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Comments
Which, in the long run, is probably a better use of that money. I can see the Transit Connect van being very popular with small businesses. I also think that the new F-150 looks great, and the new features make it even more attractive.
Like it or not, the old domestic medium-price brands are in serious trouble, except for Chrysler, and that is because it is part of the Chrysler Corporation, and it really isn't the "step up" that it used to be.
Look at the sales figures - Pontiac and Buick aren't too healthy. As the mass market brands (which would include Ford, Chevy, Toyota and Honda) have offered a wider array of models, and several luxury marques have expanded downward (and it's not just Lincoln that is doing this), together they've undermined the old medium-price brands' reason for existance.
First, wow, what an exciting Chicago auto show for Ford. A new Edge Sport!! Whoopdeedoo. Big wheels. Bet they had to throw a lot of development $$$s into that! And they're going to bring a tiny Euro van over here to compete against ... what? The Dodge Sprinter? The Chevy Express? Well lets see how they compare: Ford Transit holds 143 cu ft and gets 19/24 mpg. Dodge Sprinter (smallest one) holds 318 cu ft and gets well over 20mpg with the turbo diesel. Heck, a full-size Chevy Express cargo van holds almost TWICE what the transit will hold (267 cuft) and gets 15/20 for mpg and can tow 5900 pounds. Wonder what the transit can pull? I'm sure the Transit is great for delivering scones in London, but for the needs of most American businesses and roads? Not so much. Why would ANYONE buy it when the Chevy holds OVER TWICE as much cargo and gets just 20% less mpg? And this probably bodes ill for thefuture of the Econoline van as well.
And then there's the F150 upgrades. Oooh-boy, is that exciting or what? An ink jet printer in a truck. Bet that cost a lot. Geez, I can get an ink jet printer for FREE if I buy a cheap computer. Or for about $39.00 at Frys.
And Mulally clammed up when asked about Mercury? This is exactly what the Lincoln engineers did when I asked them about manual tranny on the 2003 LS during mania 3 in LA. And we know what happened to the manual LSes.
So here we are. I'd bet my house that Mercury will be gone in a few short years. Akirby says that all the development dollars are going into Ford and Lincoln and they've produced a big wheels Edge and a truck with an ink jet printer. Let's see - build a new Mercury Cougar to compete in the growing pony car market with Camaro and Challenger - OR - put an ink jet printer in the F-150? Yeah, this is the way to run an airline.
Personally I'm FED UP to here. All the apologists say Ford has no RWD chassis to make a proper vehicle out of. Yet there's the Mustang ... and the Jag XF. Everyone who loved the LS and longed for a replacement should take a close look at the XF because that's where Ford (Jag) went with the LS twin the S-type. That's where Lincoln COULD have gone with the LS. In a less expensive package than the Jag of course. Could a RWD Lincoln sharing components with the XF have sold? At the LS or a bit higher price point? When all Lincoln has is the Mazda6/MKZ to offer as a car? What do you think? Now Jag and LR are Indian cars. Tata! Volvo is about to be put on the block. That leaves Ford. And Lincoln. Geez, this is great. Hey, Mulally, if you want to really consolidate, here's an idea for Ford - ONE model that comes in any color, as long as it's black!
To paraphrase Ronald Reagan when he switched parties "I'm not leaving Ford and Lincoln/Mercury. Ford and Lincoln/Mercury have left me.
Of course your advice to not rely on CR alone is good. Like I said, I just reinstated my subscription which had lapsed for years. MT, C&D also come to my mailbox and I read voraciously on the net.
Does that mean your leaving these boards too!?!?
Ford will get a much bigger ROI from these 2 vehicles than they will from adding another Mercury right now.
The Mustang CANNOT support a sedan. I don't know why, but it can't or they would have already done it. The mustang platform is the epitome of what was wrong with Ford North America. They built a one-off RWD V8 car platform that can't be used for anything else. The cost must be absorbed 100% by the Mustang at 150k-200K units per year. The new GRWD platform will fix all of that but it takes time.
I get the feeling that anything other than a RWD luxury sports sedan is a failure in your book. Open your eyes - RWD sedans aren't going to save Ford. The future is in small and midsized cars, trucks and crossovers.
BTW, I did see the Automobile review of the MKS. While overly harsh in places, the interior is an awful busy place what with all the surfaces and that cheap looking cneter stack. And I agree that while a substantial improvement over the 500/Taurus. it still has that tall, slightly dumpy look, due to the long overhangs and short wheelbase (econo-car proportions in front). One reader here thought that the trunk/tail actually looked too stubby, even though it is longer than usual for that size car. That just reinforces what the reviewer was saying. Pushing the wheels out a bit closer to the ends would not have been too difficult engineering-wise, but they didn't and are now stuck with the result for many years. Still, we can all say no matter what, it is an improvement to Lincoln's model mix.
Oh, and yes, I agree that Buick and Pontiac and Mercury are all in trouble going after a market that largely no longer exists. But at least Buick and Pontiac are beginning to reinvent themselves and redefine their markets.
The Transit might work for some folks. It does fill a gap between the HHR panel and the Sprinter. But I dunno - businesses get nice tax deductions on these vehicles, nicer still if they're >6000 pounds. The transit mpg isnt that good to pick it over a full size van that far outworks it. I'm sure it's good for Europe's different needs. Maybe it'll work here, maybe not. It certainly wont save Ford. And neither will the ink jet printer or the tool finder in the F150 or any of the other great innovations that I'm too stupid to understand.
If the future is in those vehicles u mention, why the mkt? why the flex? why the mkr? why the HUGE taurus? The future, like u say, IS in small cars and Ford has SQUAT in that market as well unless u count the Mazda 3. The Verve or whatever looked nice. We'll see it when, 2013?
And just how much inverstment does it take to bring an existing vehicle across the ocean or add a free printer to a truck? Bull. Like I said, they might as well go back to the Model T at this point. Except for microsoft, that's the extent of their technology AFAICS.
I drove a rental Passat while on travel. NEVER been a VW fan, but that was a heckuva nice car. turbo fast and almost 30mpg. Ford has NOTHING to compete with that either. Oh yeah, I know - just W A I T....
Can't fault much (if any) of what you say, & it's interesting to contemplate what the Ford fanboys have in response. Two sides to every story, and all that.
What are you driving now?
Well, I'm speaking in the future tense
Give me one good reason why I would buy their mediocre offering, hoping for something better (no guarantee, or real expectation, that it will be) when it makes more sense to buy a competitor's product???
Doesn't Ford even notice what their competition is doing...forget the imports, what about GM and Chrysler???...don't they see their American competetion getting better while they simply languish???...I do realize that selling Jag and LR and whatever else takes time, but they cannot sit still while everybody else improves products that people seem to want...
No, they can't live off the F150 forever...and, if they don't watch out, the F150 may become the great product sold by someone other than Ford...
If you look closely at January sales you will see a lot of good news - a lot of new products had better sales than a year ago, with lower incentives. The older products are still dogs - Explorer e.g. Escape and Focus are up. Crossovers are doing well - the Edge outsold the Murano 2 to 1 IIRC. I think even the Taurus was up slightly.
Once again you're bemoaning an entire company just because they don't build the car that YOU want - a RWD luxury sports sedan. We get it. And feel free to blame Bill Ford for all of Ford's current product shortcomings. But don't ignore what Fields, Mulally and Kuzack (and now Farley) have done in such a short timeframe. 2 years ago Ford didn't have any plans to get to where they need to be. They do now. Why you expect them to get there overnight I just don't understand.
Oh, man, now you're just shootin blanks. Everyday you're on here arguing how great Ford is and how these new Direct infection turbo charged V6es are gonna set the world on fire Then today you say but for an LS follow on they would have to have a V8 bigger than a Jaguar to be a Lincoln??? This is getting ridiculous.
How about this - a modified DEW-98 under a modified LS body (he!! it could even BE the mks body - I kinda like it) with a 3.5L DI twin turbo under the hood? I'm waiting to hear WHY Ford did not do that instead flipped the BIG BIRD to all the idiots like me who bought into the LS, talked up the LS, went to MANIAs, met the engineers and marketers, who PRETENDED to listen to what we wanted and then built a freakin FWD volvo for us. All the time folks are saying "You bought a LINCOLN!!??" And we're sayin - "just wait'll you see what Lincoln's got in the works ..." And then CRASH. The Zephyr I mean mark Z I mean mkz I mean emm kay zee WHATEVER. Yeah yeah "Explorer" Yeah Yeah "Firestone" Yeah Yeah Just W A I T. No, YOU wait.
You had an LS. Now you have a Fusion. Are you in line for a Focus next? I dont want to go in that direction. I'd like my next car to be something better than my LS. And Ford and Lincoln and Mercury have nothing better than my LS. NOTHING. They dont even have anything PLANNED that will be the equal of the LS, IMHO. You aint gonna tell me that some Aussie Falcon cloned chassis is gonna come close to DEW-98. All it'll be is another Pontiac GTO type Mercury Capri type Aussie car. Apologies to anyone from down under reading this. Like marsha7 says why should anyone wait around for 3, 4, 5 years for Ford to do SOMETHING worth driving? Like marsha7 says, the engines are underpowered and I'll add they also use more gas than competitors. Their BRAKES are almost universally worse than their competitors. They still AFAIK havent fixed the exploding police car problem. Ford actually told Volvo that Volvo's strength standards for car roofs were too demanding - too expensive to put in Ford products. Is this the car company you want to defend? He!!, lets talk about the Pinto while we're at it, eh?
You keep making this about ME. It aint about me. Ford's sales stink. So it aint just me who thinks Ford doesnt have the products. I could go down the line of Ford's products and not find a single one except MAYBE the F150 that's truly competitive. You can look at their sales chart and see teeny tiny increases here and there. Yet overall they keep losing market share and I personally dont see the up side any time soon. Now unbelievably I'm hearing Ford execs tell us how really crappy the stuff is they're trying to foist on us NOW, but just WAIT til we see the next generation and how absolutely wonderful they will be. Geez, and you say "well at least they're honest"! Ohh-boy. Stupid is as stupid does is what I'd say. Now I even hear them bragging about one of their cars that's designed by a woman! WOW, I'll run right out and buy it now that I know that! Hey - GM's design director now is BLACK. And I dont hear anyone at GM blasting that all over the place. SO WHAT? If the car is good, I dont care if it was designed by a blind alien. I dont give a rip about that. Design and build a decent car or just fade away. That's all.
Yessir, yessir, three bags full. Back in the day I thought that "something better than my LS" would be the new one. Well, that happy thought didn't last especially long. It'll be German or Asian for me, next time.
So, here we are. I'm never going to have a Lincoln/Ford/US car ever again. I'm sure the cohort that gives a rip would fit in a phone booth. Remember those?.
Ford wants to sell least-common-denominator s*** (let's say stuff) to the masses. What's not to like? Honda & Toyota have shown the way. Why be a leader when you can be a follower?
As always, YMMV.
Ford wants to sell least-common-denominator s*** (let's say stuff) to the masses."
Yeah, most German and Asian automakers have a commitment to progress. Compare today's 3 series to that in 2000. Or the Infiniti G or even the controversial M (which I would have if I could afford it) Or even a Lexus or Acura. (Maybe even Buick?) Some may be FWD. But they're much better FWDs than they were 8 years ago. Performance, interior luxury and most times reliability. Why wait for a modified volvo? And I'll add Cadillac to the list on the basis of the CTS and Escalade alone. THough Caddy needs to keep it up for awhile before they join the A-list.
Now compare what your Lincoln commitment to the LS turned out to be ... um ... er ... there doesn't appear to be one ... what? The Zephyr? Umm, NO. The vaporware mks? With the glued-on snout? I DON'T think so. Once bitten, twice shy.
Developing a RWD platform jointly with Australia is no different than what Lincoln did with Jag on dew98, except it will have orders of magnitude more units, will fit bigger and cheaper V8s and will thus be significantly cheaper than dew98. If you think this is just a rebadge like the GTO you have no idea what you're talking about.
Why don't you go buy a CTS and come back in 3 or 4 years. There's obviously no reason for you to keep lingering.
No money for a CTS. But you're right, I guess this is no place for me now. You're the second asking me to leave. I'm too stupid to understand a truck with a tool finder or how an Aussie RWD platform is the best thing Ford can DEW for it's one last "luxury" marquee. Cadillac has it's own platform for it's world class cars, but a shared Aussie platform is fine for Lincoln. Just wait and see. ANd wave bye-bye to Mercury as Fomoco consolidates down to 2 brands. That'll save it.
So I guess I should just leave all you comrades and sychophants to pat each other on the back and congradulate Alan (Mulally) in Wonderland for all the great cars and CUVs and ink jet printers on sale now and in the works to save Ford. I think this board is beginning to operate the way the Ford board of directors did for a long time.
Do I have to leave the boards that talk about the cars I own too? Or maybe I should just sell them so I wont bother you any more?
ROTFLMAO!
There has been entirely too much blather on this forum about how Nasser not liking the sea of white faces had something to do with Ford's nosedive. Talent comes in any color, including the white male variety. For all I know, Jac Nasser may have been an [non-permissible content removed], but Bill Ford did a lot more to bring this ship down. Had Nasser still been at the helm, the Jaguar F roadster would be on the road. The Continental would have had a better chance of being built. Lincoln might have been in PAG. The 2004 Jaguar XJ might have been a more bold success rather than dying on the vine, and I am pretty sure the 2008 Focus wouldn't have looked as it does. (BTW, what were they thinking with a TWO bar grill and that air opening below?...looks like nothing else Ford.)
Stay Joe. You balance out Alan who knows a lot and at the same time is too quick to rationalize any Ford move. Plus, you are funny, and we all (and Ford) could use a regular dose of humor.
Since you mentioned Jac Nasser, wasn't he the one who took Ford, with 20 BILLION cash in the bank, down to 4-5 billion before he was discarded???...wasn't he the biggest money waster of all, or do I have the wrong man???
I tend to look at things more from a business standpoint and global platforms is the only way to go. I just don't understand why some people think that a global platform engineered with Jag is fantastic but one engineered 10 years later with the Aussies will be crap.
I don't know about that, but if it is true, I bet some of it was invested in product that was canned once Billy took the helm. And didn't Mr. Ford take them down well over 20 billion during his tenure?
I wasn't talking about you.....
As for global platforms - sure, Duh. As for selling Jag and LR, I dont have access to corporate finances but I do know that Jag and LR have drained lots of $$$s but they're now at the top of their game with great product. Too bad they have to go now.
As for Lincoln, I read here that Ford has Lincoln on the right path and Lincoln is going back to RWD and on and on. Yet Lincoln still has nothing to sell, no RWD for the forseeable future. Only a panned thus far mks fwd appliance coming on line. Patience is a virtue, but it only goes so far. Timliness of product introduction might be a bigger virtue. Had Lincoln done with the LS what Jag did with the S-Type, then we'd have a new RWD LS NOW. Based on a Jag. But Noooooo. We're told it's too expensive. Yet Cadillac does exactly that (not on a Jag of course, but a RWD platform designed to be a Beemer killer. Lincoln is waiting for something to be derived from the Aussie Falcon or whatever.
As for great RWD platforms can be designed anywhere, I beg to differ. For example, pick the best designer of RWD platforms from this list. Which would u want your next really expensive car to be based on:
Yugo
Kia
Ford of Australia
Jaguar
Trabant
I know which one I would pick.
Finally it's a shame that anyone who wants to discuss where Ford is taking Lincoln has to be a sychophant. One who thinks that reducing the Ford Motor Company to selling Euro and Aussi Fords in America and eliminating ALL brands except Ford and Lincoln is the future of the company. I dont think that. So I'm not welcome here. Well, OK. I will come back when I see some positive news for Ford and Lincoln. Like akirby implies, that will probably not be for 3 or 4 years at best. By then, it'll be Ford and Lincoln only. Dealerships will have drastically consolidated. Mazda will be the only bright spot in the Ford portfolio. And Lincoln will have another FWD appliance called a people mover. And MAYBE a RWD mkr with a cowcatcher grille. Meanwhile, Caddy will have the 3rd gen of the CTS and second of STS and a Provoq crossover and ... I'm sure it'll all work out though. :P
A Town Car they haven't seriously altered since 1997. A Navigator with a controversial grill (that looks like no other Lincoln grill past or present) and 1998 body still sporting the same 300 hp. The MKZ way too close to the Milan on which it is based. An MKX which shares greenhouse and too many body panels with the Edge (not to mention engine, sunroof, and all dimensions), and a FWD V6 Acura RL type thing that is still not here yet, even though the Ford equivalent has been on the road (sort of) since 2004. A people mover with no intro date even established yet. A RWD sedan that may be years off yet.
Anyway, it's not really stuff for loathing. Just difficult to generate a lot of pride in yet.
You may think I am kidding. And you are right. Latest technologies are developed by Volvo, Mazda and Fords of Australia and Europe (or by any engineer team in the word provided they do not live in USA and do not carry American passport) - and as soon as they become outdated and cheap enough – can be passed DOWN to lesser brands like Lincoln, NA Ford and Mercury Or not – forget about Mercury.
America is the land of engineers. Kidding again
Interesting.
That said, where is Lincoln headed? Down the toilet?
Probably not -- it'll float along (plenty of carbs) with all the other also-rans. It wasn't so long ago that I thought Lincoln was better than that.
Why not at least acknowledge the positives that we've seen in the last few months:
100% unique to Lincoln sheetmetal (started with the MKS)
Commitment to RWD for future platforms
New luxury features/technology (keyless go, integrated LED keypad, adaptive HID headlamps, etc.)
Lincoln specific engines (even though the 3.7L needs direct injection to be fully competitive)
Commitment to high power engines (3.5L/3.7L Twin Turbo, 6.2L Boss, 5.0L to replace the 4.6L modular V8)
Commitment to spend the money necessary to get Lincoln back to where it should be
Why sell Jaguar? It's still a money pit and takes money that could be spent on Lincoln. Selling it also allows Lincoln to move upmarket. Didn't you ever wonder why the LS only got a 3.9L engine while the S-type got 4.2L?
Fixing Lincoln takes time, money and commitment. The money and the commitment are finally there. They just need time.
With over 100 years of existence, I simply cannot believe that they cannot put a great engine in some chassis from some model and simply give it new sheetmetal that fits together like a fine sewing machine...
I am not saying that every chassis design that will ever exist exists now, but surely all those years of engineering they have something "on the shelf" that can be used...after all, they REALLY are not reinventing the wheel, just altering a few beams to support the engine, tranny and body...
Everybody makes it sound like Ford is a startup with no history behind it...
Couldn't they tweak the Crown Vic frame, drop in an efficient engine with sufficient HP (obviously not the 4.6L I have), and redesign the body and update the interior???...it may not even look like the CV/GM/TC of today, but they will have a full size car that CAN appeal to those who like larger cars, and anyone who buys Caddys or Lexus LS, or Avalons may consider these...it is their OUTDATED styling that is hurting those cars...new sheetmetal will change the image for 90% of the potential buyers, since they are planning on discarding the elder market anyway if they only sell those cars to fleets and taxis...
60 more HP, 60 more ft/lb tork, totally new dashboard, headlights (HID) and taillights (LEDs), they could have anew family sedan on the market in months...since most folks can't tell a Maverick from a Comet, give them new names and advertise their room and crash safety ratings, and you could have a home run on the cheap...
And let me ask you one more question - do you suggest that new Ford Falcon will be the luxury sedan competing with likes of Mercedes, BMW, Lexus and Infinity? (I would probably add Caddy to this list only if I were sure that Caddy lasts its momentum and do not switch down to G8 platform after Lutz leaves and starts making "American luxury" again so to speak. I am not saying G8 platform is bad, I am just saying it is affordable as everything else developed in Australia).
As for what happened? Personally I think it was simply complacency because the trucks and SUVs were selling so well and making so much money that it was easy to put all the money there and ignore the cars. It was also easy to use expensive one-off platforms because they were still making money hand over fist. They even let the trucks and SUVs evolve several different platforms although they started together. When truck and SUV sales started to tank they lost their cash cows and found that their localized, non shared platforms were costing too much and they were several years behind the competition in the car and crossover arenas. They've been playing catch-up ever since.
The only good thing Bill Ford did for the company was step aside and hire Mulally.
I did waste my time looking at a Grand Marquis LS this past fall, but even a lover of old-school Detroit iron found little to justify purchasing it. The Town Car is just more of the same only bigger. I guess a used Grand Marquis might make a good replacement for my 1988 Buick Park Avenue, (which itself still seems like a nicer car than a new Grand Marquis) if it ever bites the rust.
Saddest is the MKZ. It has so much wasted potential. It could've been a CTS contender, but Ford was too lazy and too cheap to try very hard.
How is that really possible? It's FWD and can't fit a V8. It does compete with gregg's favorite example of sheet metal differentiation, the ES350.
I could see where the MKS style grille, interior and gadgets along with a 300 hp 3.7L DI engine and AWD would make it quite sporty (perhaps even a manual?) but I still don't think it's in the same class as the CTS. And up until this year I hated the CTS.
Though in the MKZ's defense, it's not at the CTS price point either. I think a lot of people on this board would like it better if everything was the same about it, but it was called a Super-Fusion.
The lack of RWD is horrible for Lincoln. Does anyone know if the AWD system that the MKS is planned to use can handle full time AWD? It's not RWD, but it would make for a more competitive drive configuration.
CTS base price = $32,745
MKZ base price = $30,555
Not a huge difference.
Yes, AFAIK, the AWD MKS is full time.
As for the MKZ/CTS price comparison, using True Delta to compare the features (i.e. automatic, heated seats and the like) came out to a price difference of 7,500 for comparably equipped. I know True Delta isn't the end-all-be-all, but 7,500 is a lot.
Hmmm. How much do I add to mkz to get a world class RWD chassis that competes with BMW?
I'll take the 6 speed manual in the CTS over an automatic that allows no driver control. How much do I add to mkz to get auto-stick? Hmmm.
Heated seats are standard on mkz? Bet that pleases all the customers in Arizona, Florida etc who need heated seats like fish need bicycles.
Oh, and how much do I add to the mark Z to get 15% more HP and torque?
And stabilitrak is standard on the CTS. Not available on the Z. I could go on, but ...
I'm supposed to be positive so I'll say that if you guys are right and the CTS is $7500 more than a mkz for "comparable" vehicles, then mkz has a much-deserved price advantage. However, back-to-back test drives would probably convince most people that the mkz is not comparable to a CTS. I ws behind a red one this AM with 3.6 with direct injection - what a beautiful automobile. Wish I could afford one. Cant afford a markz either.
My other question about Ford squandering money and future in 90s was more rhetoric – I knew answer already long time ago.
If we talk about Jaguar platform it was expensive and not so great after all as many may think. For Lincoln it was great one but it did not win any accolades and LS/S-type finished dead last in any comparo with German and Japanese cars. If I were on market for RWD right now I would prefer one of Infinity great RDW coupes or sedans or CTS. Both provide great value and performance. Compared to Acura or Lincoln – price is almost same but quality and performance a way ahead. And still better value and may be even better quality than Mercedes or BMW.
You can argue that money spent elsewhere (on Explorer e.g.) would have been better spent on Lincoln but hindsight is 20/20, SUV profits were huge and Ford miscalculated future fuel prices.
My question is why throw money at Jag and then sell it and throw Lincoln in the dumpser and keep it as your luxury marquee? None of this makes any sense to me.
Of course we both know the answer to this. Lincoln had to be the stepson to Jag. There was a lot of talk about exactly this in the meetings with engineers at the LS Mania events. It is certainly understandable.
However, I still maintain that a Lincoln clone of the XF would be a far preferable car to be waiting for than a clone of the Taurus. AND, Ford would have better amortized investment in the DEW-98 mods for the XF AND once Jag is gone, Lincoln could put a supercharged, turbocharged, whatever engne in it and have a world class RWD chassis and drivetrain to compete with the CTS and the others. As it is, Lincoln wont compete in this market again til what, 2012 or so? If then. Until then, look out, Buick, Lincoln's gunnin for the FWD Lucerne market.
It still makes no sense to me. Sorry, guess I'm just thick-headed. :confuse: