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People have been asking about marketshare and numbers of complaints that led to the recalls.
Here are just a few blurbs about those topics....
http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-GreenBusiness/idUSTRE61904Q20100210
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601101&sid=acKLvp0eaSw4
Don't remember if this has been posted yet about Toyota's quality...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35311172/ns/business-autos/
People have been asking about marketshare and numbers of complaints that led to the recalls.
Here are just a few blurbs about those topics....
http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-GreenBusiness/idUSTRE61904Q20100210
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601101&sid=acKLvp0eaSw4
Don't remember if this has been posted yet about Toyota's quality...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35311172/ns/business-autos/
Yeah, exactly! LOL More like they are scared like crap because Toyota only tells their owners what they want them to know, not what they need to know. If it makes Toyota look bad, you can forget about them coming forward and taking responsibility.
The culprit? Faulty software.
The culprit? Faulty software.
“The technology eliminates the mechanical link between the driver’s brake pedal and the brakes, substituting an electrical link that actuates the brake calipers. Customer complaints were linked to the failure of software for the brake system. When the system failed, the hydraulic system took over. But that resulted in a longer stopping distance and additional brake pedal effort by the driver,” according to an Autoweek story in December, 2005.
Toyota woes follow years of slipping quality :lemon:
Giant automaker ramped up quickly to become world's leader
Evidence has been building for years, however, that Toyota may have sacrificed its reputation for excellence to the quest for market share and that, in its smugness, it may have ignored its customers and its own management principles.
“Toyota seems to have taken a page out of the playbook from the bad old days of the Detroit Three — when vehicles were designed and built to the lowest common denominator — and when 'good enough' was good enough,” observed Peter De Lorenzo, industry blogger and author of “The United States of Toyota,” a book charting Toyota’s growth in the U.S.
Blow to reputation
The latest blow to its Toyota's sterling reputation came Tuesday, when company officials announced they would recall 437,000 hybrid vehicles worldwide for braking problems. The newest version of its flagship Prius hybrid was among the autos recalled.
The announcement boosted the number of Toyota vehicles recalled since October to more than 8.4 million, one of the largest series of auto recalls in history.
Car reviewers have been lowering their marks on Toyota for some time, pointing out little construction flaws such as misaligned dashboards and crooked glove compartments that may have been clues to the larger safety-related issues that have emerged.
“Visible problems make you wonder about things you can’t see,” said Jeff Bartlett, deputy online editor for autos at Consumer Reports.
Back in November I panned Toyota's Venza crossover, one of the vehicles now on the recall list, saying it "may well be Toyota’s predicament embodied in steel, rubber and glass. And plastic. Loads of cheap, shiny, sloppily installed plastic."
Consumer Reports’ February issue reports that the Lexus HS250h they bought had a crooked glove compartment door.
Less than a decade ago consumers viewed the quality of new Toyotas to be among the best in the industry, according to findings by Art Spinella, president of CNW Research. But by 2006, a growing number of consumers began to report their perception that the quality of the company’s products was slipping.
if that was the case Ford and GM would have been out of business in the 1990s!
Mercedes returned to conventional hydraulic brakes in its major models even though Mercedes insiders maintained the Sensotronic was better. Customers simply lost faith in the Sensotronic brakes. Mercedes is still scrubbing away the tarnish on its reputation.
That was 5 years ago. You think that Toyota can come back in 5 years.
Back in November I panned Toyota's Venza crossover, one of the vehicles now on the recall list, saying it "may well be Toyota’s predicament embodied in steel, rubber and glass. And plastic. Loads of cheap, shiny, sloppily installed plastic."
Consumer Reports’ February issue reports that the Lexus HS250h they bought had a crooked glove compartment door.
Less than a decade ago consumers viewed the quality of new Toyotas to be among the best in the industry, according to findings by Art Spinella, president of CNW Research. But by 2006, a growing number of consumers began to report their perception that the quality of the company’s products was slipping.
These quotes from CR make it sound like they weren't recommending Toyota products. Didn't they have them rated well because they were, well, toyotas, until just a week ago?
If CR is trying distance themselves from their almost continual recommendation of toyota products as the embodyment of "best you can be," that's a bad sign. Or is CR just trying to wiggle their way out and trying to make people think their judgement is still infallable?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I think Toyota is going to have to do better than this if they want to stay in the game!
http://www.toyota.com/upcoming-vehicles/
I was aiming to purchase a Toy Tacoma back in 2006, glad I didn't. They've had their share of problems. The IIHS is now including the roll over test for pickups, the Tacoma didn't fare so well (marginal), the Frontier rates as good(top rated).
I sensed Toyota was in for some trouble back in the late 90's (too big for their britches) and it has come to pass. Fortunately, for the company, people tend to have short term memory.
Mick
Well, based on the past couple of weeks, it looks like Toyota is just getting warmed up on it's recalls...with the latest being the Prius, the Camry...4Runner probably up next?
Back in November I panned Toyota's Venza crossover, one of the vehicles now on the recall list, saying it "may well be Toyota’s predicament embodied in steel, rubber and glass. And plastic. Loads of cheap, shiny, sloppily installed plastic."
Consumer Reports’ February issue reports that the Lexus HS250h they bought had a crooked glove compartment door.
Less than a decade ago consumers viewed the quality of new Toyotas to be among the best in the industry, according to findings by Art Spinella, president of CNW Research. But by 2006, a growing number of consumers began to report their perception that the quality of the company’s products was slipping.
I think you nailed it!....."CR just trying to wiggle their way out and trying to make people think their judgment is still infallable? "
Or wait, did you mean CR or Toyota? :shades:
So much for their long term marriage of recommendations. The divorce is through, and Toyota didn't even get a "Dear John" letter after it was over.
Unfortunately, that appears accurate as all these Toyota safety recalls are eroding consumer interest and Toyota resale value.
Survey: Buyers shy away from Toyota
IRVINE, Calif. — Toyota’s massive safety recalls is eroding consumer interest in its models and continuing to drive down resale prices of used Toyota vehicles, according to a survey by the Kelley Blue Book.
The survey found that 27 percent of potential car buyers who were considering a Toyota prior to the recall are no longer looking to buy a Toyota. Similar sized declines were seen for Toyota’s Scion and Lexus brands.
Of those that defected from Toyota, the Blue Book study found that 49 percent said they are not sure they will consider buying from the automaker again.
Toyota Motor Corp. has struggled through several recalls of millions of vehicles in recent months over problems with gas pedals. The actions have affected some of Toyota’s most popular models, including Camry and Corolla. Toyota has also recalled some of its Prius hybrids due to problems with brakes.
The Blue Book estimates that the resale value of cars affected by the Toyota recall will fall an additional 1.5 percent. That is on top if a 1 percent to 3 percent decline Blue Book analysts forecast last week.
Toyota’s woes appear to be aiding the automakers competitors. The Blue Book survey found that some would-be Toyota buyers are now looking at brands such as Ford, Chevrolet, Hyundai and Honda.
Kelley said the survey was drawn from 691 car shoppers who used the company’s online Blue Book from Jan. 29 to Feb. 8. It was compared to data on consumer brand consideration from mid-January, before the latest rounds of Toyota safety recalls were made.
I meant CR. We already know toyota's judgement is fallable.
But some people still thought that CR was really completely level on their recommendations.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Mick
This is a tempest in a teapot. Just because there are a few complainers and whiners on this board doesn't mean that Toyota has gone from the top auto company to oblivion. Personally I don't think that much of Toyota products, but many people do, and will continue to do so because they make a good product.
The endless posting of inane articles and blogs from our broken elitist media and the U.A.W. won't change that.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I know, I just couldn't resist
Boldly? Boldly? Oh yeah, its a Toyota LOL
by Chris Paukert (Autoblog)
Perhaps the only 'surprise' at this year's Chicago Auto Show thus far has been the appearance of Toyota's refreshed-for-2011 Avalon sedan. According to this morning's presentation, even the automaker itself debated postponing its introduction in light of its present woes.
Looking to make the best of a bad situation (and among a string of assurances about his company's commitment to quality and customers), Toyota's Group Vice President and General Manager, Bob Carter, was quick to point out that the full-size sedan will ship with an updated gas pedal and emergency shutoff provision. That housekeeping note done, Carter went on to explain that the full-size Avalon checks off the traditional list of mid-cycle refresh items including revised head- and taillamps (the latter with LED), a new grille, revamped fascias and new alloy wheel patterns
All I'm seeking is a comprehensive fix for their cars. I think they're getting to that point (seeing that they're revamping the electronics for new models coming down stream). They need to do it for all affected vehicles...regardless of model, make or year.
They seem to be moving glacially slow in doing that. I think eventually they'll have to, though. Why not announce it? It will take awhile, and it's not going to be cheap since it affects a much larger amount of vehicles than they've currently recalled (which is probably why they're dragging their feet yet again). But, I think things will go easier for them in Congress, and in the marketplace, once they do.
This doesn't extrude any confidence in me that the 2012 Camry redesign will be radically different from the current generation; I mean with the refreshed 2010 Ford Fusion and now the 2011 Sonata, Toyota really needs to hit a home-run with the 2012 Camry or they will really fall into obscurity! they have some tight competition coming out of Ford, Nissan, and Hyundai and will need to make big changes to stay competitive!
if a conservative company like Ford and Hyundai can make bold styling changes and have a nice balance between handling and ride quality with the Fusion and Sonata there is no reason Toyota can't do it with the Camry; if they can't then they are even more stupid than they already are!
Dammit Toyota - STOP BEING SO DAMN CONSERVATIVE!!!! arghhhh!!!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
By Katy Steinmetz
Time Magazine
For decades, Toyota and U.S. government agencies have been negotiating over a growing list of safety issues. Here is a history of major events pertaining to Toyota's acceleration-related problems.
September 1986: The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, the government body in charge of keeping the roads safe, orders its first recall of Toyota cars because of "speed control" problems, according to the NHTSA database (though defects with the two 1982 models involved were related to faulty cruise control). A second investigation into sudden-acceleration dangers with Toyota vehicles takes place this year.
April 2003: Toyota internally deals with an "unwanted acceleration" incident that occurred during production testing of the Sienna. It determines the cause to be a missing clip that allowed the trim panel to trap the accelerator pedal. In the aftermath, Toyota concludes that it was an "isolated incident," according to the NHTSA report. Five years later, Toyota would inform the NHTSA about this incident when that administration makes a blanket information request.
March-July 2004: The NHTSA conducts what would be the first of many defect investigations regarding speed-control problems, all of which would lead to the current furor (partially about Toyota and the NHTSA's neglecting to pay attention to the abnormal number of investigations). The first three investigations primarily involve the Camry, Solara and Lexus ES models. The initial case is opened after an owner petitions the NHTSA in February to look into speed-control issues; it is closed when the NHTSA fails to find a "defect trend."
August 2005–January 2006: The NHTSA conducts a second evaluation after Jordan Ziprin, a Camry owner, reports "inappropriate and uncontrollable vehicle accelerations." In a subsequent questionnaire sent out to owners, hundreds of people report problems with acceleration and braking, but the NHTSA determines that their concerns are of "ambiguous significance" given the variety of defects described. Based on this sense of inconclusiveness, the administration denies Ziprin's petition for further investigate into the 19 Camry and Lexus models that are potentially involved.
September 2006–April 2007: The NHTSA conducts a third evaluation after William B. Jeffers III, another Camry owner, petitions the administration to investigate the multiple "engine surging" incidents that he has experienced. The NHTSA fails to identify any problems after reviewing the complaint and road-testing the petitioner's vehicle. It cites the need to best allocate limited administration resources as the reason for denying the petition.
March 2007: The NHTSA begins a fourth investigation into uncontrollable-acceleration problems with Lexus vehicles. In its preliminary evaluation, it suspects the floor mat to be the culprit.
July 2007: Troy Edwin Johnson is killed when a Camry accelerating out of control hits his car at approximately 120 m.p.h. The driver had been unable to slow the car for 23 miles leading up to the crash. Toyota eventually settles out of court with Johnson's family for an undisclosed amount.
August 2007: The NHTSA upgrades the investigation to an "engineering analysis," meaning it will do full-fledged vehicle testing instead of just reviewing complaints or single vehicles and crunching questionnaire numbers as it had done in the past. This leads to a floor-mat recall of the Camry and Lexus models in September. The NHTSA believes that 55,000 units may be affected.
January 2008–August 2008: The NHTSA denies the petition of a Toyota Tacoma owner who has asked the agency to investigate the unwanted sudden acceleration he experienced. It finds the possibility of a defect to be "quite limited."
April 2008–January 2009: Another investigation, regarding the Sienna, overlaps with the Tacoma petition review for four months. This one gets bumped up to an engineering analysis, which leads to a recall of Siennas. In the event that the clip securing the floor-carpet cover is missing, the NHTSA report reads, the accelerator pedal can become stuck. It is the same problem that had been noticed and dismissed by Toyota in 2003.
April 2009: The NHTSA receives another petition, this one to investigate throttle-control problems unrelated to floor-mat issues in Lexus ES vehicles.
August 2009: An off-duty highway patrolman and his family are killed when they rent a Lexus ES350 and have a runaway crash. The NHTSA and the California Highway Patrol investigate the incident and believe the floor mat snagged the pedal, causing the uncontrollable acceleration.
October 2009: Toyota recalls 3.8 million vehicles on the grounds that floor mats can trap the pedals. Despite reportedly suspecting problems with pedal design following the Lexus crash, the NHTSA denies the petition made in April; in its report, the administration says "the only defect trend" is the floor-mat problem, and since Toyota already issued a recall, the "contentions that any further investigation is necessary are unsupported."
November 2009: Toyota publicly apologizes to the NHTSA after reporting that the administration found that "no defect exists." Even when closing the book on a complaint, the NHTSA includes a disclaimer in each report explaining that its determination not to look into an issue doesn't constitute a finding that there's definitely no safety-related defect.
December 2009: NHTSA officials go to Japan to discuss the recall process. A press release from Secretary of Transportation Ray LaHood's office states that the "NHTSA indicates that it expects improvement in [Toyota's] responsiveness in the future."
Jan. 16, 2010: Toyota informs the NHTSA that the pedals themselves have a dangerous "sticky" habit. It's not just the floor mats, after all.
Jan. 19, 2010: The NHTSA meets with Toyota in Washington to discuss the sticking-pedal business, and Toyota calls the administration later that day to announce its plans for a wider recall.
Jan. 21, 2010: Toyota recalls approximately 2.3 million more vehicles because of sticking pedals.
Jan. 26, 2010: Toyota stops selling eight models as part of the recall, which leads to thousands of losses in unit sales.
Jan. 27, 2010: Toyota announces the recall of an additional 1.1 million vehicles because of pedal-entrapment problems.
Feb. 3, 2010: Toyota announces worries about brakes in Prius models. As of Feb. 4, 458 complaints would be filed on the NHTSA's website regarding the 2010 Toyota Prius. By Feb. 8, there would be 1,310 complaints. (The 2010 Honda Insight, by comparison, has just two.)
Also on this day, Secretary LaHood lets slip instructions for Toyota owners to "stop driving." He later says he misspoke, but not before Toyota's stock takes a blow. He also says the government had to pres
If this is only a refresh and not a redesign of the basic car, then it's still based on the prior Camry. It's not based on the current Camry which came out after the redesigned Avalon came out.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I haven't read that anywhere. I was under the impression it was the same part just different venders.
That said, the CTS throttle is not the cause of any of the accidents. This is just a smoke screen to cover up a much bigger problem in the ECUs that can and do fail causing UA.
I also haven't read anywhere that this has been proven yet. Or has it? One can speculate logically that it would seem to be the cause however.
It has been "boldly redesigned" :shades:
I'd expect the 2012 Camry to be as different from the 2007-11 models as the latter was from the 2002-06 generation.
"The interiors in particular are awash in cheap-looking, shiny plastic. Likening the Venza’s apparently ready-to-hose-clean, plastic door panels to something from the toy aisle would insult Buzz Lightyear and Woody.
"Worse yet, the plastic bits in the test model weren’t installed correctly, so the cut lines between pieces were misaligned in places and the dashboard air vents had shockingly large, irregular gaps around them. These are the things that killed GM’s image. Now Toyota is making the same inexcusable mistakes."
In fact his whole review is well done.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33605151/ns/business-autos/
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I'd think we'd all be better served if you could substantiate your recollection about businesses in general (and by implication, Toyota in particular) employing internet "plants" spouting the party line. We did have a Toyota rep in one of the sludge forums (cited by Steve yesterday), but he did identify himself clearly at the outset. Maybe your referring to other less reputable websites than Edmunds also.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
You're wondering? Ha, since Bart Stupak from Michigan is going to chair one of the hearings, you know he'll be puffing out his chest in indignation. You think the US CEOs were grilled? Wait till you see Stupak in action, urged on by his UAW supporters. And I'm sure many of the other congressional windbags will be doing the same.
I still say let NHTSA handle this. As I said yesterday, they now have a permanent administrator and have been kicked in the butt by DOT secretary Ray "foot-in-mouth" LaHood.
Good quote here: Edmunds.com analysts also attempted to evaluate the deaths and injuries reported in the NHTSA database, but it quickly became clear that the data is unreliable. For example, one complaint indicated that 99 people had died in one vehicle as a result of an accident. It should also be noted roughly 10 percent of total complaints appear to be duplicates. Finally, this analysis did not rate the reported incidents for severity.
This is precisely why opportunists like Sean Kane are misguided in using only the complaints, without detailed follow-on investigations.
Bravo!
You're wondering? Ha, since Bart Stupak from Michigan is going to chair one of the hearings, you know he'll be puffing out his chest in indignation.
I unno, since Toyota is 1. in Ann Arbor, MI and 2. profitable, I don't know if he is going to be the one who is playing hard ball.
I did take the vehicle to the dealer and had a chat with my tech guy. He had one of those astonishing looks. Sort of like, wow that was a great story, so what?
7 months later I turned the vehicle in when my lease expired. I still have the original paperwork with vehicle VIN. If regulators want a test vehicle and need one with a real problem, they can find it in the database.
I am just hoping current owner is still alive and the car is still on the road somewhere.
In a crowded meeting hall in Toyota's headquarters on December 15, Medford and two other senior NHTSA officials first delivered what amounted to a remedial lesson in U.S. safety regulation for about 100 Toyota engineers and executives, a primer in how the system is supposed to work.
Then the Americans retired to a conference room to hammer home the no-nonsense warning to a smaller group.
Across the table was Toyota's top officer in charge of quality, Hiroyuki Yokoyama, and the head of the engineering team that handled consumer complaints, Shinji Miyamoto. In a company that built its reputation on an almost paranoid obsession with quality, Yokoyama and Miyamoto were the keepers of the flame.
Toyota knew that NHTSA officials were also scheduled to meet with Honda and Nissan and Japan's transport ministry so they were blindsided by this kind of tough meeting.
"At that point we weren't expecting the discussions to have any deep meaning because at that point we had already dealt with the floormat issue," Toyota Executive Vice President Shinichi Sasaki said.
Toyota officials in the room with Medford suggested that perhaps the placement of floormats was responsible for the unintended acceleration cases that had drawn tougher scrutiny from the U.S. side.
NHTSA officials chastised Toyota for "still talking in those terms," Sasaki recalled.
The irony of the moment was rich. This was a little-known U.S. official in an arm of the government most Americans could not identify lecturing Toyota about quality. The same U.S. government that had bailed out General Motors and Chrysler just four months earlier was excoriating Toyota for falling short.
Inside Toyota's Epic Breakdown
And as far as the Tundra goes, my buddy was one of the first buyers of the brand new model. They replaced not just 1 but 2 lemon GMC Sierras that were so bad that even as a service mgr for a local GMC dealer he dumped them for a Toyota.
Axtually talked to him yesterday, has about 65k on his truck and has never experienced the UA in that or his wifes Highlander.
Still claims that Toyota has won him over and vows never to buy another Government Motors product again (no longer works for the dealer either).
I remember back in the late 80s that NHTSA's oldest ongoing Engineering Analysis (EA) was for sudden acceleration in all GM automatic transmission cars from 1973-86. This was back in the "good old days" of carburetors (for the most part) and mechanical throttle linkages. I had a 1977 Chevy Impala (automatic of course), and was a little concerned, as this was concurrent with the Audi 5000 hysteria.
The EA was eventually closed with no action taken.
I unno, since Toyota is 1. in Ann Arbor, MI and 2. profitable, I don't know if he is going to be the one who is playing hard ball.
He'll be playing hardball alright. The R&D center is a comparative hill of beans. He's up for re-election this year and will want to grandstand for his constituents, many of whom are current or laid-off members of the UAW. I would wager that Michigan has the least sympathy for Toyota compared to any state in the US.
Also interesting......how Toyota couldn't/wouldn't "connect the dots" in nailing down the root causes of their safety issues. Were they just too big to see what is clear to everyone else? Possibly.
But, with every failure, opportunity presents itself. Toyota now has an opportunity to rededicate itself to the quality that they used to represent, and put into their vehicles. More importantly, the opportunity exists for them to reinvent themselves as safety mavens.
Whether they embrace those opportunities is an entirely different matter. If they don't, they'll just become another example of GM in the '80s....slapping together vehicles as fast as they can, and fighting their safety detractors every step of the way.
Personally, I'd rather see them become the former, and not the latter.
But, first things first, they've got to fix the safety problems they have in the present. It would be better if they weren't forced to do it by a gov't agency, whether here in the U.S. and/or in their home country. Do it voluntarily, and with gusto, and they'll be viewed a whole lot better.