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I bought a 97 Neon with 65K at a Toyota dealership in Minnesota two weeks ago and it was giving me a Service Engine code of 32 as soon as I drove it off the lot. I took it back to the dealer and they took it to a garage down the street to "clear the code" for me. I kept talking about fixing it, they kept talking about clearing the code--I was worried. I live in Washington DC now so I flew back on Friday, picked it up at the dealership and headed East, back to DC. All was well until 400 miles later, just east of Chicago, the light comes back on again and it gives me the same code. Now I'm pissed. The salesman isn't at work, the mechanic isn't at the shop, so I press on. 300 miles (and a migrane-induced 2 hour nap at a rest stop)later, as I'm crossing Pennsylvania, I look down and the light is off again. I pulled into DC last night and all seems to be fine. The invoice from the auto shop is in the glove box and it reads:
**Check Engine Light On, Inspect and Advise***
--------------------------------------------------
SCAN AND CLEAR CODE
CODE 401//EGR SYSTEM FAILURE STORED, CLEARED CODE & TEST DROVE,
SIGHT STAYS OFF. CODE DOES NOT RETURN. DROVE SEVERAL TIMES ON 9/6
LIGHT STAYS OFF.
PARTS TOTAL: 0.00
LABOR TOTAL: 55.00
SHOP SUPPLIES: 4.40
HAZARDOUS WASTE: 1.25
INVOICE TOTAL: 60.65
So it doesn't look to me like they "fixed" anything as much as they just tried to make the light go off. I suspected this beforehand since the dealership will spend as little money as possible to fix it once I've bought it, despite the 30 day/1,000 mile warranty that came with it. It ran perfectly all the way to DC, except I noticed some water leakage on the ground under the reservoire twice when I got gas. Should I complain to the dealership? Take it to a Dodge dealer or a regular mechanic out here and send them the bill, or just drive it and hope the light stays off? What gives?
Anyway, it's in fantastic shape and I love to drive it. I'm definitely happy I did my homework and it doesn't appear that the EGR failure is anything major, so I'm a happy camper, all told.
Good luck with the 02's. They sound sweet.
-j
Seriously, I guess I have to eat my words now about the Neon. I know my ex-roommate hasn't had any trouble lately from his. His daughter did wreck her 1996 though. Slid into a guard rail in the rain. Must be a pretty safe car, because she walked away from the crash. So anyway, apologizing for all the flaming posts about the Neon. Guess they aren't half-bad after all.
And let prayers be with everyone after yesterday's terrible tragedies in the US. God bless everyone involved in that, and their families, co-workers, and friends too. People here in the MD/DC area have been driving around with their headlights on to show support for the victims affected. Sounds like a pretty good idea to me.
My "nasty" comments were said in jest, even though - admittedly - written sarcasm isn't exactly the easiest thing on earth to decipher (particularly when it's authored by someone you don't know personally).
Not to sound hokey, but I think a lot of people (and virtually everyone who takes the time to post to auto boards) see their choice of automobile as a reflection of their personality. Picking out a car isn't like buying toilet paper - it's an exercise in personal expression (yes, I have a degree in marketing). This is why I TRY (sometimes I don't always succeed) to tread cautiously when I express my opinion of cars I do not like.
I think EVERY car has its strengths and weaknessess. Even the Chevrolet Cavalier, a car I personally dislike, has some undeniable strong suits: price, long-term dependability (ever heard of anyone whose had engine or transmission problems with their Cavalier?), and a very extensive dealer network. For someone who values these strengths more than others, I can see how it could be a very appealing car.
Personally my small car faves are the beautifully appointed VW products. I can't help but be smitten by their extremely tasteful, upscale interiors. Unfortunately, I can't ever see myself justifying the high purchase and maintenance costs of a VW.
To me, the Neon is not only a very appealing car (it's stylish, roomy, and even the low-end models are a blast to drive with the stick), but it's also a great value.
I can't aruge that the Neon is a good value. I guess my ex-roommate just got a bad one, like I got a bad Protege. Things happen though. Also, I would love to have a Jetta 1.8T. Didn't get one because I heard about reliability problems. Five people who work in my office have Jettas (all VR6 and 2.0s though), and not one of them has had a problem. Go figure. Guess next car I get will be what I want exactly, and I will stop listening to Consumer Reports on everything.
I believe Honda and Toyota build some very high quality automobiles, but rest assured, their service departments do more than just oil changes too.
All told, I think vehicle longevity is 50% engineering/build quality and 50% owner maintenance. I'm currently driving a 1991 Chrysler New Yorker 5th Ave. with 175,000 miles on it and it's in mint condition (the original owner was - of course - an old fart and the car was babied). I was planning on driving it till the wheels fell off, but that hasn't happened yet (and the way things are going, it might not happen 'til 2008).
I bought this car no more than a month after looking at a 1993 Honda Accord 5spd EX with 105,000 on the clock - exactly what I thought I was looking for at the time. Despite Honda's reputation for long-term dependability though, this car was SHOT at 105K.
I recall the test drive vividly. The driver's seat rocked back and forth, the brakes made a horrendous sound and every time they were applied the vehicle pulled strongly to one side, a radio button was missing and the fan knob was cracked in two, the clutch was worn-out and the car vibrated so bad at idle I thought the doors were going to fall off. And these are only the items I can still recall from 3 years ago. Rudy Luther's Hopkins Honda asking price BTW, $9500. No joke.
Apparently, it had been owned by one of these idiots who believe the mantra: just buy oil changes and gas and your Honda will last forever.
My current car is the most reliable car I've ever owned and I bought it with 140K on the odo.
The most unreliable car I've ever owned: a 1991 Isuzu Stylus XS I got NEW and crashed at 60k. Interestingly, it was a Japanese car BUILT in Japan. Just goes to show that Japanese and high quality are not always synonomous.
As far as Consumer Reports is concerned, recall that it was this same magazine that RECOMMENDED the 1995 Neon six years ago in their annual auto issue. I worked with a guy who bought a 1995 Neon for this reason and has bad-mouthed Consumer Reports from that day on.
Now Chrysler is building solid, reliable Neons (that seem to come in high in every quality indicator except those of CR) and Consumer Reports can't find enough bad things to say about them. Go figure indeed.
I agree with you, Vocus. Next time I buy new (or used for that matter) I'm getting what I want and I don't give a flying damn how CR rates it. It seems the more "flavor" a car has, the less they tend to like it. Of course, they are engineers, not automobile afficionados. Well, no Toyota Corolla for me, thank you anyway.
My Pro's in the shop right now, with a funny squeak in the transmission on the 3-2 downshift (among other things), and they told me they can't find it. They hear it, but don't know how to fix it. That's real nice to hear. I told them they better act right and put a new tranny in there, because I am not about to drive a car with a known problem in it, so I can be stranded. I ain't havin' it.
Neons are great don't get me wrong, but cars are not refrigerators.They don't go for 20 years without something wearing out. Given the infinite #s of driving and maintenance habits, it's amazing they last as long as they DO!
C/R people are hardly "engineers", but I doubt they interpret their own reader data without bias against domestic vehicles.I think they're elitists more than anything else.
I don't own a Neon but I really believe a lot of people go into a domestic vehicle LOOKING for things to go wrong so they can prove their assumptions.The bad mouthing was so great about the Neon that I crossed it off my list.Unfortunately that wasn't very fair.
Was glad to read the post re: the Cavalier. It does reflect what I like in a car re: the engine and trans. It's so yestertech, if they keep it in production as is any longer,it'll be retro!22,000 miles and no problems and I like it's simplicity. It's straight forward like my 63 Valiant which I've owned for 20 years- I know where everything is under the hood, parts are cheap and I can identify everything and even possibly replace things myself if I have to.
The prices for a new Neon are great. I imagine a lot of them will be sold as a hedge against potential oil shortages in the coming months and hope it makes a whole new group of fans for D/C.
And you might be interested to know that it is widely believed that the Ultradrive unit in my 1991 New Yorker with 175K on the odometer is completely original. I had it inspected before I purchased it and once by the guys at Aamco (it still operates with the fine precision of an Armitron watch) and the consensus is that it's not a rebuild. I'm thinking of contacting Chrysler to see if they're interested in placing it in a museum. Just think, I could be driving the longest-lasting Ultradrive on the planet.
On a different note...
Good luck finding a decent, honest mechanic in DC, Zapatista. And if you do, constantly shower him with gifts and praise so that you may never lose him. I have been living in the Twin Cities area all my life, and I've never found a truly competent mechanic or a shop I can really say I've trusted.
So before you decide to fix your car, consider the complexity of the problem, its effect on the life of the vehicle and how much it bothers you personally. If it's anything more complicated than a brake job, alternator replacement or muffler installation and you don't believe it will adversely affect the life of a major mechanical component if it's not attended to, consider living with it. Warning lights can be covered with opaque adhesive tape and strange sounds can easily be masked by a stronger amplifier and more powerful speakers. There are usually other options than repair.
After giving it some serious thought, if you still decide to fix the car at this point, do some research and try to find the shop most likely to be able to actually fix the problem you're having. For example, while places like Car-X may have the best deals on the "easy fixes", anything more complicated than a wiper-blade replacement can easily baffle their crack team of experts and end up costing you more money in the long run (not to mention the loss of your time). A shop that spends half its time advertising low prices is NOT the place to take your car if you actually need a problem troubleshooted (or is it troubleshot?). So save the $10 off coupon at Precision Tune for the next time you really know you need new spark plugs.
Try to get a referral from a friend who has lived in the area for a while and if no one is of help there, pull out the phone book and pray for the best. I will give you this piece of advice in the event the inevitable happens though. Document EVERYTHING!
It may not be in your power to keep auto repairs from being a major headache in your life, but you can make sure you avoid letting them become financial nightmares.
Before you go in the shop, take out a clean sheet of paper and write down the problem you're having in the finest detail possible (e.g., if it only happens after the car has been driven at freeway speeds for 6 hours or if the moon is in its final phase, WRITE THAT DOWN). Then make two copies (one for your records, one for the shop). I know it seems completely anal, but you'll be happy you did this after you fork over $200, leave the shop and find the problem re-occurring 3 miles down the road. I speak from experience.
ALWAYS make sure you charge ALL automobile repairs (to your credit, not your debit card). This way, when you find out your car has not been fixed properly (which happens 90% of the time if you wear a size 12 sneaker, drive a big Chrysler and think Depeche Mode still rocks), you have some means of recourse.
At this time, you can go back to the shop and try to have them resolve the problem. And if they tell you to piss off, write them a letter and produce 3 copies (one for you, one for the credit company and one for the shop). State in it - explicitly - that you are disputing the charge as the services you requested from the shop (and for which you were charged) were never received. Send the letters certified mail.
Why do this? Because if you pay with cash or write a check, you'll have to take the shop to small claims court if you ever want the problem resolved. When you pay with a credit card, you can dispute the charge and the card issuer will act as a mediator between you and the shop. And until the dispute is resolved, your card company can't charge you interest (so it won't drag-[non-permissible content removed] on the issue).
About a year ago, I took my car into a less-than-honest shop in Burnsville because it was making an annoying clunk (still is BTW). I wrote the problem out explicitly when I took it in (detailing exactly when it made the sound - even noting that it tended to happen only on hot days when the car had been driven for a long duration). I ONLY authorized repairs that would fix the clunk (i.e., no new muffler, stereo speakers, air conditioner recharge, window tint, etc.). Unfortunately, you have to do this with some shops because it's much easier and more profitable for them to sell you $60 alignments than it is to troubleshoot actual mechanical problems.
My ordeal began with the "mechanic" (this was an actual repair shop too, not some high-volume franchise muffler shop) replacing a couple suspension bushings and ended with him putting in four new struts (I should mention that the old ones were only a couple years old and were of much better quality) and aligning the car. The total bill for NOT fixing the clunk came to $548 (a staggering sum that I probably will never forget and that almost made me faint when I first heard it).
And of course, predictably, this same shop that was so interested in fixing my car one week prior wanted nothing to do with me when they realized they had no idea how to actually fix the car. When I told them it was still making the same noise as when I first brought it in, they basically told me "TS". Their work was done, so to speak.
Well, four months and several well-documented letters later, they apparently waved the white flag. I'm not sure if they ever answered my card issuer's letters (they avoided contact with me like the plague), but Citibank did a charge-back to the repair shop and cleared my account. Buoyant 1, Dishonest Repair Shop 0.
So...long story short, finding an honest AND competent shop is not always possible. Just use your best judgment and be sure to cover your butt at all times.
Ideally, your problem will get fixed and you'll go along your merry way. If your luck is anything like mine when dealing with the auto repair industry though, well...I just hope you keep good records and like to argue.
A side note: my car still makes the clunking noise (I've learned to accept and live with it by properly adjusting the volume on the brilliant-sounding Infinity sound system), b
I do believe C/R people are engineers....and elitists.I really think they have encouraged people to investigate products to the point of paranoia.And I am not saying I'm immune to it. Just take it with a pound of salt. Dave
I live and work on the Hill. I'm willing to take it anywhere that I can get back home on the Metro while they work on it. The code it's giving me is a 32--EGR System Failure. Some folks on the neons.org board have had the same problem and it seems to be a minor issue that sometimes just goes away (a la Buoyant's approach to auto mechanics) and other times is remedied for a maximum of $200 for a new sensor and labor, or something like that. Some even have decided to block off the EGR system entirely. If you have any suggestions of Metro-accessible shops that are trustworthy, I'd greatly appreciate it.
Buoyant--Sounds like you and I live by the fate meted out to us by Murphy's law. I blame my Irish grandmother.
Out of curiousity, is the light coming on red or amber in color? Amber warning lights can usually be ignored (particularly if they come on intermittently) whereas the red ones signal impending doom.
Personally, I would ignore any orange light signaling a malfunction in the emissions system.
But if the light REALLY bothers you, invest $3 in an allen wrench, pop off the gauge cover and pull the thing out completely. This way you'll have that fresh finished look (no tape) and then you can take the $197 you saved and blow it on a new 20" Color TV, 120 Steak Chalupas or perhaps a ceramic kitty-cat if you're into that kind of thing.
Thanks for the Reed Brothers advice. It's an amber light that comes and goes and I might give it a few more days to see if it goes away again. If not, I think I'll take it up to Rockville and maybe play some pinball at Jillian's at White Flint on the way back (why is it that there are no dart boards or pinball machines in this entire city? The things I miss about Minnesota......)
Thanks again for the help.
Open-endedly sounds like a discription of our newest made-for-TV war, "Operation Infinite Justice."
Anyway, Three problems I've had....One of which I've solved myself. 1. Bolt-on wheel covers make an annoying clicking/rubbing noise when the car is in motion. I believe the wheel covers rub against the wheel itself or the tire. Tightening didn't help in my situation. I solved this with a set of $40 wheel covers from Wal-Mart. Yes, Wal-Mart.... 2. Either the clutch slips or the engine hesitates every now and then. I was very suprised when my dealer couldn't duplicate the problem. I'm suprised they're able to muddle their way through oil changes. I've more or less decided to live with the problem until it does it frequently enough for me to demonstrate it to them myself. I know that if I tried it now, The car would refuse to play along. They seem to be tempermental like that. 3. It seems to like to attempt to stall or, on two occasions, to actually stall. The conditions were different in every instance of the problem. I tried a procedure from neon.org to use the on-board diagnostics to get stored computer error codes, but none had been stored. Interesting.
After my previous 3 vehicles, I realize that all vehicles are going to have problems. I'm not one of those who whould sit here and refuse to buy another DC vehicle for the rest of my life for two reasons. The first being it's damned foolish to say, and second of all, I've "lurked" around this board for some time, and I've seen what is said about those who act so foolishly. I look forward to seeing if any of you have had, or have heard about, either of the last two problems. I've checked all recalls and TSB's, and I don't believe there are any concerning these problems. There are, however some things on the NHTSA site posted by owners about the stalling and, in part, the hesitation, clutch.
Sorry for the lengthy post. I didn't realize that I'm probably in the contention for a record.
Someone please correct me if this info is wrong, but here's what I've ascertained so far:
You can no longer get the ES without the spoiler (which is [non-permissible content removed]-ugly IMHO) or without the less-than-stunning alloy wheels. Also, the color Cinnamon is not available on the ES this year, it is replaced by almond.
You CAN get an '02 SE in Cinnamon still (don't ask me why) and if you do go the SE route, you don't have to tolerate the iwannabeastreetracer spoiler on the back. You also get the old ES' standard 5-spoke wheel covers on the new SE (I like those better than the over-styled '02 ES alloys), but then you're stuck with the old base model's rather blase velour interior (and no upmarket diamond weave bezels on the dash or chrome interior door pulls) and the fog lights aren't even an option.
So basically...if you want a Neon with an upscale interior now, you have to learn to live with the spoiler and alloys (both of which make the car look a bit too overdone for my conservative J.Crew tastes).
Ugh!!!
I guess if I really had my heart set on a Neon (I sure used to), I COULD get an ES and have the spoiler removed at a body shop and more attractive aftermarket 5-spokes put on to replace the factory ones, but it just isn't worth the hassle - or the added cost - to me.
Personally, I've always felt that the reason for buying new over used was because you could get the car just the way you wanted it (color, transmission, options, etc.). If I didn't care about getting exactly what I wanted, I'd just go out and buy another used car - they certainly make more sense financially.
I'd been planning on ordering a new Neon as soon as the Ultradrive on my current car finally crapped out, but I'm rethinking that now.
One of the things I used to love so much about the Neon before was the ala carte option menu (e.g., I wouldn't be forced into buying leather or boy-racer plastic Pontiacesque tack-ons to get to options I really want - like the in-dash disc changer and the sunroof).
With that gone, the Neon has dropped a couple places on my shopping list (from first to third to be exact). It's still a nice little car, but unfortunately, I can no longer get it done "my way". And that makes all the difference to me.
Hopefully with the growth of Internet buying and ordering, the public can make it's needs known, eh?
If you offer only one kind of window system (or only one kind of any system), your development costs are less.
At least on the old R/T (pre-2000) you could delete those goofy looking stripes that ran down the top of the car. So in my mind, you should be able to delete off the goofy looking spoiler on this new ES.
IMO the new Neon design looks MUCH better without the spoiler, and I'd bet I'm not the only consumer with this opinion.
What totally baffles me is why everyone is so nuts about spoilers nowadays. They serve no function on passenger cars (which don't go fast enough to benefit from them) and they add weight. The fact that Kia is slapping them on their crapboxes should tell you something. They are today's vinyl woodgrain applique - only there because some people think they look "neat."
I was hoping that Chrysler would actually IMPROVE the Neon ES for '02. You know...more noise insulation, a tweaked engine with an extra 5 ponies, standard side airbags...something like that. They should've just left the damn thing alone.
Regards,
I.M. Upset
I just tipped over 60K miles with no mechanical problems yet except two:
1: a couple years ago the odometer got borked somehow and started running too fast, and unfortunately there's no way to find out the real, correct mileage anymore, so the 60K showing on the numbers is almost certainly high. It doesn't matter to me, as I intend to keep the car until one of my younger sisters is old enough to drive. Either that or until I'm absolutely positive that getting a new car (wanna 2002 WRX) is the right thing. I can afford it right now, and interest rates are GREAT, but I work for a technology company, and you can all probably fill in the rest. ;-)
2: Lately, the gauges have been mis-behaving. I'll be driving along and suddenly the speedometer quits registering, and the odometer stops turning (thereby making up some of the false miles!). If I keep driving, eventually the tacho starts acting up, and if I'm driving a LONG time the temp gauge will go haywire and run up to the top peg. I took it to a mechanic I trust (how many of THOSE are left?) who said that, as the car ages, the dashboard isn't fitting as tightly as it should, and there isn't enough "give" in the connections for the gauge pack to compensate. Anybody have any advice on this?
Other than that, no complaints. Original engine, exhaust (altho the muffler is looking a little blistered lately), brakes, etc. I baby this car, with clockwork oil-changes and frequent vacuuming/washing/waxing.
My father, who's an auto shop teacher, frequently attends car shows, and once ran into a Chrysler man who said ("off the record" of course!) that Neons are the epitome of the bipolar car: if you get one and put 10K or 15K miles on with no problems, you have a winner. If you suffer any major mechanical problem (alternator, head gasket, brakes, clutch) in that time period, you should trade it IMMEDIATELY, as the car is a bum-build.
DjB
Just a few weeks after purchasing my car, my wife and I took a weekend excursion and found the car to be very comfortable.
With 3K on my car I must admit I enjoy it much more than I expected. I just sold my 87 Mazda 323 that had about 180K - it was my first brand new car and I loved her. It was hard to see her go, but my new Neon helps me carry on.
As the front end is VERY low, in going up the driveway, the front bottomed out and a black box about 12 inches cubed fell from underneath the passenger-side front fender. It appears to have been connected with a black hose, but the box is not air tight or contain any fluid. Dealer told me it was a " speed control box", but he didin't know what it was for. Four months now we haven't replaced it ($80 dealer installed)car runs great, same mileage, cruise control still works. What the heck does the thing do???? Should I get it replaced??
It´s a sharp looking car, and the exhaust sounds great; it´s a blast to drive it.
This is the 5th. Neon in our family, sounds crazy but they had been reliable.
Does anyone see a flaw in that thinking?
"Hey you, come here. Want to buy a Neon?"
Out of curiosity, Lee, was the selling party a dealer? If not, you might want to steer clear of that particular car. If you bought it, that would make you the 3rd owner of a 1 year old car - kind of a frightening proposition.
Rental cars may have low miles, but they haven't been babied. Every time I feel myself getting tempted by one of those newspaper ads featuring 2001 Neons starting at $8995, I recall how I drove my last company car and quickly flip the page.
Also, If you really want to check out the vin number go to carfax.com they will tell you what kind of car it is, the trim level, who has owned it and if it has had any major repairs or accedents
By the way--what's up with this whole "pre-owned" instead of "used" car thing? Wouldn't a pre-owned car be "new" car? I mean, you don't watch previews of a movie after it's already left the theaters, right? Pre-game warmups after the final buzzer? I know it's supposed to be short for "previously," but it seems to be improper use of a prefix for smarmy sales people who are afraid to call it what it is--a used car. It just bothers me. I'll shut up now.
Just curious...
Hey vocus. I trust you're enjoying your new ride.
Beyond the first post regarding your decision I think all the rest should have been to you via e-mail. JMO.