Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

kdshapiro

No hornets nest. If you don't like using oil you can always shut off your electricity, bike to work...etc.

Reality is reality but I agree I would not rather give more to the car companies. Having to pay more upfront to pay less in the back doesn't sit very well with me.

goodegg

Would you rather have Exxon LOSE $10 billion and pay nothing in income tax to the US Treasury? Like GM and Ford?
Would like to see their pension plans go unfunded, collapse, and have the US gov't bail them out?

Exxon is owned by shareholders, not by some nebulous unknown. Those people are making money, paying taxes on it, and respending it in the economy.

Exxon is a US corporation. Not a Saudi or Iranian. ANd they're a middleman between us and them. They spend huge amounts of money in security in the midEast and constantly build positive relationships with investors and customers in that region everyday. They probably have more to do with diplomacy and stability in the region than our own government.

Anything we can do to use less foreigh oil is a plus in my book. I'd rather pay more upfront (even to non-Arab Toyota)than send the money weekly to the midEast.

jeffyscott

I'll be waiting to hear the uproar over Toyota's huge 39% increase profits...or is that okay because it's only $3.2 billion not $10 billion, or is it okay becasue they are not an oil company?

Exxon-Mobil's $10 billion profits were on $100 billion in revenue...this is a 10% profit margin.

I guess we'd all be better off, somehow, if they were on the verge of bankruptcy and laying off 10s of thousands of employees, etc...

imidazol97

>Toyota's huge 39% increase profits

Haven't heard that trumpeted by the media darlings, who determine the "important" news for us peons to hear. Maybe it's because Toyota is one of their darlings. That huge increase ought to make some take note of where the money is going. Sounds like they could have been selling their cars for less or putting more quality into them.

mfletou1

I'm a hybrid owner who will defend companies like ExxonMobile. The profit margin in that industry is really not that excessive. All of these companies went through LONG stretches of losses and barely breaking even, and most of them, ExxonMobile in particularly are now investing heavily in R&D to develop cleaner technology.

They are an easy target right now, but that's not really the problem. The problem is lack of production. We haven't built a power plant in this country in THIRTY years! We are sitting on our vast resources, off shore, oil share, and ANWR because politically there is opposition (even though we can now mine them in an environmentally responsible manner). This nation already is spending billions on renewable energy (solar, biomass, geothermal--people don't realize it but last year's energy bill was huge for all of this).

We need a dual tract approach--increase domestic production and increase the use of renweable energies and encourage conservation. To that end, hybrids do help.

jlindh

I beg to differ with regard to "haven't built a power plant in this country in THIRTY years!" New power plants come online with some regularity.

Possibly you meant to say "oil refineries" and "oil shale".

imidazol97

>like ExxonMobile. The profit margin in that industry is really not that excessive. All of these companies went through LONG stretches of losses and barely breaking even, and most of them...
>ExxonMobile in particularly are now investing heavily

What were they doing with all those profits earlier? Weren't they to have been investing in expansion of resources? We've been through this same path before: huge profits on the oil companies' parts due to higher than needed prices. Talk of windfall tax profits. Mea culpas all around. And back to normal business.

Do any other states have an attorney general who has challenged the pricing of gasoline companies. Kentucky's attorney general is on his second round against Speedway (subsidiary of Marathon). First was for price hikes during aftermath of Katrina; now, price controlling the market (just the same as it does in SW Ohio).

elroy5

Americans are spoiled rotten. We want cheap gas prices, but will not let the oil companies drill near our beloved coastlines. If we don't want oil rigs near our beaches, we have to pay more for the overseas oil. Can't have your cake, and eat it too.

I usually keep my cars for at least 10 years. A hybrid car would save me money (I think) in the long run. As far as thinking gas will go back down to $2/gal, I would be willing to bet the price of a hybrid car, that it won't happen.

imidazol97

We'll see lower gas prices after the summer profit (driving) season and before the November elections. Then it's anyone's guess.

scape2

"Following your argument, we can say Hyundai-Kia is also big in the USA and the impression that theyre not getting the respect they deserve here should be consider as nonsense"

I don't know, I beg to differ. This person has opened my eyes a bit more when it comes to Hyunida-Kia brands. I did not realize they were that much of a factor worldwide in other markets. This really leads me to believe much of why Honda/Toyota owners dislike Hyunida products is pure status symbol and perception of the product. Not actually the facts about the products Hyundia produces and really how competitive Hyundia actually is to Toyota/Honda products. Education is key for Hyundia..

mfletou1

I meant to say off shore (drilling) and oil shale.

Forgot needing drilling rigs near beaches, we can't even have them in a remote part of Alaska that was specifically designated by Jimmy Carter to be for oil production!

The Senate just passed a bill that will produce a lot of natural gas (enough to heat and cool 6 million homes for 15 years) and 1.3 billion gallons of oil off the coast of Florida, so that will help. And it sets up a blueprint for similar deals along the Atlantic coast since there is also resources off the coasts of GA, NC, SC, VA.

scape2

>Toyota's huge 39% increase profits

"Haven't heard that trumpeted by the media darlings, who determine the "important" news for us peons to hear. Maybe it's because Toyota is one of their darlings. That huge increase ought to make some take note of where the money is going. Sounds like they could have been selling their cars for less or putting more quality into them"

And people claim they don't get overcharged for thier Toyota's?? The media has people so whipped up about Toyota they open thier wallets with no questions asked. :surprise:

jaxs1

This is wasting alot of space and probably only interests the few people arguing amongst themselves. I've seen smaller topics than this split off into a separate forum.

scape2

I will make this short. I know its a midsize sedan room. The Honda crowd is always saying how Honda products are not spendy.. We were all standing in a group talking. The father of a daughter brings up he bought a new Civic EX automatic (no nav). Said he shopped 4 dealers. Best price he could get was $19,750!!??? What the He...??!! I thought the Civic compteted with cars like Focus, ION, Corolla, Sentra, Elantra, Cobolt, Elantra?? Please tell me he is stupid...

backy

"Stupid" is pretty harsh. Could be he really, really wanted a Civic and was willing to pay for it. It's his money and a free country. Funny thing is, one could get an Accord (LX I4 at least, maybe better) for less than that. So he must really like a smaller car.

venus537

The media has people so whipped up about Toyota they open thier wallets with no questions asked.

It couldn't possibly be that Toyota is making products that people want to buy. :confuse:

venus537

another car will soon be added to this discussion, the Aura. hopefully this will spur some discussion about "sedans". i been looking forward to this car for a long time.

elroy5

Many people, myself included, have bought Accords and Camrys in the past. Their friends and family have ridden in them, and were obviously impressed. Over the years Toyota and Honda have built reputations for building the highest quality cars. When an Accord or Camry owner needs (or wants) a new car, they usually buy another Accord or Camry. When the other car companies can build a reputation for quality and reliability, they will benefit from word of mouth too. My 92 Accord was the best car I ever had for 12 years. Why would I take a chance on something different? Think about that. I'm not a gambler. I don't take chances with $20,000 or more $$$.

bhmr59

So your '92 was better than your present car?

kdshapiro

"I don't take chances with $20,000 or more $$$."

When it comes to cars I never buy the same car twice in a row. There is only on exception I would make. If you really think about where else can you spend this much money and be assured the product will perform it's intended function.

elroy5

It was the best car I had (by far) until I bought the 03 Accord.

explorerx4

more and more hyundai's at work. i know it is by word of mouth.

elroy5

When it comes to cars I never buy the same car twice in a row.

What does this statement mean? You've never bought a car that was good enough, to want another one. Or do you like taking chances? If you mean you would not buy another car of the same make a model, because they are the same car, that's not true at all. The only thing the 92, and 03 Accords have in common is the quality. Other than that, they are totally different cars (three generations apart).

kdshapiro

"Or do you like taking chances?"

I like "taking" chances as you put it. American, German, Japanese. You always take a chance when you buy a new car, they all can be lemons in spite of the statistics.

My point was, that for $20K and above or for that matter any price, 99.9% of the cars will fulfill their mission and get you from point A to point B.

elroy5

You always take a chance when you buy a new car, they all can be lemons in spite of the statistics.

The chances of an Accord being a lemon are slim. The odds (statistics) are stacked against it. If I have to gamble, I want it to be a "sure thing".

My point was, that for $20K and above or for that matter any price, 99.9% of the cars will fulfill their mission and get you from point A to point B.

Just getting from A to B is not enough. I would also like to be comfortable, and enjoy the ride with confidence.

backy

There are no "sure things" in cars. For example, people who bought a 2003 Accord rolled the dice... and lots of them "lost". Likewise, many owners of the 2007 Camry didn't fare well on the roll of the dice. Statistically, there's not a big difference in the risk of having a problem with any of the mid-sized cars. One strategy to minimize risk of a problem is to avoid the first year of any new car model.

elroy5

That's funny. Because I have an 03 EX V6 Accord Automatic. Yes, there was a recall on the trans. The dealer installed the fix kit, and everything is fine. Everything works just like it did the first day. Sorry to disappoint you.

venus537

i say buy the car that will give you the most satisfaction. most cars are reliable these days.

thegraduate

"Stupid" is pretty harsh. Could be he really, really wanted a Civic and was willing to pay for it. It's his money and a free country. Funny thing is, one could get an Accord (LX I4 at least, maybe better) for less than that. So he must really like a smaller car.

All very true. It is fairly common to see an LX-Special Edition Accord on the prices paid forum for around $19k or less. Paying more than sticker for a Civic these days is quite odd.

thegraduate

(i keep seeing...)more and more hyundai's at work. i know it is by word of mouth.

How do you know?

ontop

more and more hyundai's at work

More of Hyundai's what?

kdshapiro

All of what you alluded to is subjective, with each one of these sedans fulling a mission in different ways. I wouldn't spend money on a car that I didn't like, but there are a lot of choices to like, and for some there are sticking points that make or break a sale.

But I like trying out different manufacturers. So when it's time for a new car, it's time for a new manufacturer.

mfletou1

that when all the numbers are added up and the surveys come out, the 2007 Camry will STILL be among the more reliable sedans over the past year.

You're hearing a lot of noise about a stastically small number of cases. Time will tell.

wvgasguy

The Hybrids look good on paper but in reality without tax credits all your doing in redirecting any gas savings to the car companies instead

What a great comment. Since there are tax credits let's not ignore them. In "reality" I'm getting $2600 from the Fed's and $3750 from the state. If I were not, then how would taking dollars away from the oil companies who in turn give it to the terrorists for their oil and instead give it to the auto manufacturers who employ hard working people not be a good thing???

wvgasguy

Of coarse it is the politically correct thing to drive today if you want to be stylish.

I guess from the casual observer I may look "stylish"? I never thought going from a luxury car to an economy car (Camry Hybrid) would make me look more stylish. Then again I don't live on the left coast and I actually bought this because I'm able to average 38.7 mpg

wvgasguy

They should talk about the merits of their own cars, instead of bashing the competition.

When you're trying to sell a car that no one is buying then bashing the car that outsells all other mid size sedans is the first step. Unfortunately when you're at the bottom of the heap, bashing number 1 does not necessarily get you any higher?

wvgasguy

Germans have to wait over a month to get Sorentos and Tucsons because they can't get enough of those in stock"? Isn't it something, when you consider that Germans are creators of BMW, Audi and Mercedes?

I can see little german boys in the back of their daddy's 750iL day dreaming of the day they can get a Kia

backy

Sorry you were affected by that Accord tranny problem, but that's good it was fixed to your satisfaction. Just shows there are no perfect cars, but problems are rarely fatal.

scape2

"My point was, that for $20K and above or for that matter any price, 99.9% of the cars will fulfill their mission and get you from point A to point B. "

A Very, Very good point. Reliability is no longer cornered by Honda/Toyota. It was only a matter of time for this to happen. I have a co-worker who has owned an 2005.5 Jetta and he has never had a problem. We all know the Jetta's PAST reputation. As consumers find out they don't need to spend the extra $$ for a Honda or Toyota to get a reliable, quality built vehicle things will change. That consumers do have other very good choices in other sedans on the market. :shades:

scape2

I honestly believe the media has played a huge part in how the consumer views GM/Ford/Dodge products. I have found yet another in My September 06 Motor Trend. The Acura TSX has a 2.4L 205HP 4cyl engine. It shows a 0-60 of 7.9 - 8.3 seconds. Yet, in their sum-up Motor Trend claims "Impressive performer, great value"???? Don't you find this a little funny? When there are sedans with close to the same HP and better 0-60 times are poked for not enough power??

thegraduate

The Acura TSX has a 2.4L 205HP 4cyl engine. It shows a 0-60 of 7.9 - 8.3 seconds.Yet, in their sum-up Motor Trend claims "Impressive performer, great value"???? Don't you find this a little funny?

I do find that interesting, since the last Motor Trend (or Car and Driver possibly) I read showed 7.2 seconds to 60. (Comparison Test between Jetta, Accod, TSX, 6, and G6 GTP).

Also, performance includes a lot of factors, so, frankly, no i don't find it that wierd. If they had said something like "deceptively quick" or "lively acceleration", that would be obvious bias showing through. Anyone who has driven a TSX though can attest to the fact that it is one of the best, if not THE best handling cars available at its price point. Handling is "performance" too, remember; it's not all acceleration.

I could make basically the same case that you did, but with the Fusion. They say "Classy Looks, needs the power to match", a decidely indifferent comment, versus the positive comment about Acura TSX, yet the Fusion scored higher on their ratings scale. That doesn't seem right to me, either.

offdahiizzy

Thank God for the forums...newbie here, I can't decide between a G35 Sedan (2003, 04) and BMW 3 Series (02,03). Must haves includes, Xenon headlights, sun roof, leather, side impact airbags and active belts. Options I would like, but it doesn't have to have includes Navi, Memory seats, CD changer/MP3, AWD. I want to spend less than $20k. All suggestions and insights are welcomed. Thanks

wvgasguy

I can't decide between a G35 Sedan (2003, 04) and BMW 3 Series (02,03).

I'd research some sites that shows recalls and problems. A 4 year old BMW could end up being a money pit and unless you get it at a really good price you may lose big time. A 2 year old G could be a good buy, especially if you get it from someone (like me) who traded often and wanted to get a little better than kbb "trade in" value out of the car. An 04 already has the huge depreciation yet is probably still on warranty if you get the right one.

kdhspyder

Likewise, many owners of the 2007 Camry didn't fare well on the roll of the dice.

Correction: '... a few owners...' a vocal few to be sure but with 150,000 new '07's on the road the reports of problems are few and far between.

kdshapiro

These forums can be tough to navigate.

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.ef0a892/5676

Try posting your question in the above forum. Do your research and don't assume Infiniti is problem free.

kdhspyder

A couple of factors to weigh, premium price for hybrid (even after tax credit, which I heard is reducing in Sept) and the eventual replacement of the batteries. I don't know the life of the batteries or their replacement cost. But if they are supposed to be good for 8 yrs, what do you think the resale value would be on a 6 year old model? How much will it cost to replace the batteries; $500, $1,000, $2,000 or more?

There is so much misinformation hereabove it's suprising for one so involved in these forums. Was there any research done before posting?

'XLE' version of the hybrid Camry is $1000 less than the XLE version of the ICE Camry. Hybrid Premium?

This is before the $2600 Federal credit ( through 9-30 ); $1300 credit from 10-1 to 3-31-07. This is also separate from any state tax advantages which can be huge ( with no expiration ).

'I don't know the life of the batteries...' It's in many places here at Edmunds and on the net you will find that. 'The batteries are expected to last the life of the vehicle' Expect 200K -300K miles as with most Toyota's and Honda's. Both the DOE and Toyota have tested them in excess of 150,000 miles with no deterioration at all in performance.

Toyota has never has to replace a failed battery in 6+ years here.

How much will it cost to replace the batteries; $500, $1,000, $2,000 or more? If at the high end, who would want to buy a 6 year old car that would require thousands of $ to keep running in a couple of years? This isn't like a warranty running out in 3 or 10 years. It's a maintence item like brake pads wearing out.

There is zero maintenance on the hybrid system for the life of the vehicle save a coolant flush each 60,000 miles.

The resale value of hybrids is well above the 'equivalent' ICE vehicle.

Even with today's high fuel costs, most things I've read say that a hybrid will not save most people money over a 6 year or so period.

And if you start out on the plus side and begin saving money from day one?

Research please.. it appears that someone mentioned a few 'well-known truths' over the water cooler that were taken as gospel. Personal research is always better.

Need specific references for the above?

ace35

Go with the G35, comparable handling to bmw for less $$$, better engine (VQ), better reliability (japanese vs german), larger vehicle which = More interior room. Reclining rear seats also.

mfletou1

kdh...

I tried my best to refute some of these claims, but you did a fantastic job. People at least should know the facts. All hybrids are not created equal, and the financial situation is not black and white. Just because somebody read a Consumer Reports 3 months ago that hybrids may not pay for themselves doesn't mean the Toyota Camry Hybrid does not.

By the way, this month's Motor Trend contains a "10 Most Wanted" list where each editor picks what they think is the best vehicle on the market. The Camry Hybrid is one of the 10.

kdshapiro

Actually not comparable handling. 3 series is the benchmark, but check out the segment. Lots of great and new cars coming down the pike.

kdshapiro

"Need specific references for the above?"

Yes, please provide references for the battery life and replacement cost.

Everything I've read places useful battery life at 4-5years, given the fact they are lithium-ion batteries. Being operational after 4 years is not the same as operating at top efficiency after 4 years.