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However, if the Audi Financial ship turns around, I would accept the lower horsepower performance of the Audi and take it, because despite my other comments and concersn, I still think it (the A6) oozes class.
And, good as the Infiniti is, there is still that psychological sense that no Japanese car -- yet -- has quite cracked the code on "feel behind the wheel."
The Infiniti seems to be the closest Japanese car yet in that quest for the Holy Grail.
The value proposition -- which is not simply the money -- is THE issue.
My issue is -- I do not see the value in a significantly higher monthly payment on a lease. It is either an indication of poor resale (the residual is low) or of a non-competitive money factor.
In a world called "virtually equal" insofar as this aspect would be concerned the Audi would still get my $ vote. Indeed even in a world where the Audi was more expensive (to a point) it would get my $ vote.
Maybe Audi has spoiled me. Maybe they have changed and I have remained the same.
A friend of mine bought a 2000 or 2001 BMW 5 with the 6 cylinder engine, no navigation system and premium, sport and several other options that cranked the MSRP to $49,999 and change. At that time, I think BMW may not have had "free maintenance."
I let him drive my Audi A6 4.2 sport which did have navi and several other packages which increased its cost to ~ $50,750. One day, he asked if he could drive my "innie" (he kidded me and always put "outties" down -- get it "outtie" and "innie" -- oh brother.)
He hit the entrance ramp to one of the Interstates here in River City and floored my 300HP Audi and the thing "leapt forward" as if it had been poked with a cattle prod. He stopped calling it an "innie" right then and there.
He asked me how much it cost, when I told him and he figured out that my AWD V8 Audi cost virtually the same (at MSRP) as his RWD 6 cylinder Bimmer, he asked me how Audi could sell cars with this much goodness and power for this much money.
In this particular Epiphany, he came to realize that to achieve (and surpass) this kind of performance would require the 5 series with the V8, which would have shot its price up, based on how it was optioned out, by some $6,000 to $10,000 -- and when it "weathered" here is SW Ohio, my friend drove his Jeep or called me to pick him up, as his RWD Bimmer was virtually useless when the coefficient of friction dropped during our mostly moderate winters.
Starting in 1977 with my first Audi 5000, I would, as each time my wife or I came ready to move on to a new car, read up on the competition. Rarely, very rarely, was I moved to test drive a competitive brand (competitive either in "content" or msrp, i.e.)
As I told the reporter from Business Week, it has only been in the VERY recent past (perhaps 6 months) that I began to consider something other than an Audi product might tempt me (or my wife).
Audis products, in my fairly extensive experience, have improved -- that is, each Audi we have acquired since 1977 has been a step forward in at least several different aspects: quality, reliability for certain (despite some folks howls to the contrary, all our Audis did move forward in this regard), features, functions, content, competence, performance, power, styling even -- in every way, every Audi we have owned since that first 1978 model Audi 5000 and that first 1979 Audi [silver] FOX GTI, had/has been "better" than the one it replaced.
Moreover, every Audi "seemed" insofar as this analysis can ever approach being "objective" a better value than anything that it could reasonably be compared with.
When my friend got that BMW 5 (I mentioned above) and I my Audi A6, and he called me when we had but a trace of snow on the ground because his car was "slip slidin' away" and I knew that our cars cost about the same at MSRP, and mine had a V8, AWD and a lower monthly lease payment -- I thought Audi would ultimately (eventually) be "the leading" German import -- for if you drove and priced Audis and BMW's (for instance) the Audi virtually always gave you so much more for your money in every way (performance, warranty, power, features, content) AND came with quattro -- well, I assumed that it was but a matter of time. . . .
Dr. Piech, the so-called "father of quattro" proclaimed that "eventually all premium sporting sedans (and other cars too) would offer AWD."
The man was a profit, and for at least 15 years I thought he must've been smokin' something 'cause no serious car company, thus far, ever seemed to take AWD seriously. Sure, in 1988, BMW dabbled a bit with the 325ix and even Mercedes came out with their overly complicated (at the time) 4Matic, but Audi had moved to offer AWD across the entire product line as early as 1984 (of course so much of the engineering and content "greatness" was overshadowed by "unintended acceleration.")
Now, today, "the foot is in the other shoe." Dr. Piech's "prophecy" is coming true -- like, now, like, all-at-once. Yet Audi with 25 years of leadership is moving (in my mind) from leader of the pack to "member" (front-runner, but member) of the pack. And, the heck of it is -- simultaneously there is no discernable marketing campaign to promote Audis history, heritage and engineering leadership -- juxtaposed with either an insane or inane "get them on the street" tactic (or strategy?) of pricing them slightly lower at MSRP but "beyond the tolerance of reasonable" lease prices when all the competition is coming out with -- finally -- truly competitive cars. Many with AWD, most with content equal to Audis and with market perceptions that, unfortunately, rate them equal to or higher than Audi's current rank in the pecking order of Premium cars.
Hence my frustration, hence my "value proposition" concerns.
Now, today, if my friend were to drive up in his new 530 BMW it would cost over $3,000 more than my new A6 3.2 at MSRP and be over $100 per month less on a lease. Despite my fondness for AWD, this discrepancy strikes me as either arrogant or just plain dumb.
In May, if the new 5 series AWD Bimmer is similarly priced (plus the added ~$2K for AWD) and the price is about the same as the A6 3.2, I can only assume that some folks will not even consider the Audi, because it will have lost an extremely valuable piece of market differentiation and has not capitalized on "all the goodness and goodwill" created over the past 25 years.
More's the pity. More's the pity.
Besides, the M35x is VERY COMPETITIVE, both in content/performance and MSRP -- I can see its attraction was the point I was trying to make with my colleagues at lunch.
My comparison was with my sport suspension equipped A6 V8. The price comparison, NOT the model designation was the basis of my story. I was not and if I did, did not mean to suggest that an Audi A8 was comparably priced with a 530 Bimmer.
The common assumption was that there were 3 models of the Audi A6 and three of the BMW 5 series and that they were marketed in the US to compete with each other.
On paper, these three cars from their respective companies were, in terms of power, low, medium and high, although the 2.7T was quicker and faster than the middle BMW.
The price, however made a match between the middle BMW and the top Audi a more likely comparison.
When one could acquire a V8 sport equipped A6 OR a BMW 6 cylinder also sport equipped for approximate money (and the lease even more favored the Audi) the Audi could "beat" the BMW in many ways.
This was the basis for the value prop I have been on about (that I am concerned Audi has either lost or forgotten).
If I somehow suggested that I was comparing an A8 to the 530, I misspoke. I was comparing the Audi 4.2 to the 530i based on the closeness of their MSRP's at the time.
However, in point of fact, the 2.7T version was more capable in many respects based on its high torque and horsepower. At that time, the Audi 2.7T & 4.2 A6's were on C&D's 10 Best.
The current, new A6, IMHO should have made the cut this year -- but alas it did not grace C&D's top 10.
Danger Will Robinson, Danger!
thanks
VW is also developing a new 3.6 liter, 280-hp V6 for the Passat's debut in early 2006. If I'm a new A6 owner with the 3.1 liter 255-hp motor, I would not be a happy camper when I learn about the better endowed VW, or if Audi decides to offer the bigger engine a year later.
The Passat now shares the new Golf/Jetta platform, and much of the content (suspension/steering, hvac, etc).
I would suspect the A6 has a more refined drive...but it's just speculation.
They have good power, they just need a serious diet.
I think the A6 is a great car, inside and out. But 'feel' is just as important as anything else. I've driven both the 3.2 and 4.2, and the 3.2 'feels' rather sluggish IMO. So much so in comparison with the M, that I'm not even considering it any longer.
I'm waiting for the Audi dealer to get the new-body S4 in before I sign off on the M35x, should be in the last week of the month. I want to see how the non-stick S4 drives and then it's decision time. S4's looking good.
I am in the market for the 05 3.2(or 3.1) - would think invoice + 5% would be fair(and taking into consideration TMV) but, best I've been able to do here in the mid-atlantic region is $500-750 off MSRP ...or, in another case, $1500 off(with lease) but, high MF, well above AFS' base lease rate
What have other 05 3.2 buyers succeeded with?
Indeed, the VW engine will be transverse so it won't get the true Quattro system rather AWD Passats will get the Haldex-based version of 4Motion.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Does anyone have any positive or negative feedback on this one?
especially since one dealer is trying to convince me that $750 off sticker is really going out on a limb
although with a AFS' Premier Purhase APR of 3.5%, and a down payment of @ $1K -- which I'm not willing to give
Does anyone have any positive or negative feedback on this one?
Yes. Test drive a M35x.
I was also considering the A6 3.2 and the 530. For the performance, reliability, and for the money (even at the current MSRP pricing on the M) I think the Infiniti is your best bet. Definitely check it out before you go for the Audi, Bimmer, or Lexus.
although will most likely lease....AFS' current base lease factor for A6 this month is .000129 ... of course, they're trying to get their posted MF of .000189...so far, for standard lease(not AFS Premium Purchase), I have one dealer down to .000155...and so it goes
what a game
Only $500 - 750 off MSRP seems stingy. In Maryland, I got about $2250 off MSRP (based on the new MSRP, which is $1K more than the old MSRP was). This was for a fully loaded 3.2 that will be arriving in mid-April. Even if you choose the A6 over the Infiniti M35x (like I did), you should at least tell them you are going to buy the Infiniti if they don't lower the price on the A6.
Also, just remember that the M series cars have a lot more markup in them than an A6.
Audi's margins are pretty thin at about 6%. So if a dealer gives you 700 or 800 off sticker on an A6, they're not making a killing off you. Infiniti may have $5000 in markup vs $3500 for Audi on similarly equipped cars.
thanks for input -- much appreciated....
Once again, Audi -- although fielding a fantastic car -- really has to be of the understanding that this time the Japanese are not planning on taking any prisoners.
The Audi A6 and Audi in general remain my all time, life to date, favorite cars. However, I think I have reached the point where Audi is quickly sliding off my list for the next 36 months of driving.
Some of you already will remember, that my wife has ordered a new BMW to replace her third TT (and she had a bunch of A4's, 90's, coupes and 80's before that).
If anyone from Audi ever lurks here, I volunteer, no charge, no nuttin' -- I volunteer to be one of hopefully 100's of "focus group" people.
But, I am quite surprised that no one from Audi even bothered to track me down after the March 14th BW article where I was quoted.
You'd think someone from the Customer Loyalty and Retention department would be wanting to follow up with a customer (household) that has had 27 Audis since 1977. I would think there are darn few folks who have had more than two dozen of one brand in under 30 years.
Sign of the times.
I certainly wouldn't buy a long in the tooth 2wd EClass vs the new Quattro A6. But they put it ahead of the Audi. Car and Driver doesn't compare apples to apples on a lot of these tests. C&D has always gushed over Japanese cars, though. I personally think that they're quite over-rated in many cases.
Lexus, Infiniti, Audi, Mercedes, and such all build nice cars. You have to buy what you like and not do what some magazine tells you what's best. Audi has gotten a ton of good press on the A6 and they'll be fine and sell a lot of them.
I agree with you, though, I would not let a magazine make my decision for me.
On the other hand, it is "nice" for instance that the Audi has won so many accolades -- just as it is "nice" that the three new Japanese rivals in this class are winning so many Car Editors "hearts" and even are winning objectively too (stats that is).
As the phrase goes, I would be happy to have almost anyone of these cars (well, maybe not the Jag and the BMW 5 -- at this point); Ok, I'll start over, I'd be pleased as punch to have any one of Acura, Audi, Infiniti, Lexus or Mercedes AWD Premium cars in my garage and as my daily driver (well for at least the next 36 months).
My heart belongs to Audi, but I am pretty certain my vote, this time, will be with the Infiniti M35x. Perhaps if enough of us EGPC buyers jump to Japanese (or American for that matter) the breed will improve.
I'd take the glorious sound of Audi's 4.2 V8 over the Mercedes V6 anyday....and for less money. But that's just me.
Message - #1590 Dear Mr. Hunt (former VP of Audi of America) by markcincinnati. . .
markcincinnati, "Infiniti M35/M45 2006+" #1590, 1 Apr 2005 11:11 am
:shades:
Oh - the dealer had to replace the DVD head unti before I drove off the lot - now I am eyeing the A8 - so I won't be around this board very long -
(I test drove the Acura RL several times and already have owned a BMW 535 and Volvo 460GL and a previous Audi 4000 Quattro)
Yes it will run on regular.
No it prefers premium.
But if you use regular it costs more so use regular if you are rich.
Using regular is a "false economy" but other than your wallet there is no actual harm in doing so.
Ultimately, Audis FSI's, but not this version, will use the FSI to its advantage yielding extra power and economy with CLEAN regular. Too bad we don't have any fuel that is clean -- next year is THE year for the US to convert to such fuel, so it is written.
Heck, I've been waiting for HDTV since 1999 and the best I can get is "sorta HDTV" sometimes here in Cincinnati. Maybe next year.
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Price: $10,250.00