Oil change/fiascos

micweb · August 2005

ROTFLMAO

You said in part:

Right now, I'd guess that the last guy that did an oil change is the one going to pay. My theory would be he pushed it into the engine while either inserting the oil gun or while inserting a funnel. Man, that's a poor design, IMHO.

Yeah, they aren't called grease monkeys for nothing. I have lost two oil pans to overtightening of oil drain bolts. I asked what lb-ft of torque they were using, and they told me they tighten by feel. Yeah, right. I can well imagine an oil change person jamming the oil gun nozzle in there so it won't splash on the top of the valve cover or tip out. This may have happened all at once, or taken several oil changes to bend down and break off.

I think the prior oil changes are all partially liable. Sue them all!

But, the ROTFLMAO part is that if this were written about a Dodge Neon, we'd all be selling our Neons, but since it is Toyota, we are just thinking "that's poor design" not a catastrophe waiting to happen.

I WOULD push this with Toyota; they should have distributed decals or placards or new oil filler caps with warnings on them. If they are going to put a baffle in that location, it should be strong enough to withstand normal use and foreseeable misuse.

altair4 · August 2005

LOL! Actually, I was going to type "What a p*ss-poor design!", but I backed off so I wouldn't hurt anyone's gentler sensibilities.

burdawg · August 2005

I've been assuming all along that your talking about a 2.4L 4 cyl engine....That is correct isn't it?

hiltonmj · September 2005

I ran into the same problem with my 2003 Camry. Had an oil change done at a local garage. About 2000 miles later started to here a rattling noise. Brought the car to Toyota. They said the dound the baffle in the Timing Gear area. How did it get into the timing area??? The garage paid for the removal ($85.00) but still admitted that they could not have broken it off. My last oil changes prior to this one were done at the dealership. The people at LIA Toyota would not admit that this could have happended during an earlier oil change.

highroller · September 2005

Just curious, but how can someone that change's oil breakoff a baffle? And where is this usually located? I've had some people that i know hear some rattling noises from the engine. Appreciate the help.

alcan · September 2005

http://rav4world.com/tsb/EG007-02.pdf

highroller · September 2005

Thank's for the link alcan. Is it mere possible that an oil funnel can reach all the way down there and bend it, of course, by pouring the oil through the oil cap that's located on top of the engine?

micweb · September 2005

The baffle plate is so close to the neck of the filler, that you can't insert a funnel or automatic dispenser and just walk away to do other work on the car during an oil change, the dispenser will tilt over and fall out.

Imagine a gas tank filler neck that had an obstruction so you couldn't push the gas nozzle in far enough to stay put and had to stay there and hold it instead of washinig your windshield.

Human nature is to push the thing in harder so it will stay.

Hence the problem, with baffles broken by mechanics doing simple oil changes.

I think this was a design flaw on the part of Toyota, and they should be giving away new oil caps with warning notes on them. You have to take into account "foreseeable misuse." Same thing with drain plugs and stripped oil pans; it's about time the manufacturers come up with a better system. Oil change mechanics are supposed to check the manual for the torque on the drain plug, then torque it on with a torque wrench, but instead they do it by feel. Plus, they forget or refuse to change washers at every oil change (as required by Honda) or use the same force with a washer system (Honda, Toyota) as with the clever GM and Ford "rubber gasket ring on the bolt" designs (which don't give the same level of resistance back when you install them, since the rubber gaskets are designed to compress to form a tight seal).

I have given up on anybody but dealers to do my work. I just shop for the cheapest, most competent dealer around and take them donuts.

joe3891 · September 2005

>

I can see you are not a mechanic, I have never seen a oil drain plug tightened with a torque wrench. Of the millions tightened every year very few are stripped.

jlflemmons · September 2005

besides cross-threading is that folks don't realize that there is no pressure in the oil pan and that drain plug is not going to blow out of there. Given a good gasket, the plug just needs to be snug and all will be well. If you ever see someone using a 1/2 drive ANYTHING to tighten the drain plug, it is too tight.

micweb · September 2005

Thanks. I didn't know quite how to respond to the previous poster who doesn't believe me that there is a whole lot of oil pan bolt stripping going on out there, and that it is due to aggressive overtightening, and that the bolt is designed only to make a good seal with the gasket (Ford, Chevy) or one crush washer (Honda) and NOT to hold things together. There are a lot of strong people out there who overtighten drain plug bolts when not required. Ther are a lot of oil change shops that don't carry, or run out of, Honda one crush washers and reuse them or, as happened to me, use loctite etc. to hold the bolt in (that happened after I specifically asked the service writer if they carried Honda washers).

That's why I only go to dealers now, and try to use the same dealer consistently. They still make mistakes, but they will replace the oil pan if the thing gets stripped.

sunilb · September 2005

- the mityvac worked like a charm... quick and clean!
- the filter was easily accessible from above (didn't have to get under the car)... had to use a cap-type filter wrench to get the old filter off.
- switched over to synthetic (cost a bit more, but I'll be using 1/2 as much of the stuff over time due to less frequent changes)

jlflemmons · September 2005

Many years ago as a young pup I did oil changes among other duties in an Oldsmobile shop. The Olds engines used a crush washer that had to be replaced with each change. At some point, they switched to a solid copper washer which worked equally well. I always thought it funny that folks would over-tighten the drain plug, but follow the directions on the oil filter to tighten 2/3 turn after gasket contact. We always found that if you didn't go one full turn after contact, many would leak a bit. And with one full turn, never had a problem with them leaking, or being stuck when it came time to replace.

I actually saw a Toyota where the filter had be put on so tight that the canister twisted in half when I tried to remove it. Took about an hour, but finally got the thing off without losing the threads or damaging the gasket seat. Would like to have spoken to the gorilla that put that one on!

swschrad · September 2005

I tried everything to get the filter off when I got back to doing my own changes, no go. put a screwdriver through the oil filter, and twisted it promptly into two jagged and sharp halves. I finally upgraded to a big enough vice-grip with curved jaws, clamped right on the base, and pulling alternately in both directions (because by this time I was so, uh, redfaced that I forget which way to turn it, finally cracked the washer loose, and in another quarter turn I was able to spin it off by hand. I don't know what they tightened it with, and never went back to find out.

highroller · September 2005

In every oil change i do, i always had trouble with my oil filter. I always tighten my oil filter 2/3 turn after contact. Whenever it's time to change filter, I tried using the cup and clamp wrench. The clamp wrench would "squeeze" the oil filter bending it inwards. The cut and the clamp type oil filter wrenches are always no help for me. The cup type wrench which was made of plastic, made the oil filter slide past the twisting of the wrench. Basically there's no traction between the filter and the cup wrench. And yes, i got the correct size wrench. The oil filter was always slick/oily if touch by bare hand. Even if i try to wipe it with a clean towel, that's never a help to get the slickness on the oil filter off. So to get my oil filter off, I would wait for about an hr or two (when the engine & oil finally COOLED down). By then, it was extremely easily to twist the oil filter off by hand. The oil filter's seal was hard to twist off because it was sealed tight probably due to the oil being still hot.
It's time consuming i know, but i rather change my own oil than letting anybody else do it. Plus, it's much cheaper doing it yourself yes?

alcan · September 2005

Way back when I was swinging wrenches full time I ran into more than one Chev with the filter so tight that the threaded neck of the filter adapter, which is bolted to the block and which the filter spins onto, snapped off. The Chev-Olds store I worked at kept them in stock.

jlflemmons · September 2005

Yep, we kept those at the parts house I worked at in college. We called those type of mechies "Gorilla-Boys". Funny thing that the two best mechanics I ever worked with were both around 5'8" and 150lbs soaking wet. One was a soft-mannered Alabama boy, the other a hot-tempered bohemian from Texas. But if you ever had a really tough problem they were the go-to guys in the shop.

dtownfb · October 2005

I own a 2000 Intrigue and a 2004 Quest minivan and I want to start changing the oil myself. I already know what filters and oil to use for both vehilces but not sure if I should use a ramp or a jack and stands? Any suggestions.

jlflemmons · October 2005

Either well placed jack stands or ramps will do the trick. Personally, I prefer jack stands as some ramps are difficult to clear with the air dam under the bumper. Also, the ramps will make it difficult to slide in from the side.

For my Elantra, I use a floor jack to raise the whole front end, lifting on the crossmember. Then I lower the car onto jackstands on each side rail of the engine cradle. This gives very solid support and balance when working underneath.

rowlandj · October 2005

I find that ramps make the job go a bit faster and are somewhat easier to use. A few caveats for ramps. Make sure you get ones that won't 'slide' as you drive up them, some of the older 'bent metal' rams can do this. Also, be sure that the wheels are dry when using the ramps to avoid potential wheel spin while driving on the ramps.

Jacks and stands are fine too and are better in some ways as already noted above. This combo will also serve you better if you get into brake work and tire rotations as part of your maintenance routine.

JR

imidazol97 · October 2005

I made my own ramps out of treated 2 x 10 pieces. I cut the ends at an angle. and nailed them together. Works great. It's 4 layers tall.

micweb · October 2005

Belts and suspenders...ramps AND jackstands...if you pants fall down, you'll laugh, if your vehicle falls on you (or slides down the ramp, or shoves the ramp out from under the wheels), your local lube shop will have the last laugh...

isellhondas · October 2005

For years I changed my own oil. What a PITA!

Dirty job, taking a risk of getting under my car, have to dispose of the old oil etc..

And, for what? Save 20.00...maybe?

No thanks!

richardson · October 2005

I've changed my oil for years without raising the vehicle. I just slide under the the car a little bit. The last car I was forced to raise was a 95 Escort. Jim

imidazol97 · October 2005

That's what I'd done since my 67 Mustang. But the two LeSabres have gotten too hard to get the filter wrench on and have room to pull without raising at least the right wheel up on a ramp or jack.

dtownfb · October 2005

Thanks for all your input everyone. I'll take a look at what Advanced Autoparts has available. It looks like I am leanign toward the jack and stands.

div2 · October 2005

On my 318ti and 528i I use a 3 ton floor jack at the LF jacking point. I riase the car until the LF wheel is @4" off the ground. I then stick a 4x6 block of wood under the tire. Next I pull the plug, remove the 4x6, and lower the car to allow the oil to drain completely. After the sump has drained I repeat the lift procedure to reinstall the plug(the oil filter elements are accessed topside-quite simply, I might add). My Wrangler OTOH, sits high enough that I only have to slide underneath to pull the plug and filter. I have a local shop that accepts the used oil. I may be only saving a few dollars, but at least I know for certain that the proper oil and filter are used.

gonogo · October 2005

Its obvious you have never used ramps, safest way to raise a vehicle.

imidazol97 · October 2005

I have used the jack under only one side of the car after I drained the oil. I lifted just enough that I could get the oil filter wrench on underneath more easily. If the jack failed, the car wouldn't fall far enough on the bounce to injure me.

I had a bumper jack on a Cutlass long ago that dropped one time while I was jacking up the car. The dealer never asked a question when I showed up and asked how to handle it... He had that thing out of my hand quick and had a new one from the parts department and said thanks for bringing it in right away.

Jacks scare me; the screw jacks do it less, but they could break too.

micweb · October 2005

I know one person crushed (survived) when a ramp collapsed (weld failure) and one that died when a jackstand collapsed (failure of the cotter pin). Sad but true, there are product defects out there which is why its best to have two methods of support.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2005

Just don't buy $2.99 jackstands. That's the problem. If you can lift them with one finger, don't use them.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2005

Just don't buy $2.99 jackstands. That's the problem. If you can lift them with one finger, don't use them. The cheap ones are stamped with little dinky pins that hold them up, the good ones are castings with rachet sides and a lock lever.

highroller · October 2005

I have a lowered accord, and the ramps were clearly very difficult for me. In my opinion, ramps that can be bought at autozone, oreilly's, pepboys, etc. are very dangerous because if you're not careful, you can force your car to go over the ramp causing your car to be stuck on top of the ramp. It is best to get a heavy ton floor jack and lower your car onto the jack stands. Since my car is about only 3 inches above the ground, i use a long thick piece of plywood and get my wheels on top of that to raise my car up onto the jack stands.

isellhondas · October 2005

As dumb as that may sound, I've seen this done!

jlflemmons · October 2005

As a young man I had access to a pneumatic jack that could lift the entire front or side of a car. I placed it under the frame rails on the side and began lifting. Just as the wheels cleared the ground, one of the jack arms slipped off the frame rail and caused the jack to whip violently back, dropping the car and slamming me backwards into a wall before launching into the air at full extension (no car to compress it anymore) and crashing to the floor only feet away.

Results: One large dent in the side of the car, several cracked ribs, and one kid that learned to never, ever trust a jack no matter how "commercial grade" it may be.

isellhondas · October 2005

Scary story...I had a visual.

After spending my life in and around shops, I've seen some scary things.

Like s truck split rim blowing apart...

swschrad · October 2005

they are regularly widowmakers. generally nowadays they blow up in the rim cage, but had a case in the paper last year in which one blew up being rolled into the cage. that one wasn't fatal, IIRC, but might as well have been, lots of neuro rehab.

gonogo · October 2005

I have used a pneumatic jack many times, front or rear lift. I have never even thought to lift from the side, a death trap for sure.

isellhondas · October 2005

Firestone used to make a split rim we called "suicide rims". These had a NASTY habit of letting go when they were being bolted onto the trucks.

jlflemmons · October 2005

This particular unit was suited for bumper or frame lift. Unfortunately, the lifting pad at the end of the arm didn't fully engage the frame.

alcan · October 2005

No, it isn't. I regularly use an air jack to lift one side of a vehicle, position two of my 6 ton axle stands usually at the factory jacking points, then roll the jack around to the other side and repeat the process. As a veteran technician (licensed for 36 years), college automotive instructor, and a person working by myself in my shop at home, I'm extremely aware of how fast an improperly supported car can come down. There's nothing at all wrong with lifting a car one side at a time if it's supported properly.

wtd44 · October 2005

I use hydraulic automotive floor jacks that scoot into position on their rollers. If I have any need to get the slightest bit under the vehicle, I use jack stands as insurance. When rotating tires in an X pattern, I admit I seldom bother getting out the jack stands.

burdawg · October 2005

Pretty much ditto for me. Check that fluid level in your floor jack from time to time, I haven't seen one yet that doesn't seep a little.

motley327 · November 2005

On Monday I took my 1995 Chevy z71 in to get an oil change and lube. No problems, in and out. Today, (Friday) I am driving down one of the busier streets in my town, trying to get around someone going 10-15 mph slower than the posted limit. I get my opening, start changing lanes (adding acceleration), get in front of the slower car and I hear a bang under the hood, notice some smoke behind me and wonder whats up. I drive a couple of more miles and notice the truck is running rough, but not smoking, get to the next stoplight and see I have no oil pressure. I park the truck asap. I look under the hood and under the truck and see oil dripping and all over the under side of the truck. Finally I notice there is no oil filter anymore.

I contact the place that changed the oil, they actually come out to see it, and I have the truck towed to my home. I call the manager back and he says it not their fault because he isn't getting the whole story. Something about how its impossible for a filter to just fall off. (I checked where I usually park at home and at work and there is no oil drips, the filter wasn't leaking slowly.)

Later, I went back and found the oil filter. The filter has the ?bolt? that it would normally screw onto the engine, in it.

My questions are...Should I refill the truck with oil and see what it sounds like? I drove 3 or 4 miles, could have I messed up the engine? (already has 240,000 miles on it). Could refilling with oil and restarting cause even more severe damage?

Sorry 'bout the long post. I just can't believe this happened and the oil change place is not taking blame.

Mr_Shiftright · November 2005

Call your local legal aid, an attorney, or get info at Small Claims Court and see what the damage limits are.

Unless an oil filter is welded on, chances are it can come off as easy as it goes on.

Your truck might be okay but really I don't think I'd touch it just yet, as you might destroy evidence that you'll need.

imidazol97 · November 2005

If the filter had the screw-on bolt in it, doesn't that indicate something else happened that might not be due to having replaced the oil filter at the quicky lube?

It's too late now, but stopping when I heard a bang would have been my immediate response. Sometimes road debris can kick up and hit. Still I stop and take a look! I'm assuming the filter was found about where the bang occurred along the travel route?

I keep thinking of the magic additive tests where they show the motors running for a long time with just the oil left on the bearings and no new oil being pumped to the motor. Remember where they drained out all the oil to show the additive they were selling on TV would let your motor run forever it was so good?...

jlflemmons · November 2005

Chevy engine + overtightened oil filter = broken filter lug in the mount. That's why we always carried the replacement part in stock. The mount for a Chevy oil filter is replaceable, and fortunately so.

Best guess? Filter was over-tightened cracking the threaded port that retains the filter and provides oil flow path. When you accelerated around the other car, your engine speed kicked up the oil pressure and "bang" no more filter. I don't know how many miles are on your engine, but assuming it has seen many oil changes this could have occured at an earlier time. But considering the time lapse between the last oil change and the failure you might need to get a lawyer. Your engine is probably toast.

isellhondas · November 2005

O.K....that makes perfect sense.

I didn't know those mounts were that fragile.

It could have been cracked before and the final over tightening pushed it past it's limits.

With those extreme miles on that truck, this is going to be very hard to prove.

Mr_Shiftright · November 2005

In small claims you really don't need the same level of proof like say at a murder trial :P . You just have to convince the judge/referee/whomever that the lube place had a high probability of cause in the matter.

If you let someone else work on the truck, this does dilute your case but if you are a witness while the lube place replaces your oil and filter and starts your truck up, and if it sounds okay and has good oil pressure---well then you might have a hard time proving that you suffered damages. I'm no attorney but I do know that if you want to be the aggrieved party you need some tangible grievance.

So really, without obvious damage I don't think you have a case here in my amateurish opinion.

Yes an engine can indeed run without oil but not at road speeds---that's nonsense. At idling or putt-putting around the block, yep, you can do that and probably get away with it.

imidazol97 · November 2005

The broken ends of the oil filter screw stud would show if the cracking was recent or if cracking occurred and then existed a while and the oil change place was unlucky enough to have put the filter on the time the fracture was going to complete.

Oil change/fiascos

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