If you have to have the same problem fixed over and over, that definitely sounds like a lemon to me. I have not heard of that problem on an S60 before.
Does anyone have any idea what the discounts or rebates are on the S60 or S60R? I have read on this site about big discounts from dealers but I can't find any anywhere.
Also, is there any reason to get a 2005 over a 2004? engine changes? exterior changes? design changes, etc.?
I am doing the obvious TL, G35, S60, 525, 9-5 comparison and it looks like the S60 could be the current leader. The 525 is too expensive and underpowered. The TL is nice but there is not a local dealer. The G35 there is no local dealer and the one contact I had with the dealer was terrible. The Saab just bores me. The S60 seems to be a nice compromise.
Any thoughts? I know this has been discussed before but not recently. I am more concerned with what actual prices paid right now are?
I am in the same boat, just starting to compare an S60R with an Infiniti G35 or an Acura TL. My wife drives a 2000 S80 T6 and I have always enjoyed that car on long trips but am looking for something a little more sporty. Pretty much ruled out the BMW 5 series for the same reason (not as much bang for the buck as an Infiniti or a Volvo or an Acura).
Anyone with any recent purchase experience of an S60R - are there decent deals out there on '05 models or are they a premium vehicle without much wiggle room in the price due to limited availability?
The S60 got a pretty significant refresh for 2005. Its hard to tell from the outside, but the inside got some major trim updates, with real wood, and a lot more of it, or aluminum. The radio design has been changed, and the premium system is a new Dolby ProLogic II system with a 6 CD in dash changer. The seats are also new. The changes make the S60 look a lot more upscale inside, and help it better compete with TL and G35. The other change is specific to T5. The 2.3L has been axed, and it now uses a HPT version of the base 2.4L, making 257hp. 2.5T and R are unchanged from last year in terms of power
Keep in mind that a well optioned S60R is a lot closer to a BMW 5 in terms of pricing than the Acura or Infiniti. Also, if you get the R, you're gonna want the manual. The automatic and S60R make a very poor combo, it basically robs the engine of all of its low end power, and make it slower (at least from 0-60) than either Infiniti or Acura. The 2.5T seems to handle the automatic best.
The 9-5 stinks, I would avoid that one. Its an old, 4-banger powered rebadged Opel. The Acura provides maximum bang for the buck, and the best NAV system. Sportiness is similar to S60, though not as much as S60 R or G35. The brakes are unfortunately weak, that is unless you get the A-spec\Brembo package with the stick, but the stick on the Acura leads to bad torque steer. Too much grunt for FWD.
An '05 G35x with everything but NAV prices around $36K, as of a few weeks ago. Handling is awesome, engine is awesome, and that exhaust..mmmmm. The Infiniti is worth taking a long look at, bad dealer aside. It also has a lot more rear seat space than the S60.. if thats important.
I don't believe there is currently any BIG money on the S60. Carsdirect shows "special pricing" about $1400 below invoice, but I'm not sure what that is. I presume some sort of manufacturer to dealer rebate.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Thanks,Lexusguy and everyone once more. I am far from being a car expert,so this definately will be a great info to keep in mind. Ya, I am trying to avoid VW as well.
You are correct. I agree with all you said. I would only get the manual in all of the vehicles mentioned. That is why the TL is enticing. The s60 just really intrigues me. As I mentioned, I can't get around the terrible dealer experience at Infiniti. I would have to drive 65 miles and wait for it every time it got serviced or had a warranty issue. I just don't have the patience for that. There is a Volvo dealer local.
You are right about the s60r. It is more than the TL by probably 5-6k. It is closer to the G35, but it is still probably 6-7k off of a 525 with any decent option set up.
Anyway, you make a good point. Maybe I should consider the T5. That still seems to have plenty of horspower at 257hp. I would probably lease this vehicle.
Other than the engine, are there any big differences between the S60R and the S60 T5, both manual transmissions?
If you could pick the TL, G35 or S60 T5, which would you pick?
The T5 and R can be configured pretty similarly. You wont get the R body work or wheels, and 0-60 in the high 5s wont be possible, but the interior is basically the same, except for R's blue gauges. If you want R's Four-C ajustable suspension, it is an option. T5s are also available with AWD.
If it were me shopping for a stick, I would eliminate the TL, as it is just a better car with the automatic. With the stick it torque-steers like a Saab. G35 6MT or S60T5 would be a tough one, as they both have their strengths and weaknesses. If AWD AND a Manual is important to you, that ends it right there, as the G35 with the stick is only available RWD. In terms of interior space, the G35 is much bigger. Me personally, I like the G35x, but that would mean an automatic. So if you live in a colder climate area, an S60 T5 AWD with the stick may fit the bill perfectly.
I noticed that on the Volvo website. The R comes standard with AWD but the T5 it isn't even an option. Once you put a few options on the T5 you are in the $36k range. I optioned out an R at $38,985. That had everything I wanted.
I did wonder about the torque steer on the T5 and on the R. That is why I noticed the R was AWD, but they don't really make a big deal about it or mention AWD in the titling of the car.
The torque steer in the T5 must be pretty bad to get that many people in agreement.
Positive. Several have complained about that, but unfortunately the 6MT option is RWD only. The 6MT also has different engine tuning, 298hp and 260ft.lbs of torque, vs. 280\270 for auto equiped cars.
Has anyone ever installed an Alpine CD changer, aftermarket item, taken from old 850, into a 2002 S60? My dealer tells me there are no adapters made for the S60 line, only the S70.
OK. I went and tried to find an R and a T5 in my area. Apparently that is not an easy thing to do. There are none near me. So, I drove a 05 2.5t w/ premium, auto, and climate. Very nice car. I may be swaying towards automatic now. I thought there was a sufficient amount of power in that car (236lbs at 1,500 rpm). That is pretty impressive.
Next I went to a different Infiniti dealer in Raleigh today since I am down here visiting for xmas. They have probably 50 g35's 2004 and 2005's. I imagine you can get a sweet deal on a 2004 but unfortunately I prefer the 2005's due to interior upgrades and power upgrades. I didn't have a chance to drive it but I did sit in it and it appears as comfy as the Volvo, probably not as comfy but close. This dealer was much better than the Richmond Infiniti salesman I dealt with.
The G is back in the game. I still prefer the interior of the Volvo, the engine/drivetrain of the G, and the looks are about tied in my book. The price is tied at about $32k with the options I picked. Just premium and auto for both.
Is this crazy, who compares a 2.5t and a G35? It is as if I can't make up my mind right? between luxury and sport?
As Volvomax said, its a reasonably fair comparison. However, I think volvomax may be (shocker) a bit biased towards the Volvo. Looks are of course subjective, I like the styling of both cars. I think the G35 sedan looks better than its '04 counterpart though. The revisions are subtle, but they help alot. I never liked the previous car's "lite-brite" tail lamps. G is also, as you said, significantly better inside. I drove a black\wood packaged car, and it looked great. The non-gloss wood they are now using, Similar to Mercedes CLS500, looks much better in person than it does in pictures.
The 2.5T has more than plenty of pull in the 0-40 range or so, thanks to lots torque and the biggest displacement 5 you can get in the S60. However, its just no match for 3.5L of Nissan VQ. The VQ V-6 has won award after award, and its pretty obvious when you lay into the throttle in the G35. Also, the G35 isnt just faster, but its a real BMW 330i chasing sports sedan. The S60 2.5T is not. It drives very nicely, but its not the same.
Then there are the AWD systems. The Volvo's is a 95\5 front bias Haldex unit, where the rears will only come on when its absolutely necessary. The G's on the other hand, is about as perfect as you can get for a sports sedan, in that its simply not there unless you want it to be. Under normal dry conditions, it drives just like the RWD car, and a quick stab of the throttle mid turn will cause some delightful oversteer, just like the regular G35. The S60 simply cant do that. The front wheels come on when needed, or you can hit the "snow" button and lock in a 50\50 Quattro style split. I'll put it this way. The G35 was good enough to be invited back for a second 10 best run. The S60 has never made the list.
The G35 is very safe, and they are the only Japanese car maker to use active head restraints. Of course now that the NHTSA has made that a requirement, it wont mean as much in the future. The G35 also handles better, has a tighter turning circle, and stops shorter than the S60, so I could argue you have a better chance of avoiding an accident all together in a G35.
As for the "thoroughly engineered" comment, I would have to argue with that. The Germans are known for engineering, and look at where Audi and Mercedes are on the JD charts. Lexus cars win the JD ratings every year they are eligable, and I think engineering has a lot to do with that. Infiniti has been chasing Lexus for the past several years for the top reliability spot. Volvo is ranked average at best.
If it were me personally, billykrebs, I'd take an '05 G35x over an S60 2.5T AWD without a second thought. My own test drive of an '04 2.5T was enjoyable, but I didnt have a problem handing the keys back over. When I took out an '05 G35x a few weeks ago, I didnt want to give it back.
Reliability and engineering are 2 different things.
Engineering is making sure the brake rotors don't overheat and catch fire during spirited driving(happened to a bunch of Infiniti's at a track event). Engineering is making sure the paint job is thick enough to stand up to a dozen years of sun and rain.
Engineering is ergonomics,and integrated safety systems.
The japanese cars are more reliable because they are as a rule less complex. Europeans take more chances in integrating new technologies than the Japanese do.
I suppose you have a point, but I'll take plain jane LS430 works every time I turn the key reliability over BMW 745i fricken iDrive has locked the ignition AGAIN engineering any day of the week.
Quite a nice debate here. I feel better that it is not crazy to compare these two vehicles. You both have valid points.
Personally, I think it will have to come down to what I want this car to be to me. Do I want Luxury first with a big dose of sport or do I want Sport with a nice dose of luxury?
Lexusguy, there is a difference between the 05 and 04 S60 on the inside. It is quite a bit plusher and upscale. Similar to the upgrades of the G35 for 2005.
I really don't like the interior of the 04 G35. I do like the interior of the '05. In my opinion, there is a big difference between the 2. The 04 looks like an Altima on the inside. It looks cheap to me.
The 05 s60 interior is quite nice. It is my favorite by quite a ways.
I went to look at both again today when the dealers were closed and took down VIN numbers for pricing quotes. By the way, I have access to VPP pricing, what exactly is that % over invoice? do either of you know? I don't have that with the Volvo.
I am going Monday morning to drive the G for the first time. That will tell a lot I think. The 05 Graphite/Taupe leather interior w/ premium is calling me for around $32k as far as I can tell.
I am going to sleep on it and not buy on Monday, but I think from all my reviews that the G is leading the charge by a hair. My dad (58) prefers the G, my brother (28) prefers the Volvo, and I (31), as I said, am leaning to the 05 G. If it was between the 05 S60 and the 04 G35 I would pick the S60. The 05 G35 is really throwing me for a loop.
It seems to me like the Volvo driver seat is bigger than the G but the G backseat is bigger than the Volvo's. Am I right?
Also, do either of you know about the leg pain experienced in the 04 G's and if that was corrected in the 05s? That could be a dealbreaker.
Thanks guys. You have been very helpful in thinking this decision through.
I'm aware the S60 got a freshened interior for '05. It is definitely a major upgrade, as the Gs is. The '04 car I drove was cheesy with badly fake strips of wood. Not as cheesy as an '04 G35, but not great. The new car is quite classy.
As for the seats, I didnt drive the cars in close enough succession to really remember how much legroom I had in front. The G35s seats are quite nice, but the Volvo's are magical. There's just no substitute for a Volvo seat. As for the back seats, the G is listed at 33.6" and 33.3" for the Volvo, but it sure feels a lot different than that. I didnt have much of a problem sitting in back in the G35, but the Volvo is REALLY tight back there. The G also has an extra foot and a half or so in cu.ft of trunk space. One other significant difference between the cars, as I mentioned before, is an extra 4 feet the Volvo needs for its turning circle. Parking will definitely be easier in the G35.
One other thing, the G should retain its value better. The S60 holds value much better than the S80, which drops like a brick, but the G35 has very very strong residual value.
I would say the driver seat in the Volvo is better but there is definitely more interior room in the G35, especially in the back seat. I don't think the G35 has a folding (or split folding) rear seat though.
If I can add some additional input. I am considering both of these cars. I have had Volvos for years. I currenlty own a 2001 V70Cross Country. I had considered the XC90 becasue of interior space. Did not like the sluggish 2.5. Looked into OSD V8XC90 but with exchange rate and expense of traveling would not be saving a great deal of money but did not want to buy when you would have to pay list price plus.Recently decided since keeping V70 perhaps a smaller car would work. Drove the G35x loved the car, feel and performance. However, in doing some reasearch found that the G did not do well in rear crash tests. It is highly likely that neck and head injuries will occur.the rear seat was much better than S60 but if safety is an issue the Volvo is much safer and done quite well in crash tests.Yet hard to pull tirgger on S60 becasue of incredibly tight back seat. If there was a new S80 would seriously consider. Resell of 80 a disaster area. bTW another issue nothing compares to the comfort of Volvo seats. Many years ago had a Camry often had back pain after driving a distance. Never had any back issues with the five Volvos I have owned.Another reason hard to stray from Volvos.
I am extremely interested in any future discussion about these cars and do find it helpful in making my own decision. Curiously to hear what billykrebs decides to do.
We definitely are thinking along similar lines. I will not be able to go by the dealership in the morning, Monday, due to icestorm and work, but I did email the very good salesman at Infiniti of Raleigh with VPP pricing on 5 models (2 04's and 3 '05's) even though I think I have pretty much ruled out the '04 G35. I just can't get past the cheap interior of the '04. It is a dealbreaker for me unless he just comes back with a ridiculously low price.
I really do like the '05 G35 and all research I have done shows that Infiniti fixed all the issues from the 03 and 04 models, namely the interior, brakes, transmission sudden acceleration, and exterior mods. I see the engine upgrade as just a bonus that makes it even more difficult.
On the flip side, I have a wife and 2 young daughters so safety is paramount to me. That is why I am really interested in the Volvo along with the unbelievable seats. I have a bad lower back and seat comfort and head room is critically important to me. I am only 6'1" but I prefer an upright seating position to reduce the stress on my low back along with lumbar support. I am only 31 so it is not like I am an old bag but I have had a rough athletic life.
Today I am back to 50/50 on the 2005 G35 and the 2005 S60 2.5t. Another issue will be when I call the Infiniti dealer 65 miles away in Richmond when I get back home tomorrow and see if the Service Mgr. validates what Infiniti of Raleigh told me about local servicing, loaner cars, and drop and pick up service for a fee.
I have a great local Volvo dealer 5 miles from home that is famous for their service and honesty. That is a big issue as well.
Lexusguy, I will be very interested as well to hear what you have to say. I thought you were an Infiniti driver, not a Volvo driver. That surprises me and gives me more to think about.
FYI. I currently drive a 2001 Chevy LT Z71 pickup extended cab w/ leather. Love the seats, headroom and power, hate the gas mileage and safety for the kids.
I have owned a 1999 A4, 2003 325i, 2000 Toyota Land Cruiser, 1998 Volvo Cross Country, and 1989 Toyota Land Crusier, 1991 Acura Legend, and 1994 318i (worst car ever by the way).
This debate really interests me as well Lexusguy. Keep your thoughts coming.
I'll keep posted as the days progress with my thoughts and new info.
The S60 and the XC are by far the best Volvos we have owned. For us the back seat room on the S60 is a non issue (I'm 5-7, wife is 5-3). The ride, handling and steering of the S60 is really great.
I am in the car market and plan to purchase something by the end of this week. Currently I drive a Mustang but really feel like I have out grown it. My wife drives a Expedition...she won't let me drive it. So now I have the opportunity to get what I want (or can afford). I don't want a BMW or Mecedes. Since my brother works for Ford, I get a discount on Ford, Volov, Lincoln, etc. I read everything about the S60R. It seems to be a very nice car. I want something that has good performance but is confortable and quite. What are your opinions about the S60R.
Hi dhc - if you use the "Search This Discussion" feature on the page bar for "S60R" you'll find lots of posts talking about it. That should be helpful to you.
I have a Landcruiser and a Volvo S60. The S60 delivers all that a BMW or Mercedes delivers with more safety - without the higher insurance premiums of the others! Folks like Ross Perot and Bill Gates drive Volvos - some of us dont have anything to "prove"!
aeg, The XC90 is a great car, I just ultimately dont feel that Volvo's traditional car engines are a good match, hence the Yamaha sourced V8. The problem I have that, as with every other V8 in the class, is mileage in the teens. Thats ok in my XKR mind you, but my wife is disgusted by guzzlers like that. Her next car is going to be an RX400h, which will absolutely take the market by storm. Lexus has pre-orders for over 11,000 cars, and upped their original first year production from an estimated 30,000 to over 60,000.
Could you point me to crash test results on the G35? A few people have mentioned safety issues about the car, but I havent seen anything myself. How do you feel about the Acura TL, by the way?
Billy, tough decisions huh? Ultimately the G and S60 are both great cars, and I really dont think either would be a bad choice. I'm actually not an Infiniti or a Volvo driver. My wife and I currently have three cars, her '01 RX, my '01 LS, and my '00 Jaguar XKR. I used to drive Benzs and BMWs, but very bad experiences with both has pretty much permanently turned me off to Germany. (This is in the days well before iDrive or COMAND, so since things have gotten WORSE, not better, theres just no way I'd go back). I'm rather suprised you got a second 3 series, after that 318i.
The Jag (this is my third Jag drop top) has been ok, better than the previous two, but its not great. I'm waiting to see 1. how the new XK in '06 is, and 2. wether Lexus can make an SC that doesnt put me to sleep.
Since I dumped Germany for Japan in the early 90s, I've been driving an LS every day basically because none of the three Japanese luxury brands and anything that was much fun, and the LS was the most comfortable. However, thats FINALLY starting to change now, and I am thinking of moving back into something small and sporty. Infiniti's new G and M, and the next Lexus IS and GS are going to be my top four I think. I'm not entirely sure what size I want yet.
The current S60 is just a little too small for me, but I've had some experience with the car as I've recommended a few '01s and '02s to friends and gone on test drives with them. The seats are awesome, as is the HU-803 stereo (now 850 I think). If you do get an S60, DEFINITELY op for the premium stereo.
dhc, for the money, the S60R is quite a car. As volvomax said, dont make eye contact with M3 or C55 drivers, but you could dust pretty much everything else on the road...with the stick. With the automatic its not so great.
grantchstr, didnt Gates get in trouble for driving a Porsche 959?
thanks again for all your input. Here is the information you requested about the G35. www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/head_restraints/head_infiniti.h- - tm. When you view this sight you will see how dismal the rating were for rear end crashes. This is of concern to me as I consider cars other than volvo's for the first time in years.
Well. That is unexpected. Looks to me like the only midsize luxury sedan that did well overall was the Volvo.
It did mention that these are low impact tests that rarely result in major injury, but still.
Great. The tide now turns to the S60. I was all but decided on a 2005 G35 w/ premium in Twilight Blue with Stone Interior. Just depended on what the VPP pricing came in at.
Lexusguy- You keep mentioning the TL. I have read a lot about it and all reviews point to that car or the G for best bang for your buck at that price point, but I just don't get any emotion out of that car for some reason. The Volvo S60 2.5t has basically the same torque (236lbs) at a lower RPM (1,500 vs. 4,000). That would make the Volvo a much better car to driver in all around city driving which is primarily what I do. Am I correct? The interiors are equivalent, in my opinion, with the exception of the size of the back seat, which I don't care that much about. I don't like the exterior of the TL either. Looks just like the TSX. Another example of brand imaging I guess. My only reason for not flat out deciding on the Volvo is the lack of power as compared to the G. So, I eliminated the TL because in torque terms it had the same as the Volvo.
Am I missing something? Lexusguy, I have come to respect your opinion, so I would like to hear what you have to say regarding the comparison of the two cars, the S60 2.5t and the TL. I know that every review and publication picks the TL hands down over the S60 but I want to know why other than strict HP rankings and fit and finish.
IMHO, I think the Volvo fit and finish is as good and the seats are better. I don't care that much about BMW handling or top end speed.
I care about comfort, around town power, exterior and interior looks, good sound system, safety, dealer satisfaction, and track record.
I look forward to all comments since I have taken a stab at the hallowed TL.
First, keep in mind that the G35 and S60 are both EPA rated as compact cars - the TL is a mid-size. That equates to more interior space.
Acura has hit a home run with the TL by implementing it's traditional value proposition, both today in terms of price and features and in the future in terms of resale. The TL really competes with the 5 series and E class sedans. Basically 9/10ths the features/prestige at 7/10ths the price.
Now here in Boston, S60's and Volvos in general are pretty pedestrian vehicles. You don't get noticed in a Volvo. They are well put together and with the included maintenance and pricing incentives are a great value. One will probably cost you more to own over the long haul than the TL. But it is a different driving experience than the TL - it is very Euro IMHO.
That being said, it's your money. Buy and drive what you like. I like the TL but really like the Volvo even more.
the TL sounds like an appealing car. However, I live on top of a very steep hill and a steeper driveway. An all wheel drive vehicle makes the most sense.I remember reading in consumer reports that an all wheel drive vehicle has better traction without snow tires than a front wheel drive vehicle with snow tires.I wish acura added all wheel drive to the tl since they now have it on the RL.
Living in Quebec I know a thing or two about driving on snow. I guess the person who wrote such a thing in Consumer report live in Florida!
I'd take a FWD car with good winter tires over a AWD with 4 seasons any day in winter! The AWD may help you accelerate from a stop a little better but the 4 seasons won't help you one bit stopping or turning on snow or ice.
My XC90 was useless on snow with the 4 season tires. Yes, it accelerated fine; but it coudn't stop or turn!
My wife's FWD S60 with 4 Gislaved is much better in the snow, sleet, ice than the XC on 4 season's. Now that I,ve got proper winter tires on the XC as well, it handle's just fine.
I really wouldnt eliminate the G because of those tests if you really like the car. Most government crash test ratings are not particularly related to real world (especially roll-over, which is basically pulled out of "guesstimates" and hot air.) The LS did only ok in that test, but I can tell you there's not another car I'd rather be in if I had to get into a serious accident.
I was really suggesting the TL more to aeg than to you. What the TL has going for it is that its loaded at $33K, thats really about it. If it was a $36-38K car, nobody would really be interested. It gets all of the typical Honda things right, price, fit and finish, handling, and all of the typical Honda things wrong, long braking distances, quality but uninspired interior design, and a peaky engine. The TL is of course a fantastic value which is why its selling like hotcakes, but if you took that away, it would be just an also ran.
The G and S60 cant quite match match the Acura in terms of interior fit and finish (but they both are a lot closer than last year) but I think both of their interiors are more interesting. Acura interiors just remind me of high quality Japanese electronics, like a Denon or Pioneer Elite, with immaculate build quality and where styling is a total afterthought.
Personally I like the '05 S60 better than the TL, but I like the '05 G35x better than the S60. To me its the only car good enough to knock the 330i off its pedestal, and on merit, not on a cheap price tag (TL).
I have come to realize over the years that Consumer Reports is not the consumer bible. I understand that awd is only useful from a dead stop. It may seem silly with the dozen or more substantial snowfalls we get here that I must buy an awd vehicle.
A question for you often debated in these threads. Which Xc90 model do you have? Are you disappointed with the acceleration.I test drove the 2.5 disappointed with acceleration while merging onto a hwy/pky and passing as well.It seems to lack a certain zest.
Thats not really true. AWD can be very useful in many bad weather situations, including rain, snow, and ice. FWD is better than RWD because most cars have more weight over their front wheels, but AWD is better than FWD when neither front wheel has any traction. Just look at what AWD did for rally racing.
Well I was pretty well decided on the 2005 S60 2.5t in Silver/Taupe with premium and climate. Called around to a few dealers. The MSRP on that car is $34,490. I have a quote at $31,880. I said fine. I don't know if that is great or not. Probably a few hundred more dollars to get out of it. Anyway I asked for a lease quote for 36 months, 12,000 miles a year, with as little down as possible based on the $31,880 cap cost. He came back with a number of $543 a month. Can you believe that? That is ridiculous. I ran those figures on the Volvo lease calculator and they came back at $397 a month.
I don't know where the different calculations came from but I have asked him to provided them to me.
I could buy it for that price. Shoot you could lease a 5 series or a host of other cars for that price.
Is there anyway that could be right. That is paying out $19,548 over the 36 month period. I am no lease expert by any means, but if you assume a 57% residual value after 36 months based on the MSRP that leaves a residual value of $19,659. The difference between the residual and the cap cost is $12,220. That is a big gap between $12,220 and $19,548. That is way to much for interest.
I must say that does sound outrageous. Where in the country do you live. I have had contact with a dealer via other posts that seems to have a good reputation for his intergrity. BTW is the 2.5 a front wheel or all wheel drive car. Any idea if the premium sound is worth the additional cost. I am going to test drive a 60 today and thought I would see if the premium sound system is superior.
First of all - do not be emotional, this is just a business transaction, so run it like a business
Find out what is a residual value (in %%) and what is a money factor (equivalent to the interest for a lease). Dealer should disclose this numbers, or you can get them from the actual money lender.
Find out all the available incentives and discounts. Edmunds usually has them all. Use them to calculate a bottom line for the initial cost.
Now, run your numbers for the monthly payments, that will cover the difference between the bottom line price and a residual value, which is based on a FULL price of the car. Do not forget all applicable taxes. The taxes could be calculated based on a FULL price in many states.
Decide on a fair profit for the dealer on a top of this calculations.
Use these numbers as a counter offer, and negotiate up from it, but never negotiate down from the original offer.
You will surprise the sales person, take advantage of it, let him argue YOUR figures, do not discuss his figures, as they are irrelevant. Keep saying - Here is my calculations, tell me what is wrong with them? and most likely, you will be pleasantly surprised with the results.
I've done quite a few times, it works like a charm.
All selling technics are devised for the ignorant and susceptive buyers. But it is not enough just to be tough, you need to be versatile with the numbers.
Absolutely get the premium stereo! The basic version is quite weak, with only a few speakers and a single disc player. The premium stereo adds an in-dash 6-disc changer, a MUCH heftier amplifier, and speakers made by Dynaudio, the famous Danish audiophile speaker company. Its an awesome system, second only to Lexus\Mark Levinson audio, and it costs about half of what the ML package does on a Lexus. The Volvo system easily bests the G35's Bose system and the Acura's Panasonic\ELS system with both hands tied.
Lexusguy, where did you get a $350 figure on a G35x? Sign me up wherever you did. Seriously. If you can tell me where and how you came to that number all of this would be over.
Apparently the first lease quote of $543 came from an outside lease party because they can take advantage of the $1,500 factory money. The Volvo special lease program does not use the factory money in a lease. If you rerun the lease through Volvo with a $1,500 higher cap cost of $33,300 you are looking at $452/mo, 36 month lease, 12k a year with $2,000 down. The 2k down is Security Deposit, 1st Month Payment and Taxes.
That monthly payment is still high in my opinion in relation to the market. You can lease a 5 series for $461 month with $3k down. You can lease an S4 for $499 month with $3,500 down.
Good advice Lev. I need to find out the residual and the money factor. Are those items negotiable?
Usually not, but there should be a variety of programs with the different residual values and money factors that can be applicable based on other criteria, like mileage allowance (12 vs 15K), your credit rating, etc. that can work for your advantage.
Another approach that I just recalled using in the past - find a "catcher" advertisement, i.e. from time to time dealers try to move some items from their inventory and give really good deals on those cars. Use that "catcher" as the base for the negotiations. These "catchers" could be stripped down, without required options, etc.
What you need to do, is to add the portion of the monthly payment to cover the cost of the difference in the options between the "catcher" and any car from the inventory that you want.
Once again, two major points - surprise the sales person and let him argue on "your turf".
Just as example - I helped my sister to lease Nissan Altima 3-4 years ago. We have found an advertisement from one dealer for the lease "One only" payments of $149. The offer for the inventory car was $319 for the similar lease.
The "one only" was manual and did not have AC, so we plugged in ~$700 for AC and ~$800 for automatic. It can be covered with additional $50 per month for the 36 month lease.
We could not get $199, but were able to negotiate $219 per month. - $3600 net savings from the original offer, without much hassles. Huge, consider $20K price tag.
Comments
Also, is there any reason to get a 2005 over a 2004? engine changes? exterior changes? design changes, etc.?
I am doing the obvious TL, G35, S60, 525, 9-5 comparison and it looks like the S60 could be the current leader. The 525 is too expensive and underpowered. The TL is nice but there is not a local dealer. The G35 there is no local dealer and the one contact I had with the dealer was terrible. The Saab just bores me. The S60 seems to be a nice compromise.
Any thoughts? I know this has been discussed before but not recently. I am more concerned with what actual prices paid right now are?
Any help would be great.
Thanks.
Anyone with any recent purchase experience of an S60R - are there decent deals out there on '05 models or are they a premium vehicle without much wiggle room in the price due to limited availability?
http://www.volvocars.us/NR/rdonlyres/2FF351BA-7FB3-44F6-BFB8-B39F- CD20900E/0/S60_int_604x314_09.jpg
Keep in mind that a well optioned S60R is a lot closer to a BMW 5 in terms of pricing than the Acura or Infiniti. Also, if you get the R, you're gonna want the manual. The automatic and S60R make a very poor combo, it basically robs the engine of all of its low end power, and make it slower (at least from 0-60) than either Infiniti or Acura. The 2.5T seems to handle the automatic best.
The 9-5 stinks, I would avoid that one. Its an old, 4-banger powered rebadged Opel. The Acura provides maximum bang for the buck, and the best NAV system. Sportiness is similar to S60, though not as much as S60 R or G35. The brakes are unfortunately weak, that is unless you get the A-spec\Brembo package with the stick, but the stick on the Acura leads to bad torque steer. Too much grunt for FWD.
An '05 G35x with everything but NAV prices around $36K, as of a few weeks ago. Handling is awesome, engine is awesome, and that exhaust..mmmmm. The Infiniti is worth taking a long look at, bad dealer aside. It also has a lot more rear seat space than the S60.. if thats important.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Hitting potholes or speed bumps too hard.
I've bent a couple of wheels on my R from potholes.
I broke a strut on an Eclipse by going over a speed bump too fast.
Struts are generally considered a wear item so I don't think Lemon law will apply.
You are right about the s60r. It is more than the TL by probably 5-6k. It is closer to the G35, but it is still probably 6-7k off of a 525 with any decent option set up.
Anyway, you make a good point. Maybe I should consider the T5. That still seems to have plenty of horspower at 257hp. I would probably lease this vehicle.
Other than the engine, are there any big differences between the S60R and the S60 T5, both manual transmissions?
If you could pick the TL, G35 or S60 T5, which would you pick?
If it were me shopping for a stick, I would eliminate the TL, as it is just a better car with the automatic. With the stick it torque-steers like a Saab. G35 6MT or S60T5 would be a tough one, as they both have their strengths and weaknesses. If AWD AND a Manual is important to you, that ends it right there, as the G35 with the stick is only available RWD. In terms of interior space, the G35 is much bigger. Me personally, I like the G35x, but that would mean an automatic. So if you live in a colder climate area, an S60 T5 AWD with the stick may fit the bill perfectly.
Between the T5 and the R, take the R.
The T5's torque steer alone disqualifies it.
Plus, you really aren't talking about alot of difference in price, only $2-3 thousand.
I did wonder about the torque steer on the T5 and on the R. That is why I noticed the R was AWD, but they don't really make a big deal about it or mention AWD in the titling of the car.
The torque steer in the T5 must be pretty bad to get that many people in agreement.
Are you sure the G35x doesn't come in a stick?
Completely different system.
Next I went to a different Infiniti dealer in Raleigh today since I am down here visiting for xmas. They have probably 50 g35's 2004 and 2005's. I imagine you can get a sweet deal on a 2004 but unfortunately I prefer the 2005's due to interior upgrades and power upgrades. I didn't have a chance to drive it but I did sit in it and it appears as comfy as the Volvo, probably not as comfy but close. This dealer was much better than the Richmond Infiniti salesman I dealt with.
The G is back in the game. I still prefer the interior of the Volvo, the engine/drivetrain of the G, and the looks are about tied in my book. The price is tied at about $32k with the options I picked. Just premium and auto for both.
Is this crazy, who compares a 2.5t and a G35? It is as if I can't make up my mind right? between luxury and sport?
Lexusguy am I wrong to compare these?
I think the Volvo looks better inside and out and has better safety features.
The G is faster and has a better price/value relationship.
I find European cars to be more thoroughly engineered. The Japanese cut too many corners for my taste.
The 2.5T has more than plenty of pull in the 0-40 range or so, thanks to lots torque and the biggest displacement 5 you can get in the S60. However, its just no match for 3.5L of Nissan VQ. The VQ V-6 has won award after award, and its pretty obvious when you lay into the throttle in the G35. Also, the G35 isnt just faster, but its a real BMW 330i chasing sports sedan. The S60 2.5T is not. It drives very nicely, but its not the same.
Then there are the AWD systems. The Volvo's is a 95\5 front bias Haldex unit, where the rears will only come on when its absolutely necessary. The G's on the other hand, is about as perfect as you can get for a sports sedan, in that its simply not there unless you want it to be. Under normal dry conditions, it drives just like the RWD car, and a quick stab of the throttle mid turn will cause some delightful oversteer, just like the regular G35. The S60 simply cant do that. The front wheels come on when needed, or you can hit the "snow" button and lock in a 50\50 Quattro style split. I'll put it this way. The G35 was good enough to be invited back for a second 10 best run. The S60 has never made the list.
The G35 is very safe, and they are the only Japanese car maker to use active head restraints. Of course now that the NHTSA has made that a requirement, it wont mean as much in the future. The G35 also handles better, has a tighter turning circle, and stops shorter than the S60, so I could argue you have a better chance of avoiding an accident all together in a G35.
As for the "thoroughly engineered" comment, I would have to argue with that. The Germans are known for engineering, and look at where Audi and Mercedes are on the JD charts. Lexus cars win the JD ratings every year they are eligable, and I think engineering has a lot to do with that. Infiniti has been chasing Lexus for the past several years for the top reliability spot. Volvo is ranked average at best.
If it were me personally, billykrebs, I'd take an '05 G35x over an S60 2.5T AWD without a second thought. My own test drive of an '04 2.5T was enjoyable, but I didnt have a problem handing the keys back over. When I took out an '05 G35x a few weeks ago, I didnt want to give it back.
Engineering is making sure the brake rotors don't overheat and catch fire during spirited driving(happened to a bunch of Infiniti's at a track event). Engineering is making sure the paint job is thick enough to stand up to a dozen years of sun and rain.
Engineering is ergonomics,and integrated safety systems.
The japanese cars are more reliable because they are as a rule less complex. Europeans take more chances in integrating new technologies than the Japanese do.
Personally, I think it will have to come down to what I want this car to be to me. Do I want Luxury first with a big dose of sport or do I want Sport with a nice dose of luxury?
Lexusguy, there is a difference between the 05 and 04 S60 on the inside. It is quite a bit plusher and upscale. Similar to the upgrades of the G35 for 2005.
I really don't like the interior of the 04 G35. I do like the interior of the '05. In my opinion, there is a big difference between the 2. The 04 looks like an Altima on the inside. It looks cheap to me.
The 05 s60 interior is quite nice. It is my favorite by quite a ways.
I went to look at both again today when the dealers were closed and took down VIN numbers for pricing quotes. By the way, I have access to VPP pricing, what exactly is that % over invoice? do either of you know? I don't have that with the Volvo.
I am going Monday morning to drive the G for the first time. That will tell a lot I think. The 05 Graphite/Taupe leather interior w/ premium is calling me for around $32k as far as I can tell.
I am going to sleep on it and not buy on Monday, but I think from all my reviews that the G is leading the charge by a hair. My dad (58) prefers the G, my brother (28) prefers the Volvo, and I (31), as I said, am leaning to the 05 G. If it was between the 05 S60 and the 04 G35 I would pick the S60. The 05 G35 is really throwing me for a loop.
It seems to me like the Volvo driver seat is bigger than the G but the G backseat is bigger than the Volvo's. Am I right?
Also, do either of you know about the leg pain experienced in the 04 G's and if that was corrected in the 05s? That could be a dealbreaker.
Thanks guys. You have been very helpful in thinking this decision through.
William
As for the seats, I didnt drive the cars in close enough succession to really remember how much legroom I had in front. The G35s seats are quite nice, but the Volvo's are magical. There's just no substitute for a Volvo seat. As for the back seats, the G is listed at 33.6" and 33.3" for the Volvo, but it sure feels a lot different than that. I didnt have much of a problem sitting in back in the G35, but the Volvo is REALLY tight back there. The G also has an extra foot and a half or so in cu.ft of trunk space. One other significant difference between the cars, as I mentioned before, is an extra 4 feet the Volvo needs for its turning circle. Parking will definitely be easier in the G35.
One other thing, the G should retain its value better. The S60 holds value much better than the S80, which drops like a brick, but the G35 has very very strong residual value.
I am extremely interested in any future discussion about these cars and do find it helpful in making my own decision. Curiously to hear what billykrebs decides to do.
I really do like the '05 G35 and all research I have done shows that Infiniti fixed all the issues from the 03 and 04 models, namely the interior, brakes, transmission sudden acceleration, and exterior mods. I see the engine upgrade as just a bonus that makes it even more difficult.
On the flip side, I have a wife and 2 young daughters so safety is paramount to me. That is why I am really interested in the Volvo along with the unbelievable seats. I have a bad lower back and seat comfort and head room is critically important to me. I am only 6'1" but I prefer an upright seating position to reduce the stress on my low back along with lumbar support. I am only 31 so it is not like I am an old bag but I have had a rough athletic life.
Today I am back to 50/50 on the 2005 G35 and the 2005 S60 2.5t. Another issue will be when I call the Infiniti dealer 65 miles away in Richmond when I get back home tomorrow and see if the Service Mgr. validates what Infiniti of Raleigh told me about local servicing, loaner cars, and drop and pick up service for a fee.
I have a great local Volvo dealer 5 miles from home that is famous for their service and honesty. That is a big issue as well.
Lexusguy, I will be very interested as well to hear what you have to say. I thought you were an Infiniti driver, not a Volvo driver. That surprises me and gives me more to think about.
FYI. I currently drive a 2001 Chevy LT Z71 pickup extended cab w/ leather. Love the seats, headroom and power, hate the gas mileage and safety for the kids.
I have owned a 1999 A4, 2003 325i, 2000 Toyota Land Cruiser, 1998 Volvo Cross Country, and 1989 Toyota Land Crusier, 1991 Acura Legend, and 1994 318i (worst car ever by the way).
This debate really interests me as well Lexusguy. Keep your thoughts coming.
I'll keep posted as the days progress with my thoughts and new info.
The S60 and the XC are by far the best Volvos we have owned. For us the back seat room on the S60 is a non issue (I'm 5-7, wife is 5-3). The ride, handling and steering of the S60 is really great.
I am in the car market and plan to purchase something by the end of this week. Currently I drive a Mustang but really feel like I have out grown it. My wife drives a Expedition...she won't let me drive it. So now I have the opportunity to get what I want (or can afford). I don't want a BMW or Mecedes. Since my brother works for Ford, I get a discount on Ford, Volov, Lincoln, etc. I read everything about the S60R. It seems to be a very nice car. I want something that has good performance but is confortable and quite. What are your opinions about the S60R.
Thanks,
D-
Its a really fun car, esp w/ the 6 speed.
Not quite as fast as an M3, but alot less expensive.
Fabulous seats, great AWD system.
Only wish it had more power.
Could you point me to crash test results on the G35? A few people have mentioned safety issues about the car, but I havent seen anything myself. How do you feel about the Acura TL, by the way?
Billy, tough decisions huh? Ultimately the G and S60 are both great cars, and I really dont think either would be a bad choice. I'm actually not an Infiniti or a Volvo driver. My wife and I currently have three cars, her '01 RX, my '01 LS, and my '00 Jaguar XKR. I used to drive Benzs and BMWs, but very bad experiences with both has pretty much permanently turned me off to Germany. (This is in the days well before iDrive or COMAND, so since things have gotten WORSE, not better, theres just no way I'd go back). I'm rather suprised you got a second 3 series, after that 318i.
The Jag (this is my third Jag drop top) has been ok, better than the previous two, but its not great. I'm waiting to see 1. how the new XK in '06 is, and 2. wether Lexus can make an SC that doesnt put me to sleep.
Since I dumped Germany for Japan in the early 90s, I've been driving an LS every day basically because none of the three Japanese luxury brands and anything that was much fun, and the LS was the most comfortable. However, thats FINALLY starting to change now, and I am thinking of moving back into something small and sporty. Infiniti's new G and M, and the next Lexus IS and GS are going to be my top four I think. I'm not entirely sure what size I want yet.
The current S60 is just a little too small for me, but I've had some experience with the car as I've recommended a few '01s and '02s to friends and gone on test drives with them. The seats are awesome, as is the HU-803 stereo (now 850 I think). If you do get an S60, DEFINITELY op for the premium stereo.
dhc, for the money, the S60R is quite a car. As volvomax said, dont make eye contact with M3 or C55 drivers, but you could dust pretty much everything else on the road...with the stick. With the automatic its not so great.
grantchstr, didnt Gates get in trouble for driving a Porsche 959?
As for his everyday ride, one article says a Lexus.
It did mention that these are low impact tests that rarely result in major injury, but still.
Great. The tide now turns to the S60. I was all but decided on a 2005 G35 w/ premium in Twilight Blue with Stone Interior. Just depended on what the VPP pricing came in at.
Lexusguy- You keep mentioning the TL. I have read a lot about it and all reviews point to that car or the G for best bang for your buck at that price point, but I just don't get any emotion out of that car for some reason. The Volvo S60 2.5t has basically the same torque (236lbs) at a lower RPM (1,500 vs. 4,000). That would make the Volvo a much better car to driver in all around city driving which is primarily what I do. Am I correct? The interiors are equivalent, in my opinion, with the exception of the size of the back seat, which I don't care that much about. I don't like the exterior of the TL either. Looks just like the TSX. Another example of brand imaging I guess. My only reason for not flat out deciding on the Volvo is the lack of power as compared to the G. So, I eliminated the TL because in torque terms it had the same as the Volvo.
Am I missing something? Lexusguy, I have come to respect your opinion, so I would like to hear what you have to say regarding the comparison of the two cars, the S60 2.5t and the TL. I know that every review and publication picks the TL hands down over the S60 but I want to know why other than strict HP rankings and fit and finish.
IMHO, I think the Volvo fit and finish is as good and the seats are better. I don't care that much about BMW handling or top end speed.
I care about comfort, around town power, exterior and interior looks, good sound system, safety, dealer satisfaction, and track record.
I look forward to all comments since I have taken a stab at the hallowed TL.
Acura has hit a home run with the TL by implementing it's traditional value proposition, both today in terms of price and features and in the future in terms of resale. The TL really competes with the 5 series and E class sedans. Basically 9/10ths the features/prestige at 7/10ths the price.
Now here in Boston, S60's and Volvos in general are pretty pedestrian vehicles. You don't get noticed in a Volvo. They are well put together and with the included maintenance and pricing incentives are a great value. One will probably cost you more to own over the long haul than the TL. But it is a different driving experience than the TL - it is very Euro IMHO.
That being said, it's your money. Buy and drive what you like. I like the TL but really like the Volvo even more.
Good Luck.
I'd take a FWD car with good winter tires over a AWD with 4 seasons any day in winter! The AWD may help you accelerate from a stop a little better but the 4 seasons won't help you one bit stopping or turning on snow or ice.
My XC90 was useless on snow with the 4 season tires. Yes, it accelerated fine; but it coudn't stop or turn!
My wife's FWD S60 with 4 Gislaved is much better in the snow, sleet, ice than the XC on 4 season's. Now that I,ve got proper winter tires on the XC as well, it handle's just fine.
I was really suggesting the TL more to aeg than to you. What the TL has going for it is that its loaded at $33K, thats really about it. If it was a $36-38K car, nobody would really be interested. It gets all of the typical Honda things right, price, fit and finish, handling, and all of the typical Honda things wrong, long braking distances, quality but uninspired interior design, and a peaky engine. The TL is of course a fantastic value which is why its selling like hotcakes, but if you took that away, it would be just an also ran.
The G and S60 cant quite match match the Acura in terms of interior fit and finish (but they both are a lot closer than last year) but I think both of their interiors are more interesting. Acura interiors just remind me of high quality Japanese electronics, like a Denon or Pioneer Elite, with immaculate build quality and where styling is a total afterthought.
Personally I like the '05 S60 better than the TL, but I like the '05 G35x better than the S60. To me its the only car good enough to knock the 330i off its pedestal, and on merit, not on a cheap price tag (TL).
A question for you often debated in these threads. Which Xc90 model do you have? Are you disappointed with the acceleration.I test drove the 2.5 disappointed with acceleration while merging onto a hwy/pky and passing as well.It seems to lack a certain zest.
I don't know where the different calculations came from but I have asked him to provided them to me.
I could buy it for that price. Shoot you could lease a 5 series or a host of other cars for that price.
Is there anyway that could be right. That is paying out $19,548 over the 36 month period. I am no lease expert by any means, but if you assume a 57% residual value after 36 months based on the MSRP that leaves a residual value of $19,659. The difference between the residual and the cap cost is $12,220. That is a big gap between $12,220 and $19,548. That is way to much for interest.
Anybody here with any advice?
First of all - do not be emotional, this is just a business transaction, so run it like a business
Find out what is a residual value (in %%) and what is a money factor (equivalent to the interest for a lease). Dealer should disclose this numbers, or you can get them from the actual money lender.
Find out all the available incentives and discounts. Edmunds usually has them all. Use them to calculate a bottom line for the initial cost.
Now, run your numbers for the monthly payments, that will cover the difference between the bottom line price and a residual value, which is based on a FULL price of the car. Do not forget all applicable taxes. The taxes could be calculated based on a FULL price in many states.
Decide on a fair profit for the dealer on a top of this calculations.
Use these numbers as a counter offer, and negotiate up from it, but never negotiate down from the original offer.
You will surprise the sales person, take advantage of it, let him argue YOUR figures, do not discuss his figures, as they are irrelevant. Keep saying - Here is my calculations, tell me what is wrong with them? and most likely, you will be pleasantly surprised with the results.
I've done quite a few times, it works like a charm.
All selling technics are devised for the ignorant and susceptive buyers. But it is not enough just to be tough, you need to be versatile with the numbers.
Apparently the first lease quote of $543 came from an outside lease party because they can take advantage of the $1,500 factory money. The Volvo special lease program does not use the factory money in a lease. If you rerun the lease through Volvo with a $1,500 higher cap cost of $33,300 you are looking at $452/mo, 36 month lease, 12k a year with $2,000 down. The 2k down is Security Deposit, 1st Month Payment and Taxes.
That monthly payment is still high in my opinion in relation to the market. You can lease a 5 series for $461 month with $3k down. You can lease an S4 for $499 month with $3,500 down.
Good advice Lev. I need to find out the residual and the money factor. Are those items negotiable?
Another approach that I just recalled using in the past - find a "catcher" advertisement, i.e. from time to time dealers try to move some items from their inventory and give really good deals on those cars. Use that "catcher" as the base for the negotiations. These "catchers" could be stripped down, without required options, etc.
What you need to do, is to add the portion of the monthly payment to cover the cost of the difference in the options between the "catcher" and any car from the inventory that you want.
Once again, two major points - surprise the sales person and let him argue on "your turf".
Just as example - I helped my sister to lease Nissan Altima 3-4 years ago. We have found an advertisement from one dealer for the lease "One only" payments of $149. The offer for the inventory car was $319 for the similar lease.
The "one only" was manual and did not have AC, so we plugged in ~$700 for AC and ~$800 for automatic. It can be covered with additional $50 per month for the 36 month lease.
We could not get $199, but were able to negotiate $219 per month. - $3600 net savings from the original offer, without much hassles. Huge, consider $20K price tag.