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Honda Civic vs. Hyundai Elantra
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Honda makes a great car, no doubt about it. You also pay for it though. 15 years ago a Honda was a great deal. They cost the same if not less than a comparable Chevy or Ford and they were so much more reliable. Today they are still reliable but you pay quite a bit more than a comparable vehicle. The Honda dealers don't negotiate as much. So the question remains, do you pay more for a better car? If this philosophy suits you then a BMW 325 is a little more than a Honda, just as reliable with a much better resale value. But you know, since we're looking for that better car for a little more there's that nice Mercedes C230 for $25,000. Where does it stop? For the price Hyundai is a good value. You get alot for your money and a good warranty. Are you willing to pay more for a Honda for a frugal interior and the POSSIBILITY that it will be more reliable than a Hyundai? I wasn't.
I own a '01 Elantra GLS, and my 2+ years of ownership have reinforced n2vsw's opinion that the Civic is no longer worth the price premium. I've owned two Civics, and they were both good cars--but so is the Elantra, which I believe is as good or better than the current-gen Civic in almost every area while costing thousands less.
You picked at n2vsw's statements, yet you made some pretty strong statements yourself. For example, "... their quality is still awful." Would you care to back that statement up with some facts--more so than just your personal experience with one car? A respected third party, Consumer Reports, has just rated every Hyundai model but one (the Tiburon, too new for CR to rate) at least Average in predicted reliability. Two models, the Sonata and Santa Fe, rated Above Average. Have you looked at Hyundai models like the Accent, Elantra, Sonata, XG350, and Santa Fe lately? Have you read any third-party reviews of those cars lately? For example, Car and Driver recently rated the Elantra GLS 2nd out of nine compact cars, with the Civic rated 5th ("a loser" they called it).
You also stated that an Elantra owner would easily go over the $3000 savings compared to a Civic if the car is kept more than 5 years. How do you figure that? Suppose you wanted to play it safe and purchased the extended Hyundai warranty, about $1000, which provides transferrable, no-deductible, bumper-to-bumper coverage for 10 years or 100,000 miles. You would still have $2000 in your pocket. Unless you drive a lot of miles every year, you'll be covered for every expense except maintenance and wear items for many years--far longer than you would be with the Civic, with its 3-year, 36,000 mile warranty.
MSRP, per Edmunds, for the Civic DX is $13,470.
TMV for the Civic is $12,617.
MSRP, per Edmunds, for the cheapest Elantra (GLS w/manual) is $13,394.
TMV for the Elantra is $12,687.
Where is the extra $3,000 for the Civic coming from?
I grew up near Detroit, know plenty of Big 3 employees, have relatives working for or retired from those companies, have read about cars since age 10, and have the car "bug" in my blood. During many of those years of Japan-bashing, I was in ignorant agreement regarding the "inferiority" of those cars, just because that is the way it had always been in the past. Despite ALL of that baggage, I will still NEVER go back to an American car, especially after this good experience.
Cost-wise. No big difference. Civic LX sedan AT without option, purchased at last May, was paid for about 13,500 not including fees and taxes. GT AT was paid at the same price but with sunroof as an option last October. In fact, I traded in the Civic for the GT when there was this 1,250 rebate going on and the poor quality of the Canadian-built Civic really pissed off my wife and me.
Car-wise. GT is more comfortable on the road by filtering lots road noise and bumps. It may be the quietest car in this class (the closest competitor in this area can be the new corolla. We testdrove new Protege as well, and found it was as noisy as the Civic by the way). The heavier Elantra also makes my wife happier since she feels more secure sitting it (of course, at the expense of the burning more gas which we still can afford). Civic does do a better job on corners with less bodyrolls and a secure feel on big turns with 70+ mph. On the other hand, GT is just so-so at this field. Personally, I think Honda is still the king in terms of handling in sub-20,000 cars no matter how bad its quality has dropped. Hyundai might be going toward Toyota for more ride comfort.
Hardware-wise. Obvious that our GT is fully loaded while the Civic is just OK. If I had chosen the ABS/TCS package on my GT, it would exceed Civic EX with alloy wheels, 4-disc brakes... just to name a couple.
Overall, I feel much better sitting in the Elantra GT knowing its warranty lasts 10 years plus the extended one we purchased for under one grand. I feel nervous in the Civic, hearing everyday complaints from my friends, who do not modifying their vics, on- and off-line (espcially the scary stories about driving the 7-gen Civic in heavy rain, if you know what I mean). I fear what the Civic will be after 3 years. By the time I traded it in, it had numerous rattles all over the car. Its protecting rubber seals had started to peel off. The brake fade could be felt dramatically just after 5 months ownership (while I always feel Elantra's brakes are softer despite they are 4-disc. I will bring this to the dealer sooner or later). Me and my wife are slow drivers. The Civic was our very first new car, so you can imagine how we treated it and how sad we felt after all these. Nevertheless, we are happy with our decision and the GT has proven to us that it is better than the Civic since the day one we got it.
I think the big difference is the direction of both companies. IMHO the last gen. Civic was far superior to the present decontented one. Hyundai, just gets better and better.
I would be very interested to see what asp696's experiences really were. Did he own a late model Elantra or an early 90's Excel.
Honda was way ahead of the curve in the late eighties. Came close to buying an 88 Accord for a family member and it was so far ahead of the competition it wasn't even funny. It's sad to see the present model with its bloated Buick c-pillar and Skylark rear end. What happened? The European cars (sold as Acuras here) are a lot better. Apparently Honda's market research shows Americans want this kind of barge.
Tell us more, please.
So what was the price of the Civic vs. the Elantra? I'm still curious to see where that big $3,000 difference came from.
an Elantra over a Civic - I accept that as a rational decision. If the extra features they get are important to them and the ownership experience is positive - then they certainly made the right choice for themselves. However, your post would indicate that emotion played as big of a part as logic in your decision.
* Quote from a salesman at my local Honda dealer regarding the Elantra: "Yes, there are many fine small cars to choose from these days."
* Civics selling for well below invoice.
* Honda dealers actually advertising sale prices, not just lease rates (not a big deal in some cities, but unheard of until recently in my town).
If you go by TMV, that basically means n2vsw paid a little over $9,000 for an Elantra. I don't think even Hyundais don't sell that low.
And the dealer rarely touches the DX models when it comes to options, unless you specifically ask for them. If you want a DX with A/C and a CD player, I'm willing to bet that the dealer will point in the direction of an LX Civic. He's not even going to through the trouble of having his people install those options on the DX.
I can't imagine a dealer turning down someone's $1000 or whatever they charge these days for dealer-installed A/C, if someone asks to have A/C installed in a Civic DX. Or turn down someone's money for a stereo, either. I agree that the LX is a better value, but I guess some people do actually buy the DX models--I see them once in awhile on the road.
chalupny.... The Elantra was quite a bit less for more features and with a better warranty. That boiled down to money pure and simple. I've been known to pay more for things when I know it isn't the best choice but I overlook that for one reason or another. So money is not always the only reason. When I returned to the Honda dealer to make the deal I went there because I didn't have another viable alternative. It galled me to buy the car from them. I was treated in a condescending manner, told I needed to use their financing to get the lowest price and generally treated like I was some dope. Was there some emotion involved? Call it what you will but if this is how they treat a prospective customer how do they treat their existing customers? When I had another option that was less money and a more pleasant buying experience I gladly took it. I believe the buying experience is one of the reasons Saturn does so well. People know they are paying full sticker price and that the dealer is making a generous profit. I am told by Saturn owners that the buying experience is worth it. From YOUR post I take it you don't feel this is a valid reason for making a decision. So, are you telling me that you don't mind being treating like [non-permissible content removed] at a restaurant so long as the food is good? A dealer has to earn my business and their business practices have to reflect that. In regards to prices of Honda in general here in the Houston area, they are not very negotiable. They are in short supply so the dealers are somewhat arrogant. That fact I'm sure has a lot to do with it. I'm originally from the northeast and dealers there have all their cars lined up in front of the lots with a few pick ups in back. Here it is the other way around. More pick ups are sold than cars. Hyundais have a huge market share in Florida and New Jersey why? I don't know but market area affects price. If you live in an area where dealers really negotiate on Hondas and are great and happy salesmen then more power to you.
I am sure Honda and Toyota will be more than happy to sell the car to them as MSRP coz' most of the time, the cars will be sold below MSRP. So, there's no haggling involve just like the Saturn dealerships. In fact they might save a few hundred if not thousands coz' the cars might actually be sold at below MSRP.
I think what it is is basic human nature/instinct driving the Saturn buyers. They don't want to feel that they paid more than the next person but it is ok if everyone paid full price at the Saturn dealerships.
So, my hyphothesis is they buy at Saturn not because of the experience. I believe it is because they do not want to hear from their neighbor down from where they live, they paid $100 less than what they paid if they bought the same Honda or Toyota. What do you think?
I think they based the price of the car based on what competitors are selling their cars at.
Here's an example. I just picked up a Saturn car randomly.
2002 Saturn S-Series 3dr Coupe SC2 with:
- 5 speed
- 15" alloy
- Sunroof
- ABS
- dest
MSRP = $18,295 Invoice = $16,556
Note that invoice is more or less what the Saturn dealership paid GM.
Now, for an equiv. car, say a Honda Civic EX Coupe
Everything that I added on the Saturn SC2 is standard on the EX Coupe.
Here's the price:
MSRP = $17,270 Invoice = $15,824
As you can see, the MSRP of the Honda is even lower than that of the SC2. I'm sure if you look up an Accord and L series, the Honda MSRP is probably a little higher than Saturn but that's coz' Accord is a better selling car.
To tell you the truth, I was expecting the SC2 MSRP to come below that of Civic EX Coupe prices.
You are assuming a comparable Saturn MSRP will be somewhere bet. the MSRP and Invoice price of a comparable Civic or Corolla (for example). Well, it looks like in the case of SC2 and Civic EX Coupe, that's not the case.
Also, isn't it the invoice price that matters? The Saturn dealership is making $1700 just for being there and if I paid MSRP for the Civic, they make $1400. Still less than the Saturn. Anything less is sugar obviously.
Besides, Saturn is not like a BMW where the customers is charged MSRP almost every single time. But that's because almost all BMW dealership charge MSRP. So, what if all Honda, Toyota, GM, Ford etc. starts charging MSRP like Saturn? But of course we have to agree that the MSRP for other cars are representative of the cars' value just like Saturn.
Your mistaken if you think I'm upset that he didn't deal with me or that I think Honda's are over rated. I've mentioned more than once in my postings that I had no preconceived notions about either car. I did after all go to a Honda dealer so that shows I was interested in the car. What I don't have to put up with is the attitude. I didn't and I left. I got this same attitude from another Honda dealer in Houston. Is this coincidence? I have no idea, call it what you will. All I know is that I didn't buy a Honda because I didnt care for the way I was treated. Am I insinuating that all Honda dealers are like this?, no I'm not stupid, I'm sure there are Honda dealers out there who are great. The trouble is I'm not going to travel 100 miles to that great dealer somewhere. If the dealer is lousy on the buy, what are they like on the service? I will however, say you are nuts if you are treated this way and put up with it, they need you not the other way around.
Lastly let's look at your comment "This whole "everybody mistakenly thinks Honda's are better than they really are" argument is old and weak. I sometimes wonder if the people who use this argument are those who fear they have made the wrong choice - but desperately need to justify their choice to themselves and others." Yup, I think that I got a great deal and I'm happy with what I bought. Am I "spouting" it as you say? I sure am, but I'm doing it on a Hyundai board. Thats what this board is here for. You don't see me going to the Honda board and bashing the Honda's right? I'm sure the people who bought Honda's are very happy with them and they discuss it among themselves over on their board. It's pretty obvious that it is you who has the problem, the fact that you like Hondas is pretty obvious from your rhetoric and yet here YOU are on the Hyundai board telling us all how, in your opinion, we didnt get a better car for a lower cost. Maybe you got lost in the board selection process? you meant to click on Honda and somehow ended up here. I'm pretty sure you'd be much happier over there though, You can all pat each other on the back at what great cars you all have.
You're right when you say that not all Honda dealers treat their customers poorly. I'm sure that there are plenty of them out there that put customer service first. My problem is that I've never been into one. My local Honda dealer is the only one in this county of close to 500,000 people, and darn well knows it. I've shopped there several times over the last 12 years (and a change of ownership on their part, which didn't seem to help) and while they're usually polite, there's always this unspoken attitude that they'd be doing me a favor to sell me one of their precious cars. I found this to be uniformly the case at several different Honda dealers in three different cities where I've lived over the years.
I really like Hondas. I've driven a lot of them and have owned several of their motorcycles over the years. Both my brother and sister have driven nothing but Hondas for years and have had fabulous luck with them. But I've never been able to get past the attitudes of the salespeople I've worked with. By contrast, all three of the Hyundai dealers I visited when I bought my GT were very friendly and genuinely seemed to want to do what it took to earn my business.
If you want a Honda and the local dealer is a jerk, my thought is to net shop. By-pass the sales hooey. If you think you're trapped with a specific dealer, you are; but it's not necessary. The service shop will take care of your car, and you've got the Honda org to back you up if they don't.
To be fair, you can take a look at the Hyundai boards and find all kinds of examples of not-so-great dealers. So they're all over. The two Hyundai dealers I've used in my area have been fine so far, so no complaints there.
The supermarkets in my area are similar - the ones with less business have the better customer service.
my dilemna is whether to choose motor and transmission quality despite mediocre interior and exterior finish (civic), or excellent fit and finish, features, and motor reliability and mediocre transmission reliability (elantra) when i buy my next car.
(btw, i had a new '91 hyundai excel that is still on the road with no problems whatsoever.)
I do remember the Hyundai's of the 80's. They looked great new and sold cheap. The prob was, they started falling apart, literally, within 3 years. That kind of rep is hard to shake.
Hyundai's doing better these days? Great! If they keep it up long enough, the new rep will stick. 'Till then, if the quality is actually good, Hyundai buyers get a bargain.
Honda, Toyota, and Datsun went through this in the 60's-70's. Datsun blew it, IMO, and became Nissan (and blew it again).
You just can't take good money from consumers for junk and expect to bounce right back.
Anybody eager to see a new Yugo? Even at a bargain price?
I guess you haven't looked at Nissan lately either. They have some fine products now: Altima, Maxima, Murano, Z, G35 to name a few.
No big deal, though.
I don't have a take on current Hyundai reliability, but . . .
I was trying to help you get a take on current Hyundai reliability. Guess it's easier to make flip remarks about Yugos than keep up to date on what is going on in the auto industry with Hyundai, Nissan, etc. That's cool though.
"Not surprisingly, Honda made more money per car than any other automaker, $1,661. That's nearly $400 more per car than Nissan Motor (nasdaq: NSANY - news - people ) and $500 more than Toyota. GM was the only domestic producer to make money: just $337 per car. Ford Motor (nyse: F - news - people )? It lost $1,913."
http://www.forbes.com/2002/11/14/cz_jf_1114honda_print.html
I also agree, it's easier to make flip remarks than to engage the issue.
The early Hyundais were a travesty, though. I never owned one, but I had too many friends and associates buy Hyundai vehicles that would not outlast the note.
From what you're saying, Hyundai is attempting to recoup that early lousy rep for reliability and durability. That's a good thing.
My comparison to Yugo wasn't frivolous. Imagine what it would take for anyone to buy a Yugo, given the history, if they were to attempt a comeback. Suzuki, IMO, is fighting that battle, too.