Midsize Sedans 2.0

1487

the media says it quite often. I just read an article about the new Malibu that makes that statement. You cant dominate any segment in which you dont sell the most vehicles last time I checked. Toyota loses the sales crown in midsize sedans by a sizable margin and Honda loses it by a large margin.

andres3

when you factor in the superior warranty you get with most other brands I think I am more than willing to take my chances with them.

You might be willing to roll the dice and take your chances with them, but most people are not willing.

I don't want to have to use a warranty, it's a huge hassle, even with the best of customer service.

1487

"Also, Camry's ride very nicely on the straitaways, very comfortable and luxury-like. Not everyone's cup of tea, but a lot of people like that when combined with reliability. "

Buicks do the same thing but I dont hear anyone calling them the greatest things since sliced bread. Its interesting that Toyotas benchmark cars drive much like the American cars of old that have been so criticized by import fans and the media. Toyota is building its own version of Buicks and people love them. If Buick builds a Buick people call it an old man's car.

1487

"You might be willing to roll the dice and take your chances with them, but most people are not willing.

I don't want to have to use a warranty, it's a huge hassle, even with the best of customer service. "

since most midsize buyers do not by an Accord I would beg to differ. The sales totals of all the cars you are deriding far exceeds Accord sales so I'm not sure where you get this idea that "most" buyers chose the Accord or Camry.

No one likes repairs on their car but I fail to see how its a huge hassle unless you live 50 miles from a dealership. I would say 90% of what goes wrong with todays cars can be fixed at an oil change, I'm not talking blown trannies or cracked axles. GM and some others give you a loaner car if needed. If my car causes me to need 2 more warranty repairs (at oil changes) than the average Honda and saves me $30 a month for 5 years I am willing to take that trade off.

BTW, its no roll of the dice. If you read CR's details instead of just looking at those silly circles you will see that CR tells you (only in the annual auto issue) that problem rates amongst US and Asian brands are VERY close and there isnt much difference between them. You are acting as if buying anything other than a Honda is going end up with you stranded on the side of the road. do you read Edmunds LT testing? They rarely take any vehicle in for a repair unless they are going in for scheduled maintenance. I think the last long term vehicle they had that left them stranded was a Pilot. Imagine that.

andres3

Toyota's ride nice and soft, whereas Buicks I've been in ride floaty, barge/boat like soft. I don't think Toyota's are as extreme as Buicks, but still provide the same level of comfort w/o losing some stability.

Also, the NEW V6 2008 Accord does have more than 40 HP over the Fusion. And it looks like it'll have an advantage in 2008 EPA ratings as well. That would be an example of superior engineering.

backy

So manufacturing capacity and number of stores have nothing to do with units sold? The fact that, for example, one company has capacity to turn out a maximum of, say, 150,000 units a year compared to another that can turn out 500,000 units a year with more than twice as many stores to sell them makes no difference? The higher-volume car must obviously be superior? Sorry, that doesn't make sense to me. Doesn't make sense to the folks at CR also, who rated the Passat turbo the top I4 family sedan and the Passat V6 the top V6 family sedan (tied with Accord). And they recommend the V6 based on its reliability and safety. The turbo I4 must be less reliable than the V6, since CR did not recommend the turbo.

andres3

If your lucky it'll be something you do at oil changes, but then who's going to pay overpriced oil changes at dealerships all the time when you could do it for half the price at Jiffy Lube?

Also, Edmunds LT tests are really just shorterm tests, and the vehicle aren't ever kept for much more than 12 months or 20,000 miles, right? If the LT tests were for like 5 years and 100,000 miles, that would be more telling.

bristol2

You cant dominate any segment in which you dont sell the most vehicles last time I checked.

So if it's not the Camry and it's not the Accord, what is the best selling mid-size sedan?

1487

"I chose the phrase 'ride quality' carefully because I do not believe that plush is a sign of great ride quality. Ride quality is a balance of confident road holding and handling without beating the occupants up. That may have some subjective elements to it. If you prefer a soft ride then that would explain a lot of your down-playing of the Accord's influence in this class. If you value saving money up front, again, that explains your perspective on the car. That's neither right or wrong, but you and I do not have the same goals with our vehicles obviously. "

ride quality and sportiness are not the same. I am not one for Lexus like isolation in a car. The Accord is neither the sportiest car in this class nor is it the smoothest riding. Its in the middle somewhere. It doesnt ride softer than the Lacrosse or camry and its not as sporty as the Fusion, Altima or Aura. Its right in the middle.

we need to separate the accord from being your fave car from it being the benchmark. Its obviously the former and obviosuly not the latter based on any objective evaluation. I think people who refuse to drive the competition are the first ones to put the accord on a pedastal. Until you drive the best of the rest you dont know whats out there and you go on believing Honda has a magic formula.

You cannot force a dealer to give you KBB value- trust me. My brother and I both traded in cars recently and it does not work. Dealers have a lot of explanations, some of which are legit, as to why they are not going to hand over what KBB says. My car was not in demand but my brother's car was and he still got a grand less than KBB value. Its not as easy as you make it seem. Furthermore different sites give different numbers so you have no solid reliably data. I saw values froom $6100-$8000 for my car online.

andres3

If I told VW today that I was willing to buy 400,000 base model Passats at 30K each, and forked over an advance of 25% of the money, I bet they would sign the contract and find/obtain/acquire the capacity to build them within the next year.

Capacity means nothing, if the demand is there, the supply will find a way.

1487

"So if it's not the Camry and it's not the Accord, what is the best selling mid-size sedan? "

let me try to be more explicit here. You have to look at TOTAL sales of all brands. Domination is what the big 3 have in the pickup market- they sell about 90% of the pickups in this country.

Accord and camry are best sellers but those cars do not dominate the midsize car market. They cant when GM sells more midsize cars than either Toyota or Honda. The G6, Malibu and Impala alone reprsented around 600k sales in 2006 which is more than Accord by a large margin and above Camry by a significant margin. Those two nameplates are very successful and top the sales charts, but their combined sales do not equal domination of the market. You can make the argument that civic and corolla dominate the compact market because those two vehicles single handedly make up a huge chunk of that overall market.

lilengineerboy

Another very significant mid-sized car is the Passat. It is generally rated near the top of the mid-sized class. But its sales volume is also quite small. Does that make it an unimportant car, an inferior car?

Yes, the answer is yes, the Passat is an inferior car when it comes to durability, reliability, and dependability. If it was as "good" as the Camry and Accord in those areas, then it would sell just as much (or right in between) the Camry and Accord (provided they don't raise the pricing)

Given the number of 10-15 year old VWs I see cruising around in the midwest, and the number of 20+ year old VWs on the west coast, I would say their durability is fine.
I would be more concerned with the durability of a contemporary BMW with so few maintenance requirements.

bristol2

we need to separate the accord from being your fave car from it being the benchmark. Its obviously the former and obviously not the latter based on any objective evaluation. I think people who refuse to drive the competition are the first ones to put the accord on a pedastal.

Just so we're clear, when I bought my car in '06 I cross-shopped Fusion/ Milan/ Accord/ Mazda 6/ used MB C-class/ used BMW 3-series.
I went with the Accord with leather, v6 and 6-speed manual because none of the other vehicles had a combination of reliability, manual, v6, cost and mpg that the Accord put into one vehicle. I did not cross-shop Camry (or Buick for that matter) because I don't want that handling and manuals do not come with leather.

You can't force a dealer to give you kbb, but you can go to another dealer.

lilengineerboy

If your lucky it'll be something you do at oil changes, but then who's going to pay overpriced oil changes at dealerships all the time when you could do it for half the price at Jiffy Lube?

Jiffy Lube oil change - $32
Dunning Subaru oil change - $23

4qts 5w30

1487

"Toyota's ride nice and soft, whereas Buicks I've been in ride floaty, barge/boat like soft. I don't think Toyota's are as extreme as Buicks, but still provide the same level of comfort w/o losing some stability. "

You havent been in recent Buicks. The lacrosse is no more floaty than a Camry or Pruis. The models with the firmer suspension are likely more firm than camry. Same goes for Lucerne- only the base suspension model offers a "traditional" Toyota soft ride.

"Also, the NEW V6 2008 Accord does have more than 40 HP over the Fusion. And it looks like it'll have an advantage in 2008 EPA ratings as well. That would be an example of superior engineering. "

Accord has better powertrain than Fusion and it should considering its $2k+ price premium over Fusion. The new accord actually does have close to class leading V6 mileage which is good since the current car is just midpack.

When it comes to I-4 mileage the new Accord is just on par with camry and GM models. The malibu with I-4 and 6 speed should slightly exceed accord I-4's mileage.

bristol2

You have to look at TOTAL sales of all brands

Why do I have to look at the total sales of all brands?

If I want to know what the top selling mid-size sedan is, I want to know what the top selling mid size sedan is.

It is irrelevant that between 3 different vehicles, GM has more sales than Toyota has in 1 vehicle.

1487

"You can't force a dealer to give you kbb, but you can go to another dealer. "

the market not the dealer determines ultimate value of car. My brother got a quote from another dealer that was almost exaclty what the first offered.

Unless you have extensive experience getting KBB values with no fuss from the dealer I'm not sure why you are arguing this point. Dealers know about the internet and they are not going around handing out checks for KBB values with no questions asked.

"I went with the Accord with leather, v6 and 6-speed manual because none of the other vehicles had a combination of reliability, manual, v6, cost and mpg that the Accord put into one vehicle. "

well if you only wanted a 6 speed and V6 combo your options were limited to Altima, Accord and 6. As for reliability- I guess you plan to keep your car for 10 years because you may have to keep it that long to see any differnce in quality. I hear a lot of talk about the "inferior" quality of Accord competitors but I'm curious as to what proof we have of this beyond CR's little circles.

1487

"If I want to know what the top selling mid-size sedan is, I want to know what the top selling mid size sedan is.

It is irrelevant that between 3 different vehicles, GM has more sales than Toyota has in 1 vehicle. "

Let me remind you the question was about Toyota and Honda dominating the midsized market. Not best sellers. The media (and you apparently) use top sellers and marketshare dominance as if they are interchangable when they are not in this case. The companies with smaller share of any segment cannot be considered the dominant players in that segment. Its pretty simple.

urnews

Hopefully the 2009 fusion will address that car's weaknesses.

What weaknesses?

1487

"Also, Edmunds LT tests are really just shorterm tests, and the vehicle aren't ever kept for much more than 12 months or 20,000 miles, right? If the LT tests were for like 5 years and 100,000 miles, that would be more telling. "

you and I both know its not realistic for publications to do 5 year tests. Most LT tests in magazines cover between 30k and 40k miles in a 12-18 month period. Sorry but that is plenty of time to go wrong although the whole "let see what happens after 100k miles" is a typical cop out answer amongst people who wont accept the quality gap is shrinking.

I dont keep many cars for over 100k miles so to me its not even a big deal and I'm going to avoid a model because it might only be trouble free for the first 75k miles of ownership. I read that people keep their cars 6 or 7 years on average. Most people are barely making it to 100k miles before trading.

you are making a lot of statements and accusations but I see no proof to back up your claims that anyone who buys a brand other than Honda or Toyota is taking a major risk. Do you have any information about major engine or tranny or electrical issues at other brands? Since Chrysler offers a lifetime powertrain warranty I would say thats a good sign they feel their cars can go the distance. any excuses for that?

where's Honda's lifetime powertrain warranty? where is Honda's roadside assistance? And dont say "they dont need it since they dont break" because it offers assistance for more than just mechanical failures. BTW, you better hope your Honda doesnt have a problem since the tow will come out of your pocket.

andres3

Nobody pays more than the 19.99 coupon price at Jiffy Lube, those coupons are more common than, well...... Camry's and Accords.

1487

lack of V6 power, lack of stability, lack of manumatic, interior design/materials. This is all well documented in road tests.

akirby

well if you only wanted a 6 speed and V6 combo your options were limited to Altima, Accord and 6.

My 2006 Fusion has a V6 and 6 speed.

1487

I am speaking of manual trannies- the accord has no 6 speed auto.

bristol2

Your original comment:
You cant dominate any segment in which you dont sell the most vehicles last time I checked

I should have realized that what you were referring to was most vehicles with the same frame because Toyota and Honda do sell the most of their vehicles.

Again, I am not a domestic basher or a Japanophile. I would have happily bought domestic if they had impressed me as much when I was buying. Also, I have never had to accept less than KBB wholesale for any car I have traded (inc Saab, Isuzu, Jeep, Acura, Nissan and Infiniti- enough variety that I do not accept the idea that the dealer sets the standard).

I do think that the Accord and the Camry define the segment currently. Since more Camrys are sold than any other model and more Accords are sold than any other model except the Camry, I would describe them as dominant players.

Do you believe that manufacturers look to the G6 or the Impala for inspiration?

backy

Yes, I will bet that VW would love to sell you 400,000 base Passats at a big premium over MSRP. But whether they would be able to ramp up plant capacity within a year is questionable. Look at Toyota a few years ago. They had lots of hungry buyers waiting over a year for a Prius, and they were willing to spend MSRP or over to get them. Yet it took them a couple of years to ramp up more capacity. Why not deal with more realistic scenarios? Do you know anyone who will offer to buy 400,000 mid-sized family cars at a big premium over MSRP and pay a $3 billion advance (interest free, of course)? I don't.

andres3

What assistance would the average "not dumb" person need for roadside assisstance other than for mechanical failures (which we've established is unnecessary for Honda's)???

Nobody could handle living with a Chrysler POS car for more than a few years, so that's why they can offer a lifetime warranty which is really only a 3/36K warranty unless you meet about 45 specific conditions, requirements, catches, hooks, lines, and sinkers. So much fine print tells me they don't believe for a second their cars will go the distance.

Also, you should ask Chrysler where you should get your warranty service when they go bankrupt? Is there a secured account somewhere that may only be used to pay off warranty claims? Has this secured account been funded properly (10K per vehicle would be proper if you ask me for a Chrylser).

Have you received answers to these questions?

The average car buyer might only keep their car less than 6 years or 100K miles, but they should still care how it performs after they own it!!!! Why? because the 2nd owner will care! And that second owner cares because they are not going to pay for a junker. The amount the 2nd owner cares about how your car runs after 6 years or 100K miles affects your resale value DIRECTLY, which will greatly influence your bank account.

andres3

My example was an example, of how supply will meet demand, given enough sustained demand, or enough high dollar offers.

If VW didn't have the plant capacity, then they could buy or build new plants fast tracked, then start pumping out more Passats, all probably within 10 months. Or they could pay some other auto plant to retool to build Passats instead of Jettas, or even Passats instead of Audi's, or even pay Honda to start making Passats in Ohio..... Given enough money, all are possiblities.

akirby

I am speaking of manual trannies

Yeah, I know. I just hate it when people say 5 speed and 6 speed instead of manual.

1487

"I do think that the Accord and the Camry define the segment currently. Since more Camrys are sold than any other model and more Accords are sold than any other model except the Camry, I would describe them as dominant players. "

Let me try one more time. Accord and Camry are dominant nameplates in the segment. Toyota and Honda are not the dominant players in the midsize segment. TOyota is a strong second but GM is the leader in midsize car sales. Its great that the camry is the best selling car but at the end of the day all of GM's various models represent a sale for ONE company. all of the camrys sales represent a unit sold for ONE company. GM offers different styles and names to get sales why Toyota pushes one car for all buyers and thus Toyota can sell 400k of the same car.

I would be lying if I told you I thought that GM models its car after the camry. They may aim for camry reliability but thats about it. When it comes to syling and handling I would say GM is most definitely not trying to out Camry the camry. I dont think Chevy is too worried about the Impala since its going to rack up over 300k sales this year and it outsold the accord a few times this year. What would make you think other brands (including Nissan) wouldnt want the Impala's sales? Isnt it whipping the sonata, 6, Passat and Fusion in sales right now? There are only going to be three midsize cars that crack 300k sales this year and one is Impala so I'm not sure how you figure GM doesnt have a recipe for success with that car. The opinions of the press and import leaning domestic bashers is one thing, what the marketplace says is another. seeing as though Nissan and Hyundai are selling cars to rental agencies left and right I do get tired of the whole "impala is only doing well because of fleets" argument.

If sales are all you care about than the F150 is the best vehicle in the country, period. And the Silverado is the 2nd best. Their sales make the Camrys sales look modest.

andres3

so if Toyota buys GM then Toyota would be the dominant midsize manufacturer, but the Camry would STILL be the dominant mid-size car. At least for now....

1487

"Nobody could handle living with a Chrysler POS car for more than a few years, so that's why they can offer a lifetime warranty which is really only a 3/36K warranty unless you meet about 45 specific conditions, requirements, catches, hooks, lines, and sinkers."

that was one of the worst cop out excuses I've seen in a while. Anything but acknowlegde that Chrysler is standing behind their product. The powertrain is covered as long as you get the car checked every 5 years- its so simple anyone can do it. we can either base our evaluation of the warranty on what chrysler says in the fine print- or we can base it on your erroneous statement in the previous post that has no backing. There go those pesky facts again, funny how they ruin those rants of yours. If you think chrysler is going bankrupt I suggest you do some more research. I'm sure Jim Press took that job because he feels Chrysler is on the verge of collapse. Until recently Chrysler was responsible for the majority of the profits generated by DC because the Germans had made so many dumb decisions regarding the Smart car and other things. Chrysler was doing better than Mercedes in terms of profitability. I dont think Cerberus is in the business of taking over companies that are headed for bankruptcy.

roadside assistance is like AAA coverage. Check it out- everyone but Toyota and Honda have it. They will come out for flat tires, dead batteries, etc. Oh wait, Hondas never get either one.

bristol2

I do get tired of the whole "impala is only doing well because of fleets" argument.

Sorry you get tired of it but, just like resale, it is a quantifiable arguement.

If sales are all you care about than the F150 is the best vehicle in the country, period. And the Silverado is the 2nd best
No, they are the bench marks in the light-duty (and heavy-duty) truck segments. Additionally they are benchmarks for total vehicle sales.
Actually going by your perspective the GM twins are the best selling trucks because it's the leader with all the vehicles it brings to the sector.

It's pretty clear we disagree on the definition of a bench mark vehicle. I think the 'benchmark' is a vehicle that sets the standard in a segment, it's a combination of all the things which customers tend to buy for and has powerful influence on all competitors. I truly do not understand what you consider a benchmark to be.

You and I will have to disagree on what makes a leader in a particular segment. I understand that you consider sales by manufacturer in total to have more impact than sales per vehicle, I disagree with that. Fair enough.

lilengineerboy

What assistance would the average "not dumb" person need for roadside assisstance other than for mechanical failures (which we've established is unnecessary for Honda's)???

My experience to the contrary.

Nobody could handle living with a Chrysler POS car for more than a few years, so that's why they can offer a lifetime warranty which is really only a 3/36K warranty unless you meet about 45 specific conditions, requirements, catches, hooks, lines, and sinkers. So much fine print tells me they don't believe for a second their cars will go the distance.

Also, you should ask Chrysler where you should get your warranty service when they go bankrupt? Is there a secured account somewhere that may only be used to pay off warranty claims? Has this secured account been funded properly (10K per vehicle would be proper if you ask me for a Chrylser).

Have you received answers to these questions?

Hmm I wonder if they would pay the chiropractor for services for those that have a bad back from the chip they carry on their shoulders every day.

kdshapiro

I disagree, the quality of the materials in the more upscale versions of the Accord is better than some of the competitors.

m1miata

Take out the fleet sales and what do you have? Factor in profit per car, and what do you have? The Impala is a full sized car, is it not? Are you saying the total of all the Epsilon platform cars is greater than the sales of Camry? Guess that may be possible, with massive fleet sales and discounting. And they may be able to sell more cars than Accord. Whoopie, who cares. GM, Ford and Chrysler need profit -- real profit, and to reduce their debt load. Some help, near term, could come in the form of the Feds lowering rates. Someday this all changes. If rates ever hold to the higher numbers, those bonds are gonna get pretty darn pricey. Hope labor is willing to take serious cuts in wages and pay for their own health care, or domestics are in big trouble going forward. We have seen but the tip of the iceberg.

I see the term used again, " domestic bashers " in reference to the media opinions on cars, or those here on the forum. Time to wake up and face the music, the dreamland World is over. Domestic cars, like all the rest, must all compete and excel to win. This " mommy, everyone is calling me names, and those bullies are not being fair " is just all so much wasted time. You, "lead, follow, or get out of the way" and nothing more. No more excuses, as your dog did not eat your homework. No more, I will have it done tomorrow and it will be better.
Sorry but tomorrow is more like today, or is that yesterday for getting your act together to compete in the car World. GM is showing a few sparks, there is hope for fire, but is there a steady flame yet?
L

thegraduate

Are really REALLY making me tired. I just read through 55 messages (skipping several along the way). Let me know when we get out of this debate about market domination and trying to prove each other wrong, and get back to the vehicles' attributes with a little less drama. :sick:

Really, do the sales numbers etc.. really matter THAT much?

bristol2

Don't get me started Grad....

BTW, it's 'benchmarks' not 'sales numbers'...benchmarks.

thegraduate

And EVERYBODY has different benchmarks, because EVERYBODY will have a different desire for each characteristic of each car.

It's starting to smell like bloody dead horse around here...

kdshapiro

"where's Honda's lifetime powertrain warranty? where is Honda's roadside assistance? And dont say "they dont need it since they dont break" because it offers assistance for more than just mechanical failures. BTW, you better hope your Honda doesnt have a problem since the tow will come out of your pocket."

It's not that they don't break, it's that I don't care whether a car has a lifetime powertrain warranty. (They don't need it, because in general they don't break.)

m1miata

Jiffy Lube, isn't that Pensziol oil and filters? My first change was $34, I think it was, at Honda. Didn't break the bank to do so, but I have paid much less I'm a little cheap, ya know. L

thegraduate

I JUST got my oil changed in my '96 today at Wal-Mart. With oil & filter change, battery test, tire pressure/tread depth test (all of which I get the results of), a windshield wash and interior vacuum, and brand new wiper blades installed, I was out the door for $33 after taxes (the blades were $5.46). The oil change is $25.96 and includes everything but the blades.

For $39 at my dealership, I'd get fresh oil and filter, nothing else.

m1miata

AAA for towing. Great insurance company too!

As for warranty work, the local dealership can supply you with a car. It is not required though by warranty. There are all sorts of dealerships in the World, and over time you find the good, the bad and the plain ugly ones. I don't think they need to go to a lifetime warranty for powertrain. I would want to see any such warranties finest print. Overall, I would say the warranty provided by Honda could be improved however. Like any car I buy, if it sucks over the years, it is basically gone anyway. So if it becomes a dog for two to three years, by the time the warranty is nearing an end, I would be out of it anyway. All cars can have problems, and personally I think they should add to and adjust some things in the Honda warranty. Lifetime warranty??? Nahhh, sound like one of those too good to be true. A five year bumper to bumper is a good thing. L

backy

If there is no limit to sales, why don't Honda and Toyota ramp up to sell twice as many Accords and Camrys? Just click their fingers, and *poof*, over 400,000 more sales each per year. They have plenty of money, after all. Or they could pay VW to make cars in Brazil or Germany, or Hyundai to make cars in Alabama... the possibilities are endless.

m1miata

You can also get an oil change there for $16.85, I think it is -- the base service. Wonder what Pep Boys is charging. They use Purolator filters. Perhaps it is still Pennzoil for the oil? Anyway, couldn't hurt to have the dealerships record the changes while under warranty, and if they screw up, they replace the engine. Some dealers let you take your oil, or synthetic in and a filter of choice, and then charge you for the labor. I wonder how happy they are with that
L

kdshapiro

"Let me try one more time. Accord and Camry are dominant nameplates in the segment."

Let's say it this way. WRT to the vehicles only on this board Accord and Camry are the benchmark. With respect to all mid-size vehicles Accord and Camry are the benchmark. Although one can say GM sells more cars than Honda and Toyota, Accord and Camry garner the most sales in the entire segment. Does Pontiac sell more G6s' than Accords?

benderofbows

"No one likes repairs on their car but I fail to see how its a huge hassle unless you live 50 miles from a dealership. I would say 90% of what goes wrong with todays cars can be fixed at an oil change"

It wasn't just the need for repairs on my brand new 2004 $29k MSRP Ford, it was the general ownership experience that turned out to be a huge hassle.

Examples of me enjoying my new Ford...

- Wanting to back into a parking spot, I stop and shift into reverse, wait a second, then move from the brake to the gas. The engine revs freely, with no vehicular movement, and then BANG! It finally jolts into gear and off shoots backwards. The dealer puts a transmission additive in, which has little effect.

- I'm just crusing down the road with my foot on the gas. The engine is lazily turning 2,000 RPMs. Suddenly, the car in front starts slowing down, so I let off the gas, and BANG! the transmission jolts into neutral, feeling like I have just run something over. The dealer can't ever seem to replicate the problem.

- I wake up to go to work, get in the car and try to crank it. The starter chugs along, but the engine just won't catch. I try this several more times. I swear at it. I consider lighting it on fire. Instead, I wait a few minutes and try it again. It finally coughs back to life with a very rough idle. I keep my foot on the gas and wait a minute just in case. Again, the dealer can't find anything wrong. "There are no trouble codes in the computer." At least, each time this happens, I've got a few months before it happens again.

These are just three examples... Sure, it was rated average in CR, and probably only has a couple more problems than a top-rated car; but living with it every day was a pain- and forget being fixed at oil changes, the dealer couldn't ever fix it, period!

Now I drive a new Honda, and (knock on wood) it has no such quality issues. I bought the Honda partly because it has less of a chance of ever being such a nusiance to own.

jimlockey

Toyota & GM gives you guys what they want you to have.

Ford is dead, but they don't know it yet.

The oil companies just keep getting richer and nobody can unseat a member of congress and life goes on.

captain2

What weaknesses?
you have goota be kidding - ALL these cars as well as ALL others have weaknesses. Even the generally acknowledged leaders can be rightfully cited for higher initial costs, hard to cope with dealers, somewhat subjective styling evaluations etc. The Fusion(and to a lesser extent the 6)? What is under the hoods,4 and 6 cylinder, obviously the biggest points. If they are good enough for you is not the point, they do not measure up to what can be found in several of these cars from either a HP or FE standpoint. In my own case, for example, Ford could reduce the price of a V6 Fusion to $10k and I would still pay the extra $15k or so for what is in a Camcordima (or even a Sonata) - such is the value I put on drivetrain sophistication (or lack of it).What you personally 'value' may be different, which of course is fine - but ALL these cars have quantifiable weaknesses

thegraduate

Well the cheapest service didn't have a price beside it; but I could really stand to have new blades and my car vacuumed.

Wal-Mart uses a Fram filter and Castrol.