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Oh man that's EXACTLY how I feel about all of the current hybrids. Today's hybrids could end up reselling like an Oldsmobile Diesel in 5 years the way technology is advancing. Hybrids are in their infancy - not interested in taking that chance for the $200 in gas I'm going to save each year.
You're not kidding. Every few weeks I read about another incredible advancement... and they are actually planning on bringing some of them to market within just a couple or few years from now.
BlueTech diesel, I'd be OK with, but no way a hybrid right at this point in time... particularly a hybrid with a freakin price tag near $100,000 bucks, or even more!
Truth is, nvbanker, when the LS600hL was first announced, I was in awe of the idea of it, but now logic has settled in and I know better.
I know that you've been around the block many times for many years. You know a risk when you see one.
TagMan
The risk is in utilizing a technology that is undergoing rapid evolution. Most cars, for years, would have small enhancements to style and features, and certainly engine refinements, but nothing in history has ever been like this situation with the powertrain innovations.
Like the computers, the early ones were terrific and expensive, but it took hardly any time at all to make every one of us realize with wide eyes that we had paid so much for so little (little by comparison to the new and improved).
Same is true, although to a lesser extent, with flat-screen TVs. First ones were big bucks. And now they are commonplace and, more importantly, they are much improved. I wouldn't want an older one. And I wouldn't want an older computer. I wouldn't want an early Prius, and I wouldn't want the first LS600hL. If you are willing to be objective here, you will see the truth in every word I have said here.
Even Toyota ifself has just announced that they are going to bring even much newer powertrain technologies to market very soon. From the sounds of it, the current models will seem obsolete by comparison.
Just thought you should know, lj. Good luck.
TagMan
In this case, the risk is more pronounced. The vehicle, on average, will likely be leased for a 5-year period. This means that the confrontation between old and upcoming new is guaranteed in 5, or so, years... and unlike most typical cases in history, this one is high risk and runs the probability that the difference between what is now and what will be in 5 years will be as different as night and day... not just the slightly better model we usually see... and the dollar amount is significant, well beyond average car. Is there always risk of change? Yes, just as you suggest. Is the risk higher in this case? Much higher.
Different situation.
And... in this situation, with the availability of the much less-risky LS460L (loaded), there is no need to miss those enjoyable experiences you refer to before the arrival of the Grim Reaper!
Only on rare occassions do we get an extra-focused good look into a situation like this... this is one of them.
Just thought I'd let lj know.
TagMan
I am a simple man with a simple mind. :shades:
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Oh, I wouldn't be trying to warn lj if I didn't really believe this.
He continues to look at this as though the technology doesn't matter, saying "it's just a car". Usually true, but NOT in this case, as we are talking about the powertrain itself, and its technology.
Further, the usual idea of comparing a 5-year old car to other 5-year old cars is not as entirely true in this case either. This car breaks many of the usual rules right out of the gate, and will continue to do so even later. Unfortunately, in 5 years when this car is viewed in comparison to other cars, this car will have to also compare itself to NEW cars that will offer newer, better, more efficient, powertrains at a better price point.
Tony, this will be due to the inherent nature of technology... it continually improves and gets much cheaper to build. This will force down the value of the older powertrain technology even further, because a NEW model will be a better bargain.
Anyway, enough on this. Lj is big enough to make his own decisions and take his own chances. It is just not a chance I would take at this point in time. Two or three years is risky enough. Five years? No freakin' way!
TagMan
I thank Designman for bringing this to my attention.
The points I have made about the car are not in any way different... but the risk associated with aquiring it are likely minimized with a lease that carries a helpful residual.
Thanks again, d-man. Lj... I assume you would lease?
TagMan
I was talking to the Lexus dealer the other day and the LS600HL may not arrive until June. My lease is up at the end of March so if that's the case I'd go with an LS460L instead. I may have to deposit this car within 30 days or lose my reserved March spot. The car is that hot over here.
Nice vehicle, but do drive it so that you will realize there are major blind spots... mostly right-rear and lower-rear. OK for the son and wife?
TagMan
Blue, of course. But I will drive it a few times more and thanks for that heads-up. I missed them the first time partially because it felt so different driving something like that. My son of course likes it but wants a 3-series or IS as first choice.
BTW - In the middle of a major business deal for myself and partners. I wish this risk was as minor as anything you find in an LS600HL or any car for that matter. But if we pull it off - and I think we will - then I'm going to have a lot of fun in business next year. Hope your enjoying the bull run we both foresaw. I think next year is another 15-20% bull run in the market.
Blue is the right color indeed.
Yes, it's been a good year and am hoping next year is as you say. I believe two years preceeding a Presidential election should be good.
Good luck with your business deal... sounds exciting... somehow I just know it will be successful.
BTW, if you should somehow end up in a fully-loaded LS460L, I'll secretly be glad for you.
TagMan
I agree, I don't care for any hybrid either, but it's not about new vs. old or fuddy or duddy. It's about return on investment - they cost too much for what you get, and they are still too new to rate.
For sure, if you're enamored with a hybrid, fine, but lease it.
I have the 460L w/Touring and the only question for me will be whether the 600Lh enhancements over the 460L will be enough to justify the price difference. I am absolutely sure that the performance will be even greater but will the overall package exceed the wonderful 460L sufficiently to warrant the extra $$?
Lots of buttons... a little confusing at first!
LS Test Drive Video/Photos and more
http://reviews.cnet.com:80/2007_Lexus_LS_460L/4505-10865_7-32172595.html?tag=nl.- e501
I live in the Los Angeles area, and calling around to 6-8 dealerships could only find 1 vehicle with the touring package. When I went to see it discovered they had tacked on a $10K premium to the MSRP and wanted to nick me $5k more than other dealers for an '06 LS w/<3k miles. Looking at AUTONATION dealers website (they offer an opportunity to examine dealer inventory)...handy to blunt salesman BS. Surprised to see that a Florida dealership has 2 or 3 LS 460L with air suspension w/o touring package, MSRP in the low 80s'
You: a few questions re the LS:
Vaughn Wendelstadt: What are your questions?
You: 1. When will the 460/460L be available with AWD?
You: 2. What will the trunk space be on the 600hL, without rear seat upgrades?
Vaughn Wendelstadt: There has been some interest in LS 460 vehicles being offered with AWD. At this time we do not have any information about AWD being offered for the LS 460.
Vaughn Wendelstadt: For question 2, the latest information we currently have about the LS 600h can be found on the Lexus.com web site. I apologize that the trunk space for the LS 600h is not currently available.
You: 3. Automotive News said that a JX would be introduced in mid-2007....a GS-based crossover, like a "big brother" to the RX. Is that accurate?
You: 4. When might we see hybrid versions of SUVs other than the RX?
Vaughn Wendelstadt: We have been making the product planning department aware of the interest for LS 460 with AWD. There is one of the concept vehicles that will be introduced. Again, the latest information is on the web site.
You: 5. Does the Touring Package on the LS include any changes other than wheel size and brakes? For instance, are there any changes to the suspension?
Vaughn Wendelstadt: Lexus is committed to hybrid technology. It is likely there will be other SUV's offered in the hybrid. We do not have any timeframe when this may happen.
Vaughn Wendelstadt: The touring package does come with a different suspension system.
You: How does that suspension differ? Are you aware of any reviews of the Touring version, that you can direct me to?
Vaughn Wendelstadt: Good question! Please hold while I locate that information.
Vaughn Wendelstadt: The suspension provides tighter steering and more of a feel of the road. You may wish to check Edmonds at the link I have included for some better information about product reviews.
***** URL Received: http://www.edmunds.com
You: I want to throw in my 2 cents for the benefit of your product planning people: if I can't buy an LS460/460L by the fall of 2007 in AWD form, I may buy an MB S550 AWD or an Audi A8L. Please get moving, Lexus!
Vaughn Wendelstadt: It is through communications such as yours that we become aware of the reactions and expectations of our customers. We really appreciate your feedback!
You: Thank you for your help.
I made the mistake of driving an $85K 460L having air suspension and variable ratio steering and was impressed it is (perhaps) an even better car than I currently drive. But is it??? For example, how much quieter can the 460 be?
For years the 430 was at the top of everybodys' quality list, it was comfortable, etc. etc. But is the 460 (w/air suspension) $45-$50K better than what I am driving? This is where I would like feedback from drivers who have owned both models to help with my dilemma. I do not hotdog a car, so whether it achieves 0-60 in 5.? sec is not that important to me. Living in Southern California, AWD would probably be a total waste. As stated in an earlier post, I am not impressed the leg room in the back seat of the new model (even for the 460L) is that much of an improvement over the 430, and having to accept park-o-matic, Lexus link (I hated OnStar), and other unused features to get delivery may be a stretch, especially if I am disappointed with other attributes of the new design such as reliability, comfort, etc. One complaint I have with the 430 is cramped driver knee space near the door, and this apparently still exists with the 460.
However, there was something about the 460 which was very impressive for a short drive, and hope there is somebody out there, having owned/driven both models, can comment.
That forum doesn't show up to the left under Browse By Vehicle/Lexus/Select Model....even though the IS-F and LF-A do.
Edmunds, not the Forums/CarSpace, controls what shows up in those drop downs. A future vehicle usually is closer to release when they add a category for it, at least that's what I have observed.
You could always use the keyword search, but that wouldn't have helped jd14 since he didn't remember the name.
The Touring package, with the adjustable air suspension, 19" wheels/tires, larger brakes, etc. provides the flexiblity of going with the cushy, luxury ride but then opt for the more sport mode when the driving conditions and one's spirit warrant. My default setting is however sport/power for the custom settings and then go with the softer settings for speed bumps or for straight freeway driving. Touring is of benefit though in quick lane changes and the like and minimizes any body roll in such quick moves, which is why I leave it in sport mode by default.
That is exactly also what I would like to know. For example, on my last service they gave me an 07 ES350 loaner, and it had the push button start/stop, which I liked. I think I would also like the push button parking brake. But aren't there some other goodies that only a new owner would really appreciate? So far no answers. Maybe you should repost your question in the LS460 group.
As stated earlier, I own an '06 LS 430 (~$65K MSRP) with the sport suspension. Asking around the Los Angeles area in a "what-if" manner, I would need to add an additional $45-$50K to trade up to a 460 with air suspension, hopefully one having the touring package. One dealer made a firm offer on a car with the touring package for a difference of $61K, and seemed disappointed I did not accept. However, to be fair, $8-$9K of the purchase price represent sales tax and license fees for which the dealer has no control.
My conclusion is that even with all of the gee-whiz features in the new design there is no rational which would indicate the 460 is that superior to its' predecessor for that price difference. Also, to respectively argue with Lexus marketing types, I feel the SWB model will NOT prove to be their big seller; I also wonder how long the executive package will be offered. An interesting dichodemy.
Those who are in a "must-have-one" frame-of-mind must be leasors rather than buyers, and only considering their lease payments increase a few hundred over what they are paying now. Loading the vehicle with Lexus Link (ugh!), radar cruise control, etc. makes the thought even less appealing.
Just some random thoughts from the geezer community...I would love to hear other thoughts about the economics of replacing a recent 430 model with a 460.
MERRY CHRISTMAS!!
You did not specify if you were looking at a long wheel base so I assume the "deal" you were offered was a SWB. Could you please share a few more of the details as this seems to be a very poor deal to me. For instance:
1. List price (no taxes plese) of the new LS.
2. Actual trade-in value of the 06 being offered to you.
I would think that your car would still be worth around $50K. That would mean the new one is around $110K? This seems crazy high to me. Thanks for the details in advance.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I was so annoyed after the bait-and-switch I did not bother driving the car. It did not have the upgrade (analine?) leather, and the interior appearance was no better than my '06. A personal choice, but I prefer the maple wood from '06 to the walnut being offered in 2007. My 430 has less than 2.8K miles with sport suspension, satellite radio, NAV, Levinson, and chromed wheels. There is not a blemish anyplace on the automobile. They generously offered $39K as a trade-in.
Had they said upfront they are putting a $10K premium on the MSRP because is is a scarce vehicle I could respect that explanation rather than the BS about chromed wheels costing $4k. I know this sounds nit-picky for a car in this price range but I do not like being played for a fool, which is the wrong strategy for Lexus dealers when trying to convince buyers interested in new 460 series.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
1. Dealers in SoCal have NO cars to test drive - the few they get are pre sold. I won't buy any car without a decent test drive. Big demand for these cars or intentional effort by Lexus keep prices up or both?
2. My 2001 has 65K miles and I'll be darned but it drives and looks like a new car and never has had a problem. I love driving it. No one has ever complained about it's comfort or leg room.
3. The new LS 460 size has grown in width, lower in height, much heavier, and it's tad longer in length. All in small increments but still negatives to me. I can't ever remember ever needing more speed than my 430 has.
4. All the extra electronics really won't make driving more comfortable to me. Example: I need a self parking option like a hole in my head.
Yet, price isn't an issue for me and I like new pretty fancy things ... but does it make any sense to jump to a 460 when I'm very happy with my "old" 430? My friends think I will jump but only based on satisfying my ego. Oh gee, life is full of these type issues and I wish I knew the right decision. HELP!! (BTW happy Xmas and New Year to all)