of these 4WD vehicles don't recommend driving with all 4 wheels all the time. Not the case in Audi's. And if I remember correctly the Quattro system can send 66% of the engine power to the only wheel that doesn't spin if it needs to.

    So it's transmission vs drive train.

  • Let's see if I can give short answers (fat chance):

    The 2.7T Audi A6 is not the fastest, and my post did not say "fastest." It (the 2.7T 6spd manual A6 for 2002) is the quickest (ONLY in 6spd manual configuration). The S6 and S8 (according to the literature) are faster. Practically speaking, the A6 4.2 would be faster than the 2.7T also -- but these two have a computer limiter set at 130mph (which IS defeatable if anyone really is nuts!). The S versions are computer limited to 155mph. Of course even here in bucolic Cincinnati, we rarely can go much over 100mph -- I can remember 80 and 85+ when the interstates are not crowded -- but this just doesn't happen that much anymore. Damn orange barrels everywhere.

    With respect to the S4 -- currently according to the latest and greatest Audi literature, there is no S4 available -- although there are some S4 and S4 Avants "out there" on dealer's lots (there was one last week in Dallas so I'm told). So, I did not mention it as it was a carry over model and only temporarily available and then only in reduced inventory.

    I have the Audi book which lists EVERY NEW Audi (USA) model, performance claims and standard equipment. There are no options mentioned, no paint chips or interior swatches, etc. It is a "just the facts" book (a nice book, but more a thumbnail overview of the various models).

    ========== Comparisons

    A6 quattro 3.0 from "da book":

    0-60mph (Tiptronic) 7.9 seconds

    A4 quattro 3.0 from "da book":

    0-60 (6spd manual) 6.9 seconds (Tiptronic) 7.7 seconds

    There are no Audi of America published figures for the other quickness ?'s you had -- they are sometimes available on the Car & Driver website (and other auto magazine web sites, too).

    Finally, although possible, it would be fairly difficult to find or configure an A6 3.0 quattro for under $40K -- a maxed out A6 3.0 quattro sport with Pearl White Paint is "just barely" north of $40K and would, of course be discounted from that number and if you didn't get the Pearl White color would be south of $40K. The A6 could be ordered "skinny" and it too would be discounted, so it is technically a contender too. The A6 will be bigger in the back seat of course, the A4 will be IMO more sporty and less sedan like. The opposite is true with the A6 3.0 which does not offer a factory sport package, for example.

    CVT is TODAY only on FWD A4's and A6's -- so it is on both A4's and only the A6 3.0 -- coming soon, so they say to quattros and bigger (more powerful, i.e.) engines.

    It is a nit, admittedly, but it is probably worth noting that "fast" relates to the top speed of the car (any car) and quick relates to acceleration numbers. 0-60 times are, broadly speaking, considered measures of quickness.

    The 2.7T is quicker @ 250HP than a 4.2 @ 300HP even though the torque of the 2.7T is "only" 258 lb/ft and the 4.2 is 295 lb ft. The quickness of the 2.7T comes from the fact that its torque peak starts at 1850 RPM while the 4.2 peak starts at 3000 RPM. It is not just the size of the torque it is when it is usable. Audi turbo engines generally "come on steam" so to speak earlier than the normally aspirated engines -- even tho the bigger V8 has both more HP and torque, it is available a split second later than the torque of the V6 bi-turbo.
  • i meant quickest not fastest, as you said. sorry.
    i have an s4, never even been in an a6. have you driven a 2.7t and a 4.2? if so, any comments on the differences in feel? and how this compares to the new a4?
    thank you for your "short" reply above. :)
  • I have had two A6 4.2's one of them I have now, a 2001 A6 4.2 sport. I have test driven several A6 2.7T's -- one of them extensively and it had the 6spd manual. The 4.2 feels more solid and even though I know the 2.7T is quicker, the differences are not that great.

    Based on what I think I know now, I will probably end up with an '03 middle model A6 with a manual transmission -- rumors are wild, but include a 295HP 2.9T engine, a 3.7 V8, the new W8 from the soon to be here Passat -- but this model will probably soldier on at least another year or two with a stick shift unless or until the CVT has been proven in quattro and with the kind of torque the new audi engines will offer -- frankly a 2.9T would be quite satisfactory I'll wager (with the 6spd manual).

    The 4.2 feels better -- in every way -- to me than my 1997 A8 (which I kept for 47,000 miles and had special ordered the S8 factory suspension and plus sized tires). I previously (before the A8) had a 1995 S6 which, until my current A6 4.2, was the best Audi I ever owned -- it had the power and the fun transmission -- but I got rid of it, too, right before 50,000 miles.

    My wife and I have had two dozen Audi cars (almost all models they have ever offered in the US) since 1978 (my first was a 1978 Audi 5000 followed by a 1979 Audi Fox GTI). We have had a (healthy) love affair with Audi (plus we also had a VW Jetta and a VW quantum and a BMW 325ix [1988] and an American Eagle). As you can tell, we love the VW/Audi brand and all-wheel-drive since virtually all of our cars, except the VW's have been AWD).

    We have been to the Audi factory in Ingolstadt 6 times, once as Audi's guest. From time to time we correspond with Audi of America folks about the product and have been to the Audi driving school in Seefeld Austria 4 times 1997 - 1998, 2000 - 2001. Audi test marketed the A8 to 25 customers, in 1996, and we were one of the "lucky" families who got to have not one but two A8's "loaned to us" (a 4.2 quattro and a 3.7 FWD version) as part of the roll out of the Audi A8 in the US.

    Audi has rewarded our outspoken loyalty time and again, most recently with a trip to St. Moritz to watchs the women's super G down hill skiing. We are members of the quattro club of America and my wife's photographs of driving schools have graced the pages of the quattro quarterly. My wife is "on" her second TT and will be ordering a 2003 version as the lease on her 2001 225HP TT coupe is up later this year (30 month lease).

    We got to drive the A4 quattro sport 2.5TD on a private course in Austria in January 2001 (it still has not made it to the US). This version of the A4 is the best A4 I have ever driven (next to the S4 anyway -- and I suspect it is quicker than the 3.0 -- at least to 80 or 100 kph at least).

    So we have much experience, much passion and strong opinions on the Audi brand. And, we love to talk and write about it with our fellow Audi owners and possible future Audi owners.

    I like the new A4 a lot and am anxious to see/drive a new body style S4 (hurry hurry AoA).

    So much new Audi product is "in the pipeline" -- the next few years look VERY exciting indeed.

    Another short reply!?!
  • you are audi guy. haven't seen "markcincinnati" on audi world. name there?

    i am very curious about the upcoming audi cars and engines. from what i know they have a large variety of engines in europe. i'm hoping that the next s4 is the 2.9t, unless the 4.2 is actually lighter.
    it would be nice to keep the quattro and yet not let the weight get too out of control.
  • Nothing happens until it happens -- huh? Which is my way of saying that the Audi people give a nod and wink (in January 2002 while I was in Munich with the quattro Club of America) to the S4 coming out with a 340HP version of the 4.2 -- to battle the BMW M3. However, therefore, notwithstanding, there IS a Cosworth developed 2.9T (bi-turbo, like the 2.7T) engine that must ultimately go into something -- I had hoped for a mild and a wild S4 -- even the mild one would blow away the last gen S4, don't you think?

    The allroad gets the 4.2 soon, too -- this 4.2 may just be "the little engine that could" -- it too has been created and updated recently as a 4.2T (see AudiWorld, speaking of that web site) in an A6 body to boot (the RS6). W engines, too are coming -- W8 W12 even a possible W10 diesel version. More torque, horsepower, less pollution, greater economy, longer service intervals, etc.

    The best really is yet to come: allroad 2 or something like that, a nod and wink to the Steppenwolf, and more S-line cars (coming soon a limited edition S-line TT -- not hotter engine, in this version, just more sporty goodies and a notch or two more upscale.

    A 2.0T with 245HP when configured in the S3 or the new '03 TT -- and how about an S3 in this market? An S3 quattro only makes sense in a world where VW Audi (claiming they don't compete for customers -- and pigs fly right?) is bringing out a W8 Passat for $37,900 and a W12 Phaeton with active suspension for $71K -- an S3 will not compete with a GTI eh?

    Seriously, I think we may see all these cars, plus some other goodies with some great features and functions.

    Gotta go for now!
  • i'd be surprised to see so many varieties of similar cars in america, but it's possible.
    i'd be surprised to see two versions of an s car, like the s4. that would be like bmw having two m3's, with two different engines. and i'm not counting the v8 racing m3 they have.
    if they can mass produce the 4.2 to the extent that it looks like they will i would think that the costs would be fairly low.
    any idea what the hp/torque numbers of the 2.9t are?
    if they're gonna use the 4.2 so much, then what's the point of the 2.9t?
  • While I want an S4 with a 2.9T engine, I must say that all indications and rumors support the notion of a 4.2 non turbo S4. Audi wants a win -- the 2.9T with a reported (in a car magazine, and who knows its accuracy) 295HP (probably so that it doesn't equal the "base" 4.2) would be a great engine.

    You know, for the US market at least, an A4 with the 2.0T followed perhaps by a 2.9T and a 4.2 in the S4 may make some "marketing" sense. The whole A4 line, then, would be at least 200HP, as the 2.0T can be configured, like the 1.8T was (is) in so many ways.

    I have seen the European market accept what, to us in the US might seem to be incremental differences in engines, and engines in cars that we might find hard to conceive -- a 2.8 in an A8 for instance, and a 225HP 1.8T in an S3. And "full size" A6's with 1.8T engines when they were rated at 150HP. Perhaps if our gasoline prices climb above $4.00 a gallon, such differences will not seem minor.

    So, Audi will have in its lineup -- in a given body/chassis -- at least two engines and often 3 (based on history at least). Who's to say that the excellent and powerful Audi turbo diesels will not be sent here again.

    And, with VW coming out with the W8 Passat, the Phaeton and other more upscale offerings that to me seem competitive with Audi, I can only assume that we will have more and more choices in the near future.

    A Phaeton at $71,000 hmmm will that steal from the A8's or from Mercedes and BMW -- time will tell. A Passat with most Audi-like lux trimmings and a 275HP W8 for $10,000 less than an A6 2.7T -- with AWD, ESP, leather and and and. Maybe the idea is the VW corporation grows in total revenue, and "who cares" if the revenue is from Audi, Seat, VW or one of the really high buck car lines?

    There are VW golfs and Audi A3's on the other side of the ocean living in harmony. The arguments I have read for years stated that Audi did not compete with VW -- the Audi customer would not be a VW customer, a VW customer would graduate to Audi, etc. VW claims the new cars are aimed at Mercedes target market (with similar features for 20% less).

    I keep coming back to my friends who are interested in capability and content, not just image -- they WILL look at VW's and Audis and buy the car that offers the most capability and content for the money.

    Today, it is still reasonable and plausible to believe that the discerning buyer can distinguish between the VW and Audi brands -- how about when VW has cars that "list" in the high $30k range to $70K+? Perhaps Audi will just keep going up market in content, capability and (price) class.

    I do say, the more the merrier -- but I also wonder if there will be a blurring of the cars in the consumer's mind. Then I would have to say that Audi customers will find VW's of higher content for the money -- or of difficult to quantify differences for the money.
  • i just hope that the prices don't move up too far. of the audis.
    i would love to get another s4 in a few years when the new one comes out. but if passes over $50k, then the m3 starts looking REAL nice.
    i would definitely rather see the 2.9t in it. unless the 4.2 is actually lighter and cheaper (do to volume of production).

    i don't think our gas prices will be moving to european levels for quite awhile. which makes it more surprising that there aren't more "performance" sedans, and sports cars, here than in europe.
  • I agree completely.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 11,592
    My friend (I swear it isn't me) who has the A4 3.0 Quattro and the broken gas gauge has brought his car into get fixed again. Hopefully the new instrument cluster (2nd new one besides the one from the factory & new on that broke upon installation) will do the trick.

    His loaner is an A6 3.0 Quattro. He says the ride is much different (less sporty) than his A4. He says it is much roomier and smoother.

    He saw an A4 Cabriolet imported from A of A to do some prelimenary testing and focus groups I guess. He says the Cabroilet is gorgeous. It has a different interior than the A4 Sedans.

    I believe the largest Audi dealer on the East Coast (Maybe the largest in the country) is New Country Audi in Greenwich, CT.

    Hmmmmmm...An A4 2.0 T with at least 200hp. It is looking better and better than a 325Ci now for when car shopping time comes around in November/December for me.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2015 Infiniti Q40 AWD, 2017 Honda Pilot Touring AWD

  • No one, from Audi, who "knows" will actually tell what they know about future models -- unless the information and production are at the point of no return.

    Yes, there really are 2.0T and 2.9T engines -- but as far as I know, they have been only by rumor and spy photo and dealer inquiries (by Audi, as in ". . .hey dealer, would a 2.0T engine offered in an A4 be a "good thing" for sales?") in any way "announced." One web site I know (and this has been "confirmed" by an Audi salesperson -- who is not actually an AoA employee of course) is showcasing -- they even have a picture -- an Audi TT coupe 2003 model "mule" which has a 2.0T 245HP engine in it. The 2.0T has been written about as yet another can-do engine for the VW/Audi group (probably Audi first). The 2.0T engine will allow Audi to further up the hp and torque in the cars that currently have the 1.8T engine. Since this engine is now widely used in several VW's (Audi's parent company, BTW), it does probably have much more traction than most rumors and predictions from the automotive press.

    I am, because I am enthusiastic and optimistic, "suggesting" such future model/engine designations. I am 99% certain of the 4.2 allroad -- and several Audi people have "confirmed" such a car is coming "next." But, 99% certain is not 100% certain.

    My point is, if TODAY I was in the market for a new (Audi) car -- I would shop and configure the one that I wanted from the population of known -- for certain -- cars, engines and options. What if the '03 A4, in the US, comes with an uprated 1.8T (upped perhaps to match the TT and VW configuration -- 180HP or MAYBE even 225HP as in the "hot TT," up from the current rated 170HP) and you waited hoping for a 200HP 2.0T because you took comments, speculation and SOME facts from various and sundry web sites and Internet town halls? What if the 2.0T is only available in Europe for a year, etc etc etc?

    Please know that all of us ardent (rabid, perhaps) car fans -- especially Audi fans -- do not have a lock on what will happen at the 100% level of certainty.

    Now, me, I'm waiting for an S4 or an S6, 'cause I'm certain (99%) they're coming!


    Be guided accordingly.
  • i agree with you in thinking that the rs4(will there be one) and rs6 will not make it to the u.s. while the s4 and s6 certainly will.

    question for you. have you heard anything about power numbers available from the 2.9t?
    do you know anything about how the weight of the 2.9t, including the turbos, compares to the weight of the 4.2?
  • OK the poop from either Car and Driver or Road and Track or CAR magazine -- heck it may even have been in European Car recently -- on the 2.9T is this: It is very possible to produce a reliable, drivable 2.9T with a rating of over 300HP and of course the early-on high torque that all Audi's turbo engines are famous for (torque coming on south of 2,000 RPM). However, in non-turbo form, the base 4.2 is "only" 300HP and the S8 4.2 is "only" 360.

    Therefore, producing an agressive 350HP 2.9T powered model (A4 or A6) and marketing it would have to be problematic.

    Indeed, in some senses it is probably a bit of a "sticky wicket" that the 2002 A6 2.7T is quicker than the S6 and the S8 by .5 and .3 seconds (as reported in Audi brochures). The content of the S6 and S8 and even the A6 4.2 are therefore given more prominence -- which I find only a little odd, since both the S6 and the S8 are offered as THE AUDI PERFORMANCE cars (only to be bettered by a car that is perhaps some $30,000 less money).

    I am mostly convinced that you are getting a lot more than just a 0-60 time with these higher buck cars, but c'mon, let's have the S6 4.2 that comes to the US be the "king of the [6 series] hill" in ALL aspects (and that includes quickness). The 25mph top speed edge the S6 has over the 2.7T or even the 4.2 (which I own) does nothing for us here in River City (Cincinnati) -- I mean where can you ever go 130mph safely let alone 155mph. I'd forego that 25mph top speed improvement for a full second advantage on the 0-60 times.

    So, the article reads something like this -- the Cosworth developed 2.9T is rated at an easy 295HP and similar torque -- which is available from under 2000 RPM. All of us who have read these posts and those on AudiWorld, know that the 2.7T can be "stage one" chipped to 295HP +/- a few horses. A 295HP 2.9T would be, one can conclude, very mild indeed. And, also, most of us who have ever driven an S4 or A6 2.7T manual transmissions of course know that the stock 2.7T "ain't no slouch!" Even a mild 2.9T in an A6 or A4 (S4) would have to come equipped with speeding tickets in the glove box for the driver's convenience! Holy Cow Batman!

    Yet, due to what I believe is purely for positioning (perhaps aka Market Placement), the following makes sense. You can't have your 2.9T have specs "better" than your 4.2 (even if it can out accelerate the 4.2 in certain body and drivetrain applications) -- so you limit the 2.9T to a lazy (considering the potential) 295HP. And, you make absolutely certain that as you crank up the displacement of the engine, you crank up the [mostly] luxury and [somewhat] sporting content of the model that contains the most cubic inches. Got that?

    Last year, for example, if you test drove an A4 1.8T (@ a claimed 170HP) and then immediately drove a similar A4 2.8 (@ a claimed 190HP) and looked at the sticker price -- well you saw and felt the following: the A4 1.8T seemed quicker, it cost less, and it handled better if both A4's were quattro's with the sport option; the A4 2.8 had wood inlays, available leather, available power seats and sat nav (and you couldn't get these things on the 1.8T version). The "content" but not the performance was higher on the 2.8. Four of my friends who could have afforded either, chose "fully optioned" 1.8T's -- frankly they only missed the leather availability a little bit and the power seats a little more. Uh oh -- we must not let THAT happen again.

    So, we will offer three engine/chassis combinations that will -- hopefully -- not cause buyers to "buy down." Here is at least one possibility that might solve such a dilemma:

    In the A4 body:

    a 2.0T tuned to 195 or 200HP (the dealers will want 200HP for bragging rights, and I'll wager they'll get it -- and Audi dealers are NOT pleased that VW's 1.8T is rated at 180HP whereas in the A4 it still is marketed as 170HP) -- even if there is no 2.0T next year in the US, you can almost be certain that the 1.8T will put out NO LESS than 180HP in any Audi of America car.

    a 3.0 or possibly a 2.9T as the step up car -- but if there is a 200HP (minimum) 2.0T car, the current 3.0 will seem like too much money for too little performance, and even premium content will not woo an extra $4 - $8,000 from many buyers -- power seat or no; so my guess is the luxury sport A4 will have to crank up the power and torque somehow, no matter what engine displacement number graces the back end (therefore, my opinion: the logical choice, a 2.9T A4)

    then for "balls out" eat my rubber, burn my dust performance (and an M3 competitor at thousands less than the Bimmer) a 4.2 S4 with at least a published HP rating of 340 (just like in the current S6 -- and possibly 360HP if the long promised W12 shows up on this side of the Atlantic in any flavor Audi "8" A8, A8L or S8.)

    The dealers would like this, the aftermarket tuners would probably like this, Audi would like this because it would genuinely differentiate Audi from the constant move upmarket of VW. On that last point, remember that in April 2002 there will be a sub $38,000 8 cylinder leather-lined, AWD, bi-Xenon headlighted, Monsoon sound system equipped, 17 inch tired 275HP Passat for Pete's sake. It will be over $5 or $6,000 less than an A6 3.0 (and by comparison the Audi will look expensive and anemic).

    Audi needs to "up the performance ante" in a concomitant fashion (like VW, i.e.) to keep the marketplace of both new and current Audi owners firmly able to differentiate their image of Audi from VW. And, then, wham! a short 10 or so months later a 12 cylinder VW Phaeton that in test reports is "only" $5K north of an S6 and performs better -- both in straight line grunt and curvy road stickyness.

    I think all this stuff will be good for the marketplace, good for the dealers and good for those of us that lust after ever more higher performing Audi cars -- god, I hope we can still afford them.

    The most expensive Audi I have ever had was over $60K (a Pearl White 1997 A8 with the sport wheel option and all the power doo-dads). And my current all options except Pearl White paint A6 4.2 was "only" $54K. That is still a very far cry from $71K for a VW.

    Takes your breath away, doesn't it? How much will these new A4's rise in price? And, then what about the A6's and of course what amount of coin will an S8 with a W12 command?

    Help, I'm getting dizzy.
  • that's a post.
    i want to respond more later.
    for now, i would love to see a 350hp s4 with the 2.9t, not the 4.2.
    leave the 4.2 for the 6 and 8.

    top speed in america? who cares, eh? my car goes 142, i think. never even come close to finding out though.
    those big v8's (and more) are great in germany, i'd imagine. but no one in america cruises for hours at 100+ mph. though i'd love to if it were safe and legal. but then that gets to the bad drivers in america. which is a whole 'nother story.
  • mbnut1mbnut1 Posts: 403
    I am I correct in my understanding the the 2.0 would have balance shafts?
  • Well, one would think so -- might be a pretty rough dude without them, don't you think?

    As I said before, spy shots, rumors, probabilities but not 100% certainties abound about the '03 and even '04 Audis. I'm betting the 2.0T will be here if not in model year '03 then at least in calendar '03.

    But, like a lot of us rabid Audi fans -- there is at this point much rumor mongering and only less than 100% certainty.

    I will certainly take a wager (for fun) that we will never again see the Audi 1.8T in the US at less than 180HP and that we will very probably see the minimum Audi engine have 200HP -- soon.
  • Has anyone heard any plans regarding the marriage of these 2 options?
  • wmquanwmquan Posts: 1,817
    Does anyone know:

    1) Who makes Audi's ESP system (e.g. Bosch, Continental-Teves)?

    2) Is the Audi's ESP system "full-range?" That is, does it also fully engage while braking the vehicle (instead of letting ABS take full control)? My understanding is that BMW's and MB's systems are full-range, whereas Toyota's VSC and Acura's VSA are not (under braking, the system is purely ABS).

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 11,592
    Audi's ESP system is made by none other than Mercedes-Benz (probably developed in part with bosch). If you look an an Audi brochure or maybe even on their website in the fine print that nobody reads on the back page it says: ESP is a registered trademark of Daimler-Chrysler, AG.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2015 Infiniti Q40 AWD, 2017 Honda Pilot Touring AWD

  • mbnut1mbnut1 Posts: 403
    Mark I was asking if you were refering to the engine described on the Audi Web site below which isn't currently available in NA cars. I asked because in the description below it isn't turbocharged.

    Note that it says that it has a balancer shaft for "excellent refinement". This is a additional shaft that is increasing being placed in engine configurations that aren't inhernetly balanced such as inline fours and v-6's. The new 3.0 V-6 has one as well as the new generation of Japanese 4 cylinders.

    The new 2.0-litre engine

    The other newcomer in the range of petrol engines for the new Audi A4 is the inline four-cylinder engine with a displacement of 1984 cc. This engine, with five valves per cylinder, reaches its peak torque of 195 Nm at 3300 rpm.

    This unit achieves its maximum power output of 96 kW (130 bhp) at 5700 rpm. It propels the A4 saloon with front-wheel drive and 5-speed manual gearbox to 100 km/h in 9.9 seconds, and on to a top speed of 212 km/h. And in view of the fact that this model only consumes 7.9 litres of fuel per 100 km (1999/100 EC), these figures certainly are impressive.

    The most important technical innovations:

    Continual intake camshaft adjustment for optimum engine charging
    Mapped cooling improves efficiency
    New two-position variable intake manifold for full torque and high performance
    Balancer shaft for excellent refinement
  • wmquanwmquan Posts: 1,817
    Thanks for the info on Audi's ESP. It does make sense now that it is Bosch's (or Continental Teeves) system since Audi wouldn't be able to use the ESP trademark without proper license.

    ESP was developed jointly between MB and Bosch. However, Continental-Teeves also provides ESP implementations for some MB vehicles (S-class) while Bosch provides implementations for other MB vehicles (e.g. the S-class).

    I'd imagine the systems are quite similar, though tuned differently to account for different customer/vehicle targets. Wonder how current the software releases are with what MB has in its vehicles? Probably not noticeable anyway.

    Anyway, it's an excellent system. Has anyone noticed if it's fairly aggressive (e.g. intervenes in a lot more situations) or seems to hardly go off at all (I realize one needs a baseline to truly answer this)? Some folks think the BMW and MB ones are too aggressively tuned, while some folks think the Subaru VDC system is too timidly tuned. I'd imagine with the A4's target of being a sports sedan, and having quattro and good handling dynamics in the first place, that the ESP would be tuned to be non-aggressive?
  • audibonaudibon Posts: 100
    I can't agree with you more concerning last years choice between the 1.8T and the 2.8. We gave up some amenities but felt the trade off was worth it. We couldn't afford an S4 or an A6 so we leased an A4 1.8T just about loaded to the gills with what we wanted. In retrospect the aluminum trim is a nice change from the wood that is so prolific in all luxury cars now including Audi. The other options were take it or leave for me but power seats were a big issue with my wife but couldn't see $5k going toward power seats when that was her only sticking point so we compromised. When the lease is over I'd like to get an A6 2.7T (6spd please!) but wonder if that car will even be around when we turn our car in. One can only hope. My friend is in the same quandry this year with his choice being the 3.0 but after driving the 1.8T back to back with a 3.0 it is very hard to knock the turbo engine. It has that low end torque and just wants to rev so nice to redline! And torque gives one that impression of a quick 0-60 because it launches off the line so well. He has driven an S4 and an A6 2.7T (6spd!) liked both but is torn. We would like to drive a BMW 540i with 6spd but they are hard to find. The 3 series and M cars are very nice but my friend likes the room of the Audi trunks (a golfer) and of course quattro is great. So, Audi really is caught with their hands in the cookie jar, with VW repositioning itself and Audi not quite sure what it really should do in the U.S. I hope they get their priorities in order and have the lineups make some sense. Happy motoring.
  • The A4 1.8T -- elsewhere, but NOT in the US -- can be had with leather, sat nav, power seats, and other amenities (aka options) that for some reason are deselected by AoA.

    I would think that allowing all possible options (for a given family, e.g., A4, A6, etc) would increase sales, increase market share, etc.

    Let me tell you about something I did last night:

    I went on-line to the VW of Germany web site, and clicked on Passat W8 "konfigurator." The car could be ordered with many colors metallic and pearlescent. Three interior seat/fabric combinations were available, including leather+alcantara over Recaro sport seats.

    Full graphical sat-nav, avail; tip or 6spd manual, parktronic (park distance alert) and on and on and on. Pretty much EVERY possible option that Audi offers was available on the W8 -- when fully configured a price came up -- depending on which sat nav package I configured the price was between 42,000 - and 47,000 Euro (one Euro = .89 Dollar, approximately). Wheel choices, transmission choices, summer package, winter package, built in TV tuner, sound systems, etc etc.

    On the Audi site, same thing -- I got tired of translating the German, so I went onto Audi of the UK's site -- and all the options that were avail on the W8 Passat were also available on an A6 2.7T -- and a lot more than we can have here were showcased too (on the UK Audi site, that is).

    The Audi did cost a lot more -- and truth be told, I still think the Audi is the more upscale and more sporting of the two (and an A6 is physically more car than a Passat W8). Apparently there is "no worry" about the poor consumer not being able to differentiate between the -- some might argue -- fraternal twin divisions of VW (Audi AG and VW AG).

    We do get some very nice Audi's here in the US, we are not allowed to get the combinations and permutations of them that ARE available on the other side of the Atlantic. And, the VW's that are shipped over the water are "watered down" -- big time.

    I would think if Europeans can discriminate between and among cars that we too are at least educable.

    I say bring the A3, S3 to the US, allow the A4 to have all options available that are available elsewhere. VW of America and Audi of America would, it seems to me, sell more cars in combination than they do currently.

    And, unless there is something going on that I don't know about (which there probably is) allow all the transmission engine combinations (within the engines that have been determined "appropriate" for North America) that European customers can have.

    To clarify -- I am not suggesting a 1.8T A6 -- but that IS available in Europe. AoA believes, and I agree, that the minimum engine for an A6 here in lala land should be the 3.0 V6. But, in Europe this engine is available with either an auto or manual transmission. I know it was "tried" here in the US in either 1999 or 2000 or 2001 with the 2.8 engine, and apparently it was not popular. But, the person who used to own my dealership claimed that it was more popular (in terms of inquiries) than inventory allocations suggested. But when you only have one or two to choose from, it makes it more difficult to sell.

    I have stated before -- mass customization (and I have been to the factory in Ingolstadt 6 times and I know how highly automated it is) IS possible. Many (at my dealer, MOST) Audi's sold in the US are ordered cars, not sold off the lot -- so why not allow the customer to pick and choose the car he/she really wants? Packages are fine -- but sometimes it makes sense to allow the customer to have leather seats and no sunroof and not pay extra for the privilege.

    I want the sunscreen, but not the solar sunroof -- at one point, you could not have one without the other. Then next year, the premium package contains the Xenon lights but not the homelink transmitter. Maybe there are economies of scale (and there almost certainly are). But I see no reason that one should not be able to order sport suspension and comfort seats -- but sometimes the package is sport suspension, sport seats and bigger wheels and summer tires.

    One of our fellow posters on Edmunds wanted a sport suspension in his A6 2.7T (timcar) but did not want sport seats. He elected to go without the sport suspension. On the German VW website, it is possible to mix and match -- and even more so on the British Audi site.

    When I went to college and took business courses, I was always taught to let the customer give you money if that is what the customer wants to do. I want to give them my money, but for what I want.

    I guess there will be NO Audi car available (possible exception the new S4) with a 4.2 engine and a manual transmission. So be it. But if the cars imported into the US have "forced" options -- well, I just find it either frustrating and/or disappointing.

    Take my money, please (for what I want to buy).
  • lauk0dglauk0dg Posts: 563
    There are lots of rumors out there saying the 1.8T engines on ALL VW/Audi vehicles are actually 180hp since they got to US. Believe it or not.

    Audi's explanation is that, the engine orientation in the A4 is different than the Jetta/GTI/TT orientation.....longitudinal vs traverse. The header and ducting are of course different and VW/Audi claimed that's why it has a different output.

    However, that's different from the fact that the A4 2.8 engine puts out 190hp while the A6 2.8 engine puts out 200hp. That's strictly a programming issue and there are guys out there that had tried (and I think some of them succeeded) to make the computer "think" it's inside an A6 and pumps out 200hp instead of 190hp.

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