Luxury Lounge

lexusguy

I guess I just have a very low opinion of all hybrids, not just the LS. None of them make sense to me.

The Prius, and to a lesser extent the Camry hybrid sort of work like they are supposed to. The Accord Hybrid, and all of the Lexus hybrids though are total failures. The "peformance hybrid" idea is so totally flawed that it can never work. You can't make a car faster or handle better by adding hundreds and hundreds of pounds, with very little return from a secondary motor system which quickly runs out of power. Since these cars also return little to no fuel economy benefits, what's the point? A supercharger by comparison doesn't run out of "juice", and adds no significant weight.

A supercharged version of the Lexus 4.6L could easily get into the 500hp league.

drfill

My point is who is comparing a 600h to V8 sedans? When did that happen? Who made that decision? :confuse:

If you're arguing the 600h isn't a value compared to V8 sedans, that's fine, but if you are after maximum value, you still will leave a Lexus store in an LS.

Germans don't offer value. That's not their game.

Lexus is trying to get in front of the curve with this car. NOt just powerful, not just luxurious, but very efficient, and environment-friendly as well. And it is a relative value compared to a $140k S600. That's Lexus' spin. Which is fine.

The S600 is tremendously faster, much faster than a 600h. That's fine.

Some will see a 600h and see a balance of virtues. Some will look at a S600 and see all-conquering power, damn the gas bill!

They are probably both right.

Lexus' job is to get the 600h into that comparison. Whether they succeed or not is up to us all.

My real problem with the car is the AWD, which doesn't help, but hurt it's case.

A perfect 600h would do 0-60 in 4.9, and get 25MPG, and with AWD, you can't possibly have both. You may get neither! :mad:

And it raises the question: Why is it not available on the 460, but standard on the 600h?

Add AWD in 2010, when the car needs an update, and make it optional on both, since everybody in America doesn't need AWD. I live down south. What do I need AWD for? What does California need AWD for?

DrFill

designman

My point is who is comparing a 600h to V8 sedans? When did that happen? Who made that decision?

I did, because when you look at the specs AS REPORTED BY EDMUNDS you can't help but come to any other conclusion.

If you're arguing the 600h isn't a value compared to V8 sedans, that's fine, but if you are after maximum value, you still will leave a Lexus store in an LS.

I totally agree, and I think it is possible that Lexus is making the 600h a diversionary tactic, a shill to sell more 460s in the event that the hybrid doesn't sell. It's a built-in hedge, and I guess I have to salute them for it.

Some will see a 600h and see a balance of virtues. Some will look at a S600 and see all-conquering power, damn the gas bill!

Lexus' job is to get the 600h into that comparison.

They've already succeeded up to this point. Every review will have the S600 and 600h mentioned like bacon and eggs in spite of the fact that they don't belong together. If it was called the 460h, you'd never hear it mentioned in the same review or same sentence. This is where the media and everyone else buy into the hype.

I live down south. What do I need AWD for? What does California need AWD for?

I live in the frozen Northeast, 20 miles from our darling Mets, and I'm still trying to figure why I need AWD. The only thing I conclude is that I am spared the bother of having to change over to snow tires when December rolls around. An LS 460 on snows will do just fine.

(BTW, I was born in the Bronx, 6 miles from the center of the Earth, so don't think for one minute that I don't like the other guys too. It just so happens that I did college time in Queens so, between this and Willie Randolph, my allegiance is split.)

;-)

drfill

First Ting: Looks like you may be the only one who thinks the 600h belongs with V8s, not V12. As you said, the S600 (as well as the S8 and S600) are linked to the 600h, and that was the idea. Mission accomplished!

#2: Lexus will sell it. And the 460. Without giving them away.

That's all they care about. It may not be the be-all-end-all, but it'll get 'er done. Or it'll get a very expensive LS sold.

As Jack Nicholson said : "Either way, I don't give a D$#@....." :P

DrFill

tagman

Doc, It's obviously eating you alive that this LS600hL is a bust. There might be only 2000 guys out there in a year's time that don't know better and actually buy one. Big f'n deal.

The car is a bust. Total waste. A joke.

TagMan

lexusguy

First Ting: Looks like you may be the only one who thinks the 600h belongs with V8s, not V12.

The problem is 0-60 in the high 5s is very much V8 performance, not the "V12 like" that Lexus promised. The horsepower is higher than the German 8s (at least as long as the electric boost lasts) but the car is no faster than the S550 or 750. The next generation of German 12s will most likely be in the 550-600hp range, and LS600 can't compete with that. The "efficient" LS is the standard car.

syswei

Thanks for the link. If the info holds up then the LS600hL is a disaster and an embarassment for Lexus. Fortunately I hadn't had my heart set on one, otherwise I'd be heartbroken now. A 460L AWD will be on the possibilities list (along with the S and maybe A8), once Lexus gets around to producing one.

I don't understand how Lexus managed to add 900 lbs, when with the GS the hybrid weight gain is more like half that. Some engineering achievement!

syswei

Toyota Motor Corp. surpassed General Motors Corp. in quarterly sales for the first time, making it the world's biggest auto maker.

Toyota sold 2.348 million vehicles world-wide in the January to March period, topping the 2.26 million vehicles that GM sold in the same three-month period. GM has been the world's No. 1 auto maker for more than 70 years.

While the sales figures released Tuesday are only quarterly results, they represent the first time Toyota has surpassed GM in global sales. Analysts say it is just a matter of time before the Japanese auto maker surpasses GM in its annual figures.

--WSJ

drfill

The car is a bust if it doesn't sell 2000 units. Or if it doesn't facilitate other Lexus LS sales.

It will do both. Easily.

If you WANT TO call it a bust, that's fine. That's a hard sell, doh. :confuse:

DrFill

drfill

The current BMW has the same HP as the Lexus, so Lexus can sell V12 power.

Mercedes sells HP and speed. Lexus can sell an environemnt-friendly AWD car with V12 power and V6 economy.

They both will sell.

DrFill

tagman

I'm accepting on circumstances here that the LS600hL is a marketing ploy, and I accept that possibility out of respect for Lexus. If not, then they've been caught with their shorts down... and I must admit that I have a suspicion that they have. The original hype on this car led me to expect more... more power and more fuel efficiency.

The V-8 has only 9 more HP than its counterpart, and strapping on all that FAT, has done nothing but make the entire system LESS efficient, not more. It's SLOWER than the regular model, for goodness sake.

You can call it successful because it will sell 2000 units? Go ahead. I believe that Lexus knows darned well that the future of this car had better be an improvement in terms of power and efficiency, as well as trunk space.

This is a limited-release of a prototype, at best, and Lexus is still at the drawing board.

Call it a marketing ploy, attention-grabber? OK, fine. if that makes you happy, go right ahead. At least you and Lexus can save face with that. That way, the car doesn't have to stand on its own laurels... it only has to grab attention, even if it's a letdown... which it is, without a doubt.

Anyway, I expect the future will likely bring us all the REAL car this one should have been all along.

At the present, the current LS600hL will bring us a SLOWER car that uses MORE gas and sacrifies the trunk space to do so, all at a significantly higher price tag. What a deal. :sick:

TagMan

tagman

Mercedes sells HP and speed. Lexus can sell an environemnt-friendly AWD car with V12 power and V6 economy.

V-12 power?. Gosh, I guess that makes the LS460 a V12, too?... cause it's FASTER than the LS600hL!!!

V-6 economy? Gosh, The LS600hL's 20 highway MPG is WORSE than the LS460L by a HUGE amount. That must make the LS460 a 4-cylinder!!!

The LS600hL is a specification failure. It's an LS460L loaded up with 887 pounds of extra technological FAT that DESTROYS and COUNTERACTS it's own intention. It's absurd. Sorry, Doc. :lemon:

TagMan

houdini1

OK, I agree that the Prius and the Camry Hybrid perform like they are supposed to. However, it will take you a long time to recover the initial costs if you are at all interested in the economics of the deal and not just being green.

tagman

houdini,

The Prius has no standard ICE counterpart, and the economics of the car are OK. The Camry is marginal. The rest of the hybrid models out there have a lot of explaining to do. The only other model that mathematically adds up OK is the Honda Civic Hybrid. But, for the most part, The Prius essentially sets the standard for what a hybrid SHOULD be.

You and I are betting on the diesels, of course. And we will have our proof very soon, my friend.

TagMan

drfill

and that couldn't be further from the truth. :confuse:

Take a look at this page, scroll down under fuel economy observed, and see if you find any similarities:
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=109710/pageNumber=12

The 760iL has the same HP rating, so the Lexus does offer V12 power. Please explain where they have deceived anyone.

And the car cost less than any V10-12 luxury sedan, and is 30% minimum more efficient, so it is a value as well, if you look at it that way.

I really want to know what the problem is. You seem mad at Lexus, and want to kill the car, but can't articulate why, or how.

In a earlier post, you mentioned something about seeing the car for what it is. It IS more powerful than any LS. IT IS more expensive. IT IS as efficient as a V6 sedan. IT IS as power as a V12 sedan. IT IS more efficient than any premium German luxury sedan. IT IS the least expensive car in the class.

If these are FACTS, please enlighten me. I really want to know where the problem is.

You seem to want to say that it is a poor value, but anything against a 460 is. That doesn't mean this car isn't desirable, or is a poor value. It just doesn't play that card as well as the 460 does. That's all. :confuse:

DrFill

tagman

I am not spinning anything. My gosh. I had always posted that I expected the LS600hL to set new world standards for a HELC. However, I cautioned lj, cyclone4, and others that the price tag for the car might be beyond it's true value, but that was to be seen. Now it clearly is not worth it's price tag, especially when the LS460L is there to be had at a much better price.

As it turns out, this car, WHEN COMPARED TO ITS BROTHER, THE LS460L, is really not a better car. That is not my spin. And YES, you are darned right that I am disappointed in this car. This LS600hL SHOULD have been a technological masterpiece, and as it turned out, it is NOTHING more than a bunch of marketing BS.

You will NEVER get me to see how the LS460L isn't a much more intelligent decision, at this point in time.

Again, I will point out the facts here, no spin from me. The LS600hL gets WORSE mileage than the LS460L. The LS600hL accellerates SLOWER than the LS460L. The LS600hL trunk space is about 35% SMALLER than the LS460L trunk space. Due to it's extra FAT, the LS600hL is LESS efficient than the LS460L. And to get this LESS fuel-efficient, SLOWER LS600hL with its SMALLER trunk, you have to pay a lot MORE money, and wait on a list to get it.

Give me a break. Those are the FACTS, not my spin. And YES, I am quite disappointed with Lexus for all the hype, and then delivering THIS. Pitiful. :lemon:

They should have postponed the car until they REALLY had it worked out.

TagMan

ljflx

However, I cautioned lj, cyclone4, and others that the price tag for the car might be beyond it's true value, but that was to be seen. Now it clearly is not worth it's price tag, especially when the LS460L is there to be had at a much better price.

Tag, I'm surprised at you here. You do come across as if this is a mission and too much emphasis is on one lone review - of a preproduction car no less. Personally I see the car being successful. If you're right the car will be a one year hit ala many one time hit songs and then you never hear of the artist again. If I'm right the car is around for many future years.

As for the comment above I can make the same argument about value of an S600 vs an S550 or a BMW 760 vs a 750. Value is meaningless at that level and if you are leasing financial risk is minimal on any car that expensive. At those pricepoints it's about what one wants to say about their car and whether the car gives them something exclusive to say. Those who buy the LS600HL will have plenty of positive and exclusive things to say. That's all that matters. It's only a few hardened car geeks that will point up the ngatives and those negatives will be purely automotive based. Note that even the Edmunds reviewer already has recognized the car will sell out easily and as I noted the car is already into year 2 sales at my place. I'm sure that reviewer sampled the sales orders when he made that comment.

I'm not saying what you're implying is wrong as I also expected the better gas mileage and all along I've thouught of V12 as 430+ HP and that is what the car has always promised. So they are only really striking out on gas mileage and those promises may have been based on 2007 EPA calcs anyway. My feeling is your view is totally performance based (again on a pre-prod car) and most buyers will not look to that as the reason for buying or not buying the car.

tagman

Surprised? OK, I can live with that.

Look, this car SHOULD have offered a SIGNIFICANT performance and/or fuel-efficiency leap over the LS460L. It does NEITHER.

What's it's purpose? The only real difference is AWD. The rest is just not there.

I feel like Lexus really let everyone down on this, lj.

I do believe that the next generations will likely be better, and then I'll be less harsh on the car.

TagMan

drfill

The S550 is even more of a value vs. the S600.

How much demand is there for V12s anyway?

C&D tested the 600h for June, and got to 60 in 5.4, from what I understand. That's almost a full second faster than the pre-production LS460 they tested.

You like to quote C&D as gospel, now that they are down on the LS.

The next S550 will be better than this car. Now I can't buy a S550 for 5 years? I gotta drive a Hyundai until the perfect car is made?

DrFill

tagman

The S550 is even more of a value vs. the S600.

The S600 is FASTER!... than its siblings
The LS600hL is NOT faster!... than its siblings.

I think we should stop it already Doc. We do NOT agree. Let's leave it at that.

TagMan

volvomax

Here is the only thing that Hybrids do: They allow the tree huggers to consume conspicuously.

NO Hybrid can make the case that it will save you fuel, because in most cases the transaction cost difference between a hybrid and its gas cousin will eat up your fuel savings.
Plus, as you have seen the heavier the Hybrid the less fuel savings in the first place.
Lexus is just going for marketing here.

blkhemi

Not the least bit shocking, Tag I have to agree with you on the 600hL.

Am I the only one to remember when me, Merc, and yourself said that the 600h would end up this way, way back when the LS460 was first concieved?

The truth of the matter is that you can't defy the laws of science. A nearly 5k pound car will not return the early-promised near 30mpg with the current technology that is used, hybrid or no.

The LS, as I've mentioned before, is a fine ride. Lexus should've built atop that, not rush out a uber-hybrid to assure it's first existence in it's class only to find out that it is not the Farrah Faucet we lusted for on Charlie's Angels, but the mid 80's Roseanne Barr.

This car has proven to be not much more efficient than the LS460, not faster, steals more room(cargo), has unknown reliablility and in return you get to flatten your wallet even more for what some on this forum refer to as "status".

And yes, since the LS600 crossed that $100k threshold, so only rightfully so should it be compared to the A8L W12's, XJ Super V8 Porfollio, 760Li, S600's. And in light of these magnificent cars, the cars that the LS600's performance was promised to mirror, the LS fails. Miserably. Sure it gets a couple of ticks better at the pump, but in real world commuting, not much. And as for performance, all but the BMW are sub 5 second cars:

S600- 4.2 secs
XJ- 4.9 secs
W12- 4.8 secs

So as we can see, I'm not the least bit adored with the latest effort from Lexus. Wonder does this stop the train on the "Road to Perfection"?

drfill

One test, of pre-production model, doesn't spell doom. I was hoping you guys would not repeat history, as you also cast away the LS460, and now you are forced to sing it's praises.

If the car is only worth buying if it clears 5 seconds, than it isn't a big time car.

With a little research, you will see a 438HP car that gets THE SAME economy and BETTER emissions than any V6 family sedan, not to mention 6-cylinder AWD luxury sedans, which Lexus mentions in it's press release.

The car is THE MOST efficient, THE MOST technologically advanced, and THE MOST environemnt-friendly full-sized luxury sedan sold in America. That is enough to sell many copies right thur!

Many here are willing to trade economy for more power. That's fine. That doesn't mean the 600h is any lesser of a car. Is it finding the balance?

Would you rather be 20% faster, or 35-40% more efficient? The Germans sell power. Lexus sells efficiency.

Is it a matter of timing? Is Lexus' timing spot on (again)? Do the wealthy want just power, or a car that does every well? Maybe the 600h is a V12 value, just like the LS460 is a V8 value?

Decisions. Decisions.

Lexus is delivering on what it promised. You haven't been able to refute that.

Whether you like that is another story......

C&D, allegedly, got 0-60 in 5.4 in their June issue. Lexus claims 5.5. Is that much speed, with 20 MPG worth turning your nose up at? I don't think so. :shades:

DrFill

tagman

Tag I have to agree with you on the 600hL.

Always good to get your post here. Your opinion comes with years of good credibility.

There is absolute no doubt that the LS600hL doesn't live up to its billing. A significant letdown.

Unless they introduce its replacement very soon, someone else is going to seize the opportunity that Lexus itself has created.

I understand that Porsche is considering an alternative powertrain for the upcoming Panamera... and while BMW and Mercedes already have vehicles that smoke the current LS600hL, I imagine that they are at work to raise the bar even further.

Lexus's stumble here could very possibly cost them in the long run.

BTW, has your weather cleared enough to get some news from you about your new XKR? I've been waiting patiently for some exciting posts about one of your "drives".

TagMan

tagman

you also cast away the LS460, and now you are forced to sing it's praises.

Only by comparison, Doc. It's quite easy for anyone to see, BTW. Edmunds had no problem with this one... so obvious.

Lexus is delivering on what it promised. You haven't been able to refute that.

Could be, Doc, that Lexus promised us a car that would NOT perform better than the LS460L. I admit that I expected it to be better than the 460. I never thought it would be a whole lot better, and that's why I was concerned about ljflx and cyclone4 purchasing the 600.

And I NEVER thought that 35% of the trunk would be sacrificed in order to achieve WORSE fuel efficiency than the LS460L, and similar, if not WORSE, accelleration than the LS460L.

But if you say that Lexus promised us that the LS600hL would be WORSE than the LS460L, then I'll just have to take your word for it... cause I don't remember it that way.

Well...Lexus did promise the world a huge surprise... and THAT did happen. The world is definately surprised that the LS600hL performs WORSE than the LS460L in BOTH fuel efficiency AND in acceleration.

Guess you are right, Doc. :P

TagMan

drfill

The same message I have for our President:

"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

DrFill

tagman

"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

Well said, Doc.

Well, then, let's hope that Lexus learns from this, and doesn't repeat this model for all too long. I do so much hope that their "pursuit" will bring us all a genuine and REAL cool LS600hL in the future, not more of this hype.

TagMan

brightness04

I feel like Lexus really let everyone down on this

How can everyone be let down when only a few posts back it was proclaimed that the ever so wise detractors knew years back that it would work out exactly like the worst scenario? Let's have a just a wee little logical consistency here, please.

The mileage number quoted for LS600 is using 2008 method, which as we all know is different from the 2007 method; roughly 20% difference according to most, and 30+% for hybrids according to some. The MB S600 gets 12mpg for city using 2007 method; that translates to 9-10mpg using 2008 method. The difference in a 20k-mile year city limo service is 1200 gallons of premium gas, or $4-5000 each year! The price difference between an LS600 vs a loaded LS460 with all the options made standard in an LS600 is only $5-8k. Chalk $3k of that down for AWD, and we are left with $2-5k difference. That difference is overcome within a couple years in fuel cost between the hybrid and a V12 like S600 (unless you think Lexus engineering would be inherently superior to MB, and therefore would have produced far more efficient V12). This particular hybrid, for once, actually makes economic sense for being a hybrid instead of a V12. What's more, the S600 is not even AWD, which if it had been like the LS600 would ding off another 1-2mpg.

blkhemi

"...has your weather cleared enough.."

Last week snow flurries. This week, today, 73 and plenty of sun.

Who has time to be in court. I've got a convertible just waiting to be driven. Before I wrote this post, I was out in the garage dusting and wiping off that "city" grime from being there all day. Sweet ride.

BTW: My wife is about ready to retire the Jeep Commander and is ready to move up to the mid/high-lux SUV crowd. We tested the MDX yesterday.

I will have to admit, once you get pass the irritating letdown in details(huge plasticky grille, choice of interior materials, and the scatter of buttons on the dash), there is plenty to like here.

It is definetely built for women with it's lowish step in height, comfy seats, and all-around utility.

But $50K is hard to justify for it. Yes the performance is there, gobs of it as a matter of fact, but there is still much to desire for.

Next up are the Land Rover LR3 and Range Rover HSE Supercharged on Friday. She immediately swiped the XC90 V8(way to little luxury for the price), BMW X5(no space for her precious diamond briefcases and her girlfriends), and Lexus GX470(don't know why she doesn't like it, altho she has said it appears big and bulky, which it does with it's tall and wide stance) off of the list, helped by reading the C&D article last month.

The SRX V8 AWD, Escalade, and ML remain in the mix, especially since she is definetely an MB girl. I'll keep you posted.

blkhemi

"Lexus is delivering on what it promised.."

So in the same way it delivered with the GS450h? V8 performance with near 4 cyl. fuel consumption? Is this why they we're slashing the prices by 5 grand here in NY?

There is a gap between what Lexus thinks and what is reality.

Why do they bill their hybrids as performance vehicles? The RX400h is handidly spanked by its "lesser" counterpart, and the fuel econ isn't exactly spectacular. And know we have the same with 600, and I'm sure a SWB 460 won't lose it's breath when running with it, may even do a bit better as it has 1000 pounds less baggage and will not rely on the batteries to be charged to repeat stellar 0-60

But on the reverse, why would build a V8 model car(GS430) only to have it outpaced by not one, but two 6 cylinder engines. Do we have to wonder why the Germans and one Japanese(Infiniti) company will continue to own this class?

This goes back to what I've said all along. Lexus(and Toyota) have some very talented people on the management team, but just as sure as there are smart ones, there have to be an equal amount of dim-wits there too. This sort of GM thinking will get them in trouble fairly quick.

tagman

How can everyone be let down when only a few posts back it was proclaimed that the ever so wise detractors knew years back that it would work out exactly like the worst scenario? Let's have a just a wee little logical consistency here, please.

WOW, Thank you for allowing the "ever so wise detractors" to represent EVERYONE!

Regardless of anyone's view, EVERYONE is let down and deprived of what SHOULD have been a significant leap beyond the LS460L.

I see that you are no longer arguing regarding the car itself, so you have reverted to arguing the semantics of posters remarks. Uh, oh.

The LS600hL is a bust. :lemon:

TagMan

syswei

The mileage number quoted for LS600 is using 2008 method, which as we all know is different from the 2007 method

A very interesting point. It isn't stated explicitly in the review, at least from what I saw, but if true it would make a very big difference, as you point out. And make the car pretty green, relative to its performance.

tagman

Your wife sounds like mine. Currently drives the MDX, and rejected many of the others. I think she might have been OK with the Escalade, but was tired of the great big SUV. Instead of the newest MDX (my wife's is an '06), I am now getting the impression that she likes my suggestion of switching over to the MB GL Vision BlueTec. It is supposed to arrive later this year!! It should be a terrific SUV, delivering lots of comfort, performance, as well as a REAL-life 24+++ MPG, which is unmatched in a large SUV. She puts on at least 20K - 25K miles a year!

Glad to hear the XKR is at least getting a little action.

TagMan

ljflx

So let's do the math here. They will sell 2000 of these with ease and that's equal to the big 3 German dogs combined and double Audi and BMW's big engines combined. And that is the measurement of failure?? I better go back to business school because I must have missed a lesson or two somewhere.

tagman

"The mileage number quoted for LS600 is using 2008 method, which as we all know is different from the 2007 method"

A very interesting point. It isn't stated explicitly in the review, at least from what I saw, but if true it would make a very big difference, as you point out. And make the car pretty green, relative to its performance.

By what kind of math? If the LS600hL is already a lock at 20 mpg highway, then we can expect the 27 highway mpg rating of the LS460L to diminish somewhat as it transfers to the '08 rating system. So, take 15%, just as an example, and you could then possibly reduce the highway mileage of the '08 LS460 to, say... 23 highway mpg. Even if that is true, which is to be seen, the LS600hL still gets WORSE mileage than the LS460L counterpart, and the LS460L does without all that 887 pounds of environmentally unfriendly material. Green? No way!! NO WAY!!

TagMan

tagman

It wouldn't matter if they sold 10,000!. The car is no better than the LS460L, unless you must have AWD. Most else about it is similar or worse than the LS460L... specifically fuel economy, acceleration, and trunk space.

Jumping to conclusions? Lexus jumped the gun by not postponing this car until they got it right. Shame on them... but as you point out, the mighty dollar is what it's about.

Hype, and more hype. Here's the latest hype from lexus... an eight-speed transmission in the regular LS, only built to beat the Mercedes 7-speed. Self-park that is a joke, but gets LOTS of attention, even on the OPRAH show!!! And now, THIS. A "hybrid" that actually doesn't perform better or deliver better fuel economy. Now that's a laugh... and hype.

TagMan

ljflx

But they couldn't sell 10,000 or 2,000 if the car is what you make it out to be. If you argue that folks are dumb and will buy anything then that argument works the same for expensive cars you love too.

This car promised the HP it gets. It promissed V6 gas mileage and likely gets it depending on what V6 you use as benchmarks. I'm getting 18.5mpg in the G and the folks I know in performance V6's are not getting 20mpg. The folks in non-performance V6 cars may get to 25+ but never was this car implied to be a non-performance V6 equalizer. In the end I thought the car would be more than it is from a mileage viewpoint but not much more and that was likely affected by my current view of EPA testing. How fast it is to 60 remains to be seen and I think you'll find it gets there faster than Edmunds says.

Lastly this car is not a $33K differential to an LS460L. It is about half that if you equip an LS460L the way this car is made standard. But in that case you still need to add things that would put another $5-8K onto the LS460L - if you had those options available. So we are talking $10K or less for this car vs a truly comparable LS460L just to keep the numbers - the real numbers - in perspective. That premium for that much more HP is a lot less than the German upcharges.

drfill

Let's calm down. Count to ten. Easy.

If you are disappointed, I'm sorry Lexus disappointed you. Apparently, you wanted sub-5 second times and another 5 MPG, and that wasn't in the cards.

Fortunately, those are not the defining features of the 600h, or any Lexus for that matter.

If this vehicle did nothing but got you to appreciate the abilities of the LS460 even more, that will work for me.

Calling the 600h a bust is.....not accurate. You're overstating your case thur.

Rome wasn't built in a day.

DrFill

brightness04

Don't forget the R-class. Its lease price is lower than ML despite having a higher MSPR. If buying is the only way you'd consider getting a car, then neither is as good a deal as the RX unless she absolutely needs the third row. In any case, IMHO, right now, leasing either an R or ML cost a lot less than paying cash for an RX anyway.

brightness04

WOW, Thank you for allowing the "ever so wise detractors" to represent EVERYONE!

"Everyone" certainly includes the detractors, no? The detractors are not people?

Regardless of anyone's view, EVERYONE is let down and deprived of what SHOULD have been a significant leap beyond the LS460L.

Not at all, see the substance of my previous post.

I see that you are no longer arguing regarding the car itself, so you have reverted to arguing the semantics of posters remarks. Uh, oh.

See my previous post for yourself. The bulk of the post was devoted to the solid numbers. You just chose to skip over the entire substantive disucssion but focus your effort on the semantics, as usual :shades:

brightness04

Come on, you were asserting the difference was 30+% only a few days ago (when lj suggested that the common wisdom was 20% difference between 2008 method vs. 2007 method), now you are arguing the difference is only 15%. What's more, city mileage is what really matters for these top dogs as they are usually found in city/heavy traffic limo/chauffer services.

What about the extra power, displacement/torque, and AWD? All that should have added a lot to gas consumption, but did not in the case of LS600. For crying out loud, there isn't even an AWD S600. So MB is offering zip for AWD top dog configuration.

drfill

As a former, maybe future, New Yauker, I feel your pain.

From Lexus' point of view, the RX400h was built and conceived before the mid-gen 350 engine was added, and was a significant step up in power from the RX330, and would get 4-5 MPG better than the gas engine, so lines were long for a while.

Now with the 350, it changes the equation, and isn't the value it once was, but the 400h is an unmitigated success, and is still moving to this day.

The GS sells 9 out of 10 cars as a V6, and Lexus can use that as a way to prevent cannibalization of the New LS460 by a 380HP GS460, and get some play with a GS Hybrid in it's place. Didn't work, but I see the logic behind it.

It's obvious that Hybrid tech, at this point in time, has it's limitations, and is better at economy enhancements.

Making the vehicle lighter, with more aluminum, less standard equipment (LS: AWD), lighter wheels, lighter glass, etc. will help a Hybrid do it's job better.

Lexus is learning on the job. Hybrid Toyotas are doing better than Hybrid Lexus. Lexus buyers (and engineers) may need to sacrifice features and weight to make Hybrids more applicable to heavier vehicles. :confuse:

DrFill

tagman

That post sounds more realistic to me. Why? because when you say Rome wasn't built in a day... by that I think we can agree that the TRUE goal of Lexus regarding this car did not really happen with this first rendition at all.

Yes, I expected MUCH better 0-60 times, to say the least.

Goodness, if Lexus came out with a press conference and told us all that they were building a super-hybrid luxury car that would top $100,000 but it would NOT deliver any significantly (if at all) better performance than the LS460L and would NOT deliver significantly (if at all) better fuel economy, and it would give up 35% of its trunk cargo capacity, and that the only REAL difference between it and the LS460L would be AWD... well, then the reporters would have a field day with THAT press release, and everyone would ask the obvious question... why not make AWD available on the LS460, if THAT is the only real significant difference... AND why bother building the hybrid at all?... as it seems quite pointless.

And it does at that!

TagMan

tagman

Making the vehicle lighter, with more aluminum, less standard equipment (LS: AWD), lighter wheels, lighter glass, etc. will help a Hybrid do it's job better.

OMG, Now yur tawkin, you NY'er you.

Yes, those are the kinds of innovations that belong on a super hybrid... at a minimum. Not 887 lbs. of FAT.

TagMan

esf

Is that a 500K? Those are supremely beautiful cars... they're probably worth more than $500K for a good one these days.

'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330

tagman

This car promised the HP it gets

I don't think so. The word on the street, and at the auto shows was closer to 500! I recall plenty of posts slinging around that number.

In the end I thought the car would be more than it is from a mileage viewpoint

Welcome to the club... you, me, cyclone4, Edmunds, and most everyone else. There are already plenty of posts suggesting the same disappointment.

How fast it is to 60 remains to be seen and I think you'll find it gets there faster than Edmunds says.

Maybe, but how much difference could there be? It's a done deal. Face it... the car will NOT be significantly faster than the LS460L, if at all.

But in that case you still need to add things that would put another $5-8K onto the LS460L - if you had those options available

According to the Edmunds review, almost every feature can be had on the LS460L, except for the inherent ones, such as AWD and the like.

Len, I am TRULY glad you got the LS460L... I say that with passion and truth. I know you all can tell the sincerity and intensity of my posts surrounding this LS600hL. There is no way that I will ever accept that this hybrid car from Lexus should have ended up with no significant performance or mileage advantage over the LS460 counterpart, given the diminished trunk and added fat. That fat and trunk sacrifice, as well as all the hype and the added price tag should have given us a car that was FASTER and more FUEL EFFICIENT by a significant margin that made us all say WOW!!

It never happened.

I lived on Maui when it so happened that one year people from all over the world traveled there to see a very rare solar eclipse that would only happen once in this lifetime. All these people were stationed on the roofs of the resorts, and paid incredible sums to witness the event. Literally thousands of expensive telescopes with special solar filters were set up everywhere, and could be used for a fee. Wow, the island was jammed and it was one huge party. As it turned out, a highly unusual weather disturbance clouded over the event, and the solar eclipse could not be seen. It was a much anticipated event that ended up as a non-event.

Such is the Lexus LS600hL. No solar eclipse.

TagMan

lexusguy

Is that a 500K? Those are supremely beautiful cars... they're probably worth more than $500K for a good one these days.

It's a 1937 540K. Truly one of the greatest cars ever made. I have a feeling one of those is worth a lot more than $500K.

brightness04

I'm really disappointed with the $140k S600 . . . because it can't even out auto-cross a $22k Miata! What a joke.

At 20+mpg for city driving using 2008 testing method, LS600HL delivers fuel economy comparable to a typical V6 just as promised . . . heck, it's better than a V6 as the MB S320L RWD only delivered 17/24 using the old inflated EPA method. The RWD S600 V12 only delivers 12mpg city/heavy traffic driving using the old 2007 EPA testing method, and will probably deliver 9-10mpg using the new 2008 testing method.

Sure, a bigger trunk would be nice, but seriously, is that what riders in those chauffered cars really care about? Why not ask about the loss of fold-down rear seats when upgrading from E to S?

Is there room for improvement? Of course, every piece of manufactured product has room for improvement. Has Lexus delivered a product as promised and technically far superior to its competitions? Asbsolutely!

brightness04

Very apt analogy indeed. The solar eclipse did actually take place . . . the ground-based viewers simply had their vision blocked by low clouds . . . talk about missing the forest for a leaf blocking the view :-)

AWD V12 performance at 21+mpg city fuel economy is very impressive indeed. The real gas savings it commands over a vehicle that delivers only 12mpg in a typical 12k-miles year is 430 gallons. To save 430 gallons again over the LS600HL in that same 12k-mile year, one would have to get a vehicle that delivers 85mpg! In other words, in terms of fuel consumption, the LS600HL is the exact midway point between the S600 guzzler and a super-duper fuel miser car that delivers 85 mpg! That's assuming S600 can even get 12mpg city using 2008 method. People counting mpg instead of gallons per 1000 miles are simply blinded by a numerical quirk.

lexusguy

I'm really disappointed with the $140k S600 . . . because it can't even out auto-cross a $22k Miata! What a joke.

That just doesn't make any sense. Here's the problem. Is the LS600hL faster than the regular LS? Well...no. Does it get better fuel economy? Well...no. What is the point of this car?