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I did send a letter to Honda demanding a recall, and all they told me was "we'll take it into consideration". Obviously, Honda has closed the file on this problem until burning CR-Vs become more prevalent.
I'm currently at 6200 miles on my 2004 CR-V and I'm soon due up for an oil change. I guess I do have to prepare for the worst. I normally get my oil changed at Jiffy Lube, but I will be at the dealership for this one. That would be the only way I can hold Honda liable if my car does flare up.
No matter how much Honda defenders defend Honda on this one, a fact is a fact. 2003 and 2004 Honda CR-Vs are MUCH MORE LIKELY to catch on fire following an oil change than any other Honda model and most other car models on the road.
While all the Honda's i've owned over the years have been flawless to the last mile, this one has been VERY UNHONDA LIKE from mile one.
The problems posted on this site have actually helped me a bit especially with the "pull to the right issue". I thought it was just another defect in my car and didnt realize it was "normal".
I also own a RAV 4 (2003) and do have to say that car is a pleasure. ISELLHONDA asked what other car would I have bought instead of the CRV if I knew about these problems.. Highlander most likely!
Do not know how many CR-V will be sold if Honda put a warning of possible engine fire after oil change (if it is done not properly) on their newspaper ads or inform customers when they purchase?
As one member said on this board, no matter what percentage of the fire, if it happen on your car, the percentage is HUGE.
I chose the CR-V. 17,500 miles and no smoke yet. No rattles either...
As far as brands go, I've used FRAM, Pennzoil, and Purolator most of the time. The Purolator filters seem to be the best built.
Interesting note on Boyd's comment. I'm glad CR is involved because they're not known for dropping anything until they have it figured out, even if it means court battles.
lube the new gasket
This brings up an intersting point - could it be excess oil from that causing the so-far unexplained fires? What are you supposed to lube it with, the oil itself? Just curious. That's what I do (a very tiny amount).
I don't see what Honda's engineering department can do
I think an oil filter relocator kit could address the problem.
FYI - avoid a Highlander with the 3.0l V6, an engine prone to sludge. Toyota blamed owners at first but public pressure forced an extended warranty and engine replacement for those affected.
Toyota has 2 new engines in it now, the 2.4l should be adequate and the V6 is now a 3.3l, neither engine affected by the sludge issue.
Noone's perfect, we can all agree. Toyota dragged their feet until public pressure, mostly from internet regulars like us, forced them to take action.
Perhaps we'll see the same response from Honda?
-juice
Some of the language is more definitive in the latest report.
"Honda did not change manufacturing or repair procedures for the '03 and '04 models and is looking into whether there were flaws with the filters or how they were installed. The fires have occurred only after original filters were first replaced."
Which suggests that theories like the one presented by CR's analyst are without merit.
"The CR-V's exhaust manifold is positioned in a way that makes it easier for leaking oil to hit it, Honda says."
If this statement is an accurate account, then Honda is admitting that the location of the exhaust makes it more likely for a fire to happen.
"NHTSA is monitoring Honda's response to the problem and could reopen the investigation or negotiate a recall. But the agency believes it is a technician error."
And this last one confirms that the NHTSA still views it as a Tech error.
The difference here is that Toyota had no reason (other than suspiscion) to blame the customer.
With these cases Honda has proof that the majority of these fires are being caused by Tech error.
Toyota dealers actually were pitching "de-sludge" service specials.
It was quite a phenomenon.
Toyota tried to blame customers for not meeting their service intervals, but the argument just didn't hold up.
-juice
Which suggests that theories like the one presented by CR's analyst are without merit.
No.. I think this supports CU exactly.. "They are looking into whether there were flaws with the filters or how they were installed". I see this applying to the original filter and installation as well.. Suppliers change all the time.... I don't think Honda could say that every single thing about the '02,03 and '04 is EXACTLY the same...
Unless I'm wrong.....hmmmmm
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Absolutely, I agree.
-juice
I don't think they have proof.. it is still just their opinion.. If that is proof, then Sabrina's judgement against Honda would be proof that Honda is liable, and we all know that isn't so...
Sorry for quoting.. I hate it when people do that to me... Wish I could learn to use italics.
regards,
kyfdx
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-juice
Theories about the filter, gasket, or installation are a separate issue. They do not belong exclusively to CR, either.
The evidence they have found thus far points to two Tech errors (stacked and pinched gaskets). Is that iron-clad proof? No. Is it as close as we can get? Yes.
If you do not accept the professional judgement of fire investigators, then there is no need for an investigation, now is there?
Sabrina's judgement came before the investigation results were released to the public. By her account, the Honda reps at the trial were clueless. So I doubt the case was presented with those results. Perhaps she can clear that up?
"Even if that statement is true, what's causing the rest of the fires?" - juice
If you want to ignore the professional findings of the investigation, then I guess all this speculation about filter relocation, manifold shields, and other "solutions" are also bust. If you seriously believe that it's not the oil, why are you suggesting oil-related fixes?
this could easily boil down to one operator on one manufacturing line forgetting to lube the oil filter on assembly, occasionally, and it sticking to the engine on removal. At which point most techs who do oil changes would remove the filter and not see the gasket, and go back up for it.
Why not the element or accord? different assembly line.
even if this was the problem, which Honda certainly should address and check, it's still the tech's fault for double gasketing, in my opinion.
I keep saying 40+ but one source is now talking about 60 engine fires.
A relocator kit moves the potentially spilled oil away from the hot spot.
Here's one:
http://store.modacar.com/products/Mazda/Miata/MODAOICO/
-juice
As for the post several pages ago (sorry, I haven't been here in a while) that Honda is not doing their duty by informing the public that their vehicle has a chance of catching fire, I'm not quite sure how to respond to that. There's a chance that lots of stuff could happen.
What percentage of vehicles sold have to experience a problem before the company is negligent in not warning potential buyers? Do the 30 toyota engine fires represent a significantly better vehicle? What about the 1 Nissan fire? What were the percentages in each case? (numbers from memory, and probably wrong, but the point remains, I think)
I'd be upset if my car caught fire too, trust me. I'm just trying to understand the cause.
They were able to conclude the result of some of the fires, not all.
The kit I propose would address the fire issue specifically because any failure whether its the filter or the tech or whatever would occur away from a hot spot.
It would be effective REGARDLESS of what/who is to blame.
-juice
You can't blame it all on the techs.. CR-Vs are probably only 10% of what they work on.. Something is at least making the double or pinched gaskets more likely...
regards,
kyfdx
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If you truly believe that statement, then you must concede that solutions based on their findings are also questionable.
You're saying that the results don't "prove" anything. Then using those same results to promote your theory.
Service Manager: "A customer's vehicle caught fire, today"
Tech: "Yeah, the oil filter gasket was hard to remove, so I left it there."
I don't see that line of thinking as a just reason to blame Honda. Just because a job is tougher for one vehicle does not excuse them from doing it right.
Where I used to work, the overhead door had two yellow poles on each side... About once per week, someone would catch the one on the right as they were turning while exiting the door in an Econoline....
The industrial engineers measured (a very large company), and came back with the findings that there was no good reason for that to keep happening and that it was "operator error".
The point is.. If it keeps happening, maybe your standard of measurement is wrong.. Our manager paid the $800 to have it moved 10 inches out of petty cash... And, no one ever hit it again...
If something keeps happening, there is a reason.. and blaming the techs doesn't explain why it happens more to CR-VS, and not Accords, or '02 CR-Vs..
regards,
kyfdx
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I'll re-state it just to be clear - I think the root cause of the fires is a combination of several things, one or many of these:
* substandard oil filters/gaskets
* thin oil
* location of oil filter (near hot spots)
* rushed oil changes
* something on the block causing stickiness where the gaskets meet
It's not just one but several of these that results in fire.
-juice
Service Manager: "A customer's vehicle caught fire, today"
Tech: "I can't talk I have to finish 16 oil changes before lunch because that's the amount of time Honda has deemed is safe and fair for an oil change."
Service Manager: "Sit down, this is important. Don't you remember all the training techniques we taught you?"
Tech: "No. Because you never trained me"
Service Manager: "Oops. Remember to lie about that when the investigators come. Did you read the Bulletin at least?"
Tech: "You never showed me that"
Service Manager: "Lie about that too, OK?"
-juice
First an earlier conversation:
HR: TCO is the big new acronym, you gotta get that down for the CR-V. We suggest you allocate 8 minutes for oil changes.
DSM: our certified techs earn too much.
HR: hire trained monkeys. Actually, don't train them either, too costly.
DSM: perfect, profits are up, TCO is down and sales are up. Can you cheapen the filter even more?
HR: we found the cheapest filter on earth, look for new part numbers soon.
<months later>
DSM: oops, it hit the fan, our plan backfired.
HR: sorry about that, Lee Iacocca infiltrated our assembly lines with some Super Glue. Something like that. The gaskets stick like leeches.
DSM: CR-Vs are ablaze everywhere.
HR: fire the monkey.
<later still...>
HR: did you get The Memo?
DSM: what memo?
HR: you didn't get The Memo? Everyone got The Memo.
-juice
Every manual labor job is required to be done as efficiently as possible... That is called productivity, and it is important to profit and loss.. To assume that everyone works in an unsafe manner or is not trained because of it, is just wrong... Safety is just good business, and most businesses put a premium on it.
regards,
kyfdx
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interesting. on first oil changes, or subsequent, for the 2002 CR-V? A double gasket can happen to any car at any time, of course. I would be sure that you would find a double gasket fire on a civic too, if you looked hard enough.
Are the elements catching fire at the same rate as the CR-V's? That might be an interesting data point. Also the Accords and TSX that share the engine, though I don't know whether they are laid out in the same way with respect to the oil filter and the exhaust in question.
But if the Tech error can be corrected, you eliminate the possibility of a second problem. So why not start with the Tech?
"The point is.. If it keeps happening, maybe your standard of measurement is wrong..."
So why are people not allowing Honda to see if it keeps happening?
I think its more likely that there is something that makes it more likely for the tech to make an error... I think the "something" is the cause in the cause/effect relationship..
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I thin it's a bit premature to try determining the rate for fires for the Element. Right now, it's about 1% with only one vehicle on the record. That's slightly lower than the rate for the CR-V. But if one more Element has a fire, it will be almost twice the rate of the CR-V. Too small a sample.
Both the CR-V and Element come as AWD vehicles. The addition of a transfer case and prop shaft can have a significant impact on where the exhaust systems are routed. They are also Mac strut designs, while the Accord is 2x bone. So the engine compartment is shaped differently.
All jobs are required to be productive enough to turn a profit, or the job no longer exists.. But, safety still comes first.. I've been in plenty of auto service bays, and I don't see anyone killing themselves to make their goals.
regards,
kyfdx
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Sorry about the quoting.
I agree. I think it is very likely that something makes the gasket more difficult to work with. (I do not claim to know exactly what that "something" is, or how to fix it.)
However, that does not excuse the Tech from doing the job properly. (Hence my conversation post.)
My corporate job involves training people. It is much easier for me to train people who are "smart". That does not excuse me from not training those who are "dumb". If I have to spend more time working with some people, I am paid to do that. If I have to develop extra teaching aids (visuals, group projects, etc.), then that is what I must do to accomplish the goal. If a student comes out of my program clueless and bewildered, it reflects poorly on me.
The goal here is a proper oil change. If the Tech does not accomplish that, they are responsible for the results.
Now, I would agree that Honda could probably do "something" to fix "whatever" is making the CR-V more challenging to work with. But they need to know what the difficulty is before they can address it. Nobody knows that, yet.
Hey.. I'm getting paid right now!! Hope I'm productive.....LOL
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Honda dealers were contacted in mid-July. Honda and the NHTSA missed the deadline for the industry trade publication where the warning would be published for oil-change retailers. They will get the warning in the next publication (October).
I can't answer your other question, because I don't know the cause of the fires.. Your question would only be relevant if I knew the cause... and..(here comes another wild*** guess), I'm thinking Honda knows the problem, has fixed it at the assembly point, and is hoping that the "tech education" will take care of the ones already on the road.
regards,
kyfdx
(philospher, logician) EDIT: (wild*** guesser)
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Since I was mentioned I want to clear up recent events...Few weeks ago Honda agreed to a settlement without admitting fault. I cannot discuss the settlement other than to say the matter has been resolved and I am satisfied (which I truly am).
I continue to believe that the posts on this site, although repetitive at times, at least saved a few cars and possibly a life, since many people realized that a small leak could have disastrous consequences. Also the info here has been invaluable.
I AM NOW moving on...(at least on my case)
In a perfect world her case could have gone on. I only hope she ignited enough press so that this issue does not fade away...like a great many folks would like to see happen.
Just think, if Honda had covered the car under warranty intitially then we'd of never have known about any of this...well until someone died.
Thanks
The dealers haven't helped one bit with the rattling and other problems. Its a good thing Honda's are usually trouble free (this one isn't)because the service is not great.
I was poking fun while pointing out a few of the circumstances besides the tech him- or herself that may have contributed to these fires.
Basically everyone is cutting corners, and they usually get away with it. This may be more symptomatic of the entire industry. Pre-catalysts heat up exhausts to reduce emissions, meanwhile techs are forced to rush oil changes.
As Emeril would say, BAM!
-juice
First - when are we supposed to get the first oil change? My new '04 EX has 2250 miles on it. I have heard anywhere from 3500 miles (from my Honda dealer) to 5000 miles, to 7500 miles.
Second - have any of the fires happened on the west coast, which is where most of the CRV's come from Japan? I am in OR.
Third - is it not true that all the fires happened after the first oil change? And when that has passed, you are out of the woods with regards to a possible fire?
Fourth - from what I understand, there have been possibly 60 fires out of 300,000 + CRV's sold. Now those 60 fires are terrible and should never have happened. But that amounts to .02% that it will happen to me. I have a higher chance of getting hit by lightening.
Fifth - I just went on my first road trip of about 600 miles with the CRV. I get about 24 mpg around town with some faster driving thrown in. This trip I got 29.2 mpg on the hwy. with a combination of 65 and 75 mph. I am thrilled with that......just as good as my Altima was.
Julia, I am sorry for your struggle with this car. I love my CRV and highly recommend it to anyone who asks my thoughts on it (fires not withstanding).
Sabrina, hooray for you! I am glad for a resolution that makes you happy.
Keep it up everyone and I look forward to your responses to my quieries. Thanks.
BTW.. I was told to do my first oil change at 5,000 miles because the oil had an additive to help with break in. I waited to almost 7,500.
Thanks
I wonder why my Honda service manager told me to get the oil changed the first time at 3500 miles. She said they would also rotate the tires at that time. The first oil change is free. Then do I wait for 5000 miles for the second oil change?
Thanks for the info.