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Reliability and good price, period. Get from here to there with no muss no fuss. Like gas and electric Accords and Camrys are public utilities. Plus most people don't have a clue what performance is about. EVERY Edmunds poster is a car genius compared to what's out there.
Ummm, Hummer, Mercedes-Benz, Ferrari, Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Porsche, Maserati, Jaguar, Lamborghini, Land Rover and Aston Martin have an identical (if not more so) stereotype in my mind.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Ummm, doesn’t that mean that we agree?
Best Regards,
Shipo
"We disagree, those brands don't carry the same negative stereotype that BMW has about its "owners". "
That being the case, I would beg to differ, I think that the owners of every brand I listed have at least as much of a negative stigma attached to them as do the owners of BMWs. I mean after all, look at the idiots that drive Hummers. What's up with that other than, "Look at me, I'm big and I'm bad, the rest of you are a bunch of nothings!"
Best Regards,
Shipo
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
The list would be:
1. If all I did was to test the 0-60, 0-100,1/4 mile, top speed
2. If all I wanted was more size than a civic
3. If all I wanted was DVD-A DTS 5.1
4. If all I wanted was new look/design
5. if all I wnted was more feature and amenities
6. IF all I wanted was more horsepower
7. If all I wanted was more space on back seat
8. If all I wanted was .....(sorry too many)
If the "benchmark" sales sinking maybe its time to put 325i as the benchmark. But I still think highly of other series like the 5,6,7. They are fabulous.
I dont care what CR thinks, only the stats numbers that matter.
Sport package might help the bimmers, thats a fact but dont forget about other car sport package like the A-spec (300+ hp,better suspension/stability, brakes, etc)
I own an Accord too, and I have my own opinion about how good the car is like those 800k people. Very Satisfied.
I'll agree here. 3-series is loose without SP. I find a much bigger difference with SP on 3-series than on 5-series. Lower CG combined with less weight make the SP difference more pronounced than on 5-series. It becomes more of a sports car than the 5-series could ever hope to be.
"Can't imagine why anyone buys a BMW without Sport Pkg!"
Riez, what is it you don't understand? It's money and the different expectations people have... not exactly phenomena!!! I'm not inclined to do switchbacks with a 5. Would find it much more pleasurable with a 3.
Either way, both cars are quite delightful in canyon carving mode. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
"3 series loose without SP" I beg to differ, to me the difference is very slight, much less than the difference between the 3 and some of the V6 cars mentioned above. SP cars look sharper though IMO.
Yes, this looks like a wonderful life I have planned now. I'm happy someone pointed out the Accord's just as good. It's reshaped my entire view of entertainment.
"1. If all I did was to test the 0-60, 0-100,1/4 mile, top speed (which the 3 series bests in at least two of the myriad of models and comes close in a model having 50 less hp and torque)
2. If all I wanted was more size than a civic (I would get an 8 seater)
3. If all I wanted was DVD-A DTS 5.1 (keep it)
4. If all I wanted was new look/design (instead of the classier looks of a BMW)
5. if all I wnted was more feature and amenities (that don't add to the driving experience)
6. IF all I wanted was more horsepower (that doesn't translate into a faster car)
7. If all I wanted was more space on back seat (I would get an Excusrion)
8. If all I wanted was .....(sorry too many)"
and I did.
The BMW Sport Pkg is the real sleeper option. Too bad you can't get LSD. To get LSD you have to go M. Not even Perf Pkg adds LSD.
I dont know about translating into a faster car but these number talks about power.
HANDLING
Slalom test 600 ft says it all, if handling problem like understeer/oversteer exist so much, do you think TL can run 67.5 mph while 330i only 63.6 mph. I know you would say something else like it doesnt have the special BMW feelings, maybe the tester is crazy, maybe the tester is driving under influence(ACURA tips better) or maybe he doesnt even wear underpants(15 grams lighter), well who knows. excuses excuses.
Some people use some certain rules :
Rule #1 : BMW is the best
Rule #2 : If the car is a little bit slower than other, please look at rule #1
Rule #3 : If the car has less luxury features, dont forget rule #1
Rule #4 : "But dad every test stats says otherwise", "dont argue with me I am your dad".
Then the kid say "dad, you forgot rule #1"
I agree with car B as the benchmark although sometimes the facts vary as in CR, C&D etc.
I appreciate that and you have put forth some compelling facts/opinions as well. I always enjoy trading posts as long as they are about the vehicles and the industry and not the vehicles owners.
I actually wish I could have one of each of the aforementioned vehicles in my driveway as they all have their strengths on the road. A different driving experience, if you will, for different times.
There are times for example, crawling to work at 10mph for an hour and a half the DVD-a really appeals to me. But then for those rare times the roads are clear, I'm very happy to be in my car, feeling like the dang thing is on rails anticipating my every move, while I am in pothole avoidance mode.
Car A for it's bigger engine does not translate into faster 0-60. 330 according to C&D gets to 60 faster than the TL, braking is superior as well. I believe it also beat the TL in the 1/4 mile. The M3 (which is a 3-series after all) for the same size engine as the TL is another story altogether with it's 4.7 0-60. The TL is a great sporty sedan, if you don't mind a little torque steer. The handling of the 330 is just better. Skidpad is better as well. I doubt the TL will best the slalom of the ZHP though, with it's M3 like handling.
So if all you want to do all day long is go around cones, the TL is the car for you.
My fathers 6'1" and he had no problems getting "comfy" in the front seats.
As so many have pointed out already there is so much more to cars that what can be measured with 0-60 or a 600ft slalom course. If you took 10 highly skilled drivers and asked them which car (TL or 330) they would take for a little 2 hour race (TL vs 330) I would be surprised if any of them choose the TL. I raced FWD cars for 10 years and I know what car I would take.
The 325i has a softer base suspension.
Don't get me wrong - the BMW sport pkg (seats!)is great (I had a '99 328i that I just traded in a few weeks ago). I'm just saying that it probably doesn't "transform" the car as much as people are saying in the case of the 330i or the coupes (which also come standard with the firmer suspension). And, anyone who has driven a 325i without the sport package and claims it ISN'T fun and still dynamically head-and-shoulders above most of the competition hasn't really driven one. It's still a *great* car.
(before I get labeled as a blind BMW-lover, my new car is an Infiniti G35x - loved my BMW but the value prop for the G was just too high to pass up).
It has long seemed that when the FWD advocates run out of arguments about why their beloved FWD configuration is superior they always turn to how well their cars perform in snow. Hey, y'all had me fooled to the point where I left behind RWD cars in 1979 and didn't start driving them again until 1999. So, I'll start out with a few well chosen words regarding how much better FWD cars perform in snow vs. RWD cars:
1) Assuming the assertion is in fact true, who cares? I mean, how much snow do you really drive in anyway?
2) Sorry guys, it just ain't so.
According to a very interesting test run a couple of years back by one of the car magazines, it is in fact true that under light acceleration, the FWD car will perform better in snow than an otherwise similar RWD car. Unfortunately for the FWD crowd, that's where the performance advantages end. RWD cars, with their naturally better balance (ie. fore/aft weight distribution) reigned supreme in the handling and braking department (AWD cars were a different story, however, the RWD cars, with their lighter relative weight still stopped better). After all, who cares about getting going if you cannot stop or turn?
I am now driving a RWD car with a nearly perfect 50/50 weight distribution, traction control and winter tires, and I can say without a doubt that it is the finest winter weather driving car I have ever driven. Given what Chris Bangle has done to BMW, I have no idea what my next car will be, however, I can assure you that even though I live in snowy New Hampshire, it will be RWD.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Best Regards,
Shipo
Frankly I cant find any in chicago. Unless in some deserted suburb maybe.
How about 100 miles or 2 hours drive on interstate highway, I assume its more easy to find and I bet you know the outcome.
I love a car that run well under any condition, not just snowy, dry, straight line, or even on winding road. Some cars may just run well on certain kind of road but not all.
But don’t forget the yucks. Humor is the flora of human emotion. A world without humor is like a house without landscaping.
Which reminds me, I haven't wisecracked in a while. I was incredibly tempted to throw in some totally sophomoric quip about Hummers but thought twice.
By the way, when you talk about being addicted to these boards, I find that one of the best things about the internet, as part of it’s incredible significance to mankind, is the catharsis that has come about with regard to the formerly lost art of letter writing. This art is once again alive, better than ever, with an immediacy that was hardly imaginable not too long ago. I always encourage the kids to play less with computer games, read and write more often the net has amazing education value.
Somehow I’m thinking of my adolescence now. There are black leather jackets, pompadours, cockroach-killer shoes with taps, the Beach Boys, and dreams of Corvettes. And pinging along with the screws that have come loose in my head is the wisdom of my fellow Bronx denizens, a philosophical variety that, no doubt, originated either there or in Brooklyn. It goes something like this "Hey designman, I got your catharsis RIGHT HERE!"
Speedracer3, I'm wondering where I fit in with that BMW stereotype. As a three-car owner, I'll definitely be cross-shopping therapists.
;-)
1) BMW: 54.5%
2) Lexus: 53.2%
3) Acura: 52.1%
4) MB: 52%
5) Audi: 51.2%
6) Infiniti: 51.1%
I got a question. If the average BMW sells for 95% of MSRP, and the average Infiniti sells for 90% of MSRP, aren't real world resale values approximately the same (51.1/90 = 54.5/95 = 57%)?
Realized depreciation really best applies to the person who buys the car new and then sells it later. Their actual realized depreciation is the difference between what they actually paid (which is usually below MSRP) and what they actual get for resale (which is usually below the published books). MSRP is normally meaningless to depreciation unless that is the price paid at time of purchase.
The tense of my question should be in the future tense.
Of course, these estimates do matter when it comes to calculating a lease deal today. But I've never leased and can't imagine ever doing so.
But I also think these estimates can be dangerous for people who buy and then plan on trading in or selling off their car in say 2-5 years. These numbers are almost always over what you will actually receive from a dealer or private party. To be safe, deduct at least an extra 10% if not more like 25%.
Give you an example. On 11/30/01 I bought a CPO '98 540i6. Had about 52K miles. Original MSRP was around $58K. I paid about $36K. I traded her in 9/03 at about 78K miles. Got about $19K from dealer. So my actual depreciation for the 22 months and 26K miles I owned her was about $17K. The dealer who bought it from me sold it for about $22K. So the car at 78K miles/5 years was worth a bit over a 1/3 what she went for new/actually paid in '98.
Thanks.
Jennie Phipps
1. BMW 5 series
2. Mercedes E55 AMG
3. Audi S4
4. Infiniti G35
5. EVO
The information source for these vehicles is Edmunds of course.
It's all covered, one end to the other.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
"You just need to read the numbers to figure out what C&D is about. I remember the comparo between the CLS and the 330i that you mention. In fact you can find it online. Curiously, the 330i seemed to jump nearly 1.5 seconds faster to 60 (5.8 vs 7.3) than when they tested it alone, it also ripped through the 1/4 in an astonishing 14.4 seconds, I say astonishing because in the same issue they list it in the road-test digest as needing a whole 15.6 seconds, which is much more in line with every other place I've seen it tested. Then they didnt even question this remarkable improvement??
They go on to say that the 330i beats the CLS due to its performance advantage. But when you look at the numbers, they give the CLS a better rating for the engine, a better rating for the transmission and an equal rating for handling. Then they give the CLS a 7 for styling, while giving the BMW a 10 - and so the CLS loses by 1 point."
Styling is purely subjective.