Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

flightnurse

qbrozen said:

flightnurse said:

Mark, when it comes to cars, for me, my all time favorite care was my Alfa GT-V6, it was a poor mans Ferrari.. Talk about soul!!

Nice! I'm a bit of an Alfa guy and that is one I've always admired, but I was too late to the party and finding a nice one is damned near impossible. I've run across a couple in the past decade, but never at a time I could do anything about it.

Good GT=V6's are out there just got to pay for them, just like the NSX's...

flightnurse

markcincinnati said:

flightnurse said:

Mark, when it comes to cars, for me, my all time favorite care was my Alfa GT-V6, it was a poor mans Ferrari.. Talk about soul!!

Rick and I were at the BMW dealer this week, we are starting the European Delivery (ED) of his 3289 GT, while we were there a gentlemen was there taking a redeliver of his M6 Grand Coupe which he did the ED, it was great listening to his stories. Mark, you are right you don't hear that at the Acura or Infiniti Dealers.

BTW, Rick's 328 GT will be a 2016 and we are shooting for a July 16th delivery at the Welt.

Have you ever been to Munich? If not, I can offer up a couple of restaurant recommendations that are equal to or better than restaurants in New York, Paris, London, Prague and Warsaw. If you're going to stay in country for more than a few days, I can also suggest a couple of relatively close destinations that are breathtakingly beautiful.

If you want to spend some time in your new BMW on the autobahn while heading toward one of the best little towns on the planet, I urge you to drive about 45-60 minutes south of Munich to Garmisch-Partenkirchen, spend the night in the magnificent Hotel Reindl Partenkirchner Hof -- make absolutely sure you make dinner reservations at the hotel's restaurant, or risk being turned away -- the meal at this restaurant is worth planning, scheming and dreaming for.

The next day you can take the ski-lift up (and in July the view will be spectacular) where the 1936 winter Olympics were held. Then you can take another even more breathtaking cable car ride up the Zugspitze where you can have lunch and walk from Germany to Austria as the border cuts through the mountain. If you have time -- and I would urge you to make time -- you can drive your new BMW to Füssen and visit Neuschwanstein Castle.

After that day you can either drive back to Garmisch or motor on into Innsbruck, Austria or back to Munich.

If you want some restaurant recommendations in Munich, let me know.

Have fun -- that's another thing Germans know how to do so well.

Mark I'll take you up on that offer and the Neuschwanstein Castle is mandatory when during a BMW ED..

benjaminh

The 2016 Acura ILX has a new engine and transmission, as well as several other improvements. Previously it wasn't very competitive at the entry level, but now I think it is. The most direct competitor is the 2015 Audi A3 1.8. Both are good cars, but here are few comparison points....

2016 ILX base
$27,900 msrp
0-60: 6.2 (according to C & D)
hp 201
trunk: 12.3
8 speed DSG
29 mpg comb

2015 Audi A3 1.8
$29,900 msrp
0-60: 6.5 (C & D)
hp 170
trunk 10
6 speed DSG
27 mpg

Each one has advantages and disadvantages when it comes to standard equipment. The A3 has standard leather, standard XM in a better standard stereo, and split folding rear seats, none of which comes standard on the ILX.

But the ILX has standard the following things that I think are lacking on the base A3: moonroof, heated seats, LED headlights, rearview camera, smart entry/putshbutton start, USB port, 2 years longer power train warranty, Siri Eyes Free, etc.

Obviously somewhat difficult to compare, but I'd say that the ILX standard things are "worth" substantially more to me than the standards on the A3.

If you add a moonroof, pushbutton start, heated seats, back up camera, etc. to the A3 then the price seems to inflate to c. $36k or so. But the Acura model that would compete with that would be the ILX premium which is c. $30k msrp. That is a significant price difference.

The Audi has a lot more prestige than the Acura, but the ILX is likely to be more reliable and have a lower cost of ownership than the A3.

Yes, the ILX is based on the Civic, but then the A3 is based on the Golf, and so I don't see much of a difference there.

Both are good cars, but I do think that Acura is back in the game with the 2016 ILX.

ab348

benjaminh said:

Both are good cars, but I do think that Acura is back in the game with the 2016 ILX.

Well, time will tell. The outgoing model consistently lost every comparison test to the Buick Verano, much less the A3. Once the usual car magazine introductory hype dies down it will be a better time to assess.

markcincinnati

Few A3's (at least in our climate in SW Ohio) will not be quattros. Also, I would think there won't be that much cross shopping of these two cars -- and I admit there is a good chance I am wrong.

There is something special about German cars -- eloquently described elsewhere by both the pro-writers and us amateurs -- that makes me think most "Audi" shoppers will first cross shop the other Germans, then perhaps another European brand, then, maybe, a Japanese brand.

I asked the Audi dealer who (the brand) they compete with. The answers depended on the car, of course, but the A3 and ILX were never mentioned in the same sentence. Now, granted, this is a data point; and this is perhaps indicative only of Cincinnati shopper's habits. The names (brands) brought up included BMW (doh!), Mercedes and Porsche -- the Macan vs the Q5/SQ5 for instance.

Acura's today inhabit that unenviable position where Audi used to live: Acuras are Hondas when spoken of; Audis used to be Volkswagens as recently as 20 years ago. It wasn't until Audi moved farther and farther away from being a VW that knows somebody, that they were able to break into the Premium class. Acuras, so I thought, had made some pretty good inroads into no longer being "fancy" Hondas -- remember the RLX from the not too distant past? Now, they've slipped -- and for all I know the slippage is deliberate -- and gotten closer to their Honda roots. Simultaneously, Honda has kept moving forward and upward at a pace that Acura has apparently not been willing or able to keep pace with.

Don't get me wrong, I can't pinpoint something with respect to my 2012 TL SH-AWD Advance that I can blast other than its ugly beak. Yet, just the reaction to the car itself was underwhelming. No one ever seemed to have any curiosity about my TL. The day I drove my new S4 into the office, however, folks were all over the thing, asking questions and showering it with praise.

The point is folks here in Cincinnati at least will fawn over a BMW, Mercedes, Porsche or Audi and will hardly give an Acura or Infiniti the time of day. The Lexus IS 350 F sport, however, will attract car buffs and elicit questions -- as will a Cadillac ATS.

Maybe it's just that Cincinnati is a German town -- sister city to Munich, after all -- but at this point in time, Acura's just can't get no respect. I think were I somehow in a Bizarro world shopping for an ILX, I'd probably run, not walk, to the nearest VW dealer and look at a new VW CC R-line instead.

benjaminh

markcincinnati: You make some good points. But for those who don't need the prestige of the German makes, or to have their cars talked about, Acura might be a choice again now. Maybe a small part of the lack of buzz for Acuras in your area is that they are actually made right in Ohio lol? Once the Acura NSX is launched later this year, might it inject a small amount of buzz into the brand?

markcincinnati

Of that I am certain.

graphicguy

I don't know that I'd go so far as to say there's something special about German cars. I think after you own cars for awhile, and you've owned lots of brands/models, you see the differences in materials, engineering, build to be differentm, but not necessaily better, from one marque to the next.

Granted, BMW and Mercedes seem to do things differently than say Acura, or Infiniti (and certainly different than Cadillac). For example, try using the shifter in the BMW 5 Series or the column dhifter in most Mercedes. You kind of go...."who thoguht that was a good idea?".

Audis better in that regard. But still, there seems to be a level of complexity in the German makers that isn't really necessary. Never owned a Mercedes, but in my Audi and BMWs, I attribute that to why maintenance and repairs are so high compared to an ATS, or CTS, or TL, etc. Does it make a BMW, Audi or Mercedes better? I've yet to see any evidence of that.

All that said, I do understand the appeal of BMW. I liked the ones I had, quite a bit. The dealerships are top notch. Their cars, while moving away from what I want in an ELLPS, are still top dogs in the category.

Lots of competition in the space, though. Plenty for everyone to choose from. And, they're all good entries in the space.

roadburner

Enthusiasts used to buy BMWs because they were great cars. Now many new buyers select a BMWs so that they appear to be an enthusiast- like the clown I met at my dealer's F30 intro; he informed me that "I like automatics- I want to get in the car and not have to do anything."
(And I'm not slamming automatics- I'm slamming that pathetic reason for owning one)

I'm seeing more and more friends in the CCA(many of whom are long-time members) moving to 911s, Caymans, and CTS-Vs or V Sports- not to mention Boss 302s or Z06s.

markcincinnati

While I do love a debate even a non-mean-spirited argument, I perhaps should perhaps attempt to clarify at least some of my previous comments in response to: ". . . for those who don't need the prestige of the German makes, or to have their cars talked about . . . ."

I am certain there are indeed car buyers who buy a brand for "prestige." There are perhaps business people who believe they must wear Armani suits, Prada shoes and sport Rolex watches on their wrists, and drive "appropriate to their station" autos for at least the reason that their clientele expect it of them. We may have become more shallow as a group of people overall (those of us in much of the world, not just the US); that is a debate for another place and time. The thing is, the folks [executives, C-level folks and VPs on up the chain] who hire corporate lawyers, CPAs, brokers, investment bankers, architects, interior designers, consultants and so forth would probably have different perceptions of the professional they were about to engage or the senior manager they were about to hire based on some of the candidates accoutrements.

Perception is reality so the saying goes.

You may be correct that a top o' the line KIA or Equus is virtually every bit as competent and luxurious as an S class, 7 series or A8L, but the market perception isn't there yet.

The point is not that someone may buy the car for the prestige -- although they may -- the point is that some force ("may the force be with you") has imbued your Rolex watch with certain "characteristics" that set it apart from my beautiful, equally functional and competent-as-a-timepiece Tissot.

Given a choice, better yet, we've [all] learned that given a choice of being gifted with a new Impala LTZ or a somewhat like-sized BMW 5 series, we "should" pick the BMW. In the same vein, given a choice of an Acura RLX or a Mercedes E class, well, the Mercedes will be chosen over and over.

These assignments of prestige were earned somehow (weren't they?)-- is it possible it is because the E class or BMW or whatever has earned a reputation for inherent goodness and/or desirability and value that the RLX just can't compete with?

I don't know why an individual thinks they "need or don't need" prestige in their attire, car they drive, club they belong to or college they attend. I don't even care, really. What I am on about is how the thing -- that objet d'art -- perhaps got to be that way.

BMW's for example, may -- today -- no longer be the performance machines worshiped by some from an historical perspective. Perhaps BMW and the other [snooty?] Germans [and the people who buy them?] are simply resting on their laurels. Perhaps they are the naked emperors now. I wouldn't bet against them quite yet, however.

Perhaps Acura, Infiniti and Lexus (soon to be displaced by KIA, don't you know) will be dubbed the new Premium players by the cognoscenti of cars at Automobile, Car & Driver, Motor Trend, Road & Track and yes, even Consumer Reports. Look at the new CR magazine (best and worst car issue) and see where the Audi A6 comes in, just for the fun of it.

Most of us don't need our cars to be talked about. None of us wants our cars to be talked about as a negative reflection of us, however. But, we certainly don't mind if our cars (and the other stuff I mentioned above) paints us in a light that is positive. The real estate sales person who takes you around looking at houses in her new Q7 or Escalade may -- for good reason, who knows? -- make you feel like a winner compared to the sales person who drives you around in his obviously not new Chrysler 300. The lawyer who -- well you get the picture -- gives you confidence is probably the one who appears by some societal/cultural measure to be successful.

People need what they perceive they need -- and part of that perception of a given product comes from something the product has done to earn a certain reputation (prestige, some measure of prestige or lack of prestige altogether).

Cars are where they are due to many factors -- Acuras, not to pick on them, do not "suggest" the same thing as BMW's, for instance. You may or may not call that prestige, performance, price or even presence. Today, it is very, very likely that given a choice of a new Acura or BMW, "most people" will choose BMW.

The names Acura, Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Cadillac, Lexus, Toyota, etc, etc, etc could have been used as substitutes in some of the preceding. It is not my intention to savage Acura or inordinately praise BMWs. Personally I am an Audi fan of the highest order. Between my wife and myself, we have owned American, German and Japanese cars since 1969 (mostly German, full disclosure). My experience with Acrua was, overall, positive -- and my TL was, in my estimation, Acura's somewhat successful imitation (bargain) Audi S4. I have no axe to grind with Acura, that is.

However, therefore, notwithstanding: I do notice that I am accorded certain societal, er "perks" when I wear my Breitling watch vs my Swiss Army and when I wear a certain designer sport coat vs Jos A Banks and when I arrive in an Audi vs an Acura or Infiniti. It's also better to be sporting a Mont Blanc pen instead of a Cross. It's better to be using an iPad than an Acer, And, it is better to order Ornellaia than E. & J. Gallo.

It just seems that we have arrived at a point in time where the Germans -- for whatever reason -- rule. Cadillac is on the rise, Acura is on the wane and both Infiniti and Lexus need to further rationalize their offerings, although Lexus seems to be doing just fine, thank you very much.

Just remember, good is the enemy of great.

Acura makes good cars.

More's the pity.

markcincinnati

roadburner said:

Enthusiasts used to buy BMWs because they were great cars. Now many new buyers select a BMWs so that they appear to be an enthusiast- like the clown I met at my dealer's F30 intro; he informed me that "I like automatics- I want to get in the car and not have to do anything."
(And I'm not slamming automatics- I'm slamming that pathetic reason for owning one)

I'm seeing more and more friends in the CCA(many of whom are long-time members) moving to 911s, Caymans, and CTS-Vs or V Sports- not to mention Boss 302s or Z06s.

I'm not sure folks buy BMW's so they can appear to be an enthusiast -- I'm pretty certain a lot of BMW shoppers (and ultimately buyers) aren't really all that aware, even, of BMW's reputation in that regard.

I would suggest that for some BMW's have the reputation as being "the best" -- so someone lusts for a BMW for a few years and then when that first "big jump" in comp or first "big hit" in an investment banking transaction that they were part of gives them that high five figure or six figure bonus comes along, well they go for "the best" which they think is a BMW.

My suspicion is that someone buys (or leases) a Porsche because it will make them appear to be an enthusiast, or, perhaps even more likely, they really ARE an enthusiast.

Or, and I hope this isn't really the case, someone buys that RS7 or 911 to suggest a certain size attribute of a body part. Or, the car is acquired simply to demonstrate the size of your check-book balance.

I read an article about people who seek speeding tickets so they can brag -- obtusely -- about their income, as in "I can afford that [speeding ticket]." That's inane -- maybe even insane.

Yesterday we were out and about in snowy Cincinnati -- only 4-wheel drive vehicles seemed to be venturing out -- I saw an A8L and my comment was, "I don't care how much money we have, how big the bonus is, etc, don't ever get an A8 for me." Sure the car suggests something about the owner's income -- but were I to think about spending inordinate sums of money to haul my skinny (or fat, as the case may be) butt around (mostly with no one else in the car with me), my choice would be an S6 -- pretty much the ultimate sleeper car if you axe me. Probably only a very few would even know of its somewhat lofty price tag, as a matter of fact. But that's just me. My friend buys A8's and never has any passengers in them -- I am so tempted to inquire if he has more money than sense. I just keep my mouth shut.

The folks I [superficially] socialize with at either the BMW Store or the Audi Connection here in River City, actually seem to be very much into Audis and BMWs and cars in general. They know, sometimes, as much as the sales personnel, about all of the cars "in the BMW or Audi family."

My wife and I attended a 2-day driving school in Spartanburg SC with a group of folks from all over the US and most of them owned both BMWs and non-BMWs and were very much car aficionados of the highest order.

I'm thinking folks buy these cars because the cars have earned the reputations as being the best -- some folks may think that means the best performing, some may think most luxurious. I've never met anyone who bought one to "look like they were a 'brand-name-here' enthusiast" though.

But, I could be wrong.

roadburner

markcincinnati said:

My wife and I attended a 2-day driving school in Spartanburg SC with a group of folks from all over the US and most of them owned both BMWs and non-BMWs and were very much car aficionados of the highest order.

I'm thinking folks buy these cars because the cars have earned the reputations as being the best -- some folks may think that means the best performing, some may think most luxurious. I've never met anyone who bought one to "look like they were a 'brand-name-here' enthusiast" though.

But, I could be wrong.

It's painfully obvious that you'd encounter enthusiasts at a driving event. You aren't going to meet the dweebs who talk about the "powerful V6" in their "Beamer" at the Performance Center or at a CCA HPDE.

benjaminh

I have to admit that Audis and BMWs are beautiful cars, at least to me. They call out to me in a way few other cars do. MB, however, has lost me with their, to me, "mean" looking styling of late. But looking at the reviews of the local Audi dealer just now I came across this:

"Currently have my Audi A4 in for repairs. It has 57,000 miles on it, and I will be walking out with a $5000+ repair bill. This is on top of $1500+ I spent on repairs in the last 7 months...."

Yikes! Acura stirs my emotions too, and part of that is the desire for reliability, durability, and low cost of ownership. If I want drama in my life I'll watch television or a movie. I don't need my car to give it to me lol!

markcincinnati

roadburner: You are, of course, correct -- for the most part those who attend driving events are enthusiasts and often well informed ones at that.

Earlier I had perhaps inartfully attempted to say that I noted the folks (customers) at BMW dealers did behave enthusiastically about BMWs and often cars in general and that I could not say the same was true at an Acura dealer (for instance). Even those "dweebs" who may incorrectly talk (gush perhaps?) about their BMW's V6 engines do continue somewhat to make the point -- the "tone and tenor" of the shoppers and buyers of BMWs and Audis is -- even when factually incorrect -- very much upbeat, excited and passionate.

The only thing I have ever seen, however, that even approaches the dweeby-ness you suggest is when someone at the Audi store asks me if my S4 (with the V6 T badge on it) has noticeable turbo-lag or some remark indicating they are unaware that Audis V6s are super, not turbo charged. I correct them, of course and they then ask me why Audi puts the "T" on both the super and turbo charged cars.

I give them the party line that is somewhat difficult to say with a straight face, we both shrug and I then tell them my S4 is both incredibly quick off the line and very fast thanks to the instantaneous response only a supercharged (or, granted, a naturally aspirated) engine can offer.

Even the dweebs are excited at the Audi and BMW store is the point -- the folks [shoppers] at Infiniti of Cincinnati and Columbia Acura, well, they're more concerned with things like "can I run it on regular?"

Maybe I need to seek out a better class of dweebs.

benjaminh

markcincinnati: Your thoughts on the different cultures surrounding each make seem to me to be perceptive, funny, and mostly on target. Acura does have its own subculture of nerds and devotees, I think, but they tend to be more subdued and, as you suggest, more "practical." Acura is in the midst of a renaissance, I believe, as their products are now more performance-oriented and more innovative. Its seems doubtful that they'll ever catch up to the enthusiasm and popularity of the top makes, but I think there's a chance they could get closer. Just like for every other make, there are fan sites for Acura too, and some of the people there seem quite knowledgeable:

http://acurazine.com/

Even though Leonard Nimoy famously participated in an advertisement for Audi along with Zachary Quinto, which I imagine everyone here knows, in my mind Acura is the more "logical and rational" luxury brand. Perhaps for some Acura lacks passion at times, but as a long time Star Trek fan I somehow imagine that Mr. Spock might approve of some of their cars, as well as of their legendary reliability and longevity. And for passionate design I think there are few supercars more exciting at the moment than the new Acura NSX:

http://www.acura.com/FutureVehiclesNSX.aspx

markcincinnati

It amazes me how quickly KIA (and specifically the Genesis "brand" on the other side of the house) has (or is it have?) started to make the case that they, someday, may give the current Premium Class members a rude awakening. As you might imagine, being an Audi loudmouth for so many years, I do participate in my share of (apparently) Audi sponsored surveys.

I was surprised to see the number of questions some of these surveys contain that clearly indicate the Germans (or maybe it is just Audi, I dunno) are concerned that some Korean mfgrs are "breathing down their necks."

Now, I said that last bit for emphasis, but there has been at least a seed planted in the German mfgrs minds that says, "The Koreans are Coming, The Koreans are Coming" (and of course I immediately add -- mentally -- "Cover yourself with butter and carry lemons just in case. . .!")

But seriously, I saw some TV show on Velocity (I think) where a new Genesis (V8) was compared to a Mercedes E-Class and a Volvo S60. Now, at the time, before the video rolled, I thought, "Whose dumbass idea was it to compare these three; they're not even close, no one would ever cross shop them?!"

Turns out I was wrong -- the Genesis, although not exactly a great handling car, has had its suspension tuned by Lotus (sorta) and the thing had a very powerful and smooooooth V8 hooked up to an 8-speed transmission (plus it had all of the latest and greatest electronic safety aids and toys the Germans keep loading their cars with.) Considering that this 2nd gen Genesis was in its first model year, I had to marvel at how far they've come and how fast they've done it.

I did think, too, Lexus was literally a trim-piece brand (and where are they now? First Place? or at least close to it) -- there weren't even any Lexi in Japan, they were all just called Toyotas. Now, look at Lexus -- a legitimate force to be reckoned with even if generally speaking some (OK most, OK, all) enthusiasts never have taken to them or seen them as anything more than sofas on wheels. Few, even the haters, laugh at Lexus now. And they actually brought that spunky little dude, the IS 350 F Sport to market and pantsed a BMW 335 (look it up, if you don't believe me.)

It would be hard to argue that both the top of the line Genesis, Equus and KIA cars aren't making "don't look back, those headlights gaining on you are Korean" type sounds.

So why isn't it possible for Acura to, likewise, kick butt and -- eventually -- regain some of its premium-ness? Of course, I don't KNOW, know, but I think, it is because they have found a niche where they have been and are successful, they make reliable and durable cars, their cars are in some pretty cool Marvel movies and the halo car has sex appeal. Have a cigar (and by the way, which one's Pink?)

By the way, I do think the NSX will be a great ambassador for the Acura brand, I just am not sure I see someone rushing in and buying an RLX based on the fact that the NSX wears an Acura badge. The gap between the NSX and the TLX or even RLX is unlikely to be narrowed by an oooober expensive sports car -- if you axe me.

Mean time, Genesis and KIA cars are quietly gaining ground and buzzing around the Premium Club members -- and you know what? Pretty soon one of them will sneak its way in and, then, well, there goes the neighborhood.

Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!

What next? Chrysler resurrects the Imperial?

We're headed for a disaster of biblical proportions.

Oh gawd.

graphicguy

My track days are over. But, I still like a good handling car. I'm not nearly as critical between FWD/RWD/AWD as the current enthusiasts are. There was a time it made a difference (like running at mid-Ohio years ago). Just not so much any more.

These suspensions have become quite sophisticated. I do like the trick torque sensing rears of the Caddy, Audi, Acura. They truly allow rotation around any corner that really defies description.

I also like the current trend of tubo/supercharging smaller motors to get more power out of less displacement. I had a Saab turbo in the '80s. That one was "hit the gas....wait for it....wait for it....BAM....steering wheel jerked out of my hand if I wan't holding on, and in the weeds you could go. Fun.....for about a week.

cdnpinhead

Business is good in Mark land.

Years passed with little or no input. Now we have quite a bit. The economy is definitely improving in certain sectors.

roadburner

I have to say that I really did like Acuras up until the "Beak" design theme emerged- the RSX in particular.

As for the Koreans usurping the German throne, I'd think that won't be a possibility for some time. Having said that, I recall a column I wrote several years ago where I noted that the Optima Turbo was a very nice car- and while it definitely was not a sports sedan, neither was an F10 528i.

I also draw a distinction between "enthusiasts" and those who are merely "enthusiastic."
The enthusiastic owner is like the person who gets behind a basketball team once they go deep in the NCAA Tournament- but is unable to name any of the starting five, never mind what position they play. There automotive counterparts are the owners with V6 Beamers; they think a port installed LSD is an intravenous hallucinogen and absolutely adore the electronic oil level sensor- that way they don't have to remember how to open the hood..
In contrast, an enthusiast at the very least knows the engine configuration of his/her car as well as which wheels are driven- and hopefully understands a few rudimentary handling terms.

Sad to say, I have noticed that several more "mundane" marques are attracting an increasing number of true enthusiasts- if not rabid gearheads. BMW seems intent on casting a larger net while using "bait" that is becoming more and more bland.

markcincinnati

roadburner: Amen.

graphicguy

RB....I look at the Korean manufacturers more as a curiosity than anything else. I would like to get some butt time in a new Genesis, given that they've supposed to have fixed the "jittery" suspension issues of the previous gen.

There seems to be this rush by BMW, Infiniti (with the Q), Mercedes to move closer to the middle, or to cast a bigger net, as you aptly put it. Audi has stayed pretty true to the luxury sports sedan mantra. And, a brand like Cadillac seems intent on taking care of the space that was vacated. In all frankness, I probably would have gone back to BMW after all the foibles with my S4. But, they transitioned into the F3x by then, and the drive to me was much less engaging with them. Plus, to get what I wanted, the prices really have sky rocketed on them to approx a $7K-$8K delta between my 335ix coupe and the just released 435ix equipped about the same way. Thanks but no thanks.

I really have become smitten with the ride/handling engineering of the ATS/CTS. The Mag Ride Control is the real deal. Never thought I'd say soemthing the size of my CTS as "flingable", but it is. It's just one of those cars that I look forward to driving every day....even love the looks of it....the quality of it...the build of it.

Still, I would like to get some seat time in the new Mustang GT or the Challenger with the Scat Pack. Not sure when, or even if I'd buy either. But can't say never. Never is a long, long time. It would be a 2nd (3rd?) car if I did.

markcincinnati

Recently one (or more) of the "big" auto magazines (I think it was C&D) tested an old vs a new BMW. I assume the genesis of such a test was the ever growing brouhaha -- ostensibly from the faithful -- claiming the newer BMW's have lost some of their BMW-ness as BMW goes on the "soich for more money!"

It seems, if memory serves, that the test reports demonstrated that the new BMW could better the old one in every significant (measurable) performance number.

Once again, since I am not, at this instant, in possession of the test report article, I could be mistaken. What I think I recall, however, is that despite the cries that BMW has forsaken the true believers, the numbers say otherwise.

I had been a die-hard manual transmission guy. Our Audis -- with the exception of my brand new 1997 A8 -- had always been manuals. My maxed out allroad (2003) had to be special ordered -- not that I probably wouldn't have anyway -- since the dealer simply did not stock stick shifts even back then. I couldn't believe Audi would simply no longer offer its cars with sticks (for the most part). The 2001 or 2002 A6 2.7T could be had with a stick but the same model with a 4.2 V8 was only offered with an automatic.

My wife's 2005 X3 had to be ordered, too, since there were virtually no X3's on the dealer's lot so equipped. As I recall we couldn't even test drive a stick BMW period.

When I got my 2005 A6, I knew I had probably enjoyed my last stick (the 2003 allroad 2.7T.)

Going on the hunt, I found that BMW did offer at least some stick shifts but there was little chance of finding one unless it was special ordered.

I now have a 7-speed DSG in my '14 S4. I, for the first time since 2003, don't miss the stick anymore.

Most people -- that I know, excluding my wife -- don't even know how to drive a stick, so I don't see much value in complaining about that, and, besides, the DSG is so much better at shifting than I ever was and the shifts don't feel like they're robbing power from the engine.

What we have today, if you believe Car & Driver (which I usually do), are better performing cars that have their performance characteristics available when you want them but invisible (for the most part) when you don't.

Yes, even Consumer Reports notes that an Audi [A6] is able to be sporty -- which I assume is somewhat of a statement that other brands (that they list) are not sporty.

I'm buying that today's fill in the blank (Audi, BMW, Mercedes & Porsche) automobiles are "the best representations of sport sedans and CUV's ever on the market." I'm, therefore, rejecting the notion that the old ones were better performers than the new ones. The fact that the brands have become more accessible to folks who don't think like I thought -- up until 2005 -- simply means the brands have the power to sustain themselves in the marketplace.

Even if I really thought a 10 or 12 year old M3 was somehow better than a new one, I am pleased that BMW has "cast a wider net," for I fear had they not, they would be going or already have gone the way of the dodo.

The disdain so many have for sentimentality never ceases to amaze me -- my sentimental favorite car ever is my 1995 Audi S6 in pearl teal with a brilliant white leather interior. God I loved that car -- still have fond memories for it. It was, despite its being my favorite, no where near the car my 2014 S4 is -- the older S6 was, in perhaps every measurable way -- "inferior" to the new (or almost new) S4. My current S4 is the best car I have ever had, by a wide margin. I assume it would, in every measurable way, be crowned winna and champeen were it compared to the old S6 or even a last gen S4 (the one with the V8).

These cars that we talk about here and have strong opinions about are the best they have ever been (in every significant and measurable way). The fact that BMW or Audi now attracts folks who don't know that there isn't a V6 under the hood of their BMW is sad (for me at least); but, I would argue that the ignorant owner is just as desirable (as a customer) to BMW as the one who knows there is a turbo-charged inline-6 under the hood. In the end, car companies must put the soich for more money ahead of the soich for informed, appreciative and passionate customers. The way they go about selling more cars, however, is to build better cars that can be appreciated both by the true and pure disciples as well as the bourgeoisie.

Although I don't think the Koreans are TODAY too much of a threat to the world-order, I don't think we should dismiss them out of hand. They are making very rapid advances -- pretty soon they may find entry into the Premium Class (and by pretty soon I think we should be very watchful of the evolution of their products for the next 5 or so years.) I remember the first Toyotas that were imported (back in the 60's) -- made in Japan was, then, not much of a threat. It didn't take long until they were nibbling at US made market share, then they just started taking ever bigger bites until names like Toyota, Honda and Datsun were forces to be reckoned with.

I got into a new Genesis sedan -- it wasn't a Mercedes -- but honestly, I do think it was a very interesting attempt to convince "you" that it was worth a second look. Whenever the 3rd gen comes out, I would look for some serious suspension evolution which could go a long way toward making us take them more seriously.

roadburner

Are you referring to this article?
It concludes:
the most significant change from the E90 to the F30 results from the switch to electric power-steering assist, which diminishes feel. Body roll in the two cars is identical, but the use of rear-suspension understeer instead of  larger tires in back may be why the new 328i feels less agile turning into corners. All of  it adds up to a softer, tamer 3-series that’s more about luxury than fun.

markcincinnati

RB - No, The one I recall compared a new M3 to an old M3 (old being a relative term).

I do have a question - let's just say that the consensus of expert opinions favors the old over the new; what are consumers to do (assuming they want the car brand and model that has "slipped" during the transition from old to new)? If a 2009 BMW (or Mercedes, Porsche, etc) is superior to a 2015, many (perhaps most) consumers would still opt for the 2015 for reasons of reliability and durability (and factory warranty).

And, in the tests that I recall, the real performance differences between the old and the new are often only most noticeable above 8/10ths -- a place where few ever drive their daily drivers. So, even those who long for an E vs an F BMW or an Audi B7 vs a B8, etc, can't really go out and get a "new" E or B7; and, probably most of them want a 2015 not a 2008, 2009 or 2010.

I never had a V8 S4 -- and I'm told some were PO'd at Audi for changing to a super-charged V6. But I have nothing to compare my V6 T to in that regard, and hunting for a used S4 V8 is simply something I wouldn't even be interested in doing.

So the question is/stands: What can or will "you" (or the consumer) do? Seek out the "better" older version? Go to another brand? Take public transportation?

And, if newer models are actually better than the older versions and you just don't like the new ones, what will you do, boycott the company or fix and repair the old one until parts can no longer be found? Is moving to Cuba an option?

nyccarguy

I think a big part of what BMW has lost is that it has cast such a "large net." The current crop of 3 series cars just doesn't do it for me the way its predecessor did. 3 years ago I made a financially dumb move and traded in my 2010 Acura TSX for a leftover 2011 BMW 328xi. I drove the car once and figured out a way to make it work by leasing the 328xi for 2 1/2 years. Fast forward to today. If I still had my Acura (yes I'm a card carrying member of Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous) and said to myself just as I did 3 years ago: "You know what, the incentives on this 320xi or 328xd are really strong, I've always wanted a 3er, so let me take a test drive..." I would have left the dealership with a cold feeling. 175 hp 4cyl engine is ok for me in my $25K Legacy, but 140 hp turbo 4 cyl wouldn't cut the mustard in a $40K BMW 320xi.

benjaminh

Hard for even me to believe, but on the strength of SUVs Acura slightly outsold Cadillac and Audi for Feb:

Acura: 12,992 up 12.5%
Cadillac: 11,739 down 12.6%
Audi: 11,445 up 5.3%

Perhaps re: Acura it's time to cue up Monty Python: "I'm not dead yet!"

markcincinnati

nyccarguy said:

I think a big part of what BMW has lost is that it has cast such a "large net." The current crop of 3 series cars just doesn't do it for me the way its predecessor did. 3 years ago I made a financially dumb move and traded in my 2010 Acura TSX for a leftover 2011 BMW 328xi. I drove the car once and figured out a way to make it work by leasing the 328xi for 2 1/2 years. Fast forward to today. If I still had my Acura (yes I'm a card carrying member of Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous) and said to myself just as I did 3 years ago: "You know what, the incentives on this 320xi or 328xd are really strong, I've always wanted a 3er, so let me take a test drive..." I would have left the dealership with a cold feeling. 175 hp 4cyl engine is ok for me in my $25K Legacy, but 140 hp turbo 4 cyl wouldn't cut the mustard in a $40K BMW 320xi.

I would assume you were not the target buyer of the car you bought/leased.

I know the Audi brand better so hopefully this is a reasonable parallel:

The new Audi A3 -- even the S3 -- is not at all attractive to me. The new Q3, likewise, doesn't do it for either my wife or me. I'd bet even the eventual RS Q3 will not be attractive to us. Maybe it is the size of the A3, maybe it is that it seems a class lower in terms of the materials used throughout the interior. I would, therefore, assume if I were to acquire an A3, even the Prestige quattro version with the most potent turbo-4, I would be working hard to figure out how to ditch it at the first opportunity.

Come to think of it, it probably isn't the size of the A3 or Q3, it is just that it seems too much like it is an Audi-light vehicle (and I'm not speaking of it's curb weight.) The CLA Mercedes and the BMW 1 series, likewise just don't do it for me. My wife was loaned a 1 series (and it had the turbo i-6) BMW -- I drove it, very powerful, but it seemed, somehow, "cheaper" in the materials it was made out of. The Q3, which we had for a day and a half earlier this year, didn't have the cheapness issue I noted in the A3, but it was way, way underpowered -- it felt like a Tiguan (doh! it is a fancy Tiguan, after all).

All of our Audis have felt at least adequately powered, so the current Q3 seems like it was pulled out of the oven before it was done. Maybe I'll change that opinion once the regular Audi 2.0T engine is in place.

The $50,000 S3 was twitchy, like a go cart is twitchy, it was noisy at speed on interstate 275, where I drive every day in my quiet S4. The vast expanse of black plastic on the dash looked like something out of the rental fleet at Budget, not something that the sales person has to say with a straight face: "we can sell this one for $47,900!"

So, you leased a left over BMW that was probably meant for a younger, earlier in their earnings arc, customer. You paid too little, got too little and were underwhelmed.

On the other end of the scale, you may have been equally unhappy with an Audi A8 -- or BMW 7 series. These cars are developed with input from design, engineering, marketing, production/manufacturing and of course, finance. When deciding what to do, I would imagine those in charge decide "there is a target market for an X5, an X3 and now an X1." There's also a market, a narrow market I would imagine, for the X6.

Those $70,$80 and $90,000+ 4-door German coupes from Audi and Mercedes are not marketed, I would assume, to a 23-year old with a freshly minted MBA from Ohio State or a 25-year old who just completed his/her JD from the University of Cincinnati College of Law.

Is the wider net a good thing to do? I probably would have said no a couple or three years ago, but maybe now, the market is such that these premium makers want to get them (the customers) early (aka "young") and make certain there are upmarket models "within the family" to aspire to.

My sales rep at the Audi Connection told me his wife wanted a new Audi Q3 -- he had to carefully market and sell his wife first AGAINST the Q3 and then move her thinking to the Q5 or Q7, stopping along the way at the A4 based allroad. Why? Well, the Q3 was "not enough car" for her as a Fortune 500 executive with three children aged from 12 to 15, a big dog (her husband) and a border collie. The Q3 would have been a fine choice about 14 years ago.

And this guy sells cars for a living -- no longer are car sales people "order takers" (if they ever were).

Hopefully you get my drift -- your expectations and your "situation" were not a good match for the leftover BMW you leased -- and it was a disservice to you to not shepherd you through the buying process. I think you weren't given what you needed to make an informed decision.

benjaminh

Luxury market for Feb:

1. BMW 25,201

2. MB 23,616

3. Lexus 22,995

4. Acura 12,992

5. Cadillac 11,739

6. Infiniti 11,659

7. Audi 11,455

8. Lincoln 6164

nyccarguy

@markcincinnati‌

Sorry for the confusion in my post. I wanted to write a little more, but got called away from my desk while eating lunch (happens A LOT since my name's on the door). While the time I spent with the E90 328xi was brief, it was nothing short of amazing.

I had wanted a 3 series ever since I drove a friend's 1995 E36 328is 5MT through the streets of Buffalo late one night into early one morning. The car was just perfect. It fit me like a glove. At the time I didn't have too much stick shift seat time, but by the end of the night I was rotating the car car around corners.

I liked my Acura TSX that I inherited from my wife when we bought a Pilot to accommodate our upcoming 3rd child (she's 3 now), but didn't LOVE it. I saw an ad for leftover 2011 328xi BMWs, crunched some numbers, test drove the car, & fell in love. An inflated residual, $2000 in trunk money, 2 additional $500 payment credits, plus a $500 BMWCCA rebate gave me enough ammo to convince my wife that I want it & it makes sense (and cents).

My experience with the current crop of F30 3ers came when I brought my brilliantly balanced 328xi in for service. I drove a 328xi, a 320xi, & a 320xd. Nice cars. Very smooth riding. I'll even go as far as saying the 328 was MUCH faster than my inline 6's 230 horsepower. The chassis seemed to be stiffer. As an enthusiast, I just had little idea of what was going on. The car felt very disconnected.

Since BMW has moved into making their cars softer, they lost the edge they had over competitors like Lexus.

The scene at your BMW dealership on Saturday AMs is how things should be. Waxing poetically about their respective BMW. The truth is that inflated residuals, free maintenance, & low lease payments are what fuels the BMW brand.

roadburner

markcincinnati said:

So the question is/stands: What can or will "you" (or the consumer) do? Seek out the "better" older version? Go to another brand? Take public transportation?

And, if newer models are actually better than the older versions and you just don't like the new ones, what will you do, boycott the company or fix and repair the old one until parts can no longer be found? Is moving to Cuba an option?

As to your first question, I will either seek out an older version or go to another brand; I like the M235i but I balk at paying around $3000 to get a true mechanical limited slip in a car that already costs north of $40,000- especially when such an "exotic" technology is either optional or standard on the GTI, Miata, not to mention every V8 ponycar. The vanilla F10 and F30 leave me cold, regardless of their horsepower, and my opinion is shared by much of the US enthusiast press(remember when Automobile and Car and Driver were constantly accused of being biased towards BMWs? When is the last time a non-M model won a comparison test?). Now you are absolutely right; the wearers don't care, and Munich apparently no longer does either.
Fortunately BMW M is still cranking out decent cars. I think the new M3/4 is a return to form; I liked the E9x V8 but it drove like the true successor to my bitterly missed E24 M6- more a fast GT than a true sports car like the E46 M3. Ditto for the M5; the E60 V10 iteration was just a mess- the new car feels like it has a little E39 DNA spliced in.
I have no problem maintaining my 2 older BMWs- one thing BMW still does right is provide for older models; thanks to BMW Classic I can get virtually any part I need for my 1975 and 1995 BMWs at my dealer's parts counter. If it isn't in stock I rarely have to wait more than 2-3 days. And when I bring my 1995 Club Sport in for service I still get a loaner.

tlong

benjaminh said:

I have to admit that Audis and BMWs are beautiful cars, at least to me. They call out to me in a way few other cars do. MB, however, has lost me with their, to me, "mean" looking styling of late. But looking at the reviews of the local Audi dealer just now I came across this:

"Currently have my Audi A4 in for repairs. It has 57,000 miles on it, and I will be walking out with a $5000+ repair bill. This is on top of $1500+ I spent on repairs in the last 7 months...."

Yikes! Acura stirs my emotions too, and part of that is the desire for reliability, durability, and low cost of ownership. If I want drama in my life I'll watch television or a movie. I don't need my car to give it to me lol!

I had a '98 Audi A4 and loved that car - V6 with a 5 speed manual. It was without a doubt the best driving car I have ever owned - smooth, sharp, and shifted like butter. But I got rid of it earlier than any other car I have ever owned - at 88K miles. It was already nickel and diming me with semi-expensive repairs - primarily a cooling system issue that the dealer couldn't seem to resolve but at $750-$1000 per visit while they kept replacing parts - thermostat, fan clutch, etc. So I finally and grudgingly sold it and bought my current ride, an '05 Acura TL (now at 150K miles). The Acura has given me almost no trouble and it's a great car (and one of the good looking TLs rather than the later disasters), but it is still big and heavy and sloppy next to my A4. I really still do miss that Audi. But I really do like the reliability of my Acura.

flightnurse

nyccarguy said:

@markcincinnati‌



My experience with the current crop of F30 3ers came when I brought my brilliantly balanced 328xi in for service. I drove a 328xi, a 320xi, & a 320xd. Nice cars. Very smooth riding. I'll even go as far as saying the 328 was MUCH faster than my inline 6's 230 horsepower. The chassis seemed to be stiffer. As an enthusiast, I just had little idea of what was going on. The car felt very disconnected.

.

Dude, you got to drive a 320xd? The only one imported into the US...

flightnurse

I'm gone for 2 days and this forum lights up...

First I laugh at people who criticize cars and brand after a short drive. Second, I pity the fool (in my best Mr. T voice) for criticizing cars without really driving longer then 1,2 or 8 days.

Lets look at the Geneses, Rick's Geneses has 65K miles on it, has only been in the shop for routine service. So basically flawless so far. So some of you say that people buy BMW's, MB's and Audi's because they want to prove something.. The Geneses is a very nice E class, for 2/3 the cost of a E class. I don't think anyone would say that the E class is a true sport sedan, and I wouldn't say the Geneses is one too, but after owning one for 3 yrs, I can say with fact that the Geneses is just as good as a MB E class or a BMW 528i (non line car.) Base price for those car's are 50K, a fully loaded Geneses can he had slight under 50K. The ""jittery" suspension of the first Gen Geneses isn't a major issue, it's not a sport sedan and again it was never marketed as one. But if you were looking for a e class car, and price gave you a nose bleed, the Geneses was a great alternative.

Again on the comments about F3x, it's great people write reviews on these cars with limited real seat time, this doesn't make them "experts." Having 25K miles on mine, I have to say, this car has exceeded my expectation. This is why I'm looking at the F33 4 series Grand Coupe, I wish BMW would import the 435d, this would blend power and efficiency to a whole new level. But I'll take the 435i, however, when I'm ready to order my car it will be the 440i. Are the new F3x cars softer then the E series, yes, the "true" enthusiast can not keep BMW and Porsche in business so they had to do something to get a larger pool of people. I mean, for the people who buy the CPO cars, how does this keep the manufactures open? They don't, they keep the dealers open, it's the people who purchase new cars are the one who keep the manufactures open. I had always said, the E39 5 series was the perfect size car, and the F30 is slightly smaller then the E39. So BMW has been working on the EPS (elec power steering) to get the feel back, this would shut up some people. I just got back from a trip, slightly over 400 miles, I averaged 36 mpg, no one complained about cramp rear seats, and the "numb" steering wasn't an issue in which I couldn't control the car going up and down the mountain roads of southern AZ.

This is why Rick is getting a F34 328i GT, the car still has a very German ride to it, much more then his Geneses, the rear seats have more room then his Geneses and or a 5 series. Not everybody want a ride that is so stiff that there is a risk of losing their fillings. Since all GT's are xDrive, we are getting the Dynamic Handling Package this allows to have greater control in the x Drive cars when either the Sportline or M Sport lines are ordered (Rick is getting a Sportline GT.)

benjaminh

"....So I finally and grudgingly sold it and bought my current ride, an '05 Acura TL (now at 150K miles). The Acura has given me almost no trouble and it's a great car (and one of the good looking TLs rather than the later disasters), but it is still big and heavy and sloppy next to my A4. I really still do miss that Audi. But I really do like the reliability of my Acura."


10 years and 150k miles of almost trouble-free driving is quite impressive. Have you considered a new ILX or TLX as a successor?

nyccarguy

flightnurse said:

nyccarguy said:

@markcincinnati‌



My experience with the current crop of F30 3ers came when I brought my brilliantly balanced 328xi in for service. I drove a 328xi, a 320xi, & a 320xd. Nice cars. Very smooth riding. I'll even go as far as saying the 328 was MUCH faster than my inline 6's 230 horsepower. The chassis seemed to be stiffer. As an enthusiast, I just had little idea of what was going on. The car felt very disconnected.

.

Dude, you got to drive a 320xd? The only one imported into the US...

Sorry. What is it, a 328xd? My brain was semi fried from last night's 2 hour & 23 minute commute home (32 miles).

graphicguy

tlong....for a long time, it looked like the two of us were carrying the Acura banner. It's up to you now.

Actually, I may end up with another TLX sometime, but probably for my wife. Aside from the fact that I do believe they offer great value in the ELLPS space, they just don't break. And, they don't cost an arm and a leg to maintain. I do like the looks of the new TLX, but I also liked the previous version, too.

Driving my wife's Accord, and driving (albeit breifly) a new TLX, I can tell the differences immediately between the two. Most of it is underneath, though. SH AWD and some obvious thought given to the suspension in the TLX and sound deadening, it's a different and better drive in the TLX.

Not everyone will see it that way, though. They'll look a the dual screens on the dash and the motor similarities between the Accord and the TLX and declare the Accord to be the better value.

Accords are nice, sporty, mainstream cars that are cheap to own and fix. The Acura is all those things too. But, it handles better, rides better, steers better, has better materials inside and out. And, if you want, a torque vectoring rear in their SH AWD version. Can't get those things in an Accord.

Playing devil's advocate for a moment, a neighbor bouight an Accord Hybrid a few weeks ago. LOVES IT. Drives and handles like a regular Accord while getting 40 MPG. Impressive.

My wife is all about MPG. IF she doesn't get a TLX, it will probably be another Accord, but a Hybrid.

carnaught

My wife is all about MPG. IF she doesn't get a TLX, it will probably be another Accord, but a Hybrid.

Ditto for Mrs. Carnaught. We got 51.7 mpg with the last tankful, actual calculated mpg's. This is in all no-econ mode, and about 30% highway. Granted, we can expect a decrease this summer when the a/c is going, but for this size car with all its (Touring model) luxury features, is quite impressive. While hardly a performance machine, it is surprisingly fun and not a slug to drive as we found was the case with the Fusion Hybrid.

Sorry for the digression from this forum.

andres3

graphicguy said:

I get people not liking the styling of the TL. Personally, I did like it. I thought it was bold and unique, which suited me fine.

I've owned both the S4 and the TL SH AWD. TL SH AWD is mighty close to the Audi. No, the TL wasn't as fast as the S4, but it was every bit as adept in the handling dept and was very confidence inspiring to drive. It matched the S4 in the feature category. Service costs on the TL vs the S4 were miniscule in comparison. MPG was certainly better on the TL vs the S4, too. And, for the money I paid (under $40K) for the TL SH AWD Advance it offered huge value.

Don't get me wrong, I liked my S4. Didn't like the reliability (lack thereof) of the S4 and didn't like the MPG, nor the maintenance costs, either.

The S4 has been guzzling gas in the city/freeway traffic I drive in lately. I take short trips, lots of traffic lights, and I can see less than 20 MPG with my lead foot in the S4. I'm not happy about that, but I know it is possible to get 30 MPG in the thing if you maintain a constant high velocity over large distances, and I'm very happy about that.

Different driver, different results, but what kind of spectacular MPG did you get in your TL - SH AWD? To be fair, since the S4 is more powerful, it does tend to make a driver use that power more often IMO. More power = less fuel economy.

andres3

benjaminh said:

The 2016 Acura ILX has a new engine and transmission, as well as several other improvements. Previously it wasn't very competitive at the entry level, but now I think it is. The most direct competitor is the 2015 Audi A3 1.8. Both are good cars, but here are few comparison points....

2016 ILX base
$27,900 msrp
0-60: 6.2 (according to C & D)
hp 201
trunk: 12.3
8 speed DSG
29 mpg comb

2015 Audi A3 1.8
$29,900 msrp
0-60: 6.5 (C & D)
hp 170
trunk 10
6 speed DSG
27 mpg

Each one has advantages and disadvantages when it comes to standard equipment. The A3 has standard leather, standard XM in a better standard stereo, and split folding rear seats, none of which comes standard on the ILX.

But the ILX has standard the following things that I think are lacking on the base A3: moonroof, heated seats, LED headlights, rearview camera, smart entry/putshbutton start, USB port, 2 years longer power train warranty, Siri Eyes Free, etc.

Obviously somewhat difficult to compare, but I'd say that the ILX standard things are "worth" substantially more to me than the standards on the A3.

If you add a moonroof, pushbutton start, heated seats, back up camera, etc. to the A3 then the price seems to inflate to c. $36k or so. But the Acura model that would compete with that would be the ILX premium which is c. $30k msrp. That is a significant price difference.

The Audi has a lot more prestige than the Acura, but the ILX is likely to be more reliable and have a lower cost of ownership than the A3.

Yes, the ILX is based on the Civic, but then the A3 is based on the Golf, and so I don't see much of a difference there.

Both are good cars, but I do think that Acura is back in the game with the 2016 ILX.

I think the 1.8 A3 is the lease special fleet queen badge buyer edition. Any car person in their right mind would pony up the extra $3K for a better, stronger engine that actually has better fuel economy to boot. In other words, the 2.0T is better than the 1.8T in every measurable way except weight.

I know that makes the price gap larger, but that would be the more realistic comparison in my mind. Hey, I compared a TL-AWD to an S4 and opted to pay nearly $15K more for the S4.

andres3

markcincinnati said:

roadburner said:

I read an article about people who seek speeding tickets so they can brag -- obtusely -- about their income, as in "I can afford that [speeding ticket]." That's inane -- maybe even insane.

Yesterday we were out and about in snowy Cincinnati -- only 4-wheel drive vehicles seemed to be venturing out -- I saw an A8L and my comment was, "I don't care how much money we have, how big the bonus is, etc, don't ever get an A8 for me." Sure the car suggests something about the owner's income -- but were I to think about spending inordinate sums of money to haul my skinny (or fat, as the case may be) butt around (mostly with no one else in the car with me), my choice would be an S6 -- pretty much the ultimate sleeper car if you axe me. Probably only a very few would even know of its somewhat lofty price tag, as a matter of fact. But that's just me. My friend buys A8's and never has any passengers in them -- I am so tempted to inquire if he has more money than sense. I just keep my mouth shut.

I only wish I was so rich that speeding tickets and the financial penalty of them didn't bother me one iota. Of course, they would still bother me on principle, but it would be nice to just be able to hire a lawyer for 3 times the ticket cost to fight them for me on that principal rather than waste my own time.

As for A8's, I think a lot of buyers that drive them with no passengers get them for the Luxury and not the sport side of the equation. Lots of room for the driver, a cushy ride, and probably more sound insulation from the world than an A6 would offer. The ultimate side of luxury from Audi. However, if I had enough money for a dedicated sport/track car, I'd probably settle in on an S6 as my dream everyday driver (and I have one child).

andres3

tlong said:

benjaminh said:

I have to admit that Audis and BMWs are beautiful cars, at least to me. They call out to me in a way few other cars do. MB, however, has lost me with their, to me, "mean" looking styling of late. But looking at the reviews of the local Audi dealer just now I came across this:

"Currently have my Audi A4 in for repairs. It has 57,000 miles on it, and I will be walking out with a $5000+ repair bill. This is on top of $1500+ I spent on repairs in the last 7 months...."

Yikes! Acura stirs my emotions too, and part of that is the desire for reliability, durability, and low cost of ownership. If I want drama in my life I'll watch television or a movie. I don't need my car to give it to me lol!

I had a '98 Audi A4 and loved that car - V6 with a 5 speed manual. It was without a doubt the best driving car I have ever owned - smooth, sharp, and shifted like butter. But I got rid of it earlier than any other car I have ever owned - at 88K miles. It was already nickel and diming me with semi-expensive repairs - primarily a cooling system issue that the dealer couldn't seem to resolve but at $750-$1000 per visit while they kept replacing parts - thermostat, fan clutch, etc. So I finally and grudgingly sold it and bought my current ride, an '05 Acura TL (now at 150K miles). The Acura has given me almost no trouble and it's a great car (and one of the good looking TLs rather than the later disasters), but it is still big and heavy and sloppy next to my A4. I really still do miss that Audi. But I really do like the reliability of my Acura.

Imagine if you had access to a great relatively lower cost Audi mechanic or two, that could have properly diagnosed the issues with your old A4 on the first attempt only replacing the parts that actually needed replacing! I have access to such a mechanic and it's part of the reason I love Audi so much. Incompetent, or worse, dishonest mechanics can end up costing you a lot of money.

roadburner

markcincinnati- Mmy opinions pretty much align with this article, which essentially anoints the M235i as the true successor to the E46 M3- although I'm more than "slightly annoyed that it’s not used on a broader range of the company’s products." It's shrewd but cynical marketing on Munich's part, forcing enthusiasts to pay considerably more to get a car with traditional BMW driving characteristics. Even European drivers are unsure of which end their 1er is driven, so I suppose BMW figures why bother offering a better driving experience.

Another problem is that the competition has become much more intense as the playing field has leveled. It used to be that great handling, supportive seats, decent brakes, and an engaging powertrain were the exclusive province of the Europeans, but not any more.

For example, If I wanted an AWD performance car a BMW wouldn't be on my radar- a Golf R would be my likely choice, at least until the Focus RS arrives or Mazda offers their rumored AWD 300 hp MS3. While the M235i would be my choice if I wanted a great two door coupe, It's hard to ignore the S5, Mustang GT or 370Z NISMO which bracket the 2er at both ends of its price range. To each his own, but after 35 years of continuous BMW ownership I no longer many vehicles in their product line to be even remotely desirable...

benjaminh

andres3 said:

I think the 1.8 A3 is the lease special fleet queen badge buyer edition. Any car person in their right mind would pony up the extra $3K for a better, stronger engine that actually has better fuel economy to boot. In other words, the 2.0T is better than the 1.8T in every measurable way except weight.

I know that makes the price gap larger, but that would be the more realistic comparison in my mind. Hey, I compared a TL-AWD to an S4 and opted to pay nearly $15K more for the S4.

As you say, by the time you fully trick out an A3 2.0 it's c. $42k. It's no doubt better than an ILX premium in many ways, but then again it should be at that price. For $42k msrp you can get an Acura TLX 3.5 V-6 with SH-AWD and the Advance Package, which has some features not found on the A3, plus quite a bit more room for passengers and cargo. Not everybody wants to pay $10-$15k more for a comparable ca, but Audis are no doubt great cars these days—in looks, performance, design, and features....

andres3

I think a 2.0 A3 can be had for about $33-34K, and that's with Quattro AWD standard. Why must one "trick out" a vehicle?

laurasdada

Just received my latest issue of C & D, brief test of the new Jag XE. Skimmed the article, sounds like those that pine for the 3 series of old may want to check out the XE! Not a lightweight, but per the review, drives like one. With steering/road feel!

markcincinnati

I don't know how it happened, but my wife's interest in cars these days seems to focus on horsepower and torque, all-wheel-drive, safety, handling capability (even if hardly ever tapped), some bells and whistles (but she thinks cruise control is the devil's own feature, refuses to use it) -- like blind spot monitoring, sat nav and voice commands for the phone and nav -- and, big wheels and tires (she has to have 20" wheels and very wide, low profile Ultra High Performance All-Seasons).

Sure, she wants good gas mileage and a reliable and durable car -- all wrapped up in a vehicle that meets her definition of "soul." Her SQ5 (and, truth be told, probably a Porsche Macan) dots all the "i's" etc. Her Infiniti FX35 -- a car that I thought was very capable, even though it lacked a 354HP supercharged engine -- was very well built, was reliable for nearly 60,000 miles (so I can't speak to its durability) and despite its thrashy engine note, was pretty much fun to drive (if you could stand 16MPGs). Yet, her Infiniti and my Acura TL pretty much made her run, not walk to the Audi, BMW, Cadillac, Mercedes, Porsche, Volvo and VW dealers to find a CUV -- a high performance CUV. The 300HP X3 was good, the Volvo XC60 Type-R was good, too, the Mercedes M class, VW Toureg and Cadillac SRX all had merit. We even tried the top o' the line Jeep Grand both with and without the Hemi. The MDX and RDX were also tested and quickly rejected.

When we got to the 3,0T Audi Q5 there was a glimmer of hope -- and there we were torn between the Q5 and X3 -- until we test drove the SQ5. I've never seen $21,000 (the down payment on the $65K MSRP) exit the checking account more quickly -- I think the second test drive of the SQ5 sealed the deal.

Yet, some here have spouses (or significant others) who are all about gas mileage or roominess for kids, dogs -- and all the stuff that goes along with kids and dogs.

And, the good news is, we're all right -- the SQ5 is the best car, just as the MDX or the TLX or the 535 or the ATS or A4 quattro or even the lowly Accord -- all of these vehicles are the best for "your" circumstances and situations.

When we get to the ELLPS and LPS class of cars, we are well beyond the basics -- we're into vehicles that are helping us in their own ways to self-actualize. That is what it is about -- finding the car that today will help you self-actualize. I'd add, if your spending on a new car doesn't help you even in some tiny way to self-actualize, you've NOT chosen wisely.

One of the car magazines (Automobile perhaps, hell, I dunno, I subscribe to all of them for pity's sake), has a phrase they use "No Boring Cars." I think as we enter one of the later decades of life, we do actually start to believe "now is the time to eschew 'boring' cars" (and other things, but this is the place for cars, NOT for other things); we decide we can differentiate between an Impala and a CTS, we can appreciate a Panamera (even if we decide not to spend that much on a car).

I've really enjoyed reading all the posts here (well mostly), for example the ones about the upcoming trip to Germany to pick up the new BMW, the good the bad and the ugly S4 issues, the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat, so to speak.

I do enjoy the many perspectives y'all bring to the party here. I love it when this forum is active -- even when time doesn't permit my participation.

We are, if you axe me, in the golden age of cars -- almost limitless choice and hardly a klinker in the bunch.

I now have 23,000+ miles on my '14 S4 -- today I lust for an S6, tomorrow I'll instead hope for a new, slightly larger S4 to be unveiled. All the while, I am impressed every time I get behind the wheel of my current car. Reading your posts about your adventures in car shopping (and some mis-adventures) is great fun, often informative and from time to time frustrating.

Sorry to get so sentimental, but this forum is really a terrific outlet for those of us car enthusiasts whose appetite is larger than our bank accounts. It also has been, for me at least, a fantastic catharsis.

As you were.

flightnurse

andres3 said:

I think a 2.0 A3 can be had for about $33-34K, and that's with Quattro AWD standard. Why must one "trick out" a vehicle?

This is simple, because we can. Some of the new tech stuff is cool, what is really nice is cars today are rolling computers in which one could code a car to have these new techie stuff without paying for them. The downside is, when you take your car into the dealer they will update your firmware if an update is out. How to side step this is, to tell your service managers NOT to update the firmware.

flightnurse

laurasdada said:

Just received my latest issue of C & D, brief test of the new Jag XE. Skimmed the article, sounds like those that pine for the 3 series of old may want to check out the XE! Not a lightweight, but per the review, drives like one. With steering/road feel!

Jag needs to prove themselves, being a viable BMW alternative. So will Jag be giving away the XE for the first 6 months or so or will they play by the rules and gouge people on the leases? Time will tell.

nyccarguy

@flightnurse‌

I think it is fantastic that you really enjoy your 320i. I don't think it is a bad car at all. I'm not disputing that it gets fantastic mileage or eats up hours of western US highways without a hint of driver fatigue. The car is comfortable and quiet. It is more spacious than the E90 I had. I just don't get that euphoric feeling inside that screams at me: "find a way to get this car, NOW!"

roadburner

laurasdada said:

Just received my latest issue of C & D, brief test of the new Jag XE. Skimmed the article, sounds like those that pine for the 3 series of old may want to check out the XE! Not a lightweight, but per the review, drives like one. With steering/road feel!

I read that as well; Jaguar is joining Cadillac and Lexus in taking over some of the turf BMW has abandoned. I'll definitely give the XE a look.