Where Is Ford taking the Lincoln Motor Company?

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  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The Grand Marquis, Town Car and Crown Vic will continue to be made until new RWD replacements arrive. The CV is now fleet only but the GM and TC survive at retail. There was extra capacity in STAP and it didn't make sense to keep the TC in Wixom by itself.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    There's no thread titled "Ford's lawyers do it again" so I'll post this here.

    Saw this linked from a camera web site I frequent:

    http://culturegarage.com/2008/01/11/ford-sometimes-i-think-you-want-to-fail/

    Gist is that a Mustang owner's club took photos of their beloved Mustangs and contracted to have a calendar made from the photos. I don't know the details, but Ford found out about this and threatened to sue because, Ford's lawyers claim, "Ford owns the rights to any photographs you take of your Ford product." So the printer refused to make the calendars for the owner's club, afraid Ford would sue them. No word as to whether these Mustang owners are now ordering Camaros and Challengers.

    If this is true, it's the craziest thing I've heard of.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    That doesn't make sense. How can Ford claim ownership of PHOTOS taken of people's cars? If so, photos of Fords in virtually every magazine would be subject to this action.

    A more likely scenario is that the calendar is using the Ford logo or Mustang logo without Ford's permission, and that is why the company is suing.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    It appears the issue is that they are selling it through cafepress. Had they simply printed the calendars and sold them internally to club members it wouldn't be a problem. I belong to a Ford car club that's done that for several years with no problems. All they had to do was keep it within the club.

    Looking at it from Ford's viewpoint - here is a company selling a mustang calendar to the public and presumably making money on it. What's to stop them or someone else from taking a bunch of pictures of mustangs, putting it on a calendar and selling it? If they allow this one then more will follow.
  • Another example of too many attorneys without enough worthwhile stuff to do.
  • What's to stop them or someone else from taking a bunch of pictures of mustangs, putting it on a calendar and selling it? If they allow this one then more will follow.

    OMG! What IS the world coming to? Wow. Someone maybe making a few bucks selling photos of cars, photos that are available anywhere for free. Yup. Sure gotta stop that before it spreads, any good will loss be damned.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I didn't say I agreed with it. Sounds really nit-picky to me. But when you pay lawyers to be lawyers what do you expect?
  • You are right. And re-reading my post, if I had gotten one like it from someone else, I'd be inclined to say "meow." Sorry about that.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    We'll sell you all the photos you want.

    Inside Line Photo Store

    Make your own durn calendar. :D

    No Lincolns yet though - how about some GT action?

    image
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    More info:

    "[cafepress said] a law firm representing Ford contacted them saying that our (BMC) calendar pics (and our club's event logos - anything with one of our cars in it) infringes on Ford's trademarks which include the use of images of THEIR vehicles. Also, Ford claims that all the images, logos and designs OUR graphics team made for the BMC events using Danni are theirs as well. "

    Almost hate to go futher with this, but there are such a slew of teed off Mustang owvers and lots of comments on the blog sites that are linking to this like "I was thinking about buying a Ford but now, no way." etc. THis is just the height of stupidity, even for a lawyer. Even for a lawyer from Ford (who are probably pretty tired of losing lawsuits so they need to win one and relish in pushing some people around.)

    Apparently this is not unprecedented. SOme posters say VW did this as well a few years ago to a VW owners club. The guy that posted said he's now in his second Toyota since then. Good for him. :P

    This is another example of the assinine way these lawyers treat us all like nitwits subject to their whims. Look at your key fob. Wouldn't it make sense for the fob to ope ALL the doors on the car? Does to me, but NOOOOOO Ford's lawyers wont let you do that. Neither will they let you do many of the functions on the Nav unit if the car is moving. Hey, maybe next, you'll have to tune the radio in your Ford before you leave the red light.

    KILL ALL the lawyers. Start with the ones that are also politicians.
  • you go, heyjoe
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Companies have to protect their trademarks or lose them. (link) That includes third party uses.

    Anyone got any Lincoln news?
  • fomoconafomocona Member Posts: 19
    I realize this is not a Lincoln topic but I wanted to give an update on the BMC calendar situation. I monitor several webpages on behalf of Ford. The calendar issue was a misunderstanding and it has been resolved. Ford does not intend to alienate any enthusiasts clubs and that's why we moved quickly to clear the air. For details on the entire situation please see the Black Mustang Club. We appreciate our loyal customers and automotive enthusiasts such as the Black Mustang Club members.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    "What we do have an issue with are individuals using Ford’s logo and other trademarks for products they intend to sell"

    I'm glad that this issue has been resolved. Seems that cafe press was the instigator, based on their prior dealings with Ford and others. The above quote is from the Ford rep describing what they would take issue with. Not being a lawyer, I'm not sure how selling a calendar with pictures of Ford products, which have Ford trademarks on em (the 'Running Pony' eg), does not fit this scenario, but I'm happy that Ford is out there trying to at least set the record straight.

    Now, if fomocona could get involved with the person who has a new Navigator with brakes that fail every so often and is told by dealer and corporate that that is 'normal' I'd be really impressed. Then, maybe look into my HVAC that doesn't work right, then ... well, it's job security anyway! :)
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    vaguely knowledgeable about trademark law, so I make my comments knwoing that I may be off base...add in a little "Let's kill all the lawyers" hostility and it should make for a good stew...

    Ford naturally owns the rights to its trademarks, like the Ford Oval and the Mustang symbol...if someone is selling a product that shows a Ford trademark in a bad light, then Ford's reputation may be damaged and they have the right to protect it...(the problem is, with auto products, Big 3 should be more worried about the actual quality fo the product, which, IMO, has already damaged their reputation...i.e.Quality ain't Job One)...

    Then again, my problem (which may be my lack of knowledge of the finer points of trademark law) is that if 12 guys/girls (let's not be sexist, here) want to take pictures of THEIR automobiles that are Fords, and sell the calendar, why not???...one could argue that by buying the car, they certainly have purchased the license rights to take photos of THEIR car, simply by buying the car...

    Legally, all they may have to do is request, in writing, permission from Ford to do so, but I think that is redundant...or, matbe, they can photograph the car at various angles which shows what the car obviously is, yet not show the Blue Oval or the Running Horse...

    But, consodering that this was a club of car FANS, not folks trying to show Mustangs in a bad light, Ford's lawyers may have brought more bad publicity to Ford than any "bad light" photo ever could...the calendar will never make national news, but the lawyer story certainly did...and if it turns off enough possible buyers, this is a stupid move for Ford...

    Please be nice to the lawyers...don't get to close and don't feed them, but they sometimes take the law too seriously, and someone needs to shake them out of their stupor...or, as I like to paraphrase, "Ignorance of the lawyers is no excuse"...:):):)
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The problem was with Cafe Press, not the BMC club or the calendar itself. The issue has been resolved and the calendar is for sale (somewhere other than cafepress).
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    But, being the lawyer that I am, I am wondering just what WAS the actual resolution...

    BTW, back in the 80s, I believe, there was a guy named Chrysler who opened a bar somehere in either Mich, Wisc, Minn, one of those cold states up there...he called it the Chrysler Bar, after himself...

    Big lawsuit from Chrysler Corp and he changed the name...but I have wondered, how could Chrysler, who makes cars, really be confused with the Chrysler Bar, which sells liquor???

    In the early 90s, Lexus, the car, sued Lexis, the data organization (as in Lexis-Nexis), saying that people could confuse the names and give them a bad rep...

    Fortunately, a court threw it out, saying that the spelling was different and that a company that makes cars would never be confused with a data company like Lexis (legal research)...

    Once in awhile, courts do something right...it just takes some time...
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The resolution was they aren't selling it through cafepress anymore.

    I wish the courts would get it right a little more often, especially in product liability cases. When someone is drinking and driving, not wearing a seatbelt and runs off the road and crashes and gets ejected and killed they should not be able to sue Ford because they didn't make the side windows from safety glass so the person would not have been ejected.

    I say if the vehicle meets federal safety standards the mfr can't be held liable for accidents unless fraud or deception is involved.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    that enables us to sue the saddle maker for injuries from being bucked off the horse? :sick:
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Depends on whether the cinch failed eh?

    Any idea where Ford is taking Lincoln?
  • douglasrdouglasr Member Posts: 191
    The kelvinator white Mark S on the show stand at the Washington DC Auto Show attracted much attention of the public which I saw. The arctic white paint did not show the best of this revamped design. Mr. Horbury has done a fine job touching up the original design to make it more palatable. The marketing people sadly painted the car in the starkest shade of white with not even a hint of colour. The interior matched the exterior. I felt compassion for Mr. Horbury that his work was debased by the color. It did nothing for the car. Which is a perverse way caused many bystanders to come an look at it. "That's White" a man said. "Looks like an appliance to me" another person chimed in. "No stripes" another said.

    At Chicago the first of these cars is being run down the pilot production lines to ensure that a lot of hard work is coming together with successful results. After comparing the Mark S to a lot of other cars, Cadillac, Buick, BMW, Lexus, and Mercedes the S stood in stark contrast to all those cars, quality will HAVE to be far superior to all of them. Lincoln is fifth, at the bottom in the sweepstakes for customer purchases in the luxury market for automobiles. Mercedes sold 253,400 cars last year in America. Cadillac 214,726 cars and BMW edged them out with 293,795 buyers. Lincoln will tally something less than 140,000 buyers, trucks included. Mercury is but a shadow in the mind of the public. Volvo just posted a $2.5Bn write-down, and Ford Motor can say "Tata" to Jaguar, leaving Lincoln the last man standing at Ford Motor in the higher echelons of the market.

    The Mark T is not an automobile, so the fate of cars at Lincoln hinges on the S. Thus all the chips are on S. 2,000 plus robots will weld together the bodyshells for these cars, and the shutlines substantially improved over the competition. The interior is going to have to stand-out to catch all those Lexus buyers. And one wonders when Ford Motor is offering to buy-out all of its remaining UAW workers, just how the production staff at Chicago will feel while they try to make the latest from Lincoln the best they can make. Quality assembly will fall to a lower tier of workers on the pay-scale, so will they care at all whether part A fits onto Part B perfect or not, another is coming down the line at fourteen cars per hour. So it will be up to the engineers and production people to make the origame of auto assembly come out within acceptable parameters. And those parameters fall within the dimensions of two matchbooks covers sandwiched togther: about .034". Check the shutlines on a Honda, BMW, or Mercedes-Benz in the parking lot at the grocery store next time you go out to buy coffee. Is there an American car that can match that in your estimation?? Cadillac is getting there, but what of Lincoln?

    Checking out the Mark Z, and all the Ford Motor products on the Show stand in Washington, I could not help but compare them to the competition. Ford is getting closer, but with Mark S OK will not be enough. Like GM's new Malibu, the quality is going to have to be far beyound expectations. That's the wall that Lincoln is going to have to beat. The "tink" of the doorshell slamming against the bodyshell is going to have to have the right "feel", that sound that tells you the coins are not going to cascade out of your wallet after forty thousand miles when the parts might start dislodging themselves from their positions.

    If Mr. Kuzak and Mr. Horbury can dial in the quality, then the Mark S, irrespective of what it looks like on the outside, will keep buyers behind the wheel at Lincoln. The Mark S could become the Mark of Salvation, catching 50,000 buyers they had lost since 2001. If that sound of solidity is not there when the doors slam at the dealers, the Mark S could become the Mark of Sadness, like the appliance door slamming shut on the basement refrigerator, Lincoln delivered to the deep freeze of automotive history.

    DouglasR

    (Sources: DC Auto Show; FT; WSJ; Automotive News)
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    DouglasR: First, welcome back. Your insights have been missed around here. Your story here that the quality of the mks is paramount to Ford's success do not fall on deaf ears here. I hope the same is true in Dearborn. I too saw the news story that Ford is getting rid of still more American employees. Some large number of white collars to disappear due to 'attrition' and layoffs. Number to be determined later. Meanwhile Ford has offered buyouts to 93% of it's blue collar workers in USA. WOW. 93% !!?? They want to replace them with cheaper, younger workers. Where will they get them? Will Ford be checking immigration papers or will they leave that to the UAW which suports illegal immigration for some strange but maybe beginning to be understandable reason? So all these workers who've been with Ford for 5, 10, 20, 30 years now - GTF OUT is Ford's position? And the great UAW, bulwark of the working man and destroyer of American competitiveness says 'as long as another [non-permissible content removed] comes in to pay the dues we dont care' I guess is their position? Of course, there's always thos factories in Mexico and Brazil to take up any slack if Ford goes the way of the food growers and says "We just cant find any Americans willing to do the job." (With the unspoken truth being "for the money we're willing to pay them.") And Dodge has announced their next small car will be Chinese. To he!! wil Lincoln, it's the USA I'm worried about.

    Ah, America, we hardly knew ye.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    the nail on the head...the union, from the days in the 40s when it was necessary to the present..."the great UAW, bulwark of the working man and destroyer of American competitiveness"

    Way back when, the union was needed...but they grew too big and too powerful, until they were met by a superior force...the competitiveness of the imports...

    As long as Toy/Hon exist, the UAW will stay a shadow of its former self...
  • The Mark T is not an automobile?? I think we all need to get a grip here. Now, I am willing to accept that an F150 is not an automobile. and a Mark LT is not an automobile (though they are both often used as anything but trucks) ...and maybe even a Navigator is not an automobile.

    But lots of vehicles classified as trucks are taking advantage of politically written federal legislation to define a truck in a certain way in order to get around the more strict mpg standards required for cars. A Subaru Forester is a truck? A Subaru Outback is a truck? A PT Cruiser is a truck??? I think not, except by some weird fed regulation.

    Cars used to practically all be body on frame, and many had the solid axles like real trucks. Many used to be quite tall. But none of them were called "trucks." CUVs and many luxury SUVs look and act like cars, and are used like cars. The MKT concept has nothing truck-like about it. It's controversial styling may not be your cup of tea, but all those styling elements and cliches it uses (like the bustle back) are car-like, not truck like.

    I think it is high time we recognize that the truck market is not nearly as large as reported, because lots of people are buying vehicles that transport passengers and lack any sort of recognizable bed for hauling. Let the EPA classify the MKX as a truck if that is the way the law is written. But we don't have to pretend the same thing as well.
  • douglasrdouglasr Member Posts: 191
    Mark T is not a car, by my definition, as it has no "trunk". The whole body uses a hatchback style. Whether or not it is unibody or frame makes little difference, the design package is not that of a traditional car. Lincoln is trying to redefine what they think luxury means, and as such characterized Mark T as "A Lear Jet on wheels..." Whether this truck/suv/cuv will ever come in for a landing remains to be seen, it is months away from production. By my estimation it is a station-wagon by any other name, being that the storage area behind the rear seats is fully enclosed much like the old woody wagons of a half century ago. It is somewhat sad to think that the manufacturers don't dare use the term "station wagon" much less "aero-wagon" to impart driving to the air-port terminal much less the train station. Nor would they consider the evident true destination of many of these vehicles denoted as the "ikea-depot-WF*-wagon" an iteration for drivers going to Home Depot, Ikea, and Whole Foods. So we have the locution of "cross-over" which in my estimation is worse, because few drivers are "crossing over" much of anything other than intersections, and "cross-over" also sounds like a Bravo Channel reality show for a sex change. CUV worse again for it means to me: commonly underutilitized vehicle. I see too many SUV's much less trucks being driven by one person. But that is another issue altogether which I am sure would cause more comments than whether Lincoln will survive at all, much less Ford Motor.

    Yet Lincoln is at least getting product for the first time in a decade. While the clock is ticking at Ford Motor, Lincoln has to lead the way now that Jaguar-Land-Rover, and the remains of the PAG group are placed in the masoleum of corporate speak at Ford much like the Mercury-Edsel-Lincoln Division. Packaging corporate fiefdoms in neat little groups is not an answer that will work for Ford. Telling the world that Lincoln will not be a global brand when the emphasis is making a Ford a global brand and corporation is not the answer either. Cadillac is brave enough to come back and go head to head against the competition, including retailing cars outside America. Lincoln must rebuild the brand at home, but they must not be disinclined to compete worldwide. Just ask Max Hoffman when he began importing Mercedes into America less than four years after Hitler shot himself in his Berlin Bunker. If Mercedes can succeed from the ashes of 1945, when 80% of their factories were destroyed at Sindelfingen and Unterturkheim by the RAF and the Army Air Corps, delivering their first post-war (#136-010-00-384) car to Dr. Ernst Schlapper who slid behind the wheel of his less than shiny 170V on June 12, 1947, when Lincoln was still offering V12 automobiles then Lincoln can succeed again. No one ever bombed the Lincoln factory, the only incendiaries came from within the Ford Motor organization to kill the product before it ever got to the production line. So if Benz, much less Lexus can beat Lincoln on the home turf, then it is incumbant on Ford not only to rebuild the brand, but to take the cylinders stroke for stroke to the doorstep of the competition.

    Will Ford do that? Station Wagon, err "Depot-Wagon" or no? Will they have the nerve to put Lincoln back together again after having failed so grandly with Jaguar? Or will Lincoln continue to drive like a scalded cat afraid to put verve and dash back into their products to the degree that people will want to maintain and later restore them long after the newness has worn off? Even if they called them 'DUV's at the end of the day, as Lincoln goes....so goes the Blue Oval.

    DouglasR

    *WF, stands for "Whole Foods" denoting the local upmarket grocery chain here, which we also call "Whole-Wallet", so perhaps the Mark T can be called a 'WUV'!

    (Sources: 'Mercedes-Benz Classic' March 2007; WSJ)
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Since when are station wagons and hatchbacks not considered cars? That's just silly. There are other words to describe the type of car - hatchback, coupe, sedan, wagon - that tell you whether it has a closed trunk or not.

    And if you can't see that there is significant change and a sense of direction happening at Lincoln then you're not paying attention. Remember, you have to walk before you can run and you have to get back to merely good before you can be great. Patience.
  • Agreed. I always thought station wagons were cars. They certainly are not trucks.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    We sure are arguing over esoteric semantics here, eh?

    I remember as a teenager when I was driving around in a '67 Mercury Comet Cyclone convertible with a 390 and a 4 speed and a friend had an El Camino. We all know what an El Camino is right? Well, the friend and I argued a lot over whether the El Camino was a car or a pickup truck. And it was so important that I cant even remember what my position was!?

    We could sorta leave it to Lincoln to degine it for us - using their names ought to work, right? TO wit:

    MK S = Sedan
    MK Z = Zephyr
    Mark LT = Light Truck

    therefore,

    MK T = Truck. Or ... Town. Or ... Train

    whatever. It dont matter as long as it's competitive in it's segment. Whatever the segment is.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    That is where you are wrong...if the vehicle does not have the proper designation, I will NEVER sleep soundly, and I get really grumpy if I suffer from insomnia...what am I gonna do, what am I gonna do????????????????????........... :P ;) :P
  • Taking a dump sometimes helps. :P
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    With the Jag/LF deal seemingly going to Tata, and with PAG pretty much gone, does anyone here have any thought of what FOMOCO may do with the cash infusion. I mean it has been discussed before, but things have changed recently:

    -Again, the Tata $$ for Jag/LR
    -Parent Ford offering buyouts
    -Totoyta squeaking over (under) GM in sales / production, depending on who's
    stating what
    -Lincoln's future, as well as Ford and the "Big M", being murky at best. I mean,
    you have to have more than Mustangs with glass roofs, limited-production Bullitts
    and the stalwart F-150 in your ranks to be a winner
    -CAFE 35mpg ruling

    My thoughts are that Ford is going to try to use the cash infusion to prop itself up, then float some capital on to Lincoln. Don't really know what to say about Merc, as they are gussied-up Fords really and will remain that way for some time as I see it.

    Will Lincoln's fleet be lux-crossover utility; will it have a large RWD car to compete, or make do with the Taurus/Sable derivative; a possible coupe (couldn't name it an MKX as that's taken) or a full-line provider? :confuse:
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    Don't they owe about 23 billion dollars???

    Wouldn't it be prudent to pay down some of that balance???
  • jkr2106jkr2106 Member Posts: 248
    With the Jag/LF deal seemingly going to Tata, and with PAG pretty much gone, does anyone here have any thought of what FOMOCO may do with the cash infusion.
    I agree with you that FoMoCo will (and should) prop the Ford brand up first. I say they should because I feel Lincoln has hit rock bottom; its product lineup couldn't get much worse, so its best to salvage what can be saved over at Ford, because they really have a lot of good product. Better product there will lead to more profit to fund the rest of the turnaround as well as bring consumer awareness to the blue oval and its other brands.

    With Volvo BACK on the auction block, my hope for Lincoln is that they become a full-line provider akin to Mercedes-Benz. I'm uncertain about Merc, but I'd suggest they continue to be tarted-up Fords because its profitable. I would suggest, however, doing more than just adding chrome; I'd make a milan and mountaineer to rival the ES and RX from Lexus, bringing volume and foot traffic to L-M dealers.
  • douglasrdouglasr Member Posts: 191
    Lincoln sold 131,487 cars and suv/cuv/trucks for 2007. In Lincoln's best year: "...however, 1998 registrations showed Lincoln with 189,191 and Cadillac 179,009, a 7,182 margin in Lincoln's favor. This descrepancy between sales and registrations led many in the media to question who the real luxury leader was in 1998." Ford Motor Company announced May 5 of that year as Lincoln took the sales crown from Cadillac for the first time. Better days weren't ahead, no one thought that failure and misfortune were on the horizon.

    In 2007 BMW took the sales crown in America with 335,840 vehicles sold, 293,795 were BMW Brand. Lexus sold 329,177 vehicles, 200,334 of which were cars. Worldwide Lexus sold 35,226 LS460/460h & 600h sedans. BMW sold 44,421 7 Series sedans. Mercedes delivered 253,400 vehicles in America, and took orders for 85,400 S Class worldwide. Cadillac captured 214,726 sales leading with their V Series chassis. BMW now sells in America as many vehicles that they used to sell worldwide in 1985, and almost outpaced even Cadillac's best sales years from two decades ago. In order for Lincoln to top its best year, 50,000 new buyers must consider Mark S, and other impending products from Lincoln as the Mark T, and Mark R. The first of the Canadian built Town-Car's from St. Thomas rolled off the new assembly line January 10, cementing Lincoln as a "global" player with cars being built in three countries. In order for Lincoln to beat the competition, it must at least sell 250,000 vehicles...bettering Cadillac and pushing BMW, Mercedes and Lexus. One in five new luxury buyers will have to consider and drive away with Lincoln in order to win the game.

    Chrysler has handed Lincoln one sobriquet in that they have not the nerve to build the Imperial, Mr. Nardelli's team being narrow minded with respect to its 300 platform, and where it could take them. So Lincoln will not lose 40% of its potential customers to a nascent competitor. However, Chrysler has pointed the way as to what might happen once Town Car is discontinued at St. Thomas if sales should prove disappointing. "The whole robotic production line, hundreds of high-tech machines has been bough lock stock and barrell from Chrysler in the U.S." the BBC staffwriter Rupert Winnfield wrote of his inspection of the new Chrysler Sebring line being relocated in Nizhy Novgorod north of Stalingrad on the banks of the Volga River at Volga Automotive Works. Lincoln Town Car could go the way of Packard's senior cars in 1942, rumored being sold to ZIS, and later their 1956 tooling re-appearing as a Tchaika. A rolling palace fit for Putin could find its way to Minsk, or a new factory south of Moscow. Yet for several years, 25-30,000 buyers will still pony up the bucks for the traditional RWD Town Car. That still leaves a yawning gap in the market before Lincoln can ever call itself NUMBER 1 in any sense of the word.

    SUV/CUV sales are up 62% at Lincoln owing to the Mark X. Ford Motor sold 2,572,599 cars and trucks in America last year for '07. Cars accounted for 839,764 of those sales, the remainder from vehicles like Mark X. While those vehicles accounted for the majority share at Ford Motor, and the changing nature of the market-place with 1.7Mn such vehicles sold under the Blue Oval, one wonders how long Lincoln can sustain itself reconfigured as a "suv/cuv/truck" manufacturer when it competitors accrue so many sales to cars? Cadillac has rejoined the fray and not afraid to compete head on against "Grosser-Mercedes", "M" Type BMW's, and soon to challenge 460H/600H from Lexus with a Cadillac version of the Volt. So the arguement that the market has changed so much that cars don't matter isn't borne out by the numbers sold collectively by the competition: they got there because they built a better engineered and bolted together product, the style was a secondary consideration. There-in lies the answer for Lincoln, one that they can attain with existing and impending products.

    The first of the GT500KR Shelby Mustangs rolled off the assembly line on Carol Shelby's 85th birthday this last January 11 from the "assembly plant" outside of Los-Angeles. In Shelby's own words we find the answer and solution for Lincoln: "I worked with the SVT guys for several years now and I know they have the guts, the talent, and the passion to deliver the best performance Mustang's ever..." Following those remarks VP-Production for Shelby-Ford Andy Davis commented: "We aren't fixing our attention to one or two attributes, but working on the vehicle as a whole. The throttle response, power delivery, exhaust note, and the handling all work together to deliver the greatest driving experience." Thus it should be that an SVT type program for Lincoln platforms must happen. If that kind of enthusiasm could easily be tapped for Shelby, and who could blame them for not wanting to achieve and surpass the best of them, then so the same example could be applied to Lincoln. The 'Road-Race-Road-Map" is sitting in the real steel of the competition: all they have to do is flog-em and find out their weaknesses and improve upon them. O'L Shel' might even want to drive a Lincoln as such, a four-door version of his two-door fame! Ford is saying "Tata" to Jaguar, so why not replace it with a red-blooded American version called a Lincoln?

    It will take a lot of nerve and verve at Ford Motor to do that. Get Mr. Kuzak, Ford's man for Global Manufacturing behind the wheel, and his opposite number Mr. Fowler, the man in charge of QC. If Ford is willing to build a pre-production quality center at The Rouge for the 2009 F-150 truck, then why not do the same for Mark S? For every vehicle sold in America, Ford has a square foot of factory space on Torrence Avenue in Chicago to build the Mark S. 14 Awards from J.D.Powers say that Ford can set a new marque for Mark S in the QC department. The Mark S will only be as good as the parts supplied and the quality dialed in by the engineers for the 2,311 line workers, and the 137 salaried staff to bolt together. It doesn't help that BMW made a profit of $65,000 per employee for 2007 on their revenues of $82.8Bn at a time when Ford Motor is offering nearly the same amount of money for UAW-Buy-outs. Ford Motor narrowed its losses to $406 per vehicle last year. It will make it that much harder for the remaining line-workers to hold the morale while they torx together Mark S.

    Yet Ford of Europe set a record selling 1,833,600 vehicles last year, improving its position 5.4%, so all is not doomsaying within the Blue Oval. So the pieces exist and the motivated people still toil away far from the Glass House to improve the fortunes of the firm that Henry built, and for Lincoln that together with Edsel, they bought. Now is the time to prove the mettle of the men at the Glass House. Mark S can be their Salvation or Siberia, Mark S will tell.

    DouglasR
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    Great message as usual, DR. Couple things - your first paragraph is missing a sales figure or something to close the logic. And a real nit in the second para, but based on a recent discussion. You say "Lincoln is a global player since they build cars in 3 countries." Technically at this time, that is not true. Lincoln builds cars only in Canada (TownCar) and Mexico (mickey-Z). They dont build any cars in USA at this time.
  • douglasrdouglasr Member Posts: 191
    ....Correct. I brought up Lincoln's finest hour in 1998 as a counter-pose to where Lincoln is today. Failure was not an option for the Lincoln team in 1998--it was not even on the horizon. That was when Ford Motor held 27.5% of the market and the question then was: "When will Ford overtake GM". Ford had the means and the methods then to attain that goal. Contrasted to where Lincoln's competitors have gone since then, shows how far Ford Motor and Lincoln have to travel to regain a Number 1 ranking.

    As for Lincoln automobiles being made only in Mexico and Canada, also technically correct. But pilot production is going on at Chicago, as the tooling systems are being tested for the Mark S run. JOB 1 has not yet rolled off the line, but Lincoln production is being established in Chicago. Owing to the fact that many people consider the Mark X as much a "car" as an CUV or SUV, Lincoln vehicles are being made in America, though I don't count the LT as a car by any accounting. The other half of Salvation & Siberia is as follows:

    If they build it right, pour in the quality of the kind the eye never sees but the road does,then Mark S might well be their salvation. If they torque in towering performance that Ford is so well proven at, the Shelby Supercharged 5.4Litre V8 a perfect example of what is sitting on the shelf: 450Bhp@8.6psi, then the buyers are there for the asking. XJ garnered the top of the J.D.Powers survey and Ford brand as well among many competitors proves they can manage to bolt together a better product. If they don't, Mark S may find itself removed to Siberia, which is what the S will stand for because that is also where the market will put Lincoln: in the deep freeze of the history books.

    Another 50,000 buyers are within the reach of Mark S, T, Z, Town Car, and R. Will Mr. Mulally have the nerve to be convinced if only his team will suggest it? SVT could just as well stand for Mark S, V, T. Being Number 1 has many facets and meanings, Rolls-Royce is Number 1 selling only 1,010 cars at the pinnacle of the market, so Lincoln has plenty of clearance to attain it, even without selling more cars than say Cadillac: public perception and assessment being as much of the battle as anything. Look how far BMW has come from the days when they made "Isetta's", and began with the "Dixie" before it. No one ever bombed the Lincoln plant as the American Army Air Corps and RAF had done to Daimler-Benz between 1943-1945. Beginning from the rubble of post-war Occuppied Germany, look where Mercedes and BMW are today. The only "bombs" exploding within Lincoln came from within: cancelling chassis here and there, and cutting off cash for capital improvements. If Lincoln can survive the eviscerating corporate politics, and find a champion, then Lincoln can outpace anything ever achieved by its competitors. Both power and style can be revived at Lincoln coupled with quality that would put even an F150 to shame, much less a Lexus. Now is the time to prove the mettle of the men at the Glass House....

    ...and I would add that VWAG took $1.5Bn to redevelop and revive Bentley in the decade of their ownership since 1998. Their record sales in 2007 of 10,014 cars and revenues outside of the U.K. of L745Mn or $1.450Bn demonstrates what is possible even against seemingly impossible odds. Bentley sold 414 cars in 1998, now there is a two year waiting list for top-line models. When was there a waiting list for a Lincoln? (1956!) Look at GM's 2.6% increase in sales for January, with Cadillac CTS sales up 95% for the month to 5,600 plus cars shows what can be done, in a tough market. The "Mark V" should stand for "Victory" if they deign to do it. If VWAG can succeed in the luxury market, so can Ford Motor Company at Lincoln. Though it might seem remote that Ford can regain the momentum,much less catch GM or even Toyota, nothing is impossible. They can win with Mark S where they failed with "S-Type" at Jaguar---among others. But it Mark S fails to excite, catch fire, and entice buyers back to the fold, then where will Ford Motor Company and Lincoln Motor find themselves?

    DouglasR

    (Sources: Automotive News; BBC World News; Ford Motor Company; Bentley Motors Ltd; VWAG)
  • A couple of flies in the ointment....

    The MKS looks to be a good car, but it is not a CTS or STS. It is the best Lincoln in years, but it is also a heavy FWD car with long overhangs, and is first being issued with just adequate power. It should sell, but it won't give Lincoln anything more than an alternative to the Town Car (plush, comfortable, but hardly world class). The MKR is the car that could do it for Lincoln, but it is still a long way off. The MKT could help sales as well, since it has real flash, but I have my doubts they will have it out by later this year. I hope I am wrong.

    Another problem is sales of current models. Lincoln sales were DOWN 17% comparing January 07 to January 08. Cadillac was up 8%. Mercedes was up 7%. Lincoln cannot do much to goose the Navigator or MKX soon, since both are relatively new models. The Town Car of course is a lost cause, except for fleet sales. The LT is no longer even on life support. So the S, and T are needed badly, if only to sustain sales at present levels as fewer Navs and MKXs are sold. The 415 hp S and the MKR could generate some real Lincoln excitement, but the competition is a moving target, and manufacturers like BMW and Audi already have far more new models in the pipeline. It will be interesting.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    Yeah, everything harkens back to history. We defeated Germany and Japan, bombing much of their industry back to the stone age, especially German. Then, within a decade, their industries were rebuilt and revived, in part with American money. So then the war losers were set up with brand new factories and the victor, America, was (and still is in some cases) building cars in factories built back in the early 1900s.
    As for Lincoln and Ford ... we all know where they're at right now and how important it is for them (and perhaps for the USA) that they are successful. If I may use GM as a model - as Douglas says, Ford was actually in a position to make a move on GM's sales leadership back in the mid-late 90s. Lincoln was selling more vehicles than Cadillac, the F150 was (and still is) THE sales leader, the Taurus had been the largest selling car for a decade etc. Then, Bob Lutz arrived at GM. One man's vision turned the whole place upside down. The CTS is COY this year and the Malibu is roundly praised by everyone - including Consumer Reports. They've got the Volt in the works, 1/2 dozen or more 'mild' hybrids, full hybrids in the works which are said to be years ahead of the Prius technology, a big SUV that can tow 6500 pounds and gets 21/21 for mileage, and of course the Corvette. Their mid size CUVs (Outlook, Acadia and Enclave) trump Ford's offerings (Edge, MKX) in almost every category. Etc etc. Recently I started back up my subscription to Consumer Reports. I found in a sense that the more things change, the more they remain the same. What changed is that CR this month is actually going Ga-Ga over GM's new cars. They love the CTS and are enraptured by the Malibu. In their tests, the CTS (in it's base form w/263hp) scores a third place finish out of 12 cars in its class finishing behind only the Infiniti G35 and the Acura TL. Lexus?BMW?Mercedes?Audi? All BEHIND the Cadillac. And this is CR. There was only one Ford product on the list of 12. And it wasn't a Lincoln. It was a Volvo S60 and it finished dead LAST. This may not bode well for the mks which is based on the S60s big brother the S80. We'll see.
    And the Malibu scored well too, finishing 4th in one and 5th in another category. (CR divides up based on base price. The 4cyl Malibu in the 20-25K range, the 6 in 25-30K ) In any case, the Malibu was judged to be nearly as good as the Accord, Camry and Altima. Though a Kia actually finished ahead of the 4cyl one as well. But CR was really enthused about both the Chevy and Caddy. One could almost see them puffing up and being proud to be American again. The last time they donned this attitude about American cars - you guessed it - 2000 when they called the Lincoln LS "The best American sedan we've ever tested." 8 years later and Lincoln NOTHING to even test in this category (sports sedans) and may never again.
    The news isn't ALL good for GM though. Looking at the list of family sedans, it's deja vu all over again. Even though the Malibu scored #4 and is 'close' to the top 3, the top 3 are all Asian makers and the bottom feeders are all American (Sebring, G6, Aura, Milan, Fusion etc) except for the Prius!. So after ALL these years have we *really* come very far? And the really troubling part of these lists is the frequency of repair record. The GM vehicles which've been out long enough to have a record all have BAD records. The G6 is apparently horrible, getting the worst rating - the dreaded big black dot. The Aura (sister to the Malibu) has a fair rating. Not good. The best is the Impala at good. Almost all the Asian cars have very good or excellent ratings. In the one single ray of hipe for Ford, the Fusion/Milan twins have either very good (6cyl) or excellent (4cyl) freq of repair records.
    So, to wrap this up, I see a lot of hope for GM, but ONLY if these well designed and put together vehicles they're now offering can compete in reliability ratings as well as the driving experience. If not, if we're going to be stuck with better looking and driving GM cars that still break down far too much, then what's the point? Ford, OTOH, has at least one line of cars that ain't so nice to drive, but keep running with the best. Neither American company hjas it ALL together and until and unless that happens, the death watch will continue.
  • Correct, Joe. GM has come a long way, and one of the reasons is that they are throwing lots of new products into the marketplace.

    Ford has fallen so far that they are banking on just a few new products. Certainly, Ford is paying attention to reliability and also trying new market segments. But bold, which Ford isn't--despite the lame bold moves ad hype--is what Ford needs most. Here's hoping that that the "just wait, it's around the corner" talk is real this time. No more "year of the car" crap, extolling the "bold" styling of the rather less bland (than the 500) Fusion, and blather about how the Five Hundred styling will stand the test of time better (who cares which old cars will look better when you are talking current sales?).
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Having to partially redo a recall can't help either. Some Town Cars are affected by the faulty replacement wiring harness that was supposed to fix the cruise control issue. (USA Today)
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...I was at the Philadelphia Auto Show this past Saturday and there wasn't even a Town Car present at the Lincoln-Mercury exhibit. It was as if they were ashamed of the car. The was a sole Mercury Grand Marquis parked inconspicuously off to the side. They had an MKS on display. Nice looking car, but the deck is way too stubby and I certainly hope the car isn't just V-6/FWD for Lincoln's sake. They'll be going down the same sad road as the Acura RL.

    The MKZ, (liked the Zephyr name so much better) is so close to being a nice car but it has a CHEAP prop rod for the hood and an ugly rear reminicent of a 1981 Thunderbird. Love the use of the light wood and lighter colors in the interior. The instrument panel reminds me a bit of the one in 1961-64 Continental.
  • They SHOULD be ashamed of the Town Car. When was the last time they updated anything on it? And a 4.6 engine with only 238 hp? Obviously, they aren't going to put one more dime in it.

    BTW, the MKS deck isn't really stubby. Both the front and rear overhangs are long, at least for the wheelbase length. The LS was over 10" shorter and that deck did not look as stubby. The problem is proportions. This a another tall car that is drawn to look shorter in length than it is. It's a tremendous improvement over the 500/Taurus look, but a false sort of "stubbiness" remains on what is really a large car. The Buick Lucerne also has a wheelbase that is too short for its length, but still manages to look less stubby than the MKS.

    I think perhaps after we look at the S awhile, its visual dimensions will grow. After all, that happened with the 1996 Taurus. I remember that Tom and Ray (Click and Clack on NPR) thought that the 96 Taurus looked smaller than the one it replaced--even though it was substantially larger. Now I can easily see that the 96-99 fish/salamander Taurus is bigger than what came before.
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    The MKZ, (liked the Zephyr name so much better) is so close to being a nice car but it has a CHEAP prop rod for the hood and an ugly rear reminicent of a 1981 Thunderbird.

    Yes, that's what those taillamps are from. I couldn't place them but they are just H-U-G-E on the back of that car. It just throws the whole thing off for me; kind of like the Aviator and its Nav taillamps. Just too darn big. And I agree on the hood prop; some nice gas struts should be used, not the prop rod. I mean, it may fly on my S10 (barely) but for a lux car, oh "H" no!!

    Heck, even my 89 W-body Cutlass Supreme has the gas-struts for the hood!!
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Heck, even gas struts are a cheap cop-out to a properly counter-balanced hood and spring-loaded hinges like almost all cars had back in the day, but I guess I'm asking for too much.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,500
    I think all MB cars still have a properly made hood without struts or the prop rod...at least all mine have.
  • carolinabobcarolinabob Member Posts: 576
    I am on the waiting list to test drive the MKS when it comes in. Sat in MKZ, CTS and DTS at auto show. Even after adjusting seats and steering coulumn, my knees bumped the door frame and dash getting in and out of CTS and DTS. Both felt very confining - and I'm 5'7" and 175#! Not impressed with the interiors either.
    As for Consumer Reports, be careful. They highly recommended the Hyundai Azera as comfortable as Lexus, et. al., more reliable than an Avalon and then within a year downgraded it to a much worse than average used car buy. They also failed to pick up on the serious suspension problems that other reviewers had noted.
    Use CR, but use at least five other reputable sources as well. As for the car mags, interesting reading but not really reliable on how well the car is made, how long it will last, how much repairs will cost and so forth. Also, some will not report on a car unless the manufacturer gives them up to 10 cars to use for a year free.
    The biggest concern I have with GM and Ford is reliability for the long haul. Also, GM's styling just not appeal to me. Of course, BMW, MB and Audi have even worse reliability, not to mention the repair costs.
    I agree with the thinking that if you are looking for a sport sedan, don't look at Lincoln and since I am not, I am happy with that.
    Perhaps it is time for Ford to cancel the Mercury and go to Ford-Lincoln dealerships. After all, Mercury was created to compete with DeSoto, Oldsmobile, and some other deceased lines.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Perhaps it is time for Ford to cancel the Mercury and go to Ford-Lincoln dealerships.

    They are already combining Ford and Lincoln/Mercury dealerships (at least 3 L/M dealers in Atlanta have merged with Ford dealerships in the last 2 years) - whether that's Ford influence or just market realities I'm not sure, but it's happening. And Mercury isn't getting new products right now (not even rebadges). It's not necessarily dead, but the focus is definitely on Lincoln right now which is where it should be especially with Jag and possibly Volvo gone.
  • Plymouth was designed to compete with Ford and Chevy. However, it went away not because its competition did, but because Chrysler starved it of new models. Ford is doing the same thing to Mercury. There could just as well be a business plan to save it (this division could many directions if given some attention), but it doesn't look like anyone is advocating for Mercury anymore.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I honestly don't think they've decided anything yet - they've just chosen to shove every available dollar into Ford and Lincoln first and also to see what happens with the dealer network.

    Did you see the Transit Connect van and the new F150 features announced at the Chicago Auto Show? That's where the Mercury money went.
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