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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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Then you'll have a great buy on a car with good handling, good power/room, and iffy resale (Fulan), and a reliable underpowered good-handling car that is priced beyond its small interior and dismal fuel economy should allow (Jetta).
Yes, indeed I have. Thank you for asking.
By the way, the drive I had in the Mazda last night was beautiful. I think the small size adds alot to its nimbleness. I am interested in seeing what they do with the next one. The Mazda6 also comes well optioned for drivers with radio controls in the steering wheel, leather wrapped steering wheel and shifter, and manu-shift standard in even the base model. Also has ABS and traction control. Very nice cars.
Comparison: Avalon got 16 mpg and our Honda Pilot gets around 17 mpg.
What is amazing about this, I think, is that a very heavy Pilot, gets close to the same mileage as the Altima. Hondas do very well, in the real world.
That's given that you have drived those cars before, and you have right? "
First of all, I have never claimed the Fusion nor Milan to be the "best" in this class. What I will claim however is they are viable alternatives..
The Passat is way, way expensive when comparing to the Accord/Camry/Altima/Fusion/Milan/Sonata. I don't even feel its even in this class. My feelings are the Passat goes up against more like the Maxima, 500/Montego, Acura, Lucerne, type vehicles. I don't think I bashed the Passat. the Passat is a nice vehicle. Spendy for what you get, but hey its your money..
I did test drive all your normal family sedans. Altima, Accord, Camry, Sonata ect. I found the Fusion to be the right feel of driving for me. It is very sporty, a very confident driver of a vehicle. I have pushed the car through the twisties and it handles like its on rails. The Fusions value/quality/fit/finish/styling are what won me over..
This would prove to be quite a problem for Toyota. I am also hearing the Avalon has had its issues too??
I have a co-worker who has a 2005.5 Jetta package 2. He has had it for just over a year with no issues...
and for sc...'s sake too!
Hmmm...
The 2.3L I4 is completely designed and built by mazda. Ive driven this I4 on plenty of occasions, and i think its a nice 4cyl engine, very smooth and high revving. I think the only negitive is, the 5spd auto thats its attached to. The 5spd auto is horrible, its saps power, surges and downshifts untimely This engine is plenty for the mazda6, but id go with the manual tranny to get the most out of this engine.
Love the Altima too.
What a surprise - the Pilot has turned out to be better than the Toyota Sienna it replaced, and the Altima is way better than the woeful 2005 Avalon it replaced.
Toyota sure is going downhill fast. We're now Honda and Nissan converts.
Accord LX-SE invoice less $750 = $19,200 w/ATX
Fusion SE inv. less $250 discount and $1000 rebate = $18,000
(this is with ATX, side air bags, ABS, and alloys)
Milan = $18,400 (options and pricing like the Ford)
Mazda6i sport invoice less $3000 rebate = $18,500 w/ATX
Alternatively the Ford 6 year financing is worth, very conservatively, at least $2000 (after taxes).
The price difference between highest and lowest price (Accord and Fusion) is therefore $1200 to $2200+, depending on how you want to calculate it.
A difference of $1000 to $2000 has little to no impact on my choice. But it did result no further consideration to the less desireable (to me) Accord, due to the (too large, to me) price premium.
OTOH, the price difference between the more desireable (to me) Mazda6 and Milan or Fusion (in order of my preference) made it more certain that I would go for the 6. If the Milan were $3000 less than the 6, this would be a tougher decision for me.
I feel I let go a good opportunity with the 0% at 72 months. Has any other manufacturer given this deal? Does it happen at least once a year from certain ones?
IIRC GM is doing 0% up to 60 months PLUS bonus cash depending on the vehicle. Ford's 0% goes up to 72 months but the cash is a separate deal.
DCX does the 0% up to 72 months from time to time. Seems to be popular around model year clearance time.
I traded my '04 Mazda6 in last Thursday for a nearly loaded '06 Mustang GT. I was able to use my X-Plan with the 0% for 72 months and got a really sweet, with a manual tranny no less, ride for a great price. I couldn't pass it up! No loss on the 6 (leased) either. They bought it outright.
Toyota sure is going downhill fast.
Not based in fact but it's one opinion among many.
You've got to be kidding. Most other car companies would love to be going down that same hill, I bet.
I've never been a fan of Toyota, personally. But I certainly wouldn't say they are going down hill. Toyota has many loyal fans.
also, another person was wondering if the mazda 6's v-6 had vvt...yes it does. but it is not nearly as advanced as vtec in the honda engines. at 5k rpm, there is a big surge in my 6, but rarely do I use this. only on twisty roads with no traffic :shades:
and another clarification...the duratec 3.0, I'm 90% sure is not totally a ford engine...I remember reading it was originally developed by porsche. not that this matters...all I care is that it has had a pretty good track record and is used in such cars as the noble M400(extremely high performance car from the UK). although it does have less HP than the altima, at least there is not torque steer like I felt in my test drive of the Nissan. and in the end, 0-60 times in the mid 6 seconds (i have an mtx; add a second for the atx) is plenty fast for a midsize family sedan!
Asian: Average driving dynamics/Good reliability
Domestic: Below average driving dynamics/Average reliability
European: Good driving dynamics/Below average reliability
So, pick your poison..."
sorry, don't intend to be mean, but this is a horrible oversimplification. and I know you are talking about generalities, but to say that asian cars can be grouped together like that is not accurate or fair. each model has their characteristics and I think there is sufficient space in this forum to discuss all of them without painting with too broad of a brush.
and when given a choice between a passat at 30k, or a TL or IS300, g35 or 3series, I'd have a hard time choosing the passat. and really, these cars are in a completely different class I think. the VW model for this comparison should be the Jetta.
Do the Asians have the better mpg to power ratio?
Do the German cars tend to be safer cars to drive?
Do the Domestics tend to be not so over priced?
The Duratec also had some Cosworth influence besides Porsche, and Mazda made a LOT of tweaks to it before putting it in the 6, notably the VVT and different cylinder heads. It's a VERY reliable engine, having been used in different forms in the Probe, Contour, Taurus, etc., and a lot of 6 owners are former Contour (SVT and non-SVT) owners that bought the V6 without question.
although it does have less HP than the altima, at least there is not torque steer like I felt in my test drive of the Nissan. and in the end, 0-60 times in the mid 6 seconds (i have an mtx; add a second for the atx) is plenty fast for a midsize family sedan!
Couldn't agree with you more on all points. My test drive in the Altime 3.5SE was disappointing to say the least. Yes, the power was great, but keeping it in a straight line when leaving an intersection was a problem. Handling was unimpressive as well, you can really feel the weight of the V6 when cornering, much more than the 6. Between that, the cheap-looking interior, and the price (the 3.5SE w/manual was hard to find, and therefore much harder to negotiate down), I passed.
My 6, OTOH, has been nothing but a gem. Excellent power, handling, and braking, a nice interior, great styling inside and out, all for a great price. The only problem in two years and 35K miles is a faulty gas cap that tripped the CEL, fixed under warranty.
And for those people that think that Toyota is in trouble, don't get your hopes up. The Asian manufacturers (not just in cars, in almost every field) have a pattern of learning from their mistakes and not only fixing them, making the next product much better. And most people I know would still buy a Toyota product in a second, even if GM or Ford or Chrysler products were proven more reliable. Toyota built up a great reputation over the past 30 years, it won't disappear in a few months.
Just for one example of why this is wrong...Honda and Toyota are known for high reliability. Mazda, Nissan, Mitsubishi are about average. OTOH, the handling and ride of Mazda is certainly above average.
My sieve (3.8L ford V6) is one of the reason's I'd rather get the 4 cylinder Mazda6.
I believe it's just the 3.8L. Totally different engine with different design.
IIRC, The Duratec was never offered in 3.8L form, nor have I heard any major problems with leaking gaskets.
While the Duratec wasn't a torque monster, it was more than adequate to make an entertaining ride with a manual trans.
The car also saw track duty in driving events, so I have absolutely zero complaints with that vehicle and its durability.
The engine was great. To bad I had quality issues with everything else with the car. Ended up trading it in on a Jetta in 2000 because I couldn't take it anymore (and yes the Jetta was perfectly reliable for me).
The SVT 2.5 Duratec just loved to rev and smooth too. Without watching the tach, I'd often hit the 7200rpm rev limiter cause it was so willing to rev. Torque wasn't a strong suit, but it was a lot of fun when the variable intake switched @ 4500rpm into lets go mode. I've yet to drive a FWD domestic car that is as entertaining to drive as the SVT Contour was. I just loved autocrossing it. Particularly when going up against GM cars in the same class. I just ate them up.
The closest thing I've driven to the SVT Contour is a Mazda 6.
The 4 cyl zetec has been a pretty good engine for us, 140,000 miles on the '95...hoping it lasts until the daughter graduates from college in May.
Passat – Total: 5,003; Retail: 4,918 (Fleet:2%)
Altima – Total: 17,669; Retail: 15,143 (Fleet: 14%)
Milan – Total: 3,490; Retail: 2,970 (Fleet:15%)
Fusion – Total: 13,612; Retail: 11,053 (Fleet:19%)
Camry - Total: 41,892; Retail: 34,084 (Fleet: 19%)
Mazda6 – Total: 6,192; Retail: 4,236 (Fleet:32%)
G6 – Total: 17,516; Retail: 10,107 (Fleet: 42%)
Sonata – Total: 14,039; Retail: 6,978 (Fleet: 50%)
Impala – Total: 26,480; Retail: 11,969 (Fleet: 55%)
Malibu – Total: 17,662; Retail: 7,012 (Fleet: 60%)
Source: link title
Impala, Sonata, G6, Malibu all above 40%!
Mazda6 was surprisingly high.
As usual, the Accord leads in retail sales.
With many FLEET sales, that means that a lot of 1-2 year old used models will flood the market, driving down resale value. It also represents where the "bang-for-the-buck" cars tend to lie, since rental companies aren't likely to shell out more money for "refinement," "style," or "fun-to-drive" cars, with the exception of the Mazda 6(fun to drive).
A lot of the Toyota fleet sales of all vehicles goes into the TRAC program which in 6-8 months remarkets them through the Used Car depts of the respective TRAC stores. It's a huge benefit to the participating stores.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Lame, but nice attempt. Its also an indicator as to how well a particular vehicle is selling. If a manufacturer has the demand to sell a car retail, it will. Toyota was tied into some existing fleet contracts which will be expiring and that accounts for some, too. But all of these cars with 30+ fleet indicates these are models that do not have high demands.
I understand that the Sonata is a better car, etc, but its not going to have good retail value. That's a virtual guarantee with that many fleet cars.
I think the Fusion fleet number is good news, too, but my question is what happens when the Taurus is not longer available to fleets? I wonder what the 500 is doing.
I just returned from a trip which involved a bunch of rental cars at various Hertz locations. Still quite a few Tauruses around. Hertz has really diversified since they are no longer owned by Ford, so there were also a lot of Impalas an Sonatas. That seems to be the bread and butter of the passenger car fleet. They also had a bunch of Subaru Outbacks, Pontiac G6's and various SUVs. One red Camry SE (odd trim for Hertz) at Seattle.
I ended up with a Mustang, a Nissan Murano, and an Explorer.
All this information is offered in the link I provided. You can even look at the trucks/SUV's at this link .
The Ford Five Hundred is selling at about 31% to fleets.
Why is it lame? Please explain why having Sonatas from fleet sales (whatever the fleets are) "flooding the market" will hurt resale values, but having even more fleet-sale Camrys hitting the resale market won't have an effect on Camry's resale value. Also please explain why Toyota is different because it is "tied into" fleet deals. Don't you think Hertz et. al. have contracts with other automakers that tie them into selling a certain number of cars to fleets?
It is a reminder that percentages don't tell the whole story, whether it's fleet sales or depreciation or whatever.
I was suprised at the number of Camrys going to fleet, but if you look them up on Autotrader, the number if 1-2 year old Camrys and Accords for sale pale in comparison to the domestics.
The bottomline is most people seem willing to pay more for an Accord/Camry vs. the others. Supply is a big part of the resale value, but you still have to have a willing buyer.
Out of 1700+ dealers in the US & C I'd guess that 500 of them are TRAC stores with 5-50 TRAC Camry's in each fleet. As you noted all or nearly all are 4c LE's
=======> Aug 2006 vs 2005 ...... YTD 2006 vs 2005
Accord* .. 34,504 .. 46,153 .. -28.0% .. 250,663 .. 258,514 .. -3.0%
Memo: Accord
Hybrid 499 2,336 -79.4% 4,248 11,651 -63.5%
Civic* .. 31,549 .. 34,762 .. -12.6% .. 225,212 .. 203,673 .. 10.6%
Memo: Civic
Hybrid 3,411 4,146 -20.8% 21,841 19,106 14.3%
MY changeover?
Curious.
Sales have been strong all year, so that drop could be due to dealers running out of '06s.
A lot of dealers and car makers run ads with low prices just to get you on the lot. They may only have one model that is specifically on sale.
In Birmingham, Serra Honda is out of 2006 Accords now. Only 2007s on the lot (very few Accords period, and only 3 coupes!)... I'd attribute the lower numbers to lack of inventory of 2006 models, at least here in Alabama that is.
Here's a tidbit from my local Hyundai dealer: Hyundai is ramping up production of I4 Sonatas in Alabama to partially offset an expected shortage of Elantras, due to the 2007 Elantras not arriving until January, due to the recent strike in Korea.
It most certainly was, in my eyes!
Here's a tidbit from my local Hyundai dealer: Hyundai is ramping up production of I4 Sonatas in Alabama to partially offset an expected shortage of Elantras, due to the 2007 Elantras not arriving until January, due to the recent strike in Korea.
I know it belongs in the news&views section, but on what scale is this strike (if you know)? What caused it?
I think making more I-4 cars is a good idea; people still are valuing efficiency more than they did 5 years ago, despite the recent small price drop in gasoline. Paying $2.61 a gallon looks great when you compare it to $3.02 of one year ago, but looks awful when you compare to the $1.77 per gallon in B'ham of 2 years ago, or $1.40 of three years ago.
(Gas prices referenced from BirminghamGasPrices.com, a spinoff of www.gasbuddy.com... a really handy site that operates in MANY cities around the nation, from Akron to Worcester...check it out!)
I am disappointed the 2007 Elantra will be delayed, because it will be one of the least expensive and most fuel-efficient ICE mid-sized cars available, with the possible exceptions of the Versa and Sentra. (Yes, the Versa is rated a mid-sized car by the EPA, imagine that!)
There's no question that the Camry will retain its resale value better than the Sonata, but given the incidence of reported problems on the new Camry - now covered extensively by the mainstream media, not just by Edmunds.com forums - the Camry may no longer be the darling it once was in the long term. The large percentage of owners are happy, but it's the vocal minority who gets the coverage, and this will eventually affect Toyota.