Honda Latitude

odman

Honda's strategy for pricing the Latitude will be challenging. They likely don't plan it as a huge volume car but expect it to do well (50-80,000 units/year?).

I think that the CR-V and Caravan are good benchmarks. It needs to come in under the CR-V, and be somewhat competitive against the Caravan. In Europe last year the Stream 2.0 was E22,500 vs E24000 for the CR-V, a difference of E1,500. I picked up the Feb Car Guide with '03 pricing which shows the CR-V at C$27,100. Knocking C$2,500 off for the same Stream/CR-V price difference suggests a Canadian price of $24,500 at most. FWD Elements start at C$23,900, so depending on content, I would expect to see base Latitudes start around C$23,750-C$24,500.

Caravans start at C$25,725 (although heavy rebates and incentives knock this down further) and MPVs at $26k, so this would be about as competitive as it needs to be, since it won't be chasing Caravan volumes and the "smaller car=smaller price" demand in the market will be off-set by the market's willingness to pay a bit more for it being a Honda.

The US is different, but there I would expect to see it come in at about US$17,500-$18,500.

raychuang00

I think Honda has really lucked out this time.

Yes, they have admitted that abandoning the hatchback market proved to be a wrong idea, as evidenced by the big revival in hatchback sales (the Mazda Protegé 5 is flying out the doors of dealerships, Ford is surprised at the strong sales of the Focus ZX5 hatchback, and sales of the Pontiac Vibe/Toyota Matrix "twins" have been doing well lately).

However, the Honda Stream is very easily adaptable for the US market, mostly because it's built on the same platform as the CR-V and Element. Given that the Stream will probably weigh about the same (or slightly less) as the 2003 Honda Accord LX sedan, with the 2.4-liter I-4 i-VTEC engine the Honda Latitude won't be a sluggard with it comes to accelerating from stoplights. If Honda decides to abandon the third row of seats on the Latitude they could reconfigure the interior to be a very roomy vehicle indeed.

I think Ford, Volkswagen and Nissan are watching what Honda does with close interest. If Honda does introduce the Latitude this fall as a 2004 model and the vehicle does sell well, we might see very serious consideration for selling the Ford Focus C-Max, Volkswagen Touran and a Nissan-badged variant of the next-generation Renault Scenic in the USA as early as the fall of 2004 as 2005 models.

Would Americans buy this type of car? I think they would. The fact the Pontiac Vibe/Toyota Matrix "twins" (the closest thing we have to the other vehicles I'v mentioned) is doing well in sales bodes well for this category of vehicle.

jimjps

In my opinion there doesn't really seem to be much basis to assume North America will get the Latitude for model year 2004. If they were tooling up for North American production of the Latitude we would likely have some good evidence by now. A highly modified Stream (Latitude) made for the NA market would almost have to be built in NA to be profitable. It seems more likely they would just import the Stream from Europe (and I really wish they would) with minor modifications (like dump the 3rd seat) but the problem with that is it will be hard to keep a good profit margin on a somewhat utilitarian European-made import. Note that they only decided to import the higher margin SI from Europe when they probably could have sold more 5-door hatch backs, but at a negligible margin. It all leads me to think we won't get a Stream or a Latitude for the 2004 model year. I hope I am wrong.

ferretwalrus

May be you are unfortunately right. no, we are not lucky enough to see Stream/Latitude/Wish in the coming 2004 year. there's a rumour in the wind that NY debut will not show it but Accord Wagon--Tourer

makabe

As far as I know from my research of trying to self-import a Honda Stream to the US, all Streams are currently made in Japan. I'm not sure how this plays into the financial nature of the discussion of whether we will get the Latitude except to say that European currency fluctuations don't seem to be a factor.

My pipe dream for the Stream, and the one I was trying to import, would have been the 1.7 litre 5 speed manual. A pipe dream because I don't believe Honda would consider bringing it to market if it is perceived as underpowered, even if it got great gas mileage as a result. I guess in an ideal world, the Steam would have Honda's new diesel or a hybrid powertrain for really terrific mileage. I can dream, can't I?

ferretwalrus

So excited to hear that! Can you tell me how to self-import a "Stream" in USA? How much does it cost for your 1.7L latitude? (in fact I'm looking for a 2.0L auto one, and destination is Canada)

In the future, if there're some problems with this car or need some parts to be changed, where will you go to repaire it?

Thanks a lot!

makabe

I was not successful in my attempt to self import. The red tape was too much for me and my wallet. I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that I actually managed to get the vehicle into the US.

To clarify, I'm hoping the Latitude/Stream comes to the US/Canada with the 1.7 and a manual tranny and a 3rd row seat--not a lot of power, 7 passengers in a pinch, and high mileage.

chris777

I didn't get too far with my investigation after I began thinking about trying to get replacement parts if the car was ever damaged.

did you actually get any rough dollar amounts , out of curiosity?

makabe

I gave up about 6 months ago. At that time, I was looking at about $19500 for the 1.7 LS 5 speed. The drive train is the same as the standard civic, so I did not think I would have any trouble locating engine/transmission/drive train parts. I did think it would be a good idea to also bring some body panels, glass and headlights, tail lights, service manual, and bumper covers. Again, at the time, I was looking at another $3000 for those items, plus about $1500-2000 shipping. I never got actual figures for tariffs because they wouldn't talk about numbers until I had the car federalized, which could have meant having it test for crash worthiness--no thanks.

Prices seem to be a little higher these days because of the Euro/dollar exchange rate. You can go to honda's French, German, Danish, etc. sites and get all the vital statistics you need.

Hope this helped, and I'm sorry to burst any bubbles.

regfootball

In order to play in the US, the Stream would need a larger 4 or a v6.

varmint

Nah,

I think you're over-estimating how big the Stream is. Think Civic five door hatch. A few American journalists have driven it with the optional 2.0 and found it perfectly acceptable. A V6 would be overkill.

Now, if Honda brought over the latest JDM Ody, that might require a bigger power plant.

makabe

The Stream's dimensions are as follows:

Length 179.9 inches
Width 66.73 inches
Height 62.6 inches
Wheelbase 107.28 inches
Weight 3172 lbs (2.0 litre, manual)

The Stream is more of a tall Civic wagon than a 5 door Civic.

For comparison, the CRV is basically the same size. The Civic sedan is 5 inches shorter, the 600 lbs. lighter (and uses the 1.7 litre 4 cyl) and the Accord sedan is 10 inches longer and about the same weight and comes with either the 2.4 litre 4 or larger V6.

I think the 2 litre 4 cyl would be adequate power for this vehicle. That said, I think would Honda probably bring it in with the 2.4 litre 4 cyl.

ferretwalrus

What's the estimated year that Honda will introduce Stream/Latitude to NA you guys think?

odman

Comparing the Stream to the old CR-V (99-01 model with the 146hp 2.0 engine) makes most sense.

The Stream is a little longer, a little narrower, a bit shorter in height, and a bit lighter. The old CR-V's dimensions were:
Length: 177.6
Width: 68.9
Height: 65.9
WB: 103.1
Weight: 3,261
 
The old CR-V got by on the 2.0 engine, with 0-60 times of 10.3 sec. According to CAR Magazine, the Stream does 0-60 in 9.9. If you could live with the CR-V's performance, the 2.0 would be fine, although most North Americans were crying for more juice in that car.

Interestingly, the two magazines got nearly identical 70-0 braking distances of 184 ft, despite being disc/disc on the Stream and disc/drum on the CR-V.

varmint

That makes a good comparison. Though I was expecting the Stream to be a bit lighter. Is that the curb weight for the JDM AWD version of the Stream?

FWIW, the current CR-V in Europe and Japan both use the same 2.0L engine used in the Stream. The Stream's 2.0 is much "torqier" than the 1996-2001 CR-V.

odman

No, the weight is for the FWD 2.0i VTEC Sport with 5-speed manual in the UK, not the heavier AWD model unfortunately.

I was going to list the engine specs but figured that HP calculations in Europe might be different. The magazine lists 154 hp @ 6,300 and 142 lb-ft @4,000.

The '01 CR-V in CD shows 146hp @ 6,200 and 133 lb-ft @ 4,500.

As well, I can tell you for sure that having the VTEC makes a bigger difference than the difference in the numbers might suggest -- my '98 Odyssey 2.3 VTEC feels much stronger off the line and at the top end than the '95-'97 2.2 non-VTECs, even though the rated difference was only about 10 hp/lb-ft between them.

varmint

There's only a 35lbs difference between a 2WD and AWD CR-V LX, but I dunno if that would hold true for the Stream. FWIW, last I checked (which was a while ago), the AWD Stream was only available with the 1.7L engine. =(

odman

With only a 35lb difference, you wonder why Honda bothers to offer a 2WD CR-V. (they don't bother in Canada -- you can only get the AWD). How much of a premium does the AWD LX carry over the FWD?

Since the Stream uses the CR-V AWD system, which itself was based on the old Civic Wagon Realtime system, you would think all would come in AWD mode.

varmint

Despite the fact that RT4WD is almost never engaged and weighs very little, the EPA grants the 2WD CR-V a higher mpg rating.

I forget what the cost difference is, but Edmunds has it in the new car data. You'll just have to convert it to loonies.

odman

According to Edmunds, the LX FWD auto starts at $18,597, and the LX AWD auto starts at $19,751. The difference of $1,150 doesn't seem like too much.

odman

I stumbled on to this link to Honda's UK Press site (click on Press Packs at the top). There's lots of good info on the Stream as well as other models in it.

http://www.hondauk-media.co.uk/hondauk/car_index.html

ferretwalrus

Nice pictures! Though stupid Honda forbid Americans to buy stream, we still can look at it.

varmint

The press pack also lists a 0-62 mph time of 9.4 seconds for the 2.0 with a manual transmission. Not too shabby.

strager

I expect Honda to announce that one of these will be sold in the US this year, at the NY Auto Show. Although the redesigned HR-V may not be unveiled in Japan till July, I wouldn't be surprised to see a worldwide intro at the NY Auto Show.

Honda badly needs an affordable small wagon/hatch, not to mention that they may be in danger of losing the best selling small car title to the Corolla/Matrix this year.

varmint

With the Element on sale here, I doubt we'll see the HR-V. In fact, I've read that they are bringing the Element over to the JDM market as the "GO-OPEN", or something like that.

strager

Varmint, the HR-V as you may know is very different than the Element. The HR-V is a raised sub-compact car and will compete with vehicles like the upcoming Ford Fusion. Some cannibalization of CR-V and Element sales could still happen with the HR-V though.

Honda imports the Element (Go-Open), MDX and Odyssey (La Great) to Japan to provide incremental sales, but that doesn't impact the decision to sell the HR-V here.

IMHO, the HR-V will be a partial Honda answer to Toyota's Scion. In fact, Honda filed to register the HR-V trademark in the US in January this year, which may imply that US intro is not far off.

ferretwalrus

AH-HA seems very well informed, everything he's said has come true. AH-HA is reporting that we will see two new models from Honda-Acura soon. They are the Honda Latitude and Acura TSX.

Of the Latitude, AH-HA says "Honda will launch a new model by next summer(2003-4), the Latitude. The 2004 Latitude is basically a U.S. version of the compact 7-passenger Stream MPV. It will be aimed at young families looking for a versatile vehicle and as a samller, cheaper alternative to the Odyssey minivan."
It sounds like Honda will give the PT Cruiser some competiton. Strange how six years ago Honda sold a vehicle like this and it was a total flop, now they're the new market craze. I remember thinking it would be a good idea to bring this over when they first came out with the Stream.

Of the TSX, AH-HA says "Next spring(2003), Acura will launch the all-new TSX sport sedan. Based on the upcoming JDM Accord, the TSX will be positioned between the RSX and TL with an estimated price between $24,000 and $28,000. Look for a near production concept at the 2003 NAIAS in Janaury."

Interesting about this AH-HA guy. Over the Saturn board there's a guy that goes by the same name that has been impressively accurate with his future automobile news about GM.

artdecho

I hope, when Honda launches it, it is a 2nd generation model, as it seems the 1st gen is looking a bit old-in-the-tooth compared to the new Toyota Wish and Mitsubishi's revised Grandis.
The Grandis looks particularly strong and I read that Mitsubishi is considering launching it in the US (& I hope that means Canada) as well. See Mitsubishi's Japanese site for details. Styling and interior-wise, the Grandis (and to a lesser extent, the Wish) have it all over the current generation Stream. Let's hope Honda rises to the challenge.

regfootball

yes, the Grandis is quite fetching for a SPACE UTILITY WAGON (the new term).

wheelz4

I don't care if you call it a sport-van, space utility wagon, van-wagon hybrid crossover or whatever....I want one, Mitsubishi. (Sorry, I know this is the Latitude thread but there's been so little info from Honda....maybe we need a Grandis thread and a Toyota Wish one too.) Check out these pix:
http://www.auto-g.jp/image.html?f=news/200305/20/newcar04/01_b.jp- g

http://www.auto-g.jp/image.html?f=news/200305/20/newcar03/02_b.jp- g

http://www.auto-g.jp/image.html?f=news/200305/20/newcar02/01_b.jp- g

from what I've been able to find out, the Grandis is an inch shorter, an inch narrower and 4" less in height than an MPV. Also virtually the same footprint as a Murano (same length/wheelbase) but 3' narrower and just over an inch less in height. It's available with AWD, in 6 or 7 seat versions, has a centre walk-through and CR-V-style flip up tray. I'll take the 6 seater sport version, Mitsubishi, if you're listening.

nwng

but unfortunately, NA tastes are too conservative for that interior. So I do not think it will do well in focus groups

wheelz4

It actually looks conservative to me compared to Nissan's new Quest.....don't forget, Mitsubishi's market is more youthfull than most, so I think it shouldn't be a problem. I think it's great (& I'm 45).......Latitude and Wish look dull and boring by comparison. I don't want a dull and boring (& large and cumbersome) minivan or a huge and inefficient SUV....I want an edgy and exciting sport-van/wagon, seating(occasionaly) for 6, good handling, economical to run.....the Grandis (especially), along with the Latitude and Wish, fit the bill.

ferretwalrus

With introduction of the sporty Si hatchback and gas/electric Hybrid sedan, Civic should see no major changes for a while, though Honda jealously guards its plans and could spring a surprise or two. One of those could be a U.S version of the ultra-sporty 200-hp Type-R hatchback recently launched in Japan and Europe. Another prospect is the Stream, a Civic-based sport wagon that's been sold overseas for about two years. We spotted one a while back at American Honda headquarters, where executives were presumably evaluating it. One source predicts the name would be changed to Latitude for U.S. sale, assuming that's approved. If it is, look for a 2.0-liter 4-cyl engine, tall-body styling, and seating for up to seven in Honda's reply to the aforementioned Matrix and related Pontiac Vibe.

Honda is also said to be mulling a smaller-than-Civic car for North America. This would be based on the popular Japan-market Fit, a low-cost 4-dr hatchback known in Europe as the Honda Jazz. It's another high-body 5-passenger design, but with 1.6- and 1.7-liter 4-cyl engines and, say overseas journalists, surprising interior room for the overall size. Industry-watchers think American Honda might appropriate it to counter Toyota's forthcoming youth-oriented Scion models, but only if those threaten bottom-end Civic sales. Nothing is firm yet, but the betting is that Fit/Jazz wouldn't reach U.S. dealers until model-year 2005 at the earliest.

ferretwalrus

Tokyo, May 14, 2003-Mitsubishi Motors Corporation (MMC) today announced that it will launch the next-generation Grandis, a regular-size 3-row seating minivan, at dealerships throughout Japan on May 17. 2WD models return top class mileage of 11.4 km/l, 8.7l/100km

ferretwalrus

Tokyo, May 19, 2003-Mitsubishi Motors Corporation (MMC) today announced that it had received 5,018 orders for its new Grandis minivan as of Sunday, May 18.

At a press conference to launch the Grandis last Wednesday, MMC declared it would donate 3,000 yen to the Astro Boy Fund for each order it received by May 18, aiming for 3,000 orders in total. Actual orders exceeded this target by 2,018 units, bringing the company's total contribution to 15.054 million yen.

The Astro Boy Fund's agenda calls for supporting the health and well-being of children around the world and providing them with the means to create their own future.

MMC chose to donate to the Fund because of this commitment to helping children, which is perfectly matched to the main customer base of the Grandis: young families.

I'm 31 years old, plan to have 2 babies,Grandis is my best selection if Honda refuse to introduce Latitude.

ferretwalrus

Though it's been on sale in Japan for a while now, Mitsubishi's new minivan could very well make its way out of Asian markets, land worldwide, most possiblly next summer(2004) in USA and Canada together. As of right now, Mitsubishi has two people carriers in their market - the Space Star, and the Space Wagon, however the larger of the two, the Space Wagon is aging quite rapidly and its replacement is imminent. That's where this Mitsubishi comes in - the Grandis.

ferretwalrus

The Grandis is by all means a big car. The monospace design reaches 4.8 metres in length and fulfills its exterior size with the ability to transport either six or seven people. The Grandis has been styled according to family tradition with the new triangular bar between the grille and aggressive, sloping headlamps seeming very similar to the new Colt hatchback.

Currently, the Grandis is available with either a front wheel drive, or all wheel drive. It features a 2.4 liter inline-4 that creates 165 horsepower - the same engine that will end up being the top available engine on the Outlander. It is currently available with a four speed automatic. Emissions and crash tests pending, the Grandis should be available for sale within a year in European and North America markets.

revka

Ferretwalrus - You should share your news about the Grandis in our ongoing Mitsubishi Grandis discussion.

And let's get back to the subject of the Honda Latitude in this discussion. Thanks!

Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards

wheelz4

Nice to see there's a Grandis thread, Revka. I'll use that for the Grandis in the future and try to drum up some Latitude info so we can get back on track here as well.

ferretwalrus

BY ALAN OHNSMAN
BLOOMBERG NEWS

Torrance, Calif. -- Honda Motor Co. will expand its vehicle lineup next year in the U.S., the automaker's biggest market, by adding a Honda-brand wagon and an Acura sports sedan, a new-product analyst said.

Japan's second-largest automaker will add the Latitude small wagon, based on the Stream model it sells in Japan and Europe, and the four-door Acura TSX sedan, said analyst Joseph Langley at AutoHorizon, a Massapequa Park, New York, consulting firm that provides information on new vehicles to suppliers. He said he expects both models to go on sale next year as 2004 models.

dudleyr

Of course the TSX has been on sale for months, so how new is this news?

jchan2

The Toyota Wish could be the next Scion. I would love to see a small, seven seat people mover for around $16K. The Latitude works for me as well, and so does the Grandis. The VW Touran is coming, so we may now have a sudden burst of mini-minivans that are so great in Europe/Asia. While I'm posting, is there any possibility that the Japanese market Toyota Ipsum (Another mini-minivan) will come? The Ipsum could go to Toyota/Lexus and the Wish could go to Scion.

kmead

Sadly, we will not be getting the VW Touran, we likely will get a min SUV of the Golf A5 chassis in 2006, by which time I expect the wave will have crested and VW will have missed the boat. Again.

I think the Touran would be a fine product for the US market as the Eurobox truck isn't selling very well and they have a very limited supply as they ended production on it last year. Which means no VW vans for 1-2 years.

Right now VW is in a similar situation to the 1993 time period when they had no new products and very limited supplies of any of the products they did have. It almost forced VW out of North America, at least this time they have plenty of other vehicles but the designs are now quite old and are losing sales momentum.

I for one would love to own a Touran as my day to day car to replace my A4 Golf, and a Sharan would be a nice replacement for our B3 Passat. Alas, VW will likely lose me as a customer over the next few years as none of their vehicles meet our family needs. Which is sad as we have been VW buyers for the last 22 years.

I hope the Lattitude makes it with 7 passenger seating (the rear ones being occaisional) as it would be a good non van vehicle that can carry all of us plus a few friends. Maybe we won't have to get a full size van!

jimjps

Kmead, I have to agree with your every point. We unfortunately won't see the Touran, and VW is always JTL (Just Too Late) as a matter of policy. It is looking to me that Honda will be JTL on the Latitude/Stream also. That Bloomberg newsbit appears to be rehashed old news and I haven't heard or seen anything new indicating any likelihood that North America will get the Stream/Latitude any time soon. Where are they going to make them? They'd have to be tooling up already for 04. Certainly they won't be imported. It is a sad commentary that North America is considered off-limits for something so practical while Asia and Europe has such a good selection. We only get goofy styling excercises like the Matrix (boy racer), Element (Honda abandons the wind-tunnel), PT Cruiser (what exactly are those protruding fenders supposed to do besides making the car exterior a little bigger and adding some turbulence?) BTW check out the Focus C-Max which is very similar to the Touran and Stream. We can rest assured we won't get that in NA either.

wheelz4

....when you see all these sporty, efficient, practical vehicles available almost everywhere but here. Canadians especially prefer compact and efficient and reasonably priced vehicles (minivans outsell SUV's here and compact cars outsell midsize ones as well). The only thing that would hold me back from buying a CMAX would be Ford's quality and the fact that it's only a 5 seater, although it does have a higher driving position and a more flexible rear seat than the Focus wagon. The Touran looks good too....great interior but somewhat bland exterior...a diesel option would be great. I have some reservations styling-wise with the Latitude (if it ever gets here) but would definitely check it out, along with the Wish and my current fave, the Grandis. As current minivans all seem to be going the "Grand" extended route, let's hope that opens up some room for some more-sensibly-sized, more sporty, more efficient 6-7 seaters. The small wagons (Matrixes, P5's and the like) don't have enough room for a small family and all their stuff and the current crop of minivans (with the exception of the MPV) are too much vehicle for us.

jimjps

Wheelz4, yes I would be a little cautious on the C-Max for the first few years. Interesting that you mention the Focus Wagon, as that may be what we wind up getting if there is no Latitude coming. I think they are making the wagons reasonably well after 3-4 years of "working the bugs out". We prefer something no longer then 180" and the Grandis is about the same length as the MPV (thanks for the sites). Also the Focus wagon is available with a manual tranny, 60Month/100K warranty (very important)and that 220lb rated rack and they are really cheap with all the rebates - ZTW for 14K$. Too bad it wasn't about 4" higher. I'd still prefer a Stream/Latitude but they must be at least a year or more away. OK, who can blame us for getting off topic all the time when there is no news from Honda.

odman

This review was fairly positive. The interior shot on page 4 shows that the folding
seats take up a fair bit of usable cargo room.

Hurry up Honda, bring it over.

http://www.channel4.com/apps26/4car/jsp/main.jsp?lnk=231_2&re- viewid=279

wheelz4

Keep checking various Honda sites but still no news on Stream/Latitude. Saw your Grandis link, Odman (but am not registered, so couldn't view it). Too bad if it's true that the Grandis isn't coming. If Mitsubishi doesn't want my money, I hope SOMEONE will bring out a stylish, affordable,efficient and sporty 6 seater van/wagon
hybrid in the next year or two.

varmint

Anyone note the warranty listed in that review. I believe it was 3 years or 90,000 miles.

wsibi04

I'd certainly consider the Latitude if and when it makes it over here. Regarding the VW Touran, according to the News section of the June issue of Motor Trend, "North American Volkswagen dealers will get the Touran, after all..." It should be released here in fall of 2004, after the debut of the next-gen Golf. Hopefully this news will make Toyota consider bringing the Wish here. The more the merrier, right?