Where Is Ford taking the Lincoln Motor Company?

edward3608 · February 2008

Consumer Reports is not the automotive press. Is it? I don't' believe that they are concerned with performance other then what the average person is use to How come when a consumer is told that a Fusion is a Ford ,the products approval rating drops? Ask J.D Powers . Could it be that Ford has an image of building shoddy products?

akirby · February 2008

Exactly how is the above paragraph different if we substitute Jaguar for Volvo and DEW-98 for D3? The fact is that Ford has decided that DEW-98 is TOO GOOD for Lincoln, which will now share ALL it's platforms with "Ford", by which I mean Mazda, Volvo and Australia.

Context, Joe, context. The decision to share dew98 with jag was made way back in 1996. The decision to drop dew98 was made sometime around 2002-2003. Way before Fields and Mulally. Had they been in control back then would dew98 still be alive and kicking? I'd say it's likely but that's water under the bridge at this point.

The question is: what would you do TODAY given that Jag and Volvo are on the auction block? Would you choose to develop a NEW platform with a division that you're about to sell? Only if there was no other choice or there was some other synergy that could be realized.

Is it about saving money? Of course! Ford needs profits. But I don't understand why people treat Ford of Australia and Ford of Europe as separate companies.
But saving money doesn't mean building cheap platforms. It means taking advantage of existing Ford resources wherever continent they happen to be on to reduce duplication and share engineering costs.

I think a lot of people simply resent the fact that Ford is not using American resources and all of this bellyaching over platform sharing is just an offshoot of that. Because there is absolutely no technical or financial reason for Ford NOT to develop RWD platform with the Aussies. None.

jeyhoe · February 2008

"The question is: what would you do TODAY given that Jag and Volvo are on the auction block? Would you choose to develop a NEW platform with a division that you're about to sell?"

Are you really asking me this question? For God's sake the modified DEW-98 platform exists NOW, ans has for probably2 or 3 years. FORD PAID for it. It is insane to me that they won't use it to make a GD Lincoln that has higher aspirations than a freaking Versailles remake. COme on, man. Quit making excuses for them. They could build a world class Lincoln if they wanted to - BUT THEY DON'T. They're content to make warmed over cheapos and call them Lincolns. Be serious. And I;m including St Mulally in this. He's done NOTHING as far as I can tell except for the failed name change, a bad joke at Bush' expense and a lot of talking about platform sharing. Oh and a lot of newly unemployed Ford workers.

"But I don't understand why people treat Ford of Australia and Ford of Europe as separate companies."

How about this - because the needs of drivers in America differ dramatically from those in Europe. Australia maybe not so much different, but the cars Ford has brought over from Australia have been total flops.

"Because there is absolutely no technical or financial reason for Ford NOT to develop RWD platform with the Aussies. None. "

Here's one - The Australian Mercury Capri. Described by either Click or Clack as " real shiny piece of poop" IIRC.

As for your not so veiled attack on my feelings about using Americans to design and build cars for America, I must say your attitude fits in perfectly well with that "giant sucking sound" that Ross Perot used to describe the rush of jobs from America that has occurred just as he predicted. I dont know your situation, but it's getting mighty grim all over for American workers as far as I can see. Perhaps you are independently wealthy and or dont have children and so dont give a RIP?

jeyhoe · February 2008

cd;

Yeah, thanks for inserting the (human-caused) descriptor that I forgot. It is unfreakingbelieveable to me that so many people have bought into this chicken-little GW stuff. I'm beginning to realize that there is something else going on here and they're using this as an excuse to do some global-economic-balancing so to speak.
But I digress again. You are right, I'm in stage 2. And I sink deeper into the quicksand when I read the Horse poop excuses on here for Ford making the decision to be a maker and seller of crap to the least common denominator. Period. They could have (AND STILL COULD) build a world-class Lincoln but the decision is to move Lincoln down-market and only our long-lost and probably laid off friend, ANT, who used to post here, was honest about it.
In time and with enough medication, I will join you in stage 3.

jeyhoe · February 2008

Someone mentioned the Ford Flex as an example of Ford's bright new future. I have no crystal ball, but I don't see this vehicle as saving anything. It's nothing but an expensive station wagon, an offering identical in many ways, though with a cheaper interior and not as good looking as the now-failed Chrysler Pacifica which has been trolling this market for 5 or more years.

Now, the pricing for the Flex is released on BON. I looked at it last night and the retail price of a Flex Limited AWD with a sunroof, Nav and DVD system is about $43,000 plus tax, title, license and transportation. Anybody else think that's a lot of money for a Ford station wagon?

akirby · February 2008

Ok, I got it. Anything that YOU like is great, wonderful and the best thing since sliced bread and anything you don't like is crap and should never be produced.

If you want a DEW98 derived chassis so bad, go buy one. They're available right now at your local Jaguar dealer. They start at $49K.

cdnpinhead · February 2008

It's pretty clear that you & I have found Lincoln wanting of late.

Part of what distresses me is that there's not much that I like better in today's market than the 8-year-old LS (~130K miles) I'm crutching along as my daily driver.

What do you drive (and why)? I'm in the process of telling myself to settle for an Acura TSX until the German diesels are introduced & settle down here in North America. Then I can sell or turn in the lease in 2-3 years and get something closer to what I really want.

What I want simply isn't available (manual trans, RWD, fold-down rear seats & a diesel) here in the U.S., though I could have found exactly that six (or more) years ago in Europe.

Gotta love the EPA, or California, or the American public, or whatever -- in any event, what's available here today doesn't work for me.

jeyhoe · February 2008

No, you don't got it. And u obviously never will.
Even the casual observer can see that Ford has drastically lowered the bar for Lincoln. I just used the word 'crap' as shorthand for that. So be it. And Mercury, my first love car-wise, will soon be gone. And so it goes. And maybe by 2011 or so, you can rush down to your Ford-Lincoln dealer and choose between a $43000 Flex and a probably $55,000 or more "Lincoln" mkwhatever with a bustle-back design. Some folks are easily pleased. Others have higher standards. If Lincoln hadn't aspired to those higher standards back in 2000, we wouldn't be arguing right now. But they had their 15 minutes of automotive fame and now - poof - gone with the wind(star).

jeyhoe · February 2008

cd;

We are in the same boat. We're still driving our 2001 LS getrag. It's my wife's daily driver as I, as an old white guy, am personna non grata in the job market here. She loves it. She lobbied for the manual over the auto at the time and I was happy to "go along" wink-wink. It's approaching 95K miles and except for crappy HVAC and the usual front sway bar bushings, still really runs fantastic. Well, like new anyway

I hear ya on replacing it. Mines worth maybe $8000. So I'd need another $25K minimum to get something even close to same. And with gas now at $3.50/gal here I'd want a big increase in mpg to go with it. Needless to say there's nothing like that around. I did have a rental Passat a couple weeks ago that came close. 2.0 turbo was lightning fast and got real high 20s mpg and I pushed it. I assume a manual is avail cause it's a VW, but I could be wrong.

TSX is nice, but it's FWD isn't it? For what u want, doesnt the Infiniti G also come close to fitting the bill? Manual avail, RWD, fast as a rocket. No diesel. It's what my wife wants to buy to replace the LS. Someday. Oh, and then there's that Caddy

I know u said no more Americans, but Caddy sure seems a whole lot more committed and on top of it than Lincoln ever will be.

[Deleted User] · February 2008

manual trans, RWD, fold-down rear seats & a diesel

Nope. Nothing like that here. Isn't it a shame that in other parts of the world you would have many models to choose from? The new clean diesel Jetta is almost here, and that would fill your bill, except for the RWD. The Jetta is trimmed out like a luxury car.

[Deleted User] · February 2008

From Popular Mechanics:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/automotive_news/4251594.html

And they have a manual transmission version coming. It's cheaper than the CTS, but offers much of the same excitement. So LS owners will continue to have choices (provided you can afford them

)when the ole LS starts limping too much. It just won't be another Lincoln unfortunately for at least a few more years. And who knows where the world (and cars) will be by then? Not much sense waiting for a Lincoln that is still only vapor.

cdnpinhead · February 2008

The G doesn't have fold-down rear seats, plus which the engine is a bit crude (& thirsty).

I'm with you on the 2.0 turbo -- the Audi A3 is right behind the TSX on my "what would I buy if my car were totalled today" list, but the depreciation & reliability worry me a lot on a car I'd hope to unload in 3-4 years so I can get what I really want.

Hang in there (as will I).

jeyhoe · February 2008

Will do.

Hey, I just realized, the G Coupe is like a hatchback. WOuld that work for you? Dont really know about the crudeness of the engine or thirstyness either. eah, Audi A3 is good. A4 too

And yeah, I would worry about VW reliability as well.

U know, there is a car with good gas mileage and a hatchback design that would definitely hold it's value til something else came along. And I know Stanny1 (remember him?- aka the coninator) would recommend cause he bought one when his lease was up on his manual LS. A Prius. But then you'd need to change your whole belief system cause if yu ever got out of a Prius and argued against human-caused GW, you'd probably be locked up.

jeyhoe · February 2008

Here's another reason.
I just received in today's mail my second recall notice for my 95 E-150 work van. This has to do, again, with the burning cruise control switch issue I think many will remember. Well, it turns out that Ford, who really needs to make money and cant afford to spend any on a real Lincoln, just BLEW this recall all to he!!. Wasn't it I who said that anyone worth their salt would take a buyout from Ford and get a job somewhere else? Yes, it was I. And this proves I may have been right.
Apparently there's no one left at Ford smart enough to realize that a fuse IS SUPPOSED TO GO ON THE HOT WIRE.
Yes folks, Ford spent MILLIONS (tens or hundreds of?) to replace a faulty cruise control switch and in the new harness they FUSED THE GROUND WIRE.
So, now tens of millions of dollars more to replace these faulty harnesses with (hopefully) correctly wired ones.
Is this unfreakinbelieveable or what? Let's hear the excuses now for the inexcusable. I just gotta stop now before i say anything really insulting about Ford.

cdnpinhead · February 2008

The G Coupe was a "contenda" until I had a good close look at that little triangular hole that exists after the seats have been folded down. The Nissan V6 that powers 99.8% (well, not really) of their fleet these days does suck a lot of fuel & makes quite a bit of noise doing it.

Stan & I have a long history, part of which involved my getting kicked off another board a second time. It's a long story, but buying a Pious (have you seen the South Park episode having to do with hybrid vehicles?) isn't part of my future. He & I (& you?) were at Mania I (I've still got the clock (stopped, appropriately) on my desk with the 06 Jan 01 date one it), when I did the blood-brother thing with Lincoln & the LS. That's (only) part of why I'm so hacked off, but, but, I'm better now. . .really.

Diesels, yes.

Hybrids, not so much.

Lincolns, never again.

But that's just me.

jeyhoe · February 2008

Yeah, I was there with my wife and 2 year old at the time. I drove down in my Pearly-white Mark 8 which I drove around on the course. My LS was on order at the time.

Yeah, we still have the clock. And ours stopped too!

edward3608 · February 2008

Whats the point ! A more expensive Lincoln is not as good as a less expensive Camry or Accord thats the point!

edward3608 · February 2008

But will the platform be used in a Ford that is not designed to be a high end car. If the platform is designed to be a Lincoln platform to be used in a less expensive Ford , why should anyone purchase the Lincoln when its going to get a Lincoln platform in a less expensive Ford! Explain please? I believe that The VW Phaeton came after the Bentley and the real similarity between the Phaeton and the Bentley is in the 95,000 thousand dollar version of the Phaeton. Besides the Bentley is mostly built by hand. I don't believe that the Phaeton is. Please correct me if I am wrong. Oh yes Chevy isn't taking orders for the Camaro until late spring or early to mid summer. The first Camaro from dealer stock goes on sale in February of 09. Please correct me if I am wrong. Yes the present Towncar uses a modified Crown Vic platform. But put each of them on a hoist and examine each of their chassis. The Towncar L uses a longer Chassis but is still the same chassis only it has been stretched. Isn't that so ?

edward3608 · February 2008

Isn't performance also a part of the quality of a vehicle? If not, please inform me otherwise. I won't be able to reply to you until Monday evening. I am enjoying this healthy discussion about the auto industry.

akirby · February 2008

sn't performance also a part of the quality of a vehicle? If not, please inform me otherwise.

Consider yourself informed. Performance is how well it accelerates, brakes, handles, etc. Quality is how well it's put together and how many (or few) defects it has. You can have the best performing but worst quality vehicle, or vice versa. The two are not related.

akirby · February 2008

You sure do know a lot about a platform that only exists in some engineer's computer right now. And don't assume it's only one platform. Let's just wait until details are available before declaring it a disaster. Check back in about 18 months.

cowbell · February 2008

As it seems to be what is done in this forum: you are aware an A3 is just a gussied up VW Golf?

cowbell · February 2008

You're description of the Passat 2.0 turbo kind of surprises me. I test drove one a few months ago and was thoroughly disappointed in it. Specifically the 0-15mph acceleration. In fact, it was kind of scary when I first pulled out into traffic; I didn't expect to have to push the accelerator to the floor to make a smooth right hand turn on red ahead of the traffic. In fact, after the test drive, I asked my wife how many times she though I floored the engine during the drive. Her guess: zero, the answer 3.

When I got back home and started reading some reviews, it turned out to be a common problem, and it wasn't the engine. Apparently it has something to do with the transmission. So if you got a manual, this would not be a problem, but "lightening fast" would not have been a phrase in my description of the 2.0 Passat automatic.

euphonium · February 2008

$43,000 plus tax, title, license and transportation. Anybody else think that's a lot of money for a Ford station wagon?

Not when you consider the price of the fully loaded 1968 Ford Country Squire, dual tail gate, & the big 390 4V engine. It was $4,300 forty years ago. If your income hasn't gone up accordingly, the cost of the car is not the problem.

jeyhoe · February 2008

First to you previous messge, it wasnt I who brought up the A3, but yes I realize that Audi and VW are joined at the hip,
As for the Passat, perhaps lighntning fast was a bit of hyperbole. Perhaps I should add 'compared to anything remotely comparable from Ford except a V8 Mustang.'? Would that be better? I don't know 0-60 times, but I'd bet low 6's.
In any case, it was a rental car for 4 days. I was not test driving considering purchase as you were. It's quickness and handling impressed me. I did not intend to do a complete review of the car., If I were to mention negatives I'd say it was probably smaller than I'd like a car to be, especially the driving position. And there was quite a flat spot in acceleration, almost certainly due to turbo lag, which may be what you're referring to.
So I really only mentioned the thing in 'passing'. Would I buy one? Little chance of that.

marsha7 · February 2008

Ah, the old Country Squire, and if you are old enough, maybe it was a Woody, not with today's connotation, but with woodlike panels on the doors...and the 390, haven't heard that engine mentioned in quite some time...thoughts of yesteryear...

jeyhoe · February 2008

Going thru some boxes today, tossing a lot of old magazines and such, I came across the Nov 1999 issue of Motor Trend. On the cover - a BMW 528i, Lexus GS 300 and front and center the brand new Lincoln LS. All under the headline "Fast Sports Sedans" followed by "Can Lincoln's new LS beat BMW and Lexus?"
So I reread the article and the answer 9 years later is still "No". Nope, the LS finished dead last out of 3. This despite BEATING both in handling, beating the Lexus in 0-60 and 1/4 mile, being the roomiest of the 3, having brakes the equal of either and steering judged just shy of the Beemer. And mind you, this was the 5 speed manual V6 LS, not the heartier V8 with the Jag engine. The LS was marked down for interior and exterior styling and fit and finish. Other than that, it was a match for these beasties, both of which were approximately $6,000 more expensive. And it was built in Wixom, Michigan.
Well, the Wixom plant is either a museum or a strip mall now, I forget which and the LS is merely a historic footnote in Lincoln's fall from grace.
So WHY, you ask, do I mention any of this, besides my usual twisting of the knife? Well, because I finally realize the absolute genius in Ford's new strategy for Lincoln. They have realized that they no longer need to strive to beat Lexus and BMW. They don't have to do all the expensive and difficul engineering work of sharing platforms with a famous racing car from Britain, spending lots of money to hire Formula 1 suspension designers, testing at Nurbuguring (sp?), using aluminum suspension and taking care that the final result will have a 51/49 front/rear weight ratio. "He!! NO", they realized "why should we waste all that money to build a car that ALMOST matches the best in the world when we can build a cheap Mazda clone in Mexico wth a FWD setup and yeah, that same old engine from 15 years ago under the hood, slap a waterfall grille on the front and guess what? In the comparo tests between us and BMW and Lexus, we'll STILL FINISH DEAD LAST but we'll be money ahead!" Line forms here for the bonus checks.
Like I said, BRILLIANT! Bravo, Lincoln. Boy those Caddy folks must feel really stupid.

lemko · February 2008

Ugh, my Dad had a 1972 Ford LTD Country Squire and it was easily the WORST car he ever owned. It had the 400 V-8 and was such a gas hog it made a Hummer H-2 look like a Prius. It rusted with a vengeance and was plagued with mechanical maladies.

marsha7 · February 2008

"But the 390 I remember as a big, weak and thirsty V8"...back then, was there ANY V8 that managed over 12 mpg???

[Deleted User] · February 2008

The 69 to 72 Country Squire with fake wood was one of the prettiest wagons ever. But the 390 I remember as a big, weak and thirsty V8 that didn't measure up to the competition, except in a very few performance versions. I don;t think Lincoln ever used it. But back then, Lincoln had its own engines.(430, 462, 460).

akirby · February 2008

The title of the thread isn't "how Lincoln totally screwed up". I think we've all agreed on that, although some of us think this year's lineup is decent and not quite the disaster that others call it. The question is about Ford's future plans for Lincoln, and here is what we know today:

Exterior Styling - first shown with the MKR concept. The MKT will be the first vehicle designed AFTER the MKR and allowed to incorporate all of the styling cues. The MKS has shown a commitment to unique sheet metal and that should continue with all future vehicles.

Drivetrains - Mulally is committed to bringing RWD back to Lincoln. Yes, it's several years too late and will take another 2-3 years to get here but that is the future. In addition to the EcoBoost 3.5L at 340 hp we've heard there is a new 5.0L to replace the 4.6 and a 6.2L to replace the 5.4, both with a lot more power with the same or better fuel mileage. These engines will be used in both the trucks, SUVs, mustang and RWD sedans.

Interior styling/features - the MKS is a huge step forward from the current Lincoln interiors and features. Adaptive HIDs, gen 2 LED integrated keypads, Sync, much better interior materials, manumatic, keyless go, etc. I believe the MKT will be even better.

Will they offer a true RWD sports sedan with luxury and performance and a manual option? I don't know, but I do know there is a good chance given that some of the vehicles slated to use the GRWD platform (Aussie Falcon, Mustang) will have one. Without Mulally and Fields I think we would be stuck with FWD/AWD D3 and little to no chance for a RWD manual luxury sport sedan.

Please remember that everything that's coming out up to and including this year was "in the can" before Mulally, Fields and Kuzack were fully on board and making product decisions. The future is bright, even if it's 5-7 years too late.

jeyhoe · February 2008

Allen: This "BTW, anyone recognize whom I need to attribute for the title of this thread, so as not to be accused of plagiarism like a certain Pied Piper of Chicago's South Side?" referred to this "Through the past, Darkly " Perhaps I should have said message rather than thread. No matter.

When u say this year's lineup, I take that to be Navigator, Mark LT, MK x, MK Z and Town Car, correct? Cant include MK S or MK R or MK T yet right? If that's the case, then there's a gaping hole in the lineup right where the LS was. Agreed?

As for Ford's future plans for Lincoln, lets just remember the old adage that if you dont know history you're doomed to repeat it.

As for future styling, we really cant comment on anything other than the MK S becasue the R and T are still concepts. Agreed? So as to the MK S, I will reiterate that I like the exterior of the car a lot. Only change I would make is to remove the Olds Aurora tailights and replcae them with something more akin to the MK X or last Mark VIII tail treatment, bith of which I like. All just MHO. The interior of the S I've only seen parts of in pictures and I am unimpressed to say the least. However, I must add that, while I consider an interior a very important part of a vehicle's design since that's where u spend 99% of your time interacting with the thing, the interior of the LS leaves lots to be desired as well. he Motor Trend article I referenced gave the LS the lowest mark it received n any category for it's interior. Spot on. In the 7 years I've owned mine, no one has ever gotten inside the car and said anything like "Wow, THIS is NICE." But, the exterior of the LS is classy looking and what's underneath makes the interior problems fade into obscurity somewhat.

You may be right in your bright future predictions. I don't know and I'm getting to the point where I don't care. I don't like the T - it looks like a baby carriage in the back and a growling alien in the front. (UFO not illegal) The R is similarly, though not so dramatically, strange. I like the S best. Mulally still hasnt impressed me as he has you, but he is definitely an improvement over BF. But then that guy from Mad magazine (What, me worry?) would have filled that Bill.

Still hate to argue with you so often. But we are at cross-purposes here. My point or intent if there was one would be to convince Ford to grab the modified DEW-98 platform WHICH THEY'VE ALREADY PAID to develop, and use it for another real world class Lincoln. You, like Mulally and the rest, apparently are content to build something not quite so world class. It STILL boggles that they'll kiss this existing paid for platform good bye and turn around and begin development on something less and pay more money for return that's 5 years out at least (not cars, ROI). But what do I know?

[Deleted User] · February 2008

Yep. Cars of that era were pretty awful things in general. They didn't last very long, and here in the north, practically all had serious rust damage by four years old. The 70s big cars were about the worst ever, since they had not yet given them decent, safe handling, the quality was poor, and on top of that, the emissions controls sucked all remaining power out of them. Large cars grew about as large as they had ever been. The 70s Town Cars were behemoths. It wasn't until the mid-80s that real strides in durability (and making handling more safe) became common.

But the Country Squire was roomy and the lines were drawn right.

cdnpinhead · February 2008

Well done. I remember that article & probably have a copy buried somewhere.

My thought process (there, you've had your buzzword for the day now) back in those days was that what was wrong with the LS at introduction (fit/finish/interior -- you know, the stuff they've already fixed on the CTS) could easily be fixed with a couple of iterations, while suspension, brakes & all the rest are forever (more or less).

Oh well.

[Deleted User] · February 2008

Nope. Cadillac is not doing everything right. However, they do have a lineup that looks like vehicles from the same manufacturer.

The STS is not really a "loser." It is not selling as well as Cadillac would like adn so they will replace it, but still, it is beating most of its direct competition (such as the Infiniti M sedan). The SRX has the same baggage as the Taurus X and Pacifica: it's a fat looking wagon rather than looking more like a CUV. Like the Taurus, it is a good car (truck?) that isn't going to tear up the sales charts because of its looks.

The DTS still sells to the over 80 set and as Caddy's competitor to the TC, it is a better car and a better seller. But that isn't saying much (other than Cadillac has nothing as lame as the Mark LT and Town Car).

akirby · February 2008

Can't argue with that.

akirby · February 2008

Picture was too big to display here, but look at this closeup picture. Notice the textured appearance. This is not a cheap black plastic piece. And once again I'll remind everyone that there IS a wood appearance package listed as an option that we haven't seen yet.

link title

jeyhoe · February 2008

"My thought process (there, you've had your buzzword for the day now) back in those days was that what was wrong with the LS at introduction (fit/finish/interior -- you know, the stuff they've already fixed on the CTS) could easily be fixed with a couple of iterations, while suspension, brakes & all the rest are forever (more or less). "

My thoughts exactly. They did make a small attempt to fix issues in 2003 with some upgrades to the interior and some boosts in power. The basics of the car were always right up there with the best. Little iterations, as any company that is committed to ongoing improvements would have done, were what was needed. But we all know what happened.
I remember being at MANIA 3 I think it was when the 2003 was being revealed to us. There was one there in Vivid Red. Beautiful. And they were expounding on the VCT upgrades to the engine etc and I, like a good little student, raised my hand and asked - "I dont see the manual tranny on the spec list. Is that an oversight?" Well, u could have heard a pin drop as the presenter's face (it might have been Jonathon Crocker, not sure) started to go red and he said "No comment" and I knew right then it was all over. I pleaded with him later as he sat in the driver seat of Jim Roger's blue 5 speed LS to NOT drop the 5 speed but he just looked at me like a deer in the headlights.
Oh well, like I said, I think I understand now. And they will be money ahead. So what about some lost prestige? Good marketing can fool the public and make up for that.

BTW, anyone recognize whom I need to attribute for the title of this thread, so as not to be accused of plagiarism like a certain Pied Piper of Chicago's South Side?

akirby · February 2008

The rectangular center stack panel containing the stereo and climate controls looks like something you might have seen in a 1970s delivery truck.

That, to me, is a ridiculous statement. And the only person I've seen here (peetiedog over in the MKS thread) who has actually sat in one (at the LA Auto Show) said just the opposite. He was impressed by the interior - and he sells Audis for a living so he should know.

And you know darn well that X-plan is NOT dealer invoice. Why cant u stay honest and on topic?

Here is how X plan pricing is calculated. This is straight from the Ford X plan website.

X-Plan

Ford/Mercury
Dealer Invoice - 0.4% of Invoice + $75 Administration Fee (see sample invoice )

Lincoln
Dealer Invoice + 0.6% of Invoice + $75 Administration Fee see sample invoice )

That means a Lincoln with a $35,000 dealer invoice has a X plan price of $35,285. A $30,000 Ford has a X plan price of $29,955. That's about as close to dealer invoice as you can possibly get.

You might want to check your facts before you call someone dishonest.

And there aren't many convertibles around that DON'T have extra cross-bracing over their siblings with fixed metal roofs.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. I'm not talking about extra bracing built into the vehicle's structure. Picture the rear seat of a convertible mustang. Now picture a bar that runs from the top of the door on one side to the floor on the other side. Now add two to make a big X. That's why the Tbird was a 2 seater - the cross bracing was in the way. That's also one big reason the dew98 platform wasn't used for the 2005 mustang. It wasn't stiff enough for a convertible without the X braces. That's because it wasn't designed to be a convertible. The cheap, 05 mustang platform is much stiffer.

As for the Jag comments - why isn't it relevant? It's EXACTLY what you say you want. If Lincoln built it the same way as Jaguar with the same engine options and platform and features then it will be the same price!

But wait - I forgot........Lincoln is supposed to just give cars away for nothing while you'd actually have to pay for a Jag.

I'm done. Trash the MKS and Lincoln all you like. I've made my point several times and if you don't agree with it - fine.

[Deleted User] · February 2008

I wouldn''t go so far as to say the future is bright. It will easily be better than the current line-up, which pushes the definition of "decent." I'd say it is not a disaster, but it is one of the least uninspired near luxury lines out there.

The Mark LT is thankfully going away. (At least the Blackwood made an effort to be a Lincoln...the lack of an open bed option and 4WD sealed its fate). The Town Car can't even be seen as a luxury model anymore...it is antiquated, underpowered, and lacking in the amenities an over $40K car should have today.

At least the Navigator has a polarizing grill. :P Nothing much else competitive about it anymore. The MKZ is a good Buick competitor, but the lack of stability control cannot be fixed too soon. The MKX is way too close to being an Edge, but at least they started with a decent vehicle when they tacked on that strange interpretation of a Lincoln grill. The MKS has been talked to death on these boards, and it is still not here yet. It is too tall with too long overhangs, but thankfully avoids being outright dowdy like the Taurus. Too bad they couldn't have waited on the MKS a few months and introduced a really pretty one along with the 2010 Taurus. Won't it just suck for Lincoln if the revamped Taurus makes the MKS look dumpy?

The MKT will be the first Lincoln to adopt the new Lincoln look. So for years to come yet, Lincolns will look all sorts of ways, with all sorts of grills. Is the current lineup better than two years ago or five years ago? It is arguable either way, especially if you compare the past lineups to the competition of two years ago or five years ago.

jeyhoe · February 2008

Well said, Gregg. Especially this part: "I'd say it is not a disaster, but it is one of the least uninspired near luxury lines out there" If fact I'd say it IS THE least inspired. Who else even comes close to that title? Infiniti? Hah. Lexus? Get real. Cadillac? Has at least 2 or 3 models that need updating, but is class leading in some areas. Acura? Great interiors, great reliability and performance, but could use a RWD platform. Even Buick has better near-luxury vehicles than Lincoln.

akirby · February 2008

I was including the MKS which debuts in just a few months. So from an overall standpoint there will not be a "gaping hole" because the MKS will fill that hole for a large number of potential customers (but obviously not those who want RWD).

Volume wise the MKS is projected to sell 40K units - less than the LS in the first 2 years but more than the last 3 years and by using a less expensive shared platform should produce far more profit. So from a business standpoint it will fill the LS gap. From an enthusiast standpoint - probably not, even when the 340 HP EcoBoost version gets here. They (you) would have to wait for the new GRWD platform.

There is nothing wrong with the MKZ platform. It needs exterior tweaks and a new interior plus the 3.7L V6 (hopefully all coming in December) but as an entry level luxury vehicle it's perfectly fine with FWD/AWD.

The MKX needs the same tweaks as the MKZ. The Navigator needs a total exterior redesign and the new V8 engines. An EcoBoost 3.5L would probably be a nice option as well.

The TC is fleet only for all practical purposes - and that's where it belongs until the new GRWD platform is here. The MKT (we haven't seen the production version) will fill part of the bill from a retail standpoint.

One thing I don't quite understand is the criticism of the MKS interior - I think it's head and shoulders above anything else Lincoln has done. That's real leather on the dash BTW. And there is a wood package that we haven't seen yet - I think that will help. I'll reserve final judgement until I see one in person but I like it.

akirby · February 2008

When I say the future is bright, I'm really talking about long term. Lincoln didn't lose it overnight and they won't get it back that quickly either. I see a steady progression of improvements. Today Lincoln has a commitment to new models, RWD and higher volumes from the highest management positions - something they didn't have at all 3 years ago.

I know some people prefer to focus on the past misdeeds and current situation and I'll be the first to agree that as an entire brand the current lineup sucks compared to even Cadillac. Although to be fair Cadillac has 2 winners (CTS and Escalade) and 3 losers (STS, DTS, SRX) so it's not like they're doing everything right.

akirby · February 2008

My point or intent if there was one would be to convince Ford to grab the modified DEW-98 platform WHICH THEY'VE ALREADY PAID to develop, and use it for another real world class Lincoln. You, like Mulally and the rest, apparently are content to build something not quite so world class. It STILL boggles that they'll kiss this existing paid for platform good bye and turn around and begin development on something less and pay more money for return that's 5 years out at least (not cars, ROI). But what do I know?

If you want a dew98 based sedan, it's readily available:

I just don't understand your fascination with that platform. While it handled as good as a BMW, it did not provide the best ride quality and this was due to the basic suspension design - not something that could be easily fixed without compromising handling. The Jag versions are tuned more for luxury than performance so it's somewhat masked. And this came from a LS suspension engineer - you'd think he'd know. DEW98 was not the stiffest platform, either. Remember the Tbird needed cross bracing behind the seats for a convertible top - it wasn't stiff enough without them. Last but not least is the engine choices - it won't fit anything bigger than a 4.2L V8.

I guarantee that whatever new GRWD platform arrives it will be stiffer than dew98 (which is already at least 10 years old), will allow the use of larger, less expensive V8s and will support a much higher volume of vehicles thus costing less over the life of the platform.

Obviously you think they'll take a cheap Falcon platform and try to use that, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that point.

jeyhoe · February 2008

Well I'm glad we're talking again.

I don't see how you can include a car that's not on sale yet as filling a hole that's existed for 2 years, but I wont belabor the point. I will say that I like the exterior of the MK S enuf that when the MKS with AWD and the ecoboost engine FINALLY arrive (2010, 2011?) it MIGHT actually get a look from me. Though the fact that Lincoln stands to pocket a LARGER percentage of my hard-earned money than they did the last time I bought a sedan from them is NOT a selling point. I'd have to negotiate BELOW x-plan pricing for this reason or I woudnt buy it. After all, I'm not buying a car so Ford can make more money.

What cars does the MKZ compete with? It's been out now for, what, 3 years (including the Zephyr) and I've not yet seen it compared to anything. And that's probably a good thing for Lincoln. The MK Z IMHO should be a Mercury.

The Navigator could use a new interior as well. Just go back to the '06 version would be an improvement. Sell those current guages at antique stores. Oh, and if they dont improve both gas mileage AND HP then dont bother. Personally though I still love my Navigator, I get physically ill when I see the gas mileage display on the dash.

The MK X needs a new interior. The current one is go-kartish and too much hard plastic.

Town Car? Non-sequitor. Are u really saying the MK T will replace the TC?

MK S interior. Haven't sat in one, only seen pictures. Compare it to the competition, not prior Lincolns would be the correct thing to do. From what I've seen it is boring, uninspired the center stack is bleak black, the controls are parts-bin and what more can I say? Do I care that the dashboard, which I will probably never touch, is leather? Only from the standpoint that I would be very afraid that its' exosure to the sun would cause it to crack very quickly. Sit in S then sit in CTS and I doubt anyone will say the S is very good. Though I think I recall someone on here saying just that? Again, I'm working from photos in both CTS and MKS cases.

[Deleted User] · February 2008

On the contrary, a leather dash says quality to me. The stitched leather dash board in a Jaguar XJ Vanden Plas really gets noticed over the molded plastic in most. Personal taste. Anyway, other than that black plastic panel in the center stack, it may actually turn out to be a classy interior.

My opinion of the MKS: I still can't get past the overall profile. I love the detailing from the roof pillars to the front of the hood, and the line below the side windows. It really does have some interesting touches. But even though it is over 10" longer than an LS, it is more stubby looking. Why would most people want a large car that looks smaller than it is? It was a real trick to make a long rear overhang actually look short! And even with that tallness--which often can confer greater interior room--the similarly sized but not as tall Buick Lucerne offers more leg room and more interior width. So I am not sure what the payoff is for compromising a sleek look as much as they did.

jeyhoe · February 2008

Never having experienced the luxury of a Jag or a leather dash, I'll defer to you and Allen here.

"But even though it is over 10" longer than an LS, it is more stubby looking. Why would most people want a large car that looks smaller than it is"

This to be honest means nothing to me. Almost a foot longer than the LS puts it in 7 series territory or more doesnt it? I really dont share your ability to see it as being smaller than it is. To me it looks as big as it is. Foreshortening, as pointed out to Joyce by Hemingway, does not apply here. It is what it is. Doesn't look stubby to me.

[Deleted User] · February 2008

And I hope for Lincoln's sake most people see it as you do.

Did you see Robert Cumberford's comments in Automobile? He agrees with you on the interior. He says, among other things, starting with the exterior:

1. Thankfully, there is no imitation spare tire cover stamped into the trunklid sheetmetal.
2. The excessive rear overhang may recall giant Lincolns of the past, but on this car it simply looks old-fashioned. A longer wheelbase, with the wheels moved farther away from each other, would have been better.
3. The chrome around the windows is nice. Definitely a BMW line, though.
4. Big wheels are good, but not when they are placed so far aft the engine that you wonder where the passengers will be able to put their feet. The awkward proportions make the car look tall and dumpy.
5. What could possibly be the purpose of stamped indent in the middle of the hood? It simply looks - and is - wrong.
6. The wiggly, thin lines on the lower front end attract the eye, to no good purpose.
7. Small round lamp and large, black-painted hole in the bumper have no particular reason to exist. One suspects that there was a sketch where this looked good, so it was carried over.
8. The rib (raised sides of the hood) is the best single surface feature on the exterior of the MKS, providing directionality and a sense of flow.
9. The crisp side line is good, but it leaves a little triangle of sheetmetal above the front corner lamp, which doesn't integrate well with the painted areas.
10. The small chrome flash on the front fender does what, exactly? Larger ones are the latest British leitmotif, as seen on various Jaguars and Land Rovers. Is this an expression of group solidarity?

And now, his take on the interior of the car:

A. The instrument panel is a mess; curves, squares, vents, and knobs have seemingly been put wherever it was convenient (and cheap) to do so.
B. The rectangular center stack panel containing the stereo and climate controls looks like something you might have seen in a 1970s delivery truck.
C. The navigation screen is usefully large, but the bright band above it looks cheap and will likely cause a reflection in the windshield.

Anyways, Joe, you liked the exterior of the LS, so I am not surprised you like the conservative tone of the overall shape of the MKS. I always liked the side character line/shoulders of the LS, but to me it did not make up for the dumbed down BMW look front end and the uninspired rear styling. But it does age well. I don't think the MKS will.

lemko · February 2008

The DTS still sells to the over 80 set...

Hey! I'm well under 80! I'm a youthful 42!

akirby · February 2008

I don't see how you can include a car that's not on sale yet as filling a hole that's existed for 2 years

Ok, there is a hole NOW, there won't be a hole 6 months from now. That's a little different from having a product gap with nothing planned to fill it.

Though the fact that Lincoln stands to pocket a LARGER percentage of my hard-earned money than they did the last time I bought a sedan from them is NOT a selling point.

And here is the big point I think you're missing.

Why can BMW and MB afford to make low volume specialty performance models? Because they're making money! If Lincoln isn't making money on their basic lineup then how can they afford to make something exotic and extraordinary? The more quickly Lincoln can turn a profit the quicker the purse strings will open up for the things that enthusiasts want.

If you're not willing to pay dealer invoice (X plan) then why should Lincoln care about you as a customer? Sounds like you have champagne taste with a beer budget. You won't buy any popular vehicles below invoice (not counting rebates).

From what I've seen it is boring, uninspired the center stack is bleak black, the controls are parts-bin and what more can I say?

Bleak black? Parts-bin? Did you even look at the closeup pictures? That center stack is not plain black - it's a textured finish and looks very nice to me, plus there is a wood appearance package that we have not seen yet. I think it looks classy. Could it look better? Sure, but that doesn't make it bad. Check out the closeups:

http://www.autoblog.com/photos/la-2007-lincoln-mks/

Where Is Ford taking the Lincoln Motor Company?

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