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I really don't understand Toyota's philosophy here. They have already produced an EV that was probably the closest to being ready for prime time yet they seem to be one of the bigger nay sayers when it comes to their viability.
Anyway, this technology has been developed and PHEVs do exist. What's left to be done is make the technology affordable and bring it to the market.
Of course, I was think ALL aluminum....use of aluminum body panels was fairly common back then since it was so easy to fashion into shape. Steel-stamping processes were not well developed until the Budd Company perfected large-panel stampings for railroad cars in the 1930s.
But those aluminum panels are probably nailed to heavy wood framework all-round the car....like a framed house with siding.
ANYWAY---the recently marketed ZENN electric is restricted to 25 mph top speed.
He told the magazines that hybrid technology is too costly to use in small cars. A prototype of GM's E-Flex electric engine will be presented at the IAA car show in Frankfurt in September, he said, and series production is expected to start at the end of 2010. tf.TFN-Europe_newsdesk@thomson.com jsa
Yeah, GM should tell that to Toyota so that Toyota doesn't keep making all the mistakes that made it the global failure it is today.
In an interview with BusinessWeek on Feb. 16, Chief Executive Katsuaki Watanabe confirmed that Toyota's third-generation hybrid cars, due out in late 2008 or early 2009, will use lithium-ion batteries. Lighter and more powerful than the current nickel metal hydride packs, the new batteries will help make for more fuel-efficient hybrids. "We will change the battery from nickel hydride to the lithium battery," the CEO said during a rare one-on-one interview at the company's headquarters in Toyota City. Toyota officials say it's the first time Watanabe had confirmed the change of cells (see BusinessWeek.com, 2/22/07
I test drove it twice. The biggest selling point after the advertised mileage was the 8 year 100k mile bumper to bumper warranty. Toyota soon dropped that.
Woe be to the company that tells the Japanese that they can't do something.
What GM says makes no sense to me, except that it is typical of what GM always says---and GM is usually wrong.
If someone at GM doesn't think that small expensive economical cars don't sell, they should go to a MINI dealer and watch them fly out of the showroom doors.
Just because GM can't do something doesn't mean someone else can't pull it off.
Same old story:
"no profit in small cars" ( and then the Honda CVCC appears in 1973)
"americans won't buy convertibles" (and then the Miata appears in 1990)
"Mercedes owns the luxury market right now) (and then the Lexus appears in 1990)
"Nobody can build as good a pickup as we can" (and then the Titan appears)
"hybrid technology is too expensive" (and then the Prius appears)
GM has finally realized that they need to change their image, which will hopefully expand their customer base. This will take some time and/or a revolutionary product like the Volt.
I think the Big Three should have a new slogan:
"CAN'T DO!"
This seems to have been their war-cry the last 20 years. It's hard to believe sometimes that this is the country that built the Golden Gate Bridge in two years and a Liberty ship in 4 days.
Personally, I see the affordable plug-in hybrid as a vast new market with great profit potential. And I'm a "nobody" in the Big Three scheme of things. How come I know this and they don't?
Toyota is putting a HUGE investment into future hybrids. GM seems to be hedging a bet on the side for an EV and that seems to be it.
I just don't like the way this is shaping up. I got a bad feeling about it.
I know cost is relative based on one's station in life. When I was 20 years old, paying $27K for a car was unattainable.
But for most two-income families, how is $22K to $27K "too expensive?" The average US new car costs about $28K. Getting a Prius for 20% less than the average new car price seems pretty reasonable to me.
If hybrids are too expensive, why were June 2007 sales up 49% over June 2006 sales?
If GM can sell the Volt for anywhere near $28K, it will sell like hotcakes.
In addition, as you point out, if there is a GM label instead of Toyota the price is going to be lower.
Just because something works for Toyota does not mean it would work for GM.
I don't see why economy of scale can't bring the price of a hybrid within striking distance of say the compact market...between say $17K to $20K. You have to remember that the Prius right now is a fairly spacious, well-equipped car. There's a lot that can be trimmed.
The problem for Toyota is that a plug-in type hybrid (which gives you both an EV and a gas car) adds cost to a regular hybrid. On the upside, one could achieve the equivalent of 100 mpg at a cost of about $1 a gallon. That type of performance, if accurate, makes the selling price somewhat irrelevant, since you will save $1500 a year in fuel if you are currently driving a 25 mpg car.
So over the course of a 5 year car loan, that's $7,500...more than enough to justify paying say a $3,000 premium for a plug-in hybrid.
That's why the engineers have been tasked by Toyota management to cut 50% of the cost.
We'll see if they can do it.
But the fact remains that the cost which it costs is just what it costs right now with the technology that is available. If someone invents a better battery system which does a better job at lower cost, then that's great.
We are at the mercy of the battery technology right now.
So savings at 12,000 mi/yr is around $600. To me that might make it worth paying as much as, say, $3000 extra. However, I don't actually drive that many miles and tend to not like Toyotas. Then there is the whole hideous car issue .
Instead, for $16,000 I got a beautiful Mazda6 , saving $5000-6000 over what my brother-in-law paid for a Prius (in the most hideous light-greenish color). For the amount I drive, the savings will cover 100% of my fuel cost for 5-6 years.
MAZDA6 -- how did you get a Mazda6 for $16,000? That's $3,000 under invoice for the stripped model. Was it a used car? did you mean a Mazda3?
The only thing this dual drive system has going for it is that it is a little more efficient if you know that you will be using the ICE. For instance it is more efficient to drive the wheels directly than to drive a generator, which charges a battery, which provides power to an electric motor to drive the wheels. So if a particular driver knows that he will consistently be exceeding the vehicle's all electric range then Toyota's system would be more fuel efficient. If this driver feels that this will be a fairly rare occurence then the series approach like the Chevy Volt is more efficient and simpler.
I recently read that GM turned over a Volt-like platform for the A123 engineers to begin testing with their battery packs. GM states that they still plan on having a working prototype that will be similar to the production model by the end of the year. So things are definitely progressing.
The PHEV as promised is huge. 70% is a very conservative number. The 50 mpg alone would double most people's mileage...and the 40 electric miles gets you way up there. For me I would use 90% less fuel or better.
Hybrids-Plus www.hybrids-plus.com Boulder, CO offers lithium-ion conversions of the Toyota Prius and soon on the Escape, for private individuals or for organizations; current pricing starts at $24,000.
A converted Prius can't be any more of a safety hazard than a Harley Hog or a 1975 Cadillac. "Poor handling" is a driver problem, not a car problem IMO. Besides, that's all fixable with tires and springs/struts.
Yes that's proof of concept - the concept that zealous advocates will endure and ignore all manner of problems to "prove" their preconceptions (imaginations?)
It can't be that much. These conversions are only trying to achieve around 30 miles of all electric range. For a vehicle the size of a Prius that's probably about 7 kWh. Since you wouldn't want to fully deplete the battery let's bump that up to 12 kWh. The 27 kWh NiMH battery pack on the RAV4 EV weighed just over 900 lbs. The 50 kWh Li-ion battery pack on the Tesla Roadster also weighs about 900 lbs. It's not completely linear since there is packaging involved but I've got to believe this 12 kWh Li-ion conversion battery pack is in the 300 lb range. But keep in mind that they are pulling out the 100 lb NiMH battery pack that came with the Prius so the total net weight gain is probably in the neighborhood of ~200 lbs.
I do agree that for $12k this is ridiculous thing to do for any reason other than a science experiment.
I don't think that CalCars is actually promoting these conversions. They are promoting the technology and trying to get major manufacturers on board, which should significantly reduce the price.
The Rav4 was full charge to full discharge IIRC.
PS
I think CalCars is kind of on hold. I did not see any new info on their site. Every one is waiting for a battery break through, you and I included.
It's not as important with Li-ion batteries to be maintained within a tight range in terms of level of charge. I've never seen any instructions on my laptops regarding whether you should avoid keeping them plugged in or avoid letting them become completely discharged. Li-ion's weakness is in calendar life and potential instability.
I believe the NiMH battery pack in the Prius can store 1.8 kWh and weighs 115 lbs. If it was allowed to go from full charge to full discharge that would provide around 7 miles all electric driving. Since Toyota limits the level of charge you can't go nearly that far.
I seriously doubt that there are a lot of individuals making this conversion. I have heard that NYC is or maybe already has started converting some vehicles for city and taxi use. I also know that they fielded an experimental fleet of EV (Li-ion) converted PT Cruisers. Unfortunately this experiment didn't go too well and they've already "pulled the plug" on it.
70 mile range
0-60 in 19.8 seconds
Full charge costs about $2 of electricity.
That would seem to be a perfect "first car" for a teenage boy:
1. Safer for teens because it only seats 2 people. (data indicates that teens with three or more passengers in the car have far more accidents and higher death rates).
2. Slow "get up and go" means he won't be burning rubber around town.
3. Economical so that the little fellow does not spend a lot of money on "fuel."
Looks like a possible winner if the price is low enough and warranty is good enough.
I agree with the teenagers being prime candidates. Both boys and girls.
But for a city kid just learning to drive and driving big city streets from home to school to the Mall, etc?
Completely sufficent.
In the rrban/suburban areas with which I've familiar, he'd either be run over by the traffic that he pulled into or be attacked by a justifyably angry mob of outraged drivers behind him.
I agree. While there's a place for this type of vehicle, IMO, it just reinforces the public perception that EVs are performance challenged, i.e. glorified golf carts. The reality is that just isn't true. For a given size and weight the electric motor can produce far more hp/torque. The Tesla Roadster's motor weighs 70 lbs and is the size of an average watermelon.
I am talking about a 17-yr-old driver driving on CITY streets (no freeways) to and from School Home Work TheMall Friends houses and not merging onto Major Freeways.
Just because a car is going slower than you are is no reason to get "justifiably outraged."
Ditto a SMART car. That turkey has lost money everywhere in the world.
There is no reason a PHEV has to be incompetent or clumsy.
My two cents is that we have to look at PHEVs as a world market potential, not to be America-centric about it. In the UK it costs $81 to fill up a honda civic, and in China pollution is so bad they have a "building index", which tells you how many buildings you can see in front of you before the smog obliterates them.
So the global need for PHEVs will be great I think, even if America doesn't "get" it or won't develop the technology. Someone else will, just like always, when it comes to automobiles. The USA hasn't been a leader in automotive tech for some time now, probably not since the 1950s. (not that they haven't pulled off the occasional nifty hat-trick).
I personally believe that they must have some very talented people on their payrolls. I also believe that their misdeeds of the past are somewhat based upon what they thought they could get away with. That's just business and more a reflection of the incestuous relationship big business has with our government. On top of that the UAW's extortionist tactics have basically buried them for the foreseeable future.
If GM can survive it will be comparable to pulling a rabbit out of the hat. That rabbit may be the Chevy Volt.
As far as the Smart car, all I have read and seen indicates it is a big sales success in Canada. We don't have a decent Smart model in the USA. Only that kluged up gas version that gets no better mileage than a Civic. The only figure I can find says they have sold 750,000 Smart cars in 8 years. I believe that rivals the Prius that has been on the World market for 10 years.
I think the PHEV has a good future is what I was saying...Europeans love diesel because of the price of diesel fuel....if you could offer them the same car as a PHEV, I think they'd be tempted. True the PHEV might not be a diesel but at 100 mpg, who cares. European cities are so well suited to EVs going 35 mph and squeezing through narrow streets quietly. I think PHEVs are a natural for most of Europe (but not everywhere).
Not denegrating American "talent", only American decisions in automaking. If the suggestion is that American automakers chose quick profit over longterm planning, I couldn't agree more.
All the innovations (well almost all...95% of them) we enjoy today in automobiles reached production first in Europe or Japan, not here. American automakers are the least motivated to innovate and have been for decades. Were it not for foreign competition, we'd still be driving clumsy, 12 mpg carburated cars with slushy automatics or 4-speeds out of trucks....really.....American car industry is fast becoming second-rate, and I think deep down we all know that.
Can it turn around? Sure, but don't hold your breath!
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