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BMW is the standard by which all upscale sedans are measured. Almost bought one in '00. Superb styling and fit and finish. BMW is German, and so is my vw jetta glx (a frustrating experience), as well as Audi. I love my jetta w/ the vr6 engine WHEN IT'S NOT IN THE THE SHOP(!). BMW 3 series has not gotten good reliability ratings from Consumer Reports recently. BMW 5 series rated average reliability. I TRUST Consumer Reports- Repair History section is great.
If you've got the time (for unscheduled service repairs) and the $$$ to throw down, BMW is it. BMW is The Car the Japanese are trying to beat. Will the New TL reign over the BMW?
LibertyCat, of the cars you mentioned only Lexus IS, Volvo S60, and Caddy CTS appeal to me. The later two have had reliability problems. Money's tight in this economy, so only Lexus would get my biz right now.
As for the New '04 TL Concept, it's supposed to come out in October. Acura rep said that it will have 280hp, 18 inch wheels, rear-wheel drive, the latest in technological comfort and safety features, and the best audio system available--all at a competitive price for its class. Now that has me salivating.
I never gave an Acura a thorough second look because they all look bland to me, but the New '04 TL is something I've got to wait for. I wouldn't put a dollar down on a BMW, Audi, and Mercedes until I check out the New TL.
Contrast that image with that of on-going, never-ending drives to and ordeals at your dealer's service department, IF your car is consumed with an unreasonable number of "glitches".
I've experienced both images. I prefer the former as the latter has left an idelible thought of uncertainty about my car as I drive off from the dealer again and again.
But coupe version? Isn't the current CL more or less just a coupe version of the TL already? So if they kill the CL due to lack of interest, seems illogical that they would then turn around and do a TL coupe.
On the subject of AWD, I have mixed feelings. Honda doesn't have a permanent AWD design. Both RT4WD and VTM-4 are reactive systems. While both are good for all-weather capability, their benefits from a performance perspective are limited.
The rear end is NOT tape masked. This is it; this is what you'll see in the production model. The only redeeming quality of the rear vies are the dual rectangular exhausts. Those are good looking; the rest looks like a bad cross between Taurus and new Maxima.
josephacura
too bad the Acura's tranny falls apart probably before the Mustang's
And the TL tranny problem IS a big deal because it is mode widespread than you allow yourself to believe, and Honda does not have any other fix but to replace the broken tranny with a new [refurbished] one.
There aren't even any firm facts on what the standard features and performance will be.
Some have said it will move upmarket so the base TL price will not be close to a TSX with navi.
Hopefully the interior will be greatly improved with real wood and no shared interior trim and switchgear with the Accord the way the current TL has with the old Accord. Also, it's time to replace the super-weak Bose stereo system with something that actually has impressive sound quality.
The current TL's interior is only mildly upgraded from the old Accord and has some obvious pieces that are exactly the same as a 2002 Accord's.
The fake wood and fake carbon fiber interior trim are laughably unrealistic and cheap-looking.
But who knows - look at the Nissan Altima and Maxima, I am hearing complaints about ridiculous torque steer in those cars.
On the same hand it is not impossible to make torque steer negligible despite high HP and torque numbers. Example - Pontiac Grand Prix GTP. '98-2003 models have 240HP and 280 torque. 2004 has 260HP and 280 torque. And almost no torque steer! I just had a 2004 GTP for an extended test drive and could not provoke any torque steer, and I really tried.
I agree that the interior needs improvement - I'd rather pay more for the car with real wood trim than that idiotic fake stuff that's in the current model- sorry folks! I've owned two accords - but if I don't feel like I'm driving a luxury car - then what's the point. I'd also like to see the headroom increased - Acura surely must have listened to the numerous complaints about that issue
While most of these forum comments are subjective impressions - and that's cool, that's what it's all about - I think some posters have become such "fans" of a car that they spin everything to the positive and live in denial about certain issues.
For the most part, torque steer depends on the layout of the engine and use of unequal half-shafts. The actual power is a secondary factor, and power delivery (when and how the torque hit in the rev band) is also important.
I think the interior of the 2003 TL is nice, but nothing special. For comparison, I recently test drive a 30K Buick RDV. The center stack in that thing used a design very similar to my '86 Cavalier! I do prefer the look of the TSX.
Fake wood isn't a problem for me as long as it looks good. Some does and some doesn't. Real wood ends up looking fake by the time they bury it in a plastic coating to protect it from the elements.