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I give up on this PC stuff -- what is the offense we're trying to avoid.
Is Touareg or Cherokee in some way a negative term? -- what about the Pontiac Montana or the fact that the emblem for Pontiac used to be the likeness of a Native American Indian -- are we somehow suggesting that these names are "bigoted" (or whatever the point is)?
Anyway what does the name Touareg symbolize?
Bob
Editors' Review
Steve, Host
Yes there is a throttle response lag on occasion when not at a complete stop that is annoying at minimum....so no California rolling stops are advised. I very much like the V8 and already have over 1600 miles in a month. The only lack of punch is when looking to pass or accelerate quickly when going 40mph or faster. With the very high gearing of something like 4.56 rear end, much higher than the Cayenne, the Treg has better low end punch at the expense of punch and fuel economy at higher speeds. If one truly wants a response SPORT SUV experience, the only real solution is the Turbo Cayenne. I did test drive it and almost bought it. My wife said get the VW and spend the difference more wisely......so I did to the benefit of our favorite charities and still got a new digital camera, a new home theater system, and a nice 37" LCD HDTV for the kitchen....and have change left.
The diesel engine will give the power of the old American big block iron, really much more, at 553ft/lbs of torque without the poor gas mileage of those engines, it propels the heavy SUV at 23mpg and 0 to 60 in 7,8 secs which is very fast for a heavy vehicle and it meets the Euro IV emissions requirements ahead of schedule.
Reading the link below a few things come to realization, some have said the Touareg is heavy but the reason is that from the very beginning of the project the power plants were being developed in parallel and the V10 diesel was one of them and it produces lots of power, that meant that the transmission and drive components had to be designed and built strong enough to handle the torque, same for the body to handle the torsion forces, in fact a British article said one could jack the Treg one wheel in the front and another opposite in the rear and all doors will work flawlessly, so for a V6 or V8 you have an extra strong drive and platform.
The V10 has been nominated this year the best big engine of the world, it reaches maximum torque at only 2000rpms and top speed 140mph, for a complete review of this advanced engine.
http://www.stealthtdi.com/VWDieselHistory.html
or T-reg V6 (w/ Air Sus) Vs. Avaitor Full option?
Cannot decide between two...
Pardon me if you piped up before, but are there any owners in here yet?
Steve, Host
Steve, Host
I'm working on a FAQ for the Touareg. It's not done yet, but I've put an early version online.
http://www.touaregfaq.com/
-Jason Sewell
I'm just curious why some cars seem to get people more excited - Boise is a small town and I've seen an FX45, but no T-Regs. No Cayennes either though.
The post count between our FX35/45 discussion and this one isn't that far off, but I just can't shake the feeling that VW hasn't grabbed a lot of eyeballs with their SUV. I see plenty of asides about the Passat in the SUVs discussions for example.
Inquiring minds. Or maybe it's just me :-)
Steve, Host
I am not surprised that you haven't seen one in Idaho yet. Aside from the few on local dealer's lots, I've only seen 2 others on the road in my travels through CT and NY over the last 5 weeks.
As for not seeing a Cayenne versus an FX, the Cayenne is much more expensive, and also hasn't been out as long as the FX. Price will dictate sales volume on anything.
Auto Site
T-Reg numbers were ~1700 ytd at the end of July, '03.
Steve, Host
T-regs are starting to pile up at my dealer...he had 5 last week, now has 8 on his lot, and says he's already pleading with VW to provide T-reg incentives. Besides their uninspired style, VW also has a hurdle to jump in getting buyers to pay Lexus and BMW prices for something with VW so conspicuously on the grill.
Thanks!
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I was hoping mine would have the sunshades, but it doesn’t. No problem, I think the standard tinting is sufficient. No flashlight either. The CD changer is on back-order because all the ones they had have been co-opted for cars with Nav.
The car is amazing. The V8 is sweet, the steering just right. And the looks classy and distinctive without being showy or attention grabbing. It does bounce more - and the road motions are exaggerated - compared to my ‘99 A6, but the ride beats the X5’s by a mile.
Pluses: engine, handling, steering feel, responsiveness, that gorgeous interior, size, looks, price. A very complete and satisfying package.
Minuses: the left side mirror whistles annoyingly. The hatch stays locked even when the car is unlocked. The seats are a smidgen less comfortable than my A6 and quite a bit less than those of the Volvo XC90 I almost bought. That’s it.
I cross-shopped the Audi allroad (everything I loved about my A6 plus fixes for everything I had disliked about it) but it was too light for the tax break, and I didn’t like the twin turbo. The V8 was more expensive. Also, the Volvo XC90, which is more practical, and has the most comfortable seats, but is extremely dull, dynamically, and relatively expensive. Finally a certified BMW X5 4.4, which was amazing dynamically, but had a busy choppy ride, much cheaper-looking and badly designed interior, and is too popular in my area.
I also considered (for a brief moment) the Lincoln Aviator , Ford Expedition and Chrysler Pacifica. All three underwhelmed me very quickly, despite their attractive pricing.
After an initial nasty experience with a local dealer, who wouldn’t let me drive one, almost didn’t let me sit in it and tried selling it at a $5,995 markup, I shopped 5 VW dealers through the edmunds.com website. Funny how that same local dealer now responded on e-mail with an offer of $1000 off MSRP. Two other dealers were also pretty straightforward, but two others played the usual dealer games, “just come in and we’ll work something out”, “tell me what other offers you have and I’ll beat them”, trying to convince me the “stripped” V8 I wanted wasn’t available and trying to push me into a fully loaded one in a different color. They didn’t call back when they said they would, then even tried to sell me another car after I told them I had given someone else my deposit on exactly the car I wanted.
I bought from Dirito Bros. in Walnut Creek, because he was very efficient and straightforward and gave me an excellent price with no games. Most importantly, he delivered the exact car configuration and color scheme I wanted. He was responsive, and didn’t make any promises he didn’t keep. I could have beat his price, but he really earned my business. I highly recommend him. Best of all, in the two weeks it took for my T-Reg to be delivered from Houston, I managed to sell my A6 for $2000 more than my negotiated trade-in. So I’m a happy camper.
I've been reading this forum pretty regularly, so I've seen what others have to say about the T-Reg. In addition, the wife and I saw the review of the T-Reg on C&D TV as well.
My observations, even though I haven't driven one yet:
pros:
- The interior is gorgeous .. the combination of the leather and wood is quite striking.
- The air suspension got some favorable comments from the wife, who stands 5'3" and drives a few dirt roads each day to work, plus the winters we get here in Colorado.
- Fit and finish seem to be good.
cons:
- No in dash CD changer. This, folks, is a deal breaker to Mrs. Michaell. Our Beetle has a changer in the trunk, and she absolutely hates it. The Explorer has the in dash changer, and it is a feature she won't compromise on.
- The rear seat legroom seems terribly small for a vehicle as big as it is.
- Price. $42K for a V6? Ouch and double ouch, when we could get a loaded V8 4Runner for about the same price.
Neutrals:
- Looks. Kinda generic looking - the wife prefers vehicles that are "distinctive", hence the NB. She calls my Saturn L300 "genericar". Then again, she also likes the looks of the Nissan Xterra and the Dodge Durango, since they are "macho" looking.
Can't comment on power, ride or handling, as I didn't drive one.
Overall? I know it seems petty, but unless VW rethinks its position on the CD changer, we'll probably go elsewhere. I will, however, try to get the wife to at least drive it next spring when we start looking in earnest.
Just imagine how many vehicles VW could sell if ALL dealers were as good!
Another way of looking at it is the fact that VW because of their innovative system is the only brand selling diesel cars in the US at this time, although somewhat detuned because of the US diesel quality.
Lastly you can say that the CDI and the VW TDI are improvements over the old systems which in fact that’s what they are.
* A small back seat -- even though she never sits back there.
* A large turning radius -- again, she doesn't make too many 3-point turns, but for some reason when she test drives a vehicle, she always pulls a u-ey just to see. It's what sold us on our '99 Expedition -- it maneuvered better than the Beetle!
* Comfy seats and interior ergonomics. One of the few things she dislikes about her Beetle are the firm seats and lack of interior storage space.
* Decent range from a tank of gas.
* It has to have enough HP to get out of its own way.
One of the things I've done is to build a simple spreadsheet that summarizes these things for her - I show the relevant stats for our current vehicles, then show the same stats for the SUV's we're considering. It contains stuff like:
- Pounds per HP
- Gas tank range, which I calculate by taking the tank size - 2 and multiply it by the highway MPG rating - 2.
- Turning radius
- Front headroom and rear legroom
- luggage capacity
Some vehicles, including ones that she likes, are pretty quickly eliminated this way. She's not one to drive 6 or 8 vehicles before making a decision -- this just helps her narrow her choices down to 2 or 3.
I know my method is not perfect -- please, no flames or arguments on the way we do things -- but it's a starting point for us. She'll also point out vehicles and comment upon their looks. I'll make a mental note to add it to the "to be considered" list.
Perhaps it is a way for VW to pass on profits to the dealer since this is a desired option in most cars these days.
My Saturn has only a single CD slot, and I'm perfectly happy with it -- though juggling CD's at 70mph on I-25 can be tricky at times!
Will it be a deal-breaker? I don't know. I do think she should drive it.
Lucky for us the auto show comes to Denver in March and we won't be buying until April or May -- I've already informed her that we *will* be going to the show and she *will* evaluate the cars on our list. She hates going to dealers and I figure this is the best way to see all the players in the shortest amount of time. The idea is that we can try to narrow it down to 2 or 3, then drive those "finalists" and make a decision.
sbcooke: we had the changer installed on our NB when we got it in '99. Cost was similar to what you posted.
And I agree -- there is no "perfect" vehicle. If I could find one car/truck/SUV that had every feature available that the wife wanted, it would probably be out of our price range. So yes, we will have to compromise in some fashion.
I understand your wife's desire to have an in-dash CD changer. We have a six disc unit on our MPV and I have just the single disc unit in my Passat. I have never come into a situation where I want a 6-disc player in my Passat but I appreciate the 6-disc unit in the MPV since it is the vehicle we use for extended highway jaunts.
I would love to get a V10 TDI T-reg when they are available (amazing power, great fuel economy for a V10 power plant) but unfortunately, they will be priced a bit north of my comfort zone. I would opt for the V10 TDI primarily because I would like to take it off road and I do travel through many canyons and mountain passes for work . . . I still have a year and a half remaining on my Passat lease and perhaps by then they will have some lease return T-regs available down in the price range where I can afford to pick one up.
For comparisons lets take the numbers of the Bora (that is what the Jetta is called in Europe) Over there the 1,9 TDI high performance engine delivers 150hp and 236ft/lbs of torque, that is a very impressive number for a little 4 cylinder engine, that kind of torque you will find in a V6 engine, check around, although the engine can rev up to 5000rpms coupled with the 6 spd transmission it will cruise at 70 mph at only 2050 rpms, that is very remarkable and above all it can deliver 65mpg, that is also very remarkable, nobody can touch that.
On the other hand the Jetta sold in the US with the same 1,9 TDI deliver 90 hp and a torque of 155ft/lbs and 50mpg which they are all good numbers but look what the potential of the engine is.
This leads to the conclusion that the V10 TDI engine will be detuned for the US market since low sulfur diesel is not available, it really is irritating the situation here with the big oil companies.
I found a couple of good articles, in the first one, top executives of VW admit the Touareg V10 will be available in a few months, expect shortages of the diesel version since all diesel engines of VAG are in high demand,
Second, VAG is continuing in its push for more models and better dealers, is planning cash incentives of up to 600,000$ for dealerships wanting to upgrade and recognizing that the brand needs quality improvements is addressing the problems, this should be good news for the Treg owners who should benefit from this new determination already in place with the SUV.
The second link provides good information and pics of a new VW sports car that looks very much like a Porsche Boxter.
http://thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=6106
http://vwvortex.vortexmediagroup.com/artman/publish/iaa_03/articl- e_172.shtml
Of course, big-oil has their hands in plenty of pockets in Washington and will probably find some way to push back that date to prevent them from having to spend additional money to refine deisel to the higher quality levels.
Your link to the VW concept R vehicle is nice. I read a recent article stating that Audi would be incorporting the new 3.2L VR6 engine in the TT .
I agree with you about big oil, I doubt we will see low sulfur diesel by the due date.
Bob
While I'm glad to see that VW is going to at least offer a full-size spare, across the board, as an option, the rear-mounted spare is more of a band-aid solution, than the ideal fix. Rear-mounted spares, while easy to access, block rear vision, and often contribute to expensive repairs if you should be rear-ended, even in minor collisions. Yeah, the other guy pays, but your SUV could be out of commission for a much longer period of time because of the extensive damage that's likely to occur. Just ask any insurance company what they think of outside spare tires.
If it meant a tad more rear overhang to fit a full-size spare under the rear floor, so be it. I'd be more than willing to sacrifice a few degrees in the angle of departure (which is great to start with), to get a full-size spare.
Bob
Back to the T-reg . . . I know that the offroad package for the T-reg has a full size spare as part of the package. That is the route I would like to go if I could afford it . . . V10 TDI w/ offroad package and all the bells and whistles, if only it wasn't so expensive
http://waw.wardsauto.com/ar/auto_super_diesels_2/index.htm
rsholland> Studies done in Europe concluded that spares tires are a big waste of resources and pollution in the act of making them and hauling around the extra weight because only a small fraction of the cars have a flat during the life of the tires, in fact they realized that most spare tires at the end of the life of a car are still unused but unsafe since the components have decayed, translated into numbers, millions of cars made with millions of spares tires unused, that is why the trend to skimpy tires, Mercedes has suggested to do away completely with the spares and offer a sophisticated fix a flat instead, in Europe that trend is starting already.
You are making the argument that for off roading reasons VW should offer the full spare, I have a different view, I am a serious off roader and I am not talking about going to the nearest park or mud hole and play for a little while and then go home, I have a Unimog well prepared and I like to ship it to remote areas like the Yukon and do 1000 miles in a few weeks of absolute wilderness, I have done the same thing overseas in some very remote areas. When planning to go off the road and away from help it is the obligation of the driver to prepare accordingly, a spare or two tires and the means to fix flats, tools to fix most common mishaps, a winch and shackles and others to extricate yourself, extra fuel, flash lights, shovels etc and etc.
I don’t want to kill the short overhang to haul a spare and more than departure angles is the towing aspects that is important to me because the closer the hitch is to the rear axle the less the trailer will sway. I have a ML and because of the short overhang it pulls a big offshore fishing boat better than my GMC pick up.
Big guy> Thanks for answering, I was wondering if anybody needed all the leg room in the Passat, I am built like your father in law I have long legs and arms, at 6,3 I am a little taller than average but when I seat down I am shorter than most.
As to reducing the the angle of departure, take a look at the rear overhang of a Land Rover Disco. If you were to add a few inches rear overhang to the T-reg, in order to accomodate an under the floor full-size spare, I say do it. Most off-roaders will never notice the difference.
And it not just for off-roading. I sure wouldn't want to tow anything, and have to rely on a temp spare tire. Sorry, no way will you convince me otherwise.
Don't get me wrong, I like the T-reg—a lot, but not engineering to have a standard full-size spare was a big mistake.
Bob
Bob
Also, in california we will have cadilitic converters for diesel so it will be pretyy darn clean. Out here in California we have no problem with deisel as its implemented in Europe. THe probelm is it will take time to get all the refineries to convert to the 5 PPM or less sulfer content deisel fule. You see, guys, in Califoria in the LA basin, where I live, the air can become stagnet and a air inversion layer at times developes making the air even more stagnet. Yesterday it was so bad I had a sore throt and raw sinuses -- it was not fun and left Disney Land early because it felt so bad; I left about 7 PM.
Naother big problem out here are the small engines like lawn mowers and Missouri is fighting that since a lawn mower engine manufacturer in Missouri lacks the factory space to implement cadilitic convers into thier production line (thanks Senitor BOnd from Missouri); just will keep me breathing harder and killing little children and causing cancer out here in the great LA basin of some 10 million poeple so as to aviod (and I do not believel it) the loss of 400 jobs in MIssouri.
P.S. Looked at a T-reg yesterday at the dealership. SOme one commented on the bad design of the door rest for those above 5'11' and I totally agree -- what was VW thinking on this one; as far as I can tell the minimum height requirments for the SS was 6 feet (I can make fun of them on this since I am about 50%German).
It will take you up to 50MPH with no time limitations, only common sense dictates that.
Now if I was going to design an SUV for the American market, where only 10% really go offroad...I would certainly design for the 10%,
particularly because I am also building Porsche Cayennes with the same skeleton that will do 0-62MPH in 5.6 Seconds and reach a Max speed of 160MPH with the Twin Turbo...
If you really want another full size tire on board...put it on the roof...it will only hold 220LBS.
"Door rest"? What is that?
Incidentally, I think Edgar Allen Poe knew how to spell.
I know that this correspondence is hardly earth shattering or likely to cause or cure much of anything. But it is cheap fun and recreation at times -- and, truth be told, I have learned from the various townhalls and audiworlds (etc.) that I read and in which I participate.
So, I ask if it is possible to edit and spell check these postings -- SOme times they ARE TOO DIFFICULT TO WADE THROUGH WHEN THEY ARE IN CAPS (FOR THE WHOLE MESSAGE), contane missspellde wrdso and even vhae transpositions of characters.
You all have many interesting and valuable perspectives and I learn a lot -- sometimes the message is lost when I have to wade through grammar, capitalization and spelling issues.
I will do all in my power to check my tomes and request that we all try to use the Queen's English (so to speak) to greatest effect (or is it affect?)
It is sort of nice having a mallable language. Especially since I may never learn how to spell "Touareg."
St3v3, Host
Should the leases become more attractive after the car has been out for a year?
I am also curious to see how reliability is on this first-year model.
On the road and in the showroom the Touareg appears to be very luxurious but I am not sure I want to pay $500 a month for 48 months and $3000 down for a V6 model with a $2300 Premium package and the $500 stereo upgrade.
By the way, do the rear window sunshades cover the entire window (like the X5 rear climate control package)? That would be a very positive feature because I have a new baby in the family.