Nissan Frontier Crew Cab VS Ford Explorer Sport Trac

gooba · April 2000

vince8,I would not consider the supercharger a band-aid.At least it is something offered by the factory so that you would not have the extra investment later on. This is no different to the performance additions you did to your Ranger. If the truck was performing to your expectations you would not have a need to change it. The Sport trac is a vehicle that will give the Nissan a run,but I have my doubts about it outhauling a crewcab. I agree with the testers when they say that the composite bed will not handle the same things a metal bed will.

mrpenguin20 · April 2000

I just got back from the Dallas Auto Show, the Nissan section had a few crew cabs and king cabs, including a new 2001 model of each. They had a yellow king cab XE on the floor so you could get in it. I didn't see any changes in the interior, but I haven't been around too many other Frontiers, so I'm not positive. It looked nice, but the new fender flares definitely need to be colored like on the SE and SC.
There was also a new crew cab on a stand. It was a light blue SC (super charged), with all the options. I'm a Ford fan myself, but I admit this new truck looked really nice in person. You can see it at www.freshalloy.com.

mikes16 · April 2000

Vince,
I never doubted the towing capacity of the ford. That was not the point of my long winded post above. MY POINT was that in almost every case a [non-permissible content removed]/euro engines of the same displacent will make more hp and torque than its "Big 3" competition.

Calling the supercharger a band aid is a bit of a strech. WHY? because Nissan knows they have a bulletproof 3.3L engine. This is the same engine(.3L larger) that was in older maximas(mine) and old pathfinders. THEY ARE TOUGH! The 200ft-lbs of torque is peaked at 2800rpm. 90%(180) is available at 1500. That means nail the gas and she jumps off the line. That being said it DOES fall short on top end...NO DOUBT! So in comes the supercharger. The result is 40 more hp and 40 more ft-lbs of torque. Are thousand of 3.3L pathfinder owners struggling to maintain 75 on the highway? NO..of course not. Now you have 3 choices. 4cyl....slow but economy. 6cly...better...only moderate power. 6cly sc....pretty quick.

Oh...and who was the clown(for lack of a better term) who said a "a v6 camaro was faster than a s2000 because of torque"? True..the v6 camaro does have more torque...but its not even close to being as fast as a s2000(this isn't a my car is better than yours type of thing) Look in the back of the newer Motortrends....the s2000 is rated 0-60 in around 5.2 seconds. The V8...NOT V6 does it in around 5.3. So if the 8 does it in 5.3 than the v6 falling some 120hp less surley is much slower. yes....the s2000 has very little torque(and that matters around town...for just crusing) but its 9000rpm redline and tiny gears send it flying. In fact...the s2000 barely squeaks its tires off the line...but it still gets to 60 in way under 6 when driven properly.

Oh well...another fun post,
I like when you guys pick my brain

cya,
Mike

mikes16 · April 2000

hehe..I should proof read.

The "3 choices" are most likely for next years frontier/xterra. They may phase out the 4cyl alltogether..but I doubt it.

The pathfinder on the other hand has a wonderfull 3.5L VQ(think of a big maxima engine). 240hp/268ft-lbs. 250hp when teamed up to the 5sp(different tuning)

Again Ford 4L v6 musters only 210hp The 5L v8...you get 5 more hp. Yea...the 5L makes 288ft-lbs but thats only 20 more than the nissan 3.5L. Amazing stats....

Bottom line: Comparing nissan to ford engines is like apples to rotten oranges. I got an apple on my dashboard.

ccnc4x4 · April 2000

The mechanic who worked on my CC said that
the Nissan CC was actually designed by some ford people. He said that it liked the Ford Sport Trace better. The engine was better.
However, I parked my CC next to the explorer Trac.
I think that some people would like either one.
I like the roof rack on my CC. But some people may not. THe explorer has more interior options
as well. Something I would not really care about much after having some techno problems with options.
But I saw phiscally defects on the explorer. The lines were not as sharpe as with the Nissan.
I think that Ford service over all is better than nissan. The mechanic siad that the saw the frontier very little. But ford dealers have been better at customer satisfaction in my experience. There are always bad ones.
If I had money and a big enough garage, I think that F150/F350 Crew cabs are the best buy.
But for the yuppy life style, the Nissan Crew Cab is the best for me, I would buy Toyota 2nd, Ford Trac and then Dodge.

wdoyle9752 · April 2000

I have talked with Nissan Motosports and they sell camshafts for the 4cyl engine that increase the hp by 20 (not sure about torque). Also if installed by certified Nissan tech your warranty is not voided. I wouldn't mind a 2.4l 4cyl engine running at 163hp.
Does Ford sell similar engine upgrades which allow the vehicle to retain its warranty?

cncman · April 2000

wdoyle;
better check with Nissan service before you do that, I have never seen an internal modification that did not alter the factory warranty, even if done by a Nissan tech, if your source is a nissan
dealer, get that in writing before you do it! Let us know if you do, I have the same engine and was thinking about putting a K&N filter in it, but anything more, I dunno, and I am pretty happy with the performance now.

scape2 · April 2000

Mikes16, you are downplaying 20ft/lbs of Torque, do you know what you are saying? I don't think so.
The 4.0 SOHC V6 is a fantastic engine and is proven over the years in the ever popular Explorer. It took Nissan how many years to actually catch up with Ford in terms of HP/Torque? Do you know how much .5 liters is in terms of size? You are comparing Nissan top of the line engine to Fords mid-range engine also that is available in the Explorer. Ever heard of a V8?

DTKWOK · April 2000

So, the 10 hp difference is no big deal? how high is your engine running at 70-75 mph (you do have highways in Oregon right? American companies aren't known for building high revving engines that last. (My 83 Civic - 1.5 L - runs at 3500 rpms at 65 mph, with 155K + miles and no engine nor drivetrain problems so far.)
Like some people have mentioned before, the 200 lb-ft torque is more than adequate for them. Heck if you wanted torque, why not go for the S-10 4.3? People have different needs/priorities, not everyone needs to haul cinder blocks or tow boats 90% of the time you know.

Also, can anyone provide torque figures for both the Nissan 3.3 and Ford 4.0?
When you say 0.5 liters, that's not a lot, but nonetheless a bigger engine should produce better numbers, right? As for V8's, how 'bout the Tundra's 4.7L or Chrysler's V8? BTW, Nissan's planning to dump a V8 (Q45 I think) their truck lineup very soon.

mahimahi · April 2000

zack1000,

I appologize my point wasn't clear(I ramble too much. Like I said it's not all about Hp and Torque although it certainly helps but it's not the only factor. Understand I didn't mean to bash Ford, in fact I originally was shopping a Ford F-250 Crew Cab. My reason for not getting it was that it would be at least five years old before I got the boat I plan on getting. Since, I live in a very congested area a thought it would be smart to get a smaller truck. But, I wanted to be able tow my demo. I didn't buy this truck to tow all the time maybe once or twice a month. I have towed the same trailer (boat) loaded the same, with Ford Sport Trac, Nissan C.C., Toyota Tacoma and S-10.
They all towed the same rig fine, especially the s-10 ( I previously owned one with two transmissions in 36k mi.), but I wanted a crew cab ( I tested all of them to be fair). True the sport trac has a longer wheelbase and only a 100lbs. more towing capacity, but I can tell you this the Ford did sag (not alot like an explorer)but it did, when the trailer was hoked up as did the S-10. My point is that the Sport Trac has the same suspension as the regular exporer, which might explain Ford's reason to produce a composite bed. BTW, the towing cap numbers are a wash if you compare the max. payload! Ford's Ranger would even make a better tow vehicle over a sport trac merely, by design. It's too bad they didn't use the Ranger platform for the sport trac, it sure would make it alot easier to turn the Nissan in for the F-250.

mahimahi · April 2000

Vince8,

Try this, go to a ford dealer act like your serious about buying a sport trac, then take it out for the weekend. Hook up to a 4000lb boat and trailer back it down a boat ramp at low tide. After a the boat hits the water, put the suv (I'm sorry the truck)in gear fist,low or even low 4-wd whatever you want then rev that pretty little 4.0L upwards around say...the 4000 mark so you can you beloved torque...then after you do that, do the same with the nissan (I did and seriously the Nissan crawls just like my '94 chevy 4.3L). This should give an indication of what everybody has been saying to you and also shuld show you what kind of abuse you would have to put that sport trac through every time you wanted to use your boat. If I'm not mistaken you own a ranger now and tow with it? If it's over 2500lbs you'll be disappointed, not becuase it's a ford but because it's a SUV not a true pickup! The towing ability between the trucks is noticable and those of you that tow, whether it be campers, utility, or boats, know what I'm talking about.....it helps to get that torque at a low rpm's.

scape2 · April 2000

I am trying to find the torque curve for the 4.0 SOHC V6 vs the Nissan 3.3 V6. At 4000 rpms you are at about 240ft/lbs of torque, when does the Nissan reach 240ft/lbs of torque? Oh, thats right it is only capable of 200ft/lbs of torque. You are going to have a hard time convincing me that a Nissan CC can out pull/tow a Sport Trac. When I find the curve I will post the link. Does Nissan offer a 5spd automatic too?

mahimahi · April 2000

Vince8,

I can tell that you haven't driven or towed with either vehicle, right? Go out and tow(feel) the differnce. Compare the two trucks to your Ranger if you want, my bet is since you are a Ford fan you'll wait for a 4 door Ranger. First, you'll notice a differnce at the stop light, stop sign and at the boat ramp. Second, you won't feel the C.C. swaying at highway speeds as you will with the Sport-Trac (this is common with SUVs). I tested all the trucks the same four same people(650lbs) full tanks of fuel and about 250lbs of gear. With this load and the 3500lb. boat hooked up you can see the immediate difference in the suspension of the sport-trac, it sagged bad! This is why it swayed at highway speeds, the suspension just isn't designed like a pickup's. Get off the straight torque numbers already, your point is mute if you compare your ranger w/3.0L(192 lbs. of torque and 5600lbs of towing cap.)vs. the sport-trac. My point here is the drivetrain plays a huge role in making up for torque if geared right. As for your 5sp Auto question, I really don't know what your point is, but I could ask you "What's Ford's std. warranty on that 5sp tranny or the whole drivetrain for that matter?". Maybe your point is that it took Ford 5 gears to do what the other manufactures did in 4 gears!(more gears + more parts= more problems)
Just in case you were wondering all the trucks I drove did great in the braking dept.(probably due to ABS and the trailer having brakes) The tongue weight on the trailer is 375lbs. and the trailer is a tandem axle.

zack1000 · April 2000

I'd like to know what Ford dealer is letting Mahimahi take brand new Sport Tracs off their lot so that he can conduct all of his tests of towing boats out of the water.

The dealers where I live sell their sport tracs so quickly that they wouldn't mess around with letting someone test drive it for a weekend.

mahimahi · April 2000

Zack1000,

First I should comment that any dealership that thinks that either, they are too busy or that their hybrid vehicle doesn't warant the concerns of a potential customer because they are selling fast, would never see a dollar from me! For that I would just shop online.
To answer your question, it was a Ford dealership here on the west coast of Fla, that really wanted to sell me the vehicle. So they let me have it for the afternoon, 'cause they knew what my concerns were. But you are right, they do move fast, this dealership sold all seven that he got that week within 9 days! My salesman knew what I wanted so he helped me the best he could. By the way my salesman was curious too, but not surprised when I told him my results.

scape2 · April 2000

You are really reaching with the idea that a Nissan CC will out tow/pull/haul a Sport Trac. With its overwhelming HP/Torque adantage and its limited silp rearend, front independent short/long arm type, w/torsion bars and anti-rollbar/solid axle with tow-stage variable-rate leaf springs an and anti-roll bar, 5455E 5spd automatic transmission, I highly doubt it. Its interior is leaps and bounds ahead of Nissan as far as quality/fit/finish and style. Frankly there is really no comparison between the two. The only difference is price, about 2-3K. The redline on the wonderful SOHC 205hp/240ft/lbs of is 6250 rpms, this engine is built to rev! My book, Ford wins hands down.

mahimahi · April 2000

Vince,
That's because the only book you have is a Ford brochure! It look's like you copied it well.
Just to let you know I've read the brochure too! But, I don't go by what marketers say especially when they are focussed on the needs of buyers shopping for SUV's not trucks. But that was never my point, it was which (of these two) makes a better tow vehicle. It's funny that all you do is mention that Hp & Torque over and over in every one of your responses, but never your experience with either vehicle. This is ok, because I just wanted to let those that are deciding between the two what my EXPERIENCE was and to state that a truck always tows/pulls or hauls better than a SUV in its class. If I'm not mistaken, that same 'wonderful 4.0L' is in your Ranger right?What's it's HP rating? 160? If so that's an engine needing more that a band-aid more like a plastic surgeon. Anyway, the same truck (ranger) with a 3.0L (less hp & Q than S-T or CC) has a higher tow rating...see it's not all about hp & torque. BTW, I'm not reaching as far as that 'wonderful 4.0L'was when it was trying to find some torque to get up that boat ramp!

keanec · April 2000

I must disagree strongly with your opinion that the Sport-Trac's interior is "leaps & Bounds". Give me a break! Nissan quality is much superior to Ford's!! Maybe to your eye (if you have seen a Sport Trac outside a brochure)the interior looks better but no way is the quality/fit/finish better than Nissan. The ones I have seen in Canada are cheaper looking, IMHO, than the Nissan. Yhe ergonimics of the Nissan is excellent!

As to your arguement with mahimahi, I have to agree with him, I would rather have a truck (CC) than a SUV (Sport Trac) pull any time. You might think it sounds good for a while to have a high reving engine when you want torque, but in the long run it is much better to have an engine that gives you it's torque at low RPMs like to CC does.

If you want a SUV buy a Pathfinder, it is leaps and bounds above the Sport Trac, and in 8 years you will see what true quality is. If you want a 4 door small truck, buy a Nissan CC, it is a true 4 door truck!!

Having owned both Nissans and Fords, there is no comparison in quality...buy a Ford (ask any older Windstar owner) and change trannys and other parts for the rest of its short lifespan!!

mdaffron · April 2000

Hey guys, let me add my two cents' worth here. I'm the owner of a 1994 Ford Ranger. When I bought it, I made the stupid mistake of promising my wife that I'd keep it until it was paid off. I've had it for five years and I can't WAIT to get rid of it in a few months. It started having engine problems at 6,000 miles and has spent many, many nights at the dealership and other repair shops. It has been the most unreliable, piece-of-crap vehicle I have ever owned -- and I've owned Saabs and Hyundais!!!

My Ranger doesn't hold a candle to the 1992 Nissan pickup a good friend of mine has. His idea of "routine maintenance" is changing the oil and topping off the windshield washer fluid. My Ranger burns a quart and a half of oil between changes, leaks transmission fluid from a faulty set of rubber transmission plugs that Ford won't recall (check out www.fordranger.com and see all the complaints on this), and mysteriously loses antifreeze from somewhere at the rate of about a quart a year. The entire upper half of the engine has been replaced by the dealer, along with most of the emissions sensors and other equipment, in a vain effort to find out why the damned engine pings like hell ALL THE TIME. (The Ford tech rep I've met with three times finally said that was the way the engine is "designed" to run ... believe that?!!!)

If you truly want to compare Ford and Nissan trucks, go to nhtsa.com and check out the number of recalls and TSBs (Technical Service Bulletins) each has had. That'll tell you something about quality. It seems to me, as an owner, that Ford releases unproven designs to their customers, who then have to deal with Ford's recalls and TSBs as Ford *attempts* to do the homework it should have done before the vehicle was released to the public.

In summary, I've owned my one Ford product, and I've learned my lesson. No more Fords for me, thank you. I've had it with "Ford Quality." Guess I'm in the dog house. And you know what they say about dogs loving trucks. Nissan, here I come.

scape2 · April 2000

Back to HP and Torque. The Nissan reaches it peak torque of 200ft/lbs at about 3300 rpms! thats not high revving!?? Torque curve, I am still trying to find the Torque curve for the 3.3 vs the SOHC 4.0. By the way, what happens after the Nissan reaches 3000rmps? All your torque is gone! while the Ford still has another 40ft/lbs to go! Torque does matter, does make a difference, its apparent you know nothing about HP/Torque curves of engines, suspensions, or rearends. Go ahead, keep thinking what you wish, but the Sport Trac will outsell the Nissan 3 to 1. I would love to hook a tow chain to a Nissan CC and one to a Sport Trac and see who pulls whom. My money will be on the Ford.

scape2 · April 2000

By the way, I pulled my data from Truck Trend who raved about the Sport Tracs ability/agility and utility. Along with interior finish and quality and comfort.

keanec · April 2000

I don't know who Truck Trend is and I thought you were giving us your opinion on finish, quality and comfort. Do you have your own opinion or just Truck Trend.

I did sit in the Sport-Trac (at least the Canadian version)and I was not impressed by the new age look of the interior. I did not find the comfort level bad, but I wouldn't rave about it. The fit and finish was above Ford "normal", but definately not as good as the Nissan.

If you want to talk quality, see the post above yours about Rangers, also go to Edmunds topic about Explorers and learn first hand about poor quality from owners; not wannabees. I have owned Nissan and Ford's and there is no question whose quality is better!

As to your power, I would be interested in seeing the graphs of torque only because I am interested in how much torque the S-T has at 1500-2000rpm where most pulling is done with Automatics.

As for your hooking them up together - Who cares??? The CC can easily pull a 3000lb trailer at normal highway speeds and that is what is important, not "mine does 0-60 in 2sec. and can go 150mph while pulling my cigarette boat"!!!

fordsporttrac · April 2000

Oh and mdaffron,

This is post 391 from the
New Nissan Frontier Crew Cab - Price??

Seems the Nissans have rear main seal problems.

REAR MAIN SEAL LEAK
Also see #385 I purchased a 2000 Nissan CC XE 2x4
on Dec 21 1999. Almost immediately I noticed oil
drips in my driveway. Took me until 19 March to
even consider that it was my new truck. Crawled
underneath....BINGO!!!

Dealership has had my truck for a week. They claim that the parts are on back order from Nissan. Why are they on back order? Others with the same problem? Too much demand for rear main seals? Another week and I'm going into the dealership to really complain. Dealership has
been cooperative. Gave me a loaner to drive...some small 4 door nissan car. I don't want a car, I want my truck back. Already suck money into a new sound system and spray in bed liner w/stamped aluminum tailgate cap. Any others with oil leaks?

keanec · April 2000

Very good points. I agree every manufacturer makes lemons! What are the percentage of lemons is what counts ie. hwat are your chances of getting a bummer? And if you do, does your particular dealer take good care of you?

As for the sandbags, you might not want them if you have to get the revs up to get the torque. If the truck is an auto and you don't want to do a break stand, spinning tires might be what you need? Just a thought. I am really not a techy and I don't completely understand HP/Torque but judging by other comments in this forum it seems there are a lot more factors than just those two plain numbers.

fordsporttrac · April 2000

It would be nice if there was some way to count lemons.

As for the tug of war I was half joking about the sand bags. I guess what I was hinting to is if one vehicle is spinning its tires the other vehicle could win the tug of war with simple traction. The bed of the ST is so light that it may not get as much traction as the Nissan. But who knows? like you, I'm not that automotive technical myself.

And as for Dealers and Service, I haven't had the new truck serviced yet. But, with my old 4Runner I HATED the local Toyota dealer Sales but LOVED the same dealers Service Department. I can't say enough good things about my old Toyota's Service department. They were VERY honest. (Kind of hard to believe, but true!)

I hope when I start using the local Ford service they are just as good/honest.

fordsporttrac · April 2000

mahimahi,

I'm a bit confused about your post #174 you say

((but I can tell you this the Ford did sag (not alot like an explorer) but it did, when the trailer was hoked up as did the S-10. My point is that the Sport Trac has the same suspension as the regular exporer, which might explain Ford's reason to produce a composite bed.))

To me you are confusing suspension with towing capacity. How much the truck sags is related to the trailer tong weight and how stiff the suspension is. IMHO it is not directly related to the towing capacity. The ST which I would consider a hybrid has a softer ride and therefore the suspension is softer and it would sag more.

You can order the Payload Package. Did the ST you used have the "Payload Package #2" option? Have you checked your trailers tong weight? Every trailer has a range for the tong weight. I found in my area, most of the time no one checks the tong weight to verify the boat is loaded properly.

The trailer is supposed to carry the weight and the truck is supposed to pull it. Although I've see the opposite.

fordsporttrac · April 2000

mahimahi,

My apologies, I didn't catch the last line of your post 174. Looks like you have checked the tong weight of your trailer. So my question is did the ST you tested had the "Payload Package #2" option.

scape2 · April 2000

Whine?!! prove more like it!! Ford did not go belly up like Nissan did!@ Nor is owned like Nissan is. If a car company is building such great quality why did they go belly up@@??? and are now owned by Renault?? I also read this relationship is not fairing too well either. I wonder when Renault will change all the Nissan signs to Renault signs :-))
Take a look at www.carpoint.msn.com and see that Ford cars/trucks fair pretty doggone well. Also, if we are going by personal experience, both my Rangers we/are excellent. I can also name 7 Explorer owners that have had excellent reliability/quality wiht their Explorers. Which is still the number one seller, after 9 years and with all the competition.

gooba · April 2000

vince8 when are you buying the Sport Trac?

mahimahi · April 2000

That's a good question, to be honest with you, I don't know if it had that package. My guess is it didn't. My point was that when the back of a truck sags it has the tendency to 'fish-tail' easier while traveling. I know that everybody out there that's had a truck at one point or another, myself included, has loaded your pickup from Home Depot or where-ever with too much payload and felt this 'fish-tailing'. I believe it wouldn't hurt to put a helper spring on any of these trucks or as you mentioned get that package, it would probably be better for the truck in the long run. I hope this answers your question and that you enjoy your new truck!

cncman · April 2000

Vince;
Nissan never went "belly up" and is not owned by renault, define your terms or stop using misinformation. And why is it you never mention all of the extremely high sales increases for Nissan accross the board, even with out any renault products?

mahimahi · April 2000

Vince,

It seems the more you respond the more you show how little you really KNOW! You really showed you true colors in response #184. What's with the statement that you would like to hook a tow chain to both trucks...isn't that something uneducated 5 yr. olds say on the playground? It's clear to all of us (Crew Cab and Sport Trac owners)that you have no real experience with either vehicle. I say it's time for you to step up to the plate and drop the $25-$28K on the Sport Trac since you're already sold on it, then you can come on here and have some validity to your responses until then you responses just won't mean much!

BTW, you never answered my question, doesn't the 4.0L in the Ranger have a max horsepower of 160. I'm not looking for this answer to attack the Ranger. Just to prove to you that a truck that has less HP(in this case the ranger)can have a higher towing cap. than a truck that has more(the c.c. in this case. I know this is getting kind of confusing,this refers to your HP does matter issue.

ll7 · April 2000

Vince,
You are just plain annoying. You must have an inferiority complex about your beloved Ford products. That might explain why you are continually bashing Nissan to the point of totally misrepresenting facts (Nissan did not go belly-up and is not owned by Renault). As far as reliability of Nissans vs. Ford, refer to my post #63.

scape2 · April 2000

Ok, the chain thing was a bit overboard. But you are trying and trying to convince people the Nissan CC is actually more powerful than the Sport Trac. This just doesn't fly. It can't be with its 170Hp 200ft/lbs of torque vs the 205HP and 240ft/lbs of torque! Try as you may anyone can see the huge number mismatch.
Yes, the Ford Ranger 4.0 has 160HP and 225ft/lbs of torque at 2750rpms. Soon the same SOHC 4.0 in the Sport Trac will be available in the Ranger in both a 5spd automatic and a 5spd manual. Where is Nissans 5spd automatic?
It is no secret that Nissan is now controlled by Renault. Soon after the Renault take over several top Nissan Excecs stepped down. YOu folks are saying Nissan isn't owned or controlled??? and remains its own identity? You are greatly greatly mistaken and misinformed. Renualt now controls Nissan. You are not up on auto news. This was all over the net and at www.auto.com. I will eductate you all once again and find some links.
No, I don't own a Sport Trac. Have taken a ride in one though. A guy had one at one of my daughters basketball games. Interior was far superior to the Nissan CC in terms of comfort, fit and finish. Nor do I plan on owning one anytime soon. I am pleased and content with my 1998 Ranger XLT Supercab stepside 4.0 5spd 3.73 gears, offroad pkg, tow pkg, P265x75R16 all terrains, loaded to the max and more... I also use this truck as a 4x4 in my play time in the Cascade Ranger of the Northwest. This is my second Ranger and so far am quite pleased with its performance, reliability and quality.

cncman · April 2000

Well, gee VInce, thanks for educating me, I guess I misread all of those checks I get from Nissan, they really say Renault on them, Oh by the way, whenever you guys want, stop by my nissan, uh, I mean renault store, it's Baytown Nissan, uh, I mean, Baytown renault, well I don't know what I mean. Vince, my friend, if you knew anything about the Nissan/Renault thing, you would know that renault paid down Nissan debt and makes the financial decisions, and I noticed how quickly you changed
"owns" to "controls" after you were challenged. I guess it is all a matter of definition, but Nissan
does, contrary to your uneducated statement, retain it's own identity, if you did not read about the merger or whatever you want to call it, you would not even know what is going on. There is no difference here in the states at the dealerships or in the design studios. Renault had absolutely zero to do with the hottest vehicles in the market right now, like the Xterra, Crew Cab, the new Maxima and Sentra, all of which are big hits. These were all designed in NDI in California, starting years ago before there was even a talk of renault. So again, what does this have to do with which is a better Vehicle? Nothing. You always turn back to this when you get shut down with your "Me have torque, Torque Good" caveman argument you have been schlepping around here the last year or so.

I seem to remember you spouting off too that people shouldn't buy a Nissan because they were about to go "belly Up" and be an orphan car like a Hudson or something. Well, gee I sure don't remember you saying anything more the last few months about that, still believe it? I don't see how you walk around with both feet in your mouth all of the time.

gooba · April 2000

vince,if you do not own nor plan to own either a Sport Trac or Crew Cab Frontier,what are you doing on this board? I thought this was a Crew Cab and Sport Trac board. There are people with a vested interest on this board. Apparently you only want to spout numbers and other people's opinions about vehicles that you could care less about.It is apparent by your posts that you are the one that needs the education about vehicles.You remind me of the people who would come into the parts store and want the parts for their vehicle because of an article that came out in Hot Rod,or one of the other magazines. They would not read the rest of it and learn that all is not as it seems.Vince you also have to remember that Ford in their infiniter wisdom is putting a 3.0l V6 in the Ranger Edge truck for 2001. The other engines are optional.Your observations and opinions vary so widely that I personally think you would do good as a politician.Definetly as a spokesperson for Ford.

mahimahi · April 2000

Vince,

My God son....did you read any of my posts? If you can find in any of them that I said the Nissan Crew cab is more powerful than the Sport Trac, I'll buy you one!
Again, (I'm sorry for those of you who already got what I was saying) I was posting that the CREW CAB IS A BETTER TOW VEHICLE when it comes to towing heavy loads. To further my point it is better not becuase it's a Nissan but, because it's a pickup. If you and I were on a ranger vs. explorer page I'd be saying the same thing about the ranger. Then how would you argue me then? Nevermind don't answer that, I'm scared at what you might say. I also know that not everybody tows with their vehicle, I was posting my experiences for those that are considering either vehicle and plan on towing a heavy trailer.

mahimahi · April 2000

Vince,

In your reponses to my issue(towing) do you keep asking about a 5sp Auto from Nissan? You still need to turn the over-drive off when towing unless you want to burn up your transmission. So how does it help you towing? Just wondering.

mahimahi · April 2000

The question should read: Why do you keep asking about 5sp Auto from Nissan?...sorry

mahimahi · April 2000

I was just thinking that Ford might need that particular version of the 4.0L to have 5 speeds. Becuase that version requires a higher rpm range to attain its torque you would need taller gears to get that engine to rev but it would be horrible at highway speeds, so throw another gear in there, to bring up the highway speeds. (I think it's taller, I can never keep the two terms separate)Anyway, it's just a thought on why there might be a difference in offerings. I still don't think it would help in towing, because the torque in the Nissan is available @2800 rpms.

fordsporttrac · April 2000

cncman,

I think it would be fair if you and anyone else who is posting that is a dealer or employee of an auto related company indicate it in your profile. After reviewing your posts I see you are NOT hiding the fact that you are a dealer, but for speaking for Newbees to the list I feel we would like to know who is and who isn't.

This way I know when you are speaking about Nissan I know you have information that is probably accurate.

I notice you and Vince going at it quite a bit and I suspect we have 2 dealers fighting it out. :-) How about it Vince are you a dealer?

fordsporttrac · April 2000

I not automotive technical but from what little I
know I can tell no one is comparing apples to
apples.

All the stats being used are pulled from sales
material. You can argue the numbers till the cows come home but until you compare real world data its all statistical hype.

This thread seems to be related to muscle and
towing. IMHO the ST is a hybrid vehicle. A bit of luxury and a bit of truck. If you want muscle buy a full size Truck. With a 4ft bed and softer
suspension the ST is made for light hauling and a
smooth ride. That's what I brought it for. If I
wanted to haul a large boat 100 miles I would buy a full size truck.

Hurray for Nissan if the suspension is stiffer and it doesn't sag under a heavy load. I only tow 2% of the time prefer the softer ride of the ST the other 98% of the time. I also wouldn't try and tow a 2.5 ton trailer with ANY 6 cylinder.

IMHO, Ford is marketing the ST in the SUV 25-40
year old (have kids) market and NOT the Truck
market. The 3 CarSeat points, lower ground
clearance and soft suspension are a dead give away. Stop trying to make the ST a Full size Truck.

Nissan is marketing its vehicle in the 18-30 year
old market who want to do light off roading. Higher ground clearance, flared fenders, Mud flaps and a choice of wild colors is a dead giveaway. So is the lower MSRP and fewer options.

Ask yourself this... What do you plan on doing
with the vehicle?

Personally, I drive to work with the 6 CD player
on, the sun roof and rear windows open. On
Saturday I move a small couch for a friend or tow a tandem wave runner trailer to the boat ramp. If it snows I give it to my wife for her safety. The ST is a perfect combo for me.

mahimahi,

I disagree with the blanket statement that you
need to turn off Over Drive while towing. The only reason I would turn my Over Drive off when towing is IF I was towing a HEAVY 1.5+ ton trailer. There is no reason to turn off Overdrive while towing a ton or less.

gooba · April 2000

I have to disagree with your first statement about the comparisons.The Sport Trac is a competitor to the Frontier Crew Cab as well as the Dakota Crew Cab. The comparisons at least mine have to do with the 4wd version.The Sport Trac is a viable option to the Nissan and some of the comparisons were done in this arena.The hp/torque debate is not all relevant to just towing.Alot of time was spent in trying to get a Ford fanatic to understand some basic things and not make wide,general sweeping assumptions.Some of the reasons you stated for buying your Sport Trac were reasons that I decided to buy the Nissan.But you do make a very valid point that people have different needs and likes in a vehicle. The suspension difference that gives you a smooth ride on the road,results in excessive wheel hop in the 4wd version when you are taking it off-road,It is not for just towing.Mahimahi is correct in saying to turn off the od while towing.It is even recommended to only have the od on when you plan on traveling at highway speeds and this is with NO lOAD in or towed behind the vehicle.The extra load you put on the transmission in od could result in the burning out of the clutches.The vehicle will hunt in and out of od. Congrats on your Sport Trac and I hope it gives you good service and fulfills your needs.

mahimahi · April 2000

Fordsporttrac,

You know, I debated bringing up this issue for two reasons. First, I feared that it would seem like I was trying to degrade the Sport Trac and second, it would bore those who don't use their vehicle for towing. Especially to the majority of owners that use the vehicle the way you do. In fact my guess is that the majority of us that own a C.C. use ours the way you use your S/T (myself included). Except my situation is that instead of PCWs, I have a demo that has a gross weight of around 3500lbs. This is a common weight for most 18 to 21ft boats(which happens to be the most popular size sold), these aren't considered big boats at all. I'm sure there are some owners or potential owners that trailer more than 1200lbs. With this note you don't need a full size p/u or a v-8.

Anyway, my intention wasn't to fear-off a potential S/T buyer, but rather inform those that plan on towing anything with some weight that a pickup is better. The only reason Hp ever came up was because of a fellow ford fan. You can call my information 'disinformation' if you want, I wasn't the one writing my complete posts out of the Ford brochure(sorry if that wasn't intended to me). As for your OD you do what you want, its your tranny.

So I apologize to those that are completely bored with the towing issue, I promise I'll move on.

My glovebox is too small! I'm serious...it lacks about an inch for my manual to fit...Any Sport-Trac owners wanna trade? I have a grey interior so it needs to match, if it's tan I'm sure I can paint it. I'm just kidding trying to have some fun here! :-)
YOU GUYS HAVE A GREAT DAY!!!!

jeff555 · April 2000

Glad to see that the discussion is getting a little more civilized. It should be possible to take pride in one's truck without having to cut down someone elses choice. I was going to wait to see the Sport Trac before I bought, but I got tired of waiting, and got a Nissan Crew Cab at the end of January. Now that I have seen the Sport Trac, I am glad I got the Nissan. There is nothing wrong with the Ford, it is just not my kind of vehicle.

Even though I am well outside of both of the age ranges mentioned by fordsporttrac, I do have to agree with his assertion that the ST is aimed more at the luxury SUV market, and the CC is more utilitarian. That is why I like the CC. But like gooba says, the Sport Trac, the Nissan CC and even the Dakota Quad, are all competitors. They all accomplish the goal of carrying four people inside, while carrying the bulky and messy stuff outside. If your priorities include plush ride, and carrying 4 full sized people alot, the ST is probably better for you. If you want a somewhat shorter truck, with a slightly larger bed, smaller turning radius, more firm suspension, for $3k less, and can live with a smaller back seat, consider the Nissan Crew. If you want something closer to a full size truck, maybe the Dakota, or even the F150 is better for you.

Jeff

scape2 · April 2000

I am not the raving Ford fanatic some may think I am. I just stated the facts. Why is the Sport Trac rated to tow 5260lbs? if it can't do it? I have tried to find the Torque/HP curves for both the Nissan 3.3 and the Ford SOHC 4.0.
I also stated the suspension right out of Truck Trend April 2000 issue, a Motor Trend spin off. They had great things to say about the Sport Trac also. Its large interior, quality/fit/finish were up there too. They compliment the smooth revving V6, and smooth 5spd transmission offered. Someone in here kept claiming the Sport Trac can't tow like the Nissan CC because of suspension. I gave all the suspension specs, tow specs, engine HP/Torque, redline ratings. The Sport Trac is superior to the Nissan CC, live with it.

fordsporttrac · April 2000

Gooba,
You said;

>I have to disagree with your first statement >about the comparisons. The Sport Trac is a >competitor to the Frontier Crew Cab as well as >the Dakota Crew Cab. The comparisons at least >mine have to do with the 4wd version. The Sport >Trac is a viable option to the Nissan and some of >the comparisons were done in this arena.

I don't think you understand my statement. Yes they are competitors but in different markets. Would you say that the 18K Dodge Caravan competes with the 26K Chrysler Town & Country? The CC and the ST are in different target markets.

You also said;

>Mahimahi is correct in saying to turn off the od >while towing. It is even recommended to only have >the od on when you plan on traveling at highway >speeds and this is with NO LOAD in or towed >behind the vehicle.

The problem with that statement is NO WHERE in my owners manual does it say that. I would think Ford would be OVER Cautious in telling me what to do in the owners manual. It DOESN'T say what you say. It DOES say and I quote "Automatic Transmissions may shift frequently when driving up steep grades. Eliminate frequent shifting by shifting out of Overdrive."

The manual also says ;

Deactivate Overdrive when:
Driving with a heavy load
Towing a trailer up or down steep hills
Additional Engine Braking is desired.

Please point me to any documentation that supports what you say so I can compare. I see only references to "Steep Grades" and "Heavy Loads".

mahimahi;
You Said;

>I have a demo that has a gross weight of around >3500lbs. This is a common weight for most 18 to >21ft boats(which happens to be the most popular >size sold),these aren't considered big boats at >all.

Would this be the same trailer you towed with a ST in the earlier post? I assume you used the bumper hitch on the ST (since Ford doesn't sell recievers for the ST). From the owners manual of the ST and I quote;

"Towing a trailer of 3,500 lbs (1,588kg) or more requires a weight distributing hitch."

What I must assume is you overloaded the bumper hitch on the ST when you demo'd it. Did the other vehicles you demo'd have a weight distributing hitch?

You also said;
>I'm sure there are some owners or potential >owners that trailer more than 1200lbs.

In my previous post I referred to Tons. In your comments it appears you think a Ton is 1000 lbs. A ton is 2000 lbs. I said I would never try and tow 2.5 Tons with a 6 Cylinder. That is 5000 lbs. I also said I would not turn off over drive unless towing 1.5+ Tons. That is 3000+ lbs. or about the weight of your demo.

You also said;
>but rather inform those that plan on towing >anything with some weight that a pickup is >better.

If your gona tow 5000 lbs you should have an 8 cylinder vehicle with some weight. Just saying a pickup is not enough.

You also said;
>My glovebox is too small! I'm serious...it lacks >about an inch for my manual to fit...

Hey the Sport Trac has a Pocket just for the manual in the storage area.

jeff555,
You said;

>Even though I am well outside of both of the age
>ranges mentioned by fordsporttrac,

Hum, I hope your not driving and well under 18. Just kidding. Target Marketing is just a best guess. So I'm gona guess that your in the 18-30 year old range at heart.

You also said;
>But like gooba says, the Sport Trac, the Nissan >CC and even the Dakota Quad, are all competitors.

You also indicate that the ST & CC are competitors in the same target market. Would Nissan put a commercial for a CC on The Garden Channel or would it put it on MTV? I think MTV. Would BMW put a 60K car on MTV? (Yea I know Extreme example) Price of a vehicle determines the market its focused on. The ST's Base is higher than the CC. You may feel the ST is too expensive but that not my point. I'm talking about the target market of a CC vs a ST. They are definitely different. Do the vehicles have similar features? YES they do, but so do Corvettes and Ferraris. I certainly can't afford a Ferrari and I haven't seen an commercial on MTV for a Ferrari. (Yea I know another Extreme example)

What I'm trying to say is;
Sure Ford wants to steal sales away from Nissan but they are focusing there marketing dollars at a different "Target Market" then Nissan.

My point on the HP vs Torque vs Gear Ratio thread was the numbers used are coming from marketing materials. They are designed to look the best they can. Real world testing is setting a base line and testing against that line. If the test is how well does it work towing a 3500 lb trailer up a 10% grade at 60 MPH than that's great but lets compare apples to apples.

mahimahi;
In your trailer test, you used the same trailer but did they have similar hitches? Or was one a bumper and one a receiver?

Gooba,
Where can I find the information you speak about on Overdrive.

Ok sorry for the rambling.

My Glove Box is great but my Rear View Mirror is too low. Any Nissan CC owners wanna trade?

gooba · April 2000

Well,so much for the nice discussion on this board.I guess we are into nitpicking.So,let me respond to your eloquent response to what I and others had to say.Your example of the Dodge Caravan and the Plymouth Town and Country is correct if you want to get to the bottom line.But I believe most people that would be in the market for a mini van will first look at what is available in the mini van size and then weed out the ones that do not suit them for whatever reason.They are still mini vans.There are differences in options and quality,and price but it does not change the fact that it competes with all mini vans.The same holds true for the Crew cabs. When people are looking for a 4 door truck they are probably going to look at the Frontier,Dakota,and the Sport Trac.Price is not always the driving factor to determine the market that it is targeted at.It is apparent that when Nissan announced that it was finally going to make a Crew cab truck in the small truck arena,the other manufacturers decided they should offer something in this market to compete with Nissan.The easiest thing for Ford to do was modify the Explorer.Dodge lengthened their Dakota and offered alot of power.They were all apparently trying to offer something different for people who might want to purchase a truck.I will agree with you that your examples are extreme.Maybe you just want to play Devil's advocate.
As for my earlier post about the OD,I made a general statement.It is based on recommendations from transmission rebuilders and service managers.I will take your word that your owner's manual says what you so nicely stated.i know that there are other people that read these posts and I would rather make a conservative statement then one that may cost someone some money.So,if you are comfortable doing what you are doing,more power to you.Best of luck.
The hp/torque threads are not based om marketing materials. The hp/torque figures are true figures from the dyno of the engine. The manufacturer has to give those figures as being accurate.The debate centers on the practical application of the vehicle with known experiences of hp and torque values.It is how people use these vehicles day to day and how it reacted in certain situations.So we are comparing apples with apples,as long as we are comparing V6 engines and how they work in their respective vehicles.
Maybe we can get back to a civil discussion of the comparisons between these 2 fine vehicles.

mahimahi · April 2000

Gooba,
I agree with you, this should be civil. Also I agree that these are both wonderful vehicles. But,I feel that I must respond. This one's long and its all for fordsporttrac so here it is:

Wow!!!! I thought in your previous post (#208) you wanted "real world data". Well that's all I have given you but, you still discount it. What "real world data" have you given us?

First the glove box thing was a joke and I was actually making fun of my Nissan's glove box, but that's because I can admit that my Nissan isn't perfect and I don't have to be defensive about faults it might have. Plus I was trying to lighten up the page a little....oh well.

Secondly, I know what a ton is but thanks anyway. The 1200lbs(oops sorry, 4/5 of a ton) was referring to towing jet skis, ultility trailers and so on. You know it's funny how the ford fans(you know who I'm referring to)started out saying it's HP/Torque that matters in towing capacity to now it's the amount of cylinders. I've got some nitpicking for you. I was willing to let these particular statements slide but, now I can't hold back.
In YOUR blanket statements and let me quote YOU (from post #208): "I also wouldn't try and tow a 2.5 ton trailer with ANY 6 cylinders"
and:
(current post)"If your gonna tow 5000lbs(2.5 tons) you should have an 8 cylinder vehicle with some weight...."

Ok... guys according to fordsporttrac,we need to trade our trucks in and get a Infinity Q45. Come on why not it's a vehicle and it's got 8 cylinders. Well, that's if you want to tow 2.5 tons. Now here is the question, taking into account the ridiculous statements you made..What about the Dodge/Cummins combo?huh? That's right, it's 6 cylinders.

If you check my previous posts you would see that my statements weren't 'blanket'. I said that if a pickup and suv were in the same class the pickup is a better tow vehicle but between you three(zack1000, vince8 and now you) I got sick of repeating myself.

I did not use a receiver hitch on any of the vehicle that I test drove because(since you want to get specific) my demo's weight is 3385lbs. fully loaded w/fuel and gear. So I didn't need a receiver hitch or weight distributing hitch. BTW, only logic would have it, that with a receiver hitch it would only make it worse. You are putting the tongue weight even further away from the axle!

I'm going to go to several of the ford dealerships(svc. dept) around here and ask them what they recommend about the towing in O/D. They might tell you to do it, they get 10% gross profit on the job! j/k

But I will check it out anyway, if for nothing else my own curiosity.

mahimahi · April 2000

I know you gave all the specs, trust me we all saw them. Is it superior because you drove/towed with it or because the numbers are higher on paper? That's what we thought.
The specs on the suspension...what do they tell you, 'two stage leaf springs', softer ride right? Check my previous responses to forsporttrac on your suspension relation to towing. I never hammered it down to just one thing, read the previous responses. Understand this, nowhere did I say or imply that the sport trac is inferior, as you do about the crew cab but, I guess you do it to get a rise out of some nissan owners. I'm saying (again)that the c.c. is a better tow vehicle. I do have question for you, how does the interior relate to towing? I think you've been asked that before. I never saw the answer.

Nissan Frontier Crew Cab VS Ford Explorer Sport Trac

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