Where Is Ford taking the Lincoln Motor Company?

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  • 08outtie08outtie Member Posts: 13
    I have to admit that I haven't read all the messages posted, but I'm gonna jump right in to the discussion.

    I went to China earlier this year, I realized there were more Lincoln and Buick than any other cars by other manufacturers. I'm guessing both of these two brands drifted from their main brands (Ford and Chevrolet respectively) are focusing in the mainland China market where people still fancy American products almost as much as European and over Japanese products.

    People over the world are in the wild pursuit of horsepower with larger and larger engine and high-tech suspension setup, but the people in mainland China are a little different because their quality of gasoline and quality of the road surface are still not up to the standard of the rest of the world. As such, the driver in China are looking for boat like ride from a car which can negotiate with large potholes and inefficient engine which won't bog down due to bad gasoline.

    (Obviously there are extremely wealthy people in China who prefer BMW and MB, but the middle class is clearly a larger pie for all the manufacturer to fight over for.)

    I don't know for fact, but may be my observation can explain at least part of the reason why Lincole gave up the battle of the entry-level-luxury market in the USA, giving way to the middle-class Chinese market. However, even if this is true, Lincoln is still in serious competition in China with VW which is being sold in the same market segment in China.

    just my 2cents.
  • jkr2106jkr2106 Member Posts: 248
    I'm not saying the consumer knows the difference between F/R/4/AWD, but surely they know that the cars drive differently after simple testdrives.
  • cklho818cklho818 Member Posts: 29
    I think Lincoln should be positioned as the Luxury brand of Ford. Eliminate Mercury entirely to save money so you can build better, more luxurious Lincolns down the road. See...it's a company problem since they can't eliminate brand names because it's got a history. It's not making money and will make the company history!

    Kind of like the Toyota - Lexus strategy

    Ford - Lincoln as to

    Toyota - Lexus : Nissan - Infiniti : Honda - Acura : VW - Audi

    Make it simple and easy for consumer to recognize branding. Recreate an image such that consumer can recognize Ford is the brand for regular economical cars and it's luxury brand, Lincoln, provides more if you are willing to pay. With that said, Lincoln would then needs to really put some thoughts and resources to make consumers feel that it is a Luxurious brand for the money they spent. Don't just use the same crap from a Crown Victoria and cover it with a Lincoln badge and crappy woodtrim and call it luxury! Just look at Lincoln's lineup, come on!

    MKX as to Edge
    MKZ as to Fusion
    Navigator as to Expedition
    LT as to F150
    Town Car as to Crown Vic

    I am spending more because it's got a Lincoln badge on a Ford car; not because it's got the style and class I really want. The above vehicles share the same chasis, wheel base and engine and almost the same interior.

    See if Ford can't bring in the Mondeo under Ford badge. Why not put it under Lincoln?? Reinvent Lincoln, please!

    Okkkk...I haven't start on Volvo, Mazda, Jaguar, and Land Rover yet.

    In short, Volvo, Mazda, and Land Rover are keeps. Sell Jag. Who buys a Jag nowadays?
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    A lot of what you say makes sense.

    But the answer to "Who buys a Jag" might be "everybody who can remotely afford one" if the XF is as good as it looks.
  • No way, no how. Do you really think they even know whether their crossover is FWD or RWD based? I think all they know is it's a Mercedes or a BMW. The cachet is in the brand, not the drivetrain setup.

    This has been asserted before here, but it is simply not true. Similar to your several times repeated assertion with no data that most people cannot tell that the Explorer and Mountaineer are the same vehicle.

    Sure, I am more "car-oriented" than the average consumer, but doing my own personal poll, it is obvious to me that most people know which are the drive wheels on their ride. For example, two different women in their 60s who never read the auto press and have driven Lexus and Infiniti (and a Ford Tempo among others). Both expressed concern about Infiniti moving to RWD on their less expensive cars. FWD still has a draw for the non-enthusiast in northern climates. Haven't found a single person here today (I work in a medical setting) who hasn't known which wheels drive their cars.

    People also seem to know the difference between 4WD and AWD. Sure, they may not care whether it is 99% FWD most of the time, if it works well. As to cachet, the brands at the top of that perception get there because they use driveline setups that are less compromised. So the driveline setup contributes to the cachet, even if it is not the actual driveline people are focusing on.

    Example: Audi has been trying for years to get the same respect as Mercedes and BMW. Audi has wonderful interiors and often undercuts its German rivals price-wise. But it continues to be hampered by the hoops it must jump through and weight it must add (or in the case of the A8 the aluminum body complexity to bring the weight down) in order to get the handling and power ratios it needs to compete in that rarified atmosphere. Audi is now biting the bullet in another way. The R8 is not FWD and its newest FWD cars (08 A5 and 09 A4 have moved the engine back a bit and the front wheels further forward in an effort to overcome some of that FWD heavy front bias plowing effect. In the future, they will have even more RWD and rear biased rides.

    This is why Lincoln knows it must get that RWD sedan to market, because FWD/AWD alone will never garner the same respect. The MKS will sell to my 60 year old neighbor who likes FWD, comfort, and will never take a corner over 2 mph because she might tip. But it will not help Lincoln compete reputation-wise with BMW/Mercedes/Cadillac any more than the Volvo S80 has helped that brand's overall reputation.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    The R8 is not FWD

    Well thats cause the R8 is really a Gallardo with a different version of Quattro.
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    I understand your reasoning, but the fact is that German crossovers command higher prices. So, the American consumer at least percieves these rear-biased crossovers as more prestigeous. Again, I'm not saying get rid of the FWD crossovers, but I'd rather see Lincoln competing with Mercedes not Lexus; leave Mercury to do that. Also, the ones that are RWD biased (Infiniti FX and EX, Cadillac SRX) are obviously more sporty and less appliancey (like a Lexus or Acura).

    Mercury cannot compete w/ Honda or Toyota,much less Lexus.
    Lincoln will NEVER be a Mercedes competitor.
    Ford will never spend the money on engineering and innovation to topple Mercedes.

    The RX doen't compete in the serious luxury arena dominated by Mercedes and BMW; the Lexus brand just isn't there yet and the RX is near-luxury (where I want Mercury to be). Sales don't mean much; how many Rolls-Royce's were sold last month? I bet Toyota sold more!

    Actually, the RX is the best selling lux SUV, so it competes quite nicely.
    Sales,within the same market DOES matter.
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    Actually, a 61 Lincoln probably would have run over the average BMW on the autobahn.
    Most bimmers of that era were small,slow cars.
    It wasn't until the 70's,and really the 80's that BMW got serious about building high performance sedans.
    The lesson is that BMW continued to improve and Lincoln plateaued, and then slid backward.
  • jkr2106jkr2106 Member Posts: 248
    Mercury cannot compete w/ Honda or Toyota,much less Lexus.
    Way to state the obvious ;) I said way back when that this is what I would like to see in the future. In order to keep all 3 brands they need a purpose, and since L-M share showroom floors, they need a similar mission that's different than Ford. That's my train of thought. What do you think they should do?

    Lincoln will NEVER be a Mercedes competitor.
    Right... If you can see into the future, maybe you should get off edmunds and buy some lottery tickets! I'm sure many thought Lexus would never be where it is now, but nevertheless the LS is nipping at the heels of the S-Class and 7-Series. Give Lincoln a decade and we'll see what's up.

    Ford will never spend the money on engineering and innovation to topple Mercedes.
    Never is such a strong word. Ford is doing what they need to spice up their "core brands", as it likes to call them. Aston Martin is gone. Jag and LR are on the choppng block. They've leveraged most of their assets. Where do you think that money's going? Granted Mercedes has a huge lead, and Ford will not come out with this amazing lineup in 2010 that will destroy Merc, but they are going to do what they can to try and catch up over the next few product cycles. It will be interesting to watch. Look at Cadillac. GM doesn't have a lot of money, but the CTS has been improved since its debut and by the time they complement it with a true 3-series competitor and S-class fighter, Caddy will be very close to catching up.

    Actually, the RX is the best selling lux SUV, so it competes quite nicely.
    Yea, it competes nicely in its market (near-lux midsize crossovers).

    Sales,within the same market DOES matter.
    But I don't think they are in the same market; the X5 and ML cost substantially more. Perhaps we can agree to disagree on the segmentation of the crossover market. I believe the ML and X5 are a tier above the RX and that is where Lincoln should operate, not in the near-lux arena in which they currently compete.
    My thinking (as with the Rolls example) is that you can't expect cars that cost more to sell as many copies and when cars cost differently, they are not in the same class. Have you driven them. I'll confess I've never driven the ML (though I've been in one), but the X5 is waaaay better than the RX.

    I'm eager to hear what you'd do for Lincoln and Mercury if you were running FoMoCo...
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    This has been asserted before here, but it is simply not true. Similar to your several times repeated assertion with no data that most people cannot tell that the Explorer and Mountaineer are the same vehicle.

    Why is it that MY opinions are always wrong but yours are always correct when both are based on a statistically insignificant sample size? Your co-workers are not a good sample. Go get 100 people at random in a shopping mall and you'll get a different result.

    I'm not saying Lincoln doesn't need RWD - I'm just saying there's a market for FWD/AWD sedans and that it will meet sales expectations.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    Many of us think we know what Ford should have done over the past few years but hindsight is 20/20 so my comments reflect where they go from here with what they have to work with or what we know is on the horizon. By the way, this is only dreaming - I know most of it is not going to happen.

    Mercury nameplate- keep it and move it upscale and cover areas that Ford does not cover.

    Sable - drop it because it is not needed and doesn't sell. Until Jill or even Jill's mother gets behind it, it is just dead weight.

    Milan: Use the upcoming larger Mazda platform for the Milan so the longer wheelbase provides calmer ride and more room. Drop the 4 cylinder base model and have the 3.0 standard and the 3.5 optional. Use the same level of sound insulation as the current MKZ and add rear seat AC vents, hood struts and power tilt/telescope wheel. Think premium mid-size mainstream sedan moving upscale from the Fusion.

    Grand Marquis: Soldier on until new RWD platform is ready. My preference would have been to drop the current panther platform and let Mercury have the MKS (with the Grand Marquis name) as the replacement. Too late for that, though.

    Lincoln MKZ: Drop it - not needed with the upgraded Milan.

    Lincoln MKS: It will be here next summer and should be the entry level Lincoln. More car than an ES350 for about the same money. Options (upcoming twinforce) can move it way ahead of the ES350 and into Acura RL and Cadillac STS/DTS territory where it would still be competitive.

    MKR: Think LS replacement only more refined and more expressive - styling like the concept. Twin-force power.

    Town Car: Keep the panther platform for the time being but use only the stretched "L" version. Restyle along the lines of the Continental concept. Power from the 5.4 3 valve engine used in the Navigator. Think ultimate American luxury - large, stately, powerful. BOF construction works well for the livery folks, too.
  • You know there are so many creative ideas that could work for Lincoln and Mercury. We don't all have the same ideas of course, but it does show that a little brainstorming and some work could really turn things around in a hurry, even with the current lineup. Like your idea of the 3.0 or 3.5 liter Milan (no 4 cylinder). This could be easily done and would differentiate this Mercury Fusion a bit.

    Has Ford itrself thought about real things to differentiate the models without breaking the bank? Doesn't appear to have. Fake satin aluminum does not another model make. Beating a dead horse I know, but it really is sad how a group of doofuses like us can think of a whole raft of things to try while waiting for things like new RWD architecture. Stuff that doesn't require development of new architecture yesterday. (Beat, beat)
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    Just a couple more things:

    Mercury should have a sporty luxury coupe built off the Mustang platform (or the MKR platform, depending upon what it is). The car should be much more luxurious and refined than a Mustang but still be sporty and expressive. Base engine could be the 3.7 V6 with the Mustang 4.6 3 valve optional.

    MKX is OK but it needs the 3.7 engine and some interior upgrades. Finally, make a "SuperGator" Navigator with the supercharged 5.4 engine making at least 450 HP. I am so not interested in a Lincoln version of the Flex, I won't even comment on what it needs.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    I was writing a follow-up to my own post when yours came in. I know it is not cheap to create new sheet metal but I agree with your continuous preaching that Ford, Merc, and Lincoln look too much alike.

    Grills and rear end treatments are easy, but to my eye, the roofline does a lot to change the appearance of otherwise similar vehicles. Remember how much different the notch-back Cougars of the late 80s and early 90s looked from the fastback T-Bird? The roofline is what made the big difference.

    Ford needs to do a better job and the current Taurus and Sable are good examples. They didn't even bother making the rear ends any different. The Sable could have had a thicker "C" pillar by making the rearmost window smaller. Tail lights that go all the way across the back of the Sable would have given it a different look from the Taurus, too. As it is, there is simply no point in continuing both of these D3s. They don't do anything to market them anyway. No one would know if one got the axe because no one knows they exist.
  • Why is it that MY opinions are always wrong but yours are always correct when both are based on a statistically insignificant sample size?

    Because I am right and you are wrong. Decreed by God. Sorry...can't do anything about that. :P

    Really, to be honest, we are both opinionated blowhards. Except you really do have good inside information sometimes, and answers that none of the rest of us are privy to. I frankly like goading you, because you are often too quick to defend Ford and their workings and plans, or to make the obvious excuses when there is no defense.

    I am one ot those lifelong Ford fanboys who no longer buys the brand. For one reason because I am so incensed about how they squandered that lead built up from the previous debacle period (pre-Taurus), a lead that had some pundits predicting Ford would overtake GM for world sales leadership, Instead they began (with few exceptions) issuing either unexceptional products (warmed over stale ones) or big trucks and SUVs. This was a company that could have afforded visionaries and could have aimed very high indeed. They didn't...woulda, coulda, shoulda.

    What it meant for me (and it IS all about me, isn't it? :P ) is that I no longer had anything with which to replace my Ranger (tried the SportTrac...what a mediocre thing with lousy mileage), and now when I can now afford a Lincoln there is nothing to buy. Like you have said before, I want them to build what I will buy. I understand that right now they need to build what a lot of people will buy. But I am not convinced they know what that is, any more than I do.

    The MKS is neither what I want to buy, nor will it return others to Lincoln in droves. It's better than nothing and an improvement over the MKZ, and like we have both said, it will likely sell. But it will do little to bolster Lincoln's reputation. My hope is that it will help enough with the bottom line that maybe someday before I am in Depends and babbling, I may get to buy a Lincoln that will not be a major compromise. That will somehow make up for issuing one of the most beautiful concept cars ever (the 2002 Continental) and at the same time kill any chance that anything like it would ever be issued.

    I suspect whoever allowed them to put such long honking noses on the MKS (it's 204" on a 114" wheelbase ferchrissakes!) and on the Flex (the concept's nose was so much more tidy), will probably start stretching and poking at the upcoming MKR in all the wrong places too. Prove me wrong guys. Prove me wrong. For once have the cojones to issue a production vehicle that really looks like the concept. A Lincoln before I die would be great.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,620
    every time I see the title for this thread, I fill in the blank.

    I used to say "down the toilet" or some such.

    Now it's more "who cares?"

    The car-acquiring (gotta allow for leases) masses must have some perception of Lincoln. God knows what it is. I know what mine is, but that's way beyond irrelevant.

    For the people who are looking for a new car, where does Lincoln fit in? I'm guessing in a pretty sad place, but I could be wrong. If it's a "price point," then someone needs to bring the fork.

    It's done.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I remember when owning a Lincoln was something impressive. My childhood doctor had a red 1964 Continental. My Uncle Daniel had an awesome 1975 Lincoln Continental sedan. A guy in my high school class took his date to the prom in his dad's 1979 Town Car. Heck, I remember when the 1990 Lincoln Town Car was Motor Trend's Car of the Year.

    To me, Lincoln is the type of car I might have purchase 15 years ago, but today is so out-classed by both its foreign and domestic rivals it isn't funny. Shoot, a well-optioned Chrysler 300 can put any Lincoln to shame.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    When a brand has been so horribly neglected like Lincoln it takes time to build it up again. When you're 0 for 20 you don't swing for the fences - you try to hit singles and doubles. We'd all like to see a 400 hp RWD MKR but the platform simply isn't there.

    The signs are there if you read between the lines - the MKR concept shows future styling direction. Mulally took over the capital budget from the board so he decides what to invest in (this should speed up new development a lot - apparently that was one of the previous problems). Mulally also demanded global platform development which means the U.S. and Australia can jointly develop RWD V8 capable platforms. And you guys may not care about gadgets but look at the technology that's in the MKS - yes, some of it was here in 99 when the LS debuted and then shelved but a lot of it is new and cutting edge stuff. And that's important for a luxury brand today.

    I think without Fields and Mulally Lincoln would have been dead. Now it has a fighting chance and I believe that Ford has every intention of making Lincoln a major player again, but I don't see it happening right away.

    I've heard hints that the MKR will be built sooner than expected on some existing platform (rather than waiting for an all new RWD joint aussie platform). If that's true then it will be a big step and a chance to see how serious Lincoln is this time around.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Shoot, a well-optioned Chrysler 300 can put any Lincoln to shame.

    Please elaborate.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Well, the SRT8 Hemi engine is definately a step up from the standard 4.6 the Town Car shares with the Crown Vic and Grand Marquis. The 300 is based on the old E-Class platform which is eons newer than the Panther platform on which the Town Car is based.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,620
    Hope you're right, Allen, for the sake of what's left of the North American automobile industry.

    I'll be watching, but not participating.

    Should be interesting.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    I don't think the term "awesome" can be used to describe anything built in 1975.

    the 1990 Lincoln Town Car was Motor Trend's Car of the Year

    Wow, Motor Trend missed the boat on that one, or were they still doing that silly Domestic/Import Car of the Year thing?

    Anyway, I think of Lincoln these days as something of a late-50s Packard: they used to build luxury cars a generation or two ago but now they're well along the glide path to oblivion.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Well, to a ten year-old in 1975, the car looked pretty awesome.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    I dunno; when I was 10 I knew that a 1965 car was better than a 1985 car, and both were vastly better than the abyssal pit that was 1975.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    If you're comparing it to the Panthers (GM, CV, TC) then of course. Anything is light years ahead of those platforms. The 300 would be better compared to the Taurus where the only thing the 300 can claim is HP and a more exciting exterior (note I didn't say better, only that the 300's exterior is not as boring as the Taurus, even though I personally would prefer the Taurus).
  • The 1990 Town Car was way ahead of the curve with its styling. You have to consider what was actually out there in 1990. Cadillacs totally sucked. It remains one of the more attractive of the Town Cars. Considering the era, it was a good vehicle, though you had to wait until 1991 to get the new 4.6 liter (it had the old 5.0).
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    You have to consider what was actually out there in 1990.

    If you limit yourself solely to the Big 3, then yes, the Town Car was the best of a pitiful field.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    What did the imports have in 1990 to compete with the Town Car? I can't think of anything.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    LS400, Q45, Legend, a couple of BMWs and Mercedes, etc.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I don't think those were as large as the TC and I'm certain they weren't in the same price range.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    I put this here only becasue we've discussed the Continental Concept so much. The guy that designed that was the head designer for Lincoln for less than a year I think. Dont know why they canned him, except maybe he was doing designs that just didn't look enough like an Acura or an Oldsmobile?? I dunno. Also heard he's quite the Prima-donna, but I digress.

    Check out his latest concept design at autoweek this week. It's for Land Rover and it's sweet. Best cute ute concept I've seen and it's got LR DNA all over it. THis guy is good. THe major difference between LR and Lincoln is that sounds like LR is going to build this one.
  • Yes, and Land Rover will soon be gone.

    Reminds me of a previous sub-thread here suggesting Ford could just go down to being Ford-Lincoln like Toyota-Lexus (except there is a growing presence of Scion), and VW-Audi. Except VW-Audi also has Lamborghini, Seat, Skoda, Bugatti as well as an incestuous relationship with Porsche. Some of those even sell here, and none of them are simple badge engineerings like Saturn and Opel (though there is nothing wrong with that, snce they sell in different countries.) Ford is paring down out of necessity, but the brands that remain could each find a niche as well. Mercury could rise again, perhaps as Allen envisions it (special niche models) or something else. But it has no point whatsoever as a satin aluminum trim level of Fords.

    Anyway, someone should write a book about how McGovern design almost saved Lincoln...except internal politics decreed it would never be used. There's gotta be a story there.
  • Oh, and I forgot: the VW group sells all these brands here in the US: Audi, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Volkswagen. They have several additional brands in other parts of the world. Their goal (regardless of how realistic) is to grow like Toyota and overtake them. They already dominate in China and Europe. Their US line-up has been too fringe for most Americans, but with a CUV and conventional minivan coming to market, plus a four door coupe (for VW) and a ton of new models coming from Audi, their sales will likely increase here too. Anyway, my long-lost point is that Ford could easily use all the brands it will have remaining after unloading Aston, LR and Jag. Mercury need not stay a laughable, quasi-female, satin aluminumed-lipsticked Ford.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...I remember when Mercury was anything but feminine. In fact, the Big M was once advertised as "Mercury; The Man's Car!" Ultra-cool actor James Dean drove a 1949 Mercury coupe in "Rebel Without a Cause." Macho cop Steve McGarrett drove a 1968 Mercury Park Lane and later a 1974 Mercury Marquis in "Hawaii Five-O." We had hot cars like the Cougar, Cyclone, and Marauder... :shades:

    What happened? :confuse:
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    GD good question. I had a 67 Cyclone convertible 390/4speed - what a set of wheels. Today, $50,000 in good shape. Cougar Eliminator, Pikes peak climb champ, Marauder, (old ones, not the recent pathetic attempt) etc etc. All available "At the sign of the cat."

    Now? "You gotta put Mercury on your list." Dearie.

    WHY? WHY should I look at a Mercury?
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Oh, today's Mercury could still use the "Sign of the Cat" slogan, but instead of a growling cougar, they'd use a mewing house cat.

    "Mercury: The Sign of the Cat!...meow?"
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I think some of you guys are a little to hard on Lincoln - especially the MKS.

    Maybe so. I actually see the MKS for what it is - a bit of a breakthrough in the aspect of being a different car than any Ford on the market (despite the platform, which EVERYBODY does, so it's no matter to me). But the interior, exterior and amenities are unique from anything else Ford offers, and I appreciate that. Still think it should be called Continental, but I guess I've lost that battle and nobody at Ford cares that none of us like the Emm Kay designations. I wish the car were different in some ways, but overall, it's a great "Continental"..... When the Town Car is revamped, hopefully, it will encompass the RWD, size and motor choices we are all clammering for, and HOPEFULLY, they'll still call it a Town Car, not an EmmKayArr.....
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    Ha-ha funny :P

    Maybe Mercury is being kept around as some type of stop-gap, stable-mate if you will, for Lincoln? I really see no other reason for it being around. The vehicles could really be an upgrade jewelry option on the Ford products, or the base trim package for Lincolns.

    I was actually behind a Sable/Montego today. Nothing to right home about. The weird thing about it, and tying into my reason for using "Sable/Montego", is that it seemed the Sable nameplate on the trunk was a sticker. Maybe it was due to being 6:10am and the light from the street-lamp hitting the trunk lid at a funny angle, but I swear it didn't even look like a decent name plate. :confuse:

    Personally, if I was a head-person at Ford or Mercury I would have had some funding placed in the current Mustang's development budget at the time for a Cougar derivative. Yes, the Mustang really doesn't have a coupe profile, being somewhat a fastback, Sportsroof, whichever you prefer, but I feel that should have been done. I would have followed the original formula from '67 ('68? maybe), and offered it with interior and luxury upgrades, two V8s (the standard GTs 300hp version and the 319hp version from the GT-H & Bullit with the underhood goodies, basically putting a little snarl in the cat). I would have offered both trannies as well. And if they wanted to go with the alpha-acronyms instead of calling it Cougar, they could use have used XR7. Another idea would be to split the models and have XR7 for the base and XR7-G (to tie into that Cougar option from the late sixties) or some other initial, having the engine upgrade, suspension tweaks, etc (basically taking the GT-H components, raiding the Ford Motorsports parts bin).

    To get back on track on what Ford could do with Lincoln, if FOMOCO got rid of Mercury they could use this as a Lincoln coupe and call it MK9 (Mark 9), with the goodies as the LSC option. This would actually work since "Mark" used to be what the coupes were called anyway, before being diluted to across-the-board usage and losing its meaning.

    That could have perhaps brought in some foot traffic for Mercury and got the ball rolling. Sorry for the Cougar side track, just something off the top of the dome. ;)
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    "Their goal (regardless of how realistic) is to grow like Toyota and overtake them. "

    Are they (VW) going overpass GM too or it is sufficient for them to be #2 behind GM? Why they are so concerned about Toyota?
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    Right... If you can see into the future, maybe you should get off edmunds and buy some lottery tickets! I'm sure many thought Lexus would never be where it is now, but nevertheless the LS is nipping at the heels of the S-Class and 7-Series. Give Lincoln a decade and we'll see what's up.

    It doesn't take a genius to look at past performance and extrapolate future probabilities.
    Ford simply doesn't have the resources, the engineering or the determination to do what Lexus has done. Even Cadillac will never be on par w/ the Germans.
    the bar just keeps moving.
    Operating in the real lux market isn't just something you all of the sudden do.
    It requires the right image,cachet, commitment to product and service.

    I'm eager to hear what you'd do for Lincoln and Mercury if you were running FoMoCo

    Easy.
    I'd kill Mercury,it is an unnecessary brand.
    I would concentrate Lincoln on doing what they do best.
    Building comfortable luxury sedans. Lexus would be the target in engineering,not the Germans. The near lux segment is where the numbers are. So, the first car(a RWD sedan) would be a competitor of the Lexus ES class.
    Eventually, I would offer a Flagship Continental sedan to compete w/ the big Lexus and Mercedes sedans.
    It has taken Cadillac 10 yrs to get as far as they have, it would take Lincoln just as long, if not longer.
  • jkr2106jkr2106 Member Posts: 248
    It doesn't take a genius to look at past performance and extrapolate future probabilities.
    No it doesn't. It's just that those probabilities of a resurgent Lincoln significantly increase when you consider what's happening over in Dearborn. There is new management. Said management has publically said he doesn't need foreign brands to compete globally. Ashton Martin (a money pit) is gone. Jaguar (a money pit) and LR (slightly profitable maybe? idk) are almost gone. What brand will get all that investment? LINCOLN!!! So, no it doesn't take a genius to look at what has been going on recently and extrapolate future probabilities.

    Ford simply doesn't have the resources, the engineering or the determination to do what Lexus has done. Even Cadillac will never be on par w/ the Germans.
    1. Ford is leveraged to the hilt, they should have the resources to at least get L some descent product. The S/7 fighter won't come right away, but if they can get a strong profitable midsize and entry lineup, I think a larger sedan will follow.
    2. Engineering is engineering. It's not some mystical concept only foreigners have mastered. The problem is money. Give FoMoCo some money and they'll engineer the mess out of the Town Car.
    3. Determination? Really? How do you know? I think they've made some pretty bold moves (pun intended). Doesn't that show determination?

    EDIT:Operating in the real lux market isn't just something you all of the sudden do.
    It requires the right image,cachet, commitment to product and service.

    That was just my point. Lexus has risen from nothing in as many years as I've been alive. It didn't start with cachet, but gained it. It's not a lost cause just because Lincoln doesn't have cachet now. All they need is product to get cachet. All they need is money to get product. All they need is loans to get money...oh wait they've already done that :shades:

    I'd kill Mercury,it is an unnecessary brand.
    Killing Mercury will cost WAY more than rebadging Fords. You mentioned money that FoMoCo doesn't have, well killing Mercury is an easy way to flush the little they do down the toilet.

    The near lux segment is where the numbers are. So, the first car(a RWD sedan) would be a competitor of the Lexus ES class.
    Chasing numbers is what put FoMoCo in the position they are in. Chase profit.
    What RWD sedan competes with the Lexus ES now? If someone is in the market for an ES, they care nothing about driving excitement, and the decreased FE of RWD will not win over those who only want an appliance.

    Eventually, I would offer a Flagship Continental sedan to compete w/ the big Lexus and Mercedes sedans.
    agreed; I think I'd call it Town Car, though...

    It has taken Cadillac 10 yrs to get as far as they have, it would take Lincoln just as long, if not longer.
    agreed
  • Aston Martin was not a money pit. They are doing quite well. However, it is a boutique brand, adding little to the bottom line while at Ford ,even while requiring significant engineering and design resources that could be better focused on things like Lincoln. The Aston sale was almost as valuable as the combined sale of Jaguar (the true money pit and Ford's fault for making it so) and Land Rover.
  • jkr2106jkr2106 Member Posts: 248
    In August 2006 Ford announced Aston Martin for sale. Aston Martin posted profit for the first time in 2005. That was over a decade after FoMoCo bought them (1994). Previously, all PAG profitability had been grouped together, but for the sale, PAG mentioned that Aston did indeed turn a profit the year prior. So for eleven years money was being wasted that could have been going into Lincoln.

    You are right, though that Ford turned them around and now things are going "quite well". I think that Ford had the ingenuity and perseverance to turn AM around makes me a bit more hopeful of their ability to do the same for Lincoln.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    In-car computer system will be offered on all Ford, Mercury, Lincoln vehicles by year's end.

    Bryce G. Hoffman / The Detroit News
    Ford Motor Co. and Microsoft Corp. unveiled new features for Sync, their in-car computer connectivity system, at the International Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas on Sunday, including a new 911 feature designed to challenge General Motors Corp.'s OnStar system.

    Ford also announced that it will make Sync available on nearly all Ford, Mercury and Lincoln cars and trucks by the end of 2008.

    The new emergency calling feature, dubbed 911 Assist, will automatically connect motorists with properly paired cell phones to the nearest 911 dispatch center if their vehicle's air bags are deployed in a crash.

    Drivers have 10 seconds to cancel the call.

    "The call is direct to 911, as opposed to an intermediate call center, which is the case with some of our competitors," Derrick Kuzak, Ford's global product development chief, said in an interview ahead of the electronics show. "It's also free."

    GM's OnStar system requires users to pay a monthly fee and connects motorists to an OnStar operator in the event of a crash. Those operators are able to connect motorists to 911 and identify their location via OnStar's own global positioning system.

    With Sync's 911 Assist, if no one in the car can speak, emergency dispatchers will still be able to find the vehicle using signal triangulation or the cell phone's global positioning satellite chip, if it is equipped with one.

    Ford is unveiling other new vehicle technologies at the electronics show, including a next-generation navigation system that will tell drivers what gasoline costs at nearby stations and provide real-time traffic information, as well as a new collaboration with Sony Corp. that will put Sony-branded audio systems in all Ford and Mercury vehicles.

    Ford has already sold more than 30,000 Sync-equipped vehicles and is on track to sell a million by early 2009.

    "I really like it," said Sync user and auto analyst Erich Merkle of IRN Inc. in Grand Rapids. "I'm always in the car, and the ability to talk to somebody hands-free is really helpful to me," he said. "I can't help but think Sync is going to give Ford some advantage, but Sync by itself is not going to convince people to buy a Ford."

    Sync, which was introduced last fall on select vehicles, allows motorists to connect their cell phones, iPods and other music players directly to their automobiles and control those devices entirely with voice commands or steering wheel buttons.

    Upgrading it is essential to its continued success and, because it's software-based, current customers can add new features by visiting their dealer. There is no charge for the upgrades.

    "Consumers have come to expect cutting-edge technology in their homes and offices," Kuzak said. "This is ensuring they can have that same infotainment capability in their vehicles."

    Kuzak said more improvements are on the way.

    "Customers expect their technology to improve with a six-months-to-yearly cadence," he said.

    "You can expect these sorts of regular upgrades in Sync functionality, too."

    Ford and Microsoft have also developed a new vehicle diagnostic system that will allow owners of Sync-equipped vehicles to request a "vehicle health report" at any time for no cost from Ford.

    Like other Sync features, the system is activated with a voice command that instructs the car to upload the data from all of its onboard sensors to Ford via the customer's paired mobile phone.

    That data will then be reviewed by Ford technicians, who also have access to the vehicle's maintenance history.

    They prepare a report on the car or truck, identifying any maintenance that may be required.

    These reports can be accessed online or mailed or e-mailed to the customer.

    Velle Kolde, head of Microsoft's automotive business unit, said Sync has exceeded all expectations at both companies.

    "Initial customer satisfaction is really high," he said, noting that more than 80 percent of Sync owners say they would recommend the system to a friend.

    Ford's new navigation system is being offered through its alliance with Sirius Satellite Radio Inc.

    As part of their subscription service, Sirius customers will be able to see gasoline prices at nearby stations, check movie times at theaters and get real-time traffic and weather updates through Sirius Travel Link.

    Sirius Travel Link will be standard with Ford's new navigation system next year.

    http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080107/AUTO01/801070364/1148-

    -Rocky
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    Yep, Rocky IS back.

    Wouldn't it be better to just give us a summary and post the link to the full story?

    That said, I have a question - how is the sync system going to flip open my cell phone to make the call?

    And if an ambulance arrives on the scene, but no one is hurt, who will pay for the cost of the emergency services?

    Oh and lastly, Sync may be about to be upstaged in the same way Garmin and tom-tom etc are taking a lot of business away from factory-installed WAY OVERPRICED navigation systems:

    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/news-blog/pioneer-fights-back-unleashes-afterma- rket-sync-to-go/

    Just an editorial comment - personally I would not want Bill Gates and microsoft anywhere NEAR my car's electronics.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Why would it need to "flip open" your cellphone to make a call? Sync uses bluetooth for hands free calling - you don't even have to take it out of your pocket.

    It waits 10 seconds to call to give you time to cancel the call if you don't need 911. Even if it did call, you just say "I don't need any help." It's just a hands free phone call, not magic.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Good Point !!! ;)

    -Rocky
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    Both good points, akirby.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    They have already taking Lincoln to St. Thomas, ON without adding an assembly line because the Grand Marquis is going Bye Bye and it's assembly facility will be taken over by Town Car. (Personal Speculation and not fact) :shades:
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    You need a new crystal ball.

    The Grand Marquis outsells the Sable 5 to 1

    I t ain't going away. Unless everyone at Ford is stupid. Even I dont believe that.
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